Shri Tamana's page

Such a tease! I would totally buy this. All things goblin! Someone needs to make something like this happen.

See Pathfinder 2E playtest. Goblins are a core race. Don't know if it'll make it through the playtest. There is a lot of hate for goblin PCs as core, even after the explanation came out.

Kat's Eye is banned for piddling outside the litter box.

I'd say stay away from any items that require a save. Paladins are notorious for awesome saves - particularly will saves.

also, it's not metagaming if you, the cleric, and the party are surrounded by evil baddies and let off a holy smite. I know that the cleric in one game I'm in (LN - the whole party is N for good-evil) tells us chaotic people to back off 'cause he's going to let loose an order's wrath. Considering we haven't been hurt by chaos hammer, and all of us were hurt by both holy smite and unholy blight at some point, its not metagaming.

We were/are 10-14 lvl.

I really don't want to think about going further than implied "I sleep in your tent tonight" or "I flirt with you."

Our second darkness group is comfortable with sex in general, going TMI for my taste sometimes, but most of the other groups I've played in would be incredibly uncomfortable.

You really have to judge the people you are playing with. If sex and fetishes is a topic out of game, it's probably o.k. in game. If you don't even know if the other players have a girlfriend, then it's probably best to keep sex out of the game.

I did want to say, except for the bugbear and mammy scenes in Runelords, our games have stayed PG-13.

I would be incredibly uncomfortable with R or NC17 with anyone but my boyfriend, who is most often my DM. (Though I DM him in Council of Thieves)

We joke a lot about some women Valeros slept is actually Niska Mvasti in disguise, but beside that its only the campaing background. We know the characters are doing those things in their free time, but only talk about it when it have relevancy to the story.

That's how it is usually in our games. We don't do "talk sexy" to other players.

If I hit on another player (who I am comfortable with and know won't freak out), I'll pass a note saying "Shri hits on you and flaunts seductively, how do you react?" The response may be "upstairs?" or "acts uncomfortable," the last particularly if flirting with the paladin, and that's it.

wow, quitting the AP as a result of an icky sexual encounter. A bit drastic, isn't it?

I'm not playing curse of the crimson throne, but that looked like a spoiler to me... maybe it's fairly obvious, but...

I had a similar moment of calling it in "memory of darkness" in Second Darkness

Most of sexual encounters is implied, even in notes.

as for character development, there is only so much drow sadism one calistrian can handle. She's had (non-magical) nightmares since.

The worst sexual scenes I've come across while gaming were actually written in the Rise of the Runelords modules themselves:

having a enchantment focused sorcerer/cleric of Calistria in our Second Darkness game, many times sex came up - particularly later in the game...along with drugs. She's slept with two members of the party.

spoiler is if you aren't playing or haven't yet played PF #16, Endless Night.

even later in the AP, I think the end of #17, a memory of darkness. It's a spoiler if you haven't gone through the encounter with the winter council:

I don't think rape has ever came up, though.

Also, playing this character has gotten on my nerves a bit. I'm trying to get the rest of the party on par with my character development and get past the sex part. Being men, it's hard for them. It was fun while it lasted, but Calistria is not just about sex.

meatrace wrote:

I think it would be cool if they had GenCon in my neck of the woods. Maybe Milwaukee? Oh shucks that'll never happen!

I wish it was in Milwaukee. As someone who grew up there, I have a lot of friends and family that still reside in and around town. And I miss the Safe House, Usinger's, Koppas, Kopps, Sprecher, and blue moon ice cream.

Ah well...

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing

mmmm...blue moon ice cream.... it's been so long since I moved to Texas from Milwuakee.

Why doesn't someone (ie you) start a thread that lists all of the differences, one at a time - and make a rule not to replicate. The posts could start out with either "Old Rule/New Rule" or "Rule Edit: --which post you're editing--"

I'm hardly ever on here, but I know my guy would love to spend every second after he reads the entire thing contributing to that. :)

Horn of Rioting (construct peasants with pitchforks)

no order:

gulga cench, scion of cyth-v'sug
bracht darkhouse, the flesh peddler
sharina legendsinger
volner tain, the trice damned disciple

I also wonder what sorcerer would wear armor.

Pathfinder Beta feats:

Just because sorcerers traditionally don't wear armor doesn't mean they don't under Pathfinder RPG.

Why craft jewelry as a prereq? I don't see any other wonderous items requiring craft jewelry.

My character would use suggestion to get someone to eat something with the bug in it, especially if they didn't know it was "poisoned." I'd prefer it as the amulet, but at higher levels it makes an awesome poison.

UGH! Fleshing eating cockroach swarms!!!!

I have a question...

How long ago these undead tracks have to be made? There has been an undead creature here in the last day, or last century? This would make Castle Ravenloft very pretty place...

I'd assume that the illumination would be relative to how long it had been since the presence of undead, given the blinding light if one is currently present. Also, it gives a bonus to tracking, so the time would probably follow the normal minuses to tracking under the survival skill chart. (neg to survival for so many hours, days, so on)

I noticed a problem with pricing because of the format. Since it is after the prerequisite of Craft Wonderous Item, should the 12,500 gp be the crafting cost? However, since there is only one price, perhaps it should be the final cost, and the crafting would be the usual 1/2 price, 6,250 gp.

I like the concept of creating a dread companion. In order to make this a wonderous item instead of a component for a spell ritual, perhaps the ranger/druid must wear the tricket or the bond is broken. This could result in the final death of the animal, or it could turn against its master. I also think that it is way too cheap and should be a one-use item, in that only one dread companion can be made. It would be nice for the item itself to add a bonus or two (maybe a bonus necro spell slot?) for the ranger/druid. I also agree with Charles in that knowledge arcana or religion ranks should be a prerequisite. Good luck! I'll be watching for the villian concept.

What ends up in an article really depends on length. A pr-class takes up a lot of space, and given that Calistria has three different aspects and three different branches of the church, I felt it was more important to describe all of that than to put in a prestige class that might only serve one or two aspects of her faith.

So ... punish me. Tell me I'm a bad, bad boy.

Yes, you are a bad, bad boy. Now where is my new +1 whip? (second darkness: children of the void) You will take the metal tip for lethal damage until a prestige class is written!

~Shri Tamana Sadgati, sorcerer enchantress & cleric of Calistria

Xaaon of Xen'Drik wrote:

[Q

Why are greatswords silly? Generally weapons were designed to counteract a defense of an enemy. Greatswords and Axes were designed as anti-horse weapons, they could be used by footmen to gain reach against a mounted opponent or to chop the legs of the horse off.

Your reference to woods is not really relevant, as that would only be with a ranger with favored terrain of woods. If you have an Osirion Ranger, he might have Dungeon and Desert as his favored terrains, never having have set foot in a forest before in his life. He might use a Falchion as his main two-handed weapon, or he might even want horseman or mobility.

I really like these extra fighting styles, and if they don't make it into the main...

Right, I think of rangers as a terrain-based warrior. What you referenced is open battlefield, which is the fighter's area. Isn't it a lot harder to sneak through forests and deserts with a 5-foot long sword across your back than a bow or a couple of daggers?

You're right, my example was limited. I was thinking more of the classic 'forest' ranger, and not all of the other possibilities. However, even then, isn't a falchion more of a fighter weapon, due to it's limited uses and utilities?

I'm just worried that too many fighting styles will cause the ranger to sort of become the fighter. At what point do we just give up the idea of style, and give them fighter bonus feats?

My ranger is from the Storval Plateau, with favored terrain Plains. She has the bonus feat Big Game Hunter from the Rise of the Runelords adventure path. Her two-handed style is used for polearms that have reach and are reminiscent of the classic primitive tribe hunting a mammoth. The ranger class is to create a hunter. The official archery and two-weapon styles are short-sighted and limit the possibilities of expanding upon the unique races and locales of Golarion.

I've been playing a Shoanti Ranger (7th level) in the Runelords game with something similar to the two-handed combat. She uses mainly polearms such as the ranseur and glaive. For my combat style feats I worked with my DM and picked power attack and overhand chop. I plan on taking all of the feats mentioned except for razor sharp chair leg, 'cause it doesn't make much sense for her.

I like the horsemanship style for the Tamiir Quah, but I don't see how the arcane style works for a ranger.

I agree! I want an elven fighter on a PURPLE t-shirt!

I want ANYTHING on a purple shirt! Go PURPLE!!!

hmm... only the goblins one sparks my interest; my boyfriend is crazy about that song and would love the shirt...if it said "we be goblins, you be food," I'd likely buy it for him... if he hadn't already ordered it! (so I didn't vote)

as for me, I'd like t-shirts with the elaborate pictures in the new modules and the RPG, or different iconic characters. *no offense to anyone*, but the fighters are kinda boring to look at

You have such wonderful artwork, but pathfinder's shirts are lacking, comparatively to the competition. If you don't want to have too elaborate shirts, then get some iconic sayings on there - modules, whatever.

as for colors: no white! black: ok , colors that look good with the picture: good!

For those that already got their product, how good are the pictures of the young planar dragons? And for the four horsemen steeds? Thanks for the reply!

The horses are alright. The Pale Horse is definitely the best one.

The young dragons are cool. Three of them are downright cute, which I think is great for a young dragon. Infernal, Paradise, and Rift look like children. Big, scary, winged children, mind you, but the artist(s) captured "young" dragon very well.

I did one reading for the whole party. To make it run smoothly I did the harrowing ahead of time, subbed in any cards I thought were thematically appropriate, and then stacked the deck. This way I had a prepared reading and it didn't take forever to muddle through card meanings and what they might all mean (which is exactly what happened the first time I did it--lesson learned, that was a terrible half hour of gaming.

I remember one of Lem's jokes: What's the difference between a dwarf and a bag of otyugh puke?

THE BAG!!!! HAHAHAHAHAHA

I have a feeling this is never going to happen, and, in my opinion, Curse of the Crimson Throne doesn't really need it. If they are going to re-release an Adventure Path, I'd much rather it be one that seriously needs a revisit. Second Darkness would be my vote. That AP screams of unfulfilled potential. I can't know this, but I'd bet that is one Mr Jacobs would love a second shot at (no pun intended)--especially considering how much he likes his elves.

All of that said, there are some changes I would like to see for the sake of future GMs (I've resolved these my own way the times I've run it, and I need to find a whole new gaming group for a chance to run it yet again). As usual, I only speak in giant text blocks! The changes I would like to see are:

--Expand the "prologue" part of Book 1. I already recommend this to every person that comes on these boards asking what they should do when they run this game. The party needs a chance to "meet" Eodred's Korvosa.

--Clean up Book 3. Seriously, I love me some Arkonas, and I've had an absolute BLAST running this module, but I feel as though it is in SPITE of the book itself. The whole Emperor of Old Korvosa part is not organized very well. Unless your entire party is constituted of sneaky gits or masters of disguise, and they can bestow all of that to Laori, there is only one way to get to the Emperor. I admit, it has been a few years since I read it, but I remember a lot of space dedicated to how they get to Pilts. May as well save some time and write up every location as if the place is on full alert, because that is almost certainly going to be the outcome. Additionally, the entire Palace Arkona is tediously mapped out and then populated by challenges that should be VERY difficult for a party of appropriate level when taken as a whole. I suppose in 3.5 they give you the silver bullet in Glorio's vault (if you can get there first and know enough about my favorite fiend), but that rule didn't make it to PFRPG. I'm completely fine with leaving Glorio around for Book 6 myself, but when you do the party isn't getting enough loot to keep up with WBL. I don't want to sound all negative here, so let me add in that the Vivified Labyrinth is fantastic, and maybe a sidebar on how to run this somewhat complicated area at the table would be welcome. They can copy/paste my post on it. I'm not trying to brag or anything, but kinda...

--Rewrite Book 4. As a Shaonti sourcebook, it is an overwhelming success. As an adventure, it is not so much. The mega-railroad was so bad they added a sidebar in the original printing (at least, I think I remember that). The Sial intro is also weak, and it does not set up a future alliance very well. As written Cinnabar (sp?) has as much impact on the story as Darth Maul in Star Wars--show up for a fight and die. At least the book gives the GM tools to foreshadow the Cinderlander, or else that would be yet another Paizo character that gets a thousand words of background that the characters will never know or care anything about. I think this book is salvageable, but it requires a lot of massaging to make it work. I have heavily converted this book in my games, while attempting to keep the spirit of it intact... which has resulted in all of Book 4 being converted into half of an adventure and the journey to get to it taking greater prominence as the first half.

--Expand the Rebellion. Book 6 dedicated a lot of print to Castle Korvosa, and, while it is a very neat location, the cost of that was a very condensed set of encounters that involve the PCs breaking the chains of Ileosa's rule. The Grey Maiden prisoners get saved off screen? The blooding is a footnote? Old Korvosa is still quarantined and NOBODY CARES? I realize that last one is dependent upon the PCs' actions in Book 3, so the little sidebar they give us is understandable.

As for what NPC ends up as what class? I'm not that picky. There's a couple obvious ones like Vencarlo the Swashbuckler, Devaulus the Alchemist, and Cinderlander the Hunter, but, ultimately, these sort of things don't impact the story or its telling that much. All I ask is that they don't give seemingly every villain levels of Monk and/or Rogue... or at least don't consider that the same CR adjustment as some other classes with abilities that really show up in a 4 round bout.

Just a few thoughts.

b) Once they connect with an NPC or two kill them off (7-days is a great way to knock off NPC or PC family members / friends) or injure them in someway. This serves two purposes. First, it endears them to the city and her citizens and second furthers their dislike for the villain.

I am just going to remind you to be cautious with this tactic, as the end result of every NPC the party gets attached to being killed is a party that doesn't attach themselves to NPCs.

You really don't need the party to LOVE any of the NPCs, so much as you need them to be acquainted with them. Random dude getting caught up in the riots and killed is one thing. When it's the nice lady that lives two doors down from you? Maybe you only talk to that person once in awhile, but the event hits closer to home, as it were. You can also pull on the usual heartstrings and make the elderly or children suffer--it usually doesn't matter if the characters know them in this case. Murdered dogs can also provoke a pretty strong response, and I used that in book 3 as a cheap trick to help the party hate the Emperor of Old Korvosa... and Laori.

Most of the examples listed in my previous post were delivered by NPCs that the party was aware of, but had not built strong relationships with. The baker showering them with muffins had never even met them, but the PCs had a huge impact on his life and he needed to thank them. That two sentence encounter not only celebrated the party's accomplishment, it also reminded them that their actions in Korvosa affect many, many people. This is just one way that quick and dirty NPC acquaintances can be used to create the backdrop of your story.

I should have mentioned before that you can get the same storytelling advantages by killing off NPCs that the party doesn't particularly like. That weaponsmith that overcharged the group because of the Shaonti PC getting killed by the plague still hammers the point home that people the characters know are dying around them. It also conveys the "state of the city" just as well as killing off NPCs that the party really likes. It also shows the players that no NPC is safe, and that you as the GM aren't "picking on" the ones they like.

Anyway, if a group is really attached to a NPC, think carefully before you kill them off. You only get to play that poker chip once, so make it worth it. I'm not advocating that you should never kill off an NPC that the party really likes, of course. I just believe that you should have a strong story reason to do so before you pull the trigger. Your players care about that NPC--don't waste that story element.

Hope that inspires!

Well, I agree with the other posters here, but I also disagree to an extent. I will always agree that a player has to bring their own motivation, and that a player is responsible for assisting the development of any story, I also strongly believe that a GM has to make those tasks easy (and entertaining) for them. A good group will helpfully latch on to your hooks because they know it is in everyone's best interest, but as the GM you owe them good hooks.

This does not obviate the great advice given by others this post, and I highly recommend that you take it. I believe, however, that putting it all on the players is a little unfair--especially if you don't get the results you are hoping for and cast blame upon them. Basically, don't stop there.

My best advice for this AP has been, and always will be, to expand the intro. Take a little time adventuring in King Eodred's Korvosa. Establish as many NPC relationships as you can, and then exploit them like crazy to give the party news and rumors--but, most importantly, to convey the plight of the common Korvosan. It may be obvious to you that Korvosa needs heroes, but sometimes the heroes need to be reminded.

As an example, I expanded Lamm's organization and had the PCs taking it down piece by piece, focusing a lot on the shiver dealing the book suggests he's involved in. This gave the party almost two weeks of game time to "meet" Korvosa and allowed me to casually introduce lots of NPCs. The Old Fishery was a bit anti-climactic after a fight against alchemists in a shiver lab with only thin glass separating everyone from hundreds of dream spiders, but Gaedren is out of his prime anyway.

All of those NPCs (neighbors, shopkeepers, etc.) were a multitude of storytelling outlets. A few sentences can say a lot:

--A barmaid proudly telling the party it's her last night before she joins the Grey Maidens (late book one or early book 2)

--The keeper of a shop the party frequents bemoaning the loss of his wife to plague (book 2).

--A baker showering thanks and muffins on the characters for saving his children from the plague. (early book 3)

--A child, scared and alone, because his parents were taken away for resisting the Blooding (book 6).

--A mother, heartbroken since her daughter was "conscripted" for the Grey Maidens (book 6).

Of course, an NPC can do more than talk! Once you have a bunch of NPC acquaintances, the storytelling opportunities are endless:

--Have a few die in the plague.

--Have a few survive the plague because of the PCs.

--Have a few lose loved ones that the PCs have never met in the plague. It still counts because they will share their favorite bartender's pain.

--Have some be injured/killed/lose property during the riots.

--Have some be saved by the PCs during the riots.

--Have the super-grateful, unluckiest one that had to be saved in the riots, and then had to be saved from the plague, and then had to be saved from the Emperor of Old Korvosa turn out to have been killed by Grey Maidens while the group was romping around the Cinderlands and too far away to bail their friend out one last time.

You get the idea. These incidents can still help drive home the evil of Ileosa in a vacuum, but if they come from NPCs that the characters are familiar with, it will build attachment and motivation (beyond XP and loot). A city is a place where lots of people live. Make Korvosa a place where a lot of people the PCs know live, and heroes will rise to save them.

Hope that inspires!

Well, I'm not THAT up on Shattered Star, but I have run Rise and Curse (twice) so I have a little to stand on.

Based upon what I've read in the thread so far, here are a few thoughts that might help keep 7DttG in line with your game and prevent your primary plot from being derailed by the Crimson Throne plot. This is less about the overarching story of the AP, and more about how to work it into what you are trying to accomplish while focusing on the Rise and Star plots.

This post will be less of a suggestion than a couple points for you to consider. If you have any follow up questions, I am always happy to drone on for long, meandering posts.

THE PLAGUE
A big part of 7DttG is the reveal that the plague is, in fact, not naturally occurring. If the characters know it is an attack on the city, they are immediately investigating the source and who is behind it. In the book as written, the Direption gets a passing mention, but the adventure steers the players towards containment and dealing with the consequences of contagion before unleashing them upon the good doctor. If the players know that the plague is an attack, you will have to work hard to convince them to spend time on the "containment" encounters when they know that there is a source to crusade against.

Keep in mind that if the players aren't given some kind of red herring to work with early, being sent to Korvosa to thwart Xanesha just as the plague hits is hardly a coincidence. Maybe have some obviously murdered and not plague ridden victims with the rune carved in them turn up? Maybe they arrive in Korvosa and there are already WANTED posters asking for information about the "Star Killer."

Essentially, if you make the connection between Vorel's Phage and Blood Veil too obvious and too early, you have a very different adventure on your hands.

THE HOOK
A lot of 7DttG abuses the relationship that the party has already established with Field Marshal Kroft in Edge of Anarchy. The adventure itself begins with the party being asked to help a plague victim related to a character they meet in the first book. Oriana being a way in seems to be a little bit of a stretch, unless you use her background in the Korvosan Guard to make her a previous friend of Cressida. Kroft is already a bit seditious by the time the Grey Maidens are rolled out...

Which reminds me! You may need a different reason besides the plague for Ileosa to roll out her Grey Maidens as the premier fighting force of the city. Or not. It is likely your players will never ask--you know them best. You could also decide that they were a large royal guard who is only now being given expanded power because of the plague...

Where was I? Ah yes! The hook. So to run the adventure closely to the book, you need a reason for Kroft to trust the PCs enough to elist their help (Oriana and desperation probably work fine here), and a reason for the party to volunteer their aid instead of hunting down Xanesha. If your party is particularly altruistic this shouldn't be a problem, but as soon as one person decides that stopping whatever Xanesha's grand, soul-stealing plot is advances the greater good far more than what little they feel they can do against a plague (how many times can you cast remove disease in a day, Sir Tanksalot?), it gets harder.

Perhaps there is a way for the PCs initial investigations to reveal that Xanesha has skipped town once she heard the PCs arrived? I mean, she has set up the Urgathoans, ritually murdered a few people to keep the PCs off the scent, and used her guile to make the bureaucracy convince Ileosa that Dr Davaulus is the best man for the job of fighting the plague (which, to be honest, she probably doesn't care much about anyway so the recommendation is easy to accept). After this she moves on to her next plan, wisely deciding after last time that tangoing with the PCs is better left to her new allies. Hopefully, you have thrown the PCs off the scent of the plague being her machination, but that means it is very possible they decide to leave town and chase Xanesha--only the quarantine just went into effect and the players are stuck dealing with it. I'll be the first to admit it is a cheap trick, but the players won't mind once they find out that they foiled her plan by stopping the plague. Having Jolistina carve sihedron runes into all of the guests at the Carowyn Manor would also serve to keep the party interested. Just a thought.

Of course, Xanesha could have just let it be known that she left the city in an attempt to get the PCs out of the city before the inevitable quarantine makes getting back in to stop her impossible, only for the party to not learn the information until the quarantine works against her. This way you can still have the showdown with her occur naturally in this segment of your campaign.

QUEEN ILEOSA ARABASTI I, MAY HER REIGN BE LONG AND PROSPEROUS
I think you are wise to keep Kazavon and his influence out of your campaign entirely. If the Sorshen whispering in her ear thing advances your plot, run with it. If it doesn't, than I would probably just have Ileosa be her usual, evil self all on her own. Either way, it is probably best to have her maintain a low profile in this one. The enemies are instead the agents and allies of Xanesha. This will keep the party firmly in the Runelords plot instead of skipping rails onto the Curse plot.

AFTER THE DIREPTION
Here's where things might need a little more massaging, and possibly a few cheap tricks. On the Direption, the party should discover the document implicating that the plague was sold to Davaulus by "B7." At this point, the PCs know that the doctor the Queen hired to save her city is, in fact, the man who plagued it in the first place. Naturally, they will go to Kroft, and this is covered in the book. That said, the party might still want to tell Ileosa. Unlike in the written adventure, Ileosa would probably be pretty pissed off if she discovered she was being conned by Davaulus and would be more than happy to crush him like a bug. Not so much because she cares about the city, of course, but more because nobody pulls a fast one on the Queen and lives to tell of it. So in this case, you just have to keep the party from informing the Queen. Maybe she has absconded to a villa outside of the city while the plague is rampant. Or maybe she is refusing to let anybody in the castle. Either way, you have to keep this problem in the PCs' hands so that they end up being the ones cleansing the temple of Urgathoa. On a side note, there probably shouldn't be any Grey Maidens inside the building. I'm sure you considered that already.

That's all I have off the top of my head. If you have any questions or want some more ideas, let me know.

Hope that inspires!

MrVergee makes a very good suggestion. What you should do depends upon how you want your characters to feel about the Queen at this time, and it also depends upon how your Ileosa sees the PCs.

To the PCs, she presents things exactly the way MrVergee suggests. The one thing I might add, however, is some dialogue to show Ileosa's faith in Davaulus as a doctor. Suspicions are not facts. The "proof" is just a piece of paper. She doesn't discount the PCs' discovery, but she also doesn't immediately take it as fact. Basically, the PCs are accusing Davaulus of starting a plague so that he could charge Korvosa a king's ransom to cure it. Seeing as how he is a leading expert in his field and has done similar work stopping plagues in other cities (that may or may not be a lie--your choice), he is either a savior or the worst kind of person imaginable. Look at it this way, Ileosa can't come out seeming like a moron for hiring this guy. She asks the PCs to be discrete in their investigation, if only for the people of her beloved Korvosa. Right now, Davaulus is the only hope they have. If it turns out that the PCs are wrong, spreading rumors now will make it impossible for him to do his job. Obviously, if they are correct, then Davaulus will be executed and a new solution will be pursued. Either way, there is no reason to get the people any more worked up until the facts are made clear--for the sake of the city, of course!

Option 1: Ileosa decides to go all in on eliminating the PCs now.
Obviously, a move right then in the castle is dangerous. The characters have probably been building a positive reputation, and in order to get to the Queen a LOT of people had to see them. No need to make a move immediately. Instead, she informs Davaulus that he's got a group of adventurers on his tail, negotiates a better rate over the slip-up (every gold piece counts when you're subjugating a city), and has the defenses of the Hospice increased significantly.

Since the most obvious tool of Ileosa's "justice" right now is the Grey Maidens, and she can't very well trust anyone else to be in the Hospice, they are the weapon of choice. Obviously, the Queen's betrayal will be revealed, but since the PCs aren't going to live to tell of it, their revelation will be short lived. It ought to be fun when the party thinks they're doing the Queen's work, only to have their path of escape from the temple blocked by Grey Maidens. This can occur as soon as they get downstairs, or wait until after they have defeated Andaisin.

Springing the trap early means less potential damage to the plague operation, but it also means that the party will be more capable of escaping once the Queen's direct involvement is revealed. The deeper they are in the temple before the Maidens are committed, the more likely they will be forced to stand and fight--they will also be less difficult for the Grey Maidens to defeat.

If you decide upon the Maidens waiting until they party is battered from the fight with Andaisin, you will have them in a tough spot. If it goes south for your group, you have the convenient deus ex machina of Blackjack, which also helps set up great motivations for the party in Book 3. Normally I avoid those types of situations like the, well, plague, but since they get to return the favor pretty quickly I don't think it ruins the game experience much at all.

In this scenario, I would probably have a bunch of Grey Maidens waiting
in a building next door, only to be deployed if Davaulus fails. Davaulus would be informed that the PCs are on to him, and to prepare accordingly. Obviously, the Queen's involvement must be hidden, so no Grey Maidens can be deployed to help him defend the temple. What is she paying him for, anyway? To help with the ruse, have two Grey Maidens at the front door. They will act as if they are expecting the PCs (they are), and let them in with a nod and a wink (how hard is it to see a person wink in that helmet?).

The end of Book 2 is where the party becomes convinced the Queen is the enemy in most cases anyway, so having the PCs be made VERY aware of it isn't so bad. If you would rater keep the game running into book 3, try out Option 2!

Option 2: Ileosa decides to hedge her bets.
In this scenario, Ileosa isn't completely sure her Grey Maidens are ready to handle a group like the PCs. At least, not able to handle it quietly. Ultimately, it doesn't matter to Ileosa what the PCs think, so much as what the city at large thinks. She informs Davaulus of his incompetence, and demands to know what the Red Mantis are going to do about it. She isn't paying them a king's ransom to bungle the plan and ruin her reputation. She pulls the Grey Maidens out of the Hospice, if only to minimize her apparent involvement. She lets the doctor know that she will throw him under the donkey cart if this scheme goes public--so don't let it go public.

Now, Davaulus didn't get to where he is today by being timid. The man has a fair amount of confidence in his own abilities and the backing of the Red Mantis. I would treat the whole temple as on alert, really making the PCs earn it. Add some more physicians to make up for the Grey Maidens, or maybe just some mercenary thugs with surprisingly similar stats...

In this way, you can basically run the adventure as written, with a simple "I was wondering when you would show up" line added to a Davaulus or Rolth or Andaisin monologue.

If Davaulus succeeds and the PCs are defeated, Ileosa can continue as normal. If the PCs succeed, she has no direct involvement and can pin it all on the doctor. Rolth is also a nice target here. The two times I ran this AP I played Rolth up as a little unhinged, and in his own mind he thought the plague plot was all his anyway. I conveyed this to the PCs by having him scream to the clerics to stop the group from ruining his work. It ultimately didn't stop either party from determining that the Queen was behind it all, but it was a noble effort and I'll try it again if I am ever so lucky to run it for a third group. Also, do yourself a favor and let Rolth get away--he can be a lot of fun.

Anyway, in this case Ileosa makes sure that she can't lose either way the PCs' investigation turns out. Having hired the plaguemaker is a black mark on her decision making, but not nearly as bad as being the person who had the plague created to cull the city of offensive poor people. Obviously, whichever bureaucrat that is resisting the new order most will be executed for passing along the Davaulus recommendation, since he/she was obviously in league with the doctor. Maybe you can throw the PCs off the Queen's scent with this, maybe you can't. Honestly, you need the Queen-as-enemy to be revealed soon anyway, if only to drive the PCs out of the city at the end of Book 3.

Hope that inspires!

Good stuff

I agree. I mean, I probably like to mess with players' heads and assumptions more than the average GM, but they appreciate the mind job when they get fun reveals and surprises. They even get to have the fun of knowing it all along sometimes, although I do my best to avoid that (which makes it more satisfying to the player when they earn it).

It's all a song and dance by the Queen to win the people over long enough to sacrifice all of them for her eternal youth. Well, at least that's the plan once she learns about the whole eternal youth option.

Anyway, Ileosa was a devious, manipulative woman BEFORE she found the Fangs of Kazavon. Play her that way, and your players won't know what to believe until they search the Direption. Having run this twice, I've had two tries at keeping the party off of the Queen's trail after that ship, and I still haven't been able to do it. I don't want to brag, but I've had both of those groups not realize Glorio Arkona was a rakshasa during book 3. No matter how much I tried to pin the plague on Rolth, I just can't make it stick. If I'm lucky enough to have a third group to torment, er, run this game for, I'll try to emphasize Rolth a little more a little earlier so that they might believe he's behind everything for a little while.

Honestly, if you aren't messing with your players' minds what is the point of running a game? The whole point is for everyone to have fun--GM included.

My initial idea was how a socially and economically charged protest swirled and churned into riots against the Queen. So this protest for the Justice against this slain guy and the guards overreacting their attempts to protest then turns into demonstrations against the guard for overreacting and the government sanctioned authority. But now with the king dead.. Well now it's the perfect time and all sorts of people to protest.

To me, the death of the King was more like the reason why this incident went massive. The lack of confidence and uncertainty of future with the Queen and pent up frustration is really what caused this... Which is what I wanted to have the original protest be about. An outlet for pent up frustration.

That was my plan but perhaps this is too complex for the game.

I think the big problem with this idea is that the party may become less inclined to align themselves with the guard. It isn't necessary for the party to be super guard friendly, but it sure does help a lot. I mean, your players might be all on the side of the analogous Ferguson police department, but if they're not you are just setting up the Korvosan Guard to be one more problem/antagonist. It also takes some of the thunder out of the Grey Maidens approach to riot quelling. Part of the reason that the riots get so bad and the Korvosa guard is stretched so thin is their unwillingness to kill Korvosan citizens. There aren't too many protests once the Grey Maidens institute a brutal martial law.

If you really want to take this approach, you should make the incident involve Hellknights. They are more likely to use deadly force in the name of law and order, it doesn't make the Korvosan guard seem like bad guys, and Ileosa can kick them out of the city as a PR move.

Hope that inspires!

I like it a lot.

I'm not entirely sure how much I would stress the At War bit or Eel's End in general, but everything else looks fantastic to me.

If you've read these forums at all you probably know how much I love the Arkonas. I like using the warehouse for Gaedren's operation, and I especially like how you have Glorio handling the fallout. I suppose my only concern would be Gaedren's lack of affiliation with the Cerulean Society, but that is easily explained if this is Vimanda's game.

The reason I suggest against incorporating too much of Eel's End is that it connects too many dots. Korvosa is a big place. There is plenty of room for lots of criminal scum. It also let's the written Eel's End encounter have some novelty when it comes up. Lastly, I think it behooves you to come up with your own, similar meeting place for the party that they won't possibly end up trashing so you can develop some basic NPC relationships to supply exposition on the state of Korvosa at any given time.

The only other tweak I might mention is to not introduce Kroft too early. Let the players be little fish for just a little bit. Grau and Niffe should be plenty. Besides, Kroft sort of IS the bureaucracy. In my mind, the only reason she starts financing vigilante justice is because she is undermanned and undersupplied during the biggest crisis Korvosa has known in the century since thousands left to found Magnimar.

Anyway, I think it is pretty neat, and foreshadowing Verik's desertion is a good play. I like it a lot.

There's a lot of good stuff bouncing around this thread. I have a soft spot for this AP, so I can't help but comment with long, boring paragraphs. Obviously, it should go without mention that this is just one person's opinion--what works for your game may vary.

In response to the Mr Vergee prelude approach: I like what MrVergee is going for there, but if somebody wants to play an elf or some other slow aging race the whole thing needs to be overhauled. Also--and this is just a personal opinion--I feel as though he is playing through and letting fate (dice) determine some of the character background stuff that I want to develop for my hero. The campaign traits provide several reasons to hate Lamm, and that accommodates more character archtypes than Mr Vergee's (in my opinion very good) planned out prelude.

In response to Gaedren as a recurring villain: Let him die. Let the players win. Don't steal that sense of accomplishment. Besides, too many recurring villains get stale. Save that card for the showstoppers like Laori and Rolth (I also highly recommend introducing Sial in a very different way than the book). Letting Gaedren die allows the players to switch gears and give the post-Eodred anarchy their full attention. Can you blame characters with a built in vendetta against Lamm for completely abandoning the city's needs to chase down yet another lead on Gaedren so they can finally make their revenge stick?

In response to linking Gaedren to Rolth: I'm not entirely against the idea, but when everything is linked together it all seems contrived and also makes Korvosa seem like a smaller place. If I were to link them in any way at all, I might have Rolth know who Gaedren is/was. More than likely, the necroterrorist has little use for a criminal who feeds bodies to a croc or chops off their heads, leaving nothing good to work with.

In response to characters with homes: The first group I ran this AP for was not as interested in worrying about where in Korvosa they came from, and they were more than happy to live at the inn on Kressida's dime. This gave them a convenient base of operations, and so the hooks were simpler and the group stayed together. When I ran the campaign a second time, I was determined that the party would have roots in the city and know why they were fighting for it. I made a point to make the Guide to Korvosa readily available, and I encouraged them to have roots in the city (this was also when I expanded Lamm's operation). In this case, I forced them to have a place to live and let them know that I would charge them the rent per month that was listed in the book for whatever home they chose.

Whether or not that is an owned house with upkeep or a rental is up to you and your players--3 out of 4 characters I had were renting, and the fourth would die before parting with his family's estate. I ended up with some great characters who used this to help flesh out their backgrounds and status. The two characters living in Bridgefront were very different from the scion of a wrongly dishonored noble house from North Point, who was different from the widower son of nouveau riche South Shore merchants living in Midland. It was more complicated to get the whole group in one place for certain encounters as they slowly overcame class boundaries to unite against the threats to Korvosa, but we all had a lot of fun just getting from home to Citadel Volshyenek during the rioting. The noble not understanding how to get across town without hired carts was a hilarious episode. If I am ever lucky enough to run this a third time, I will make them decide where to live again. Not every player will use this as attachment to the city, but if just one does that makes it worth it.

This doesn't preclude giving the party a line of credit at the inn or a Chelish ambassador's house. I know that my two characters from the shingles decided to move into Zellara's place once they discovered she was dead--taking advantage of the 2 year escrow that Gaedren always used to.

My thoughts on characters with jobs: The jobs thing is entirely harmless. Let's face it: adventuring is much better money, so it is likely that the jobs are very temporary. I've had a rehabbed shiver addict working a bar in the shingles over Bridgefront (The Flying Anchor, named so because someone got a very large anchor up there. Renamed to Anchor's Away after it got dislodged and fell to the streets during the riots), I've had a working con-artist, a guitarist, a private eye, I've even had an exterminator (someone's got to get the rats off of his dad's small merchant fleet), and some others. I've also had characters without jobs. A priest of Sarenrae who gave away his spellcasting to the poor and they all contributed to keeping him fed and sheltered, a disenfranchised noble who played escort to several wealthy widows so that he could maintain his lifestyle, and some others. Ultimately, the jobs don't stick after they are getting more money in one of Kroft's tasks than they used to make in months. And if the jobs are getting in the way, there is a combination of rioting, looting, customers too afraid to leave home, and plague to put their place of employment out of business. I never had to go that route. I did get two very funny "I QUIT!" encounters though.

Some thoughts on Rolth: I like him as a necromancer a lot. Evil necromancers are classic trope, although I prefer to take more of a necroterrorist spin on it. His plots are grand, if not always well thought out, and his obsession with destroying the PCs after they ruined his grandest plague scheme of all (in his own twisted mind the idea was all his), killed his elf, and ransacked one of his hideouts rivals the party's hatred of Gaedren. In the second run, some good saving throws by the party meant he was still in his gem during a magic jar that was thrown into a pit far away from his body during a battle in Kaer Maga. Normally, I like to let the players have their day since this was their third Rolth encounter (where I let him lie the first time I ran this), but I couldn't help myself. I had Togomor put that gem into an advanced, flying cannon golem hellbent on recovering his spellbook. Dutifully serving Ileosa to guard Castle Korvosa only because he knew the party would show up eventually. That fight was so much fun that I had to let the players have their victory and leave him dead--if only because I couldn't top it.

A final side thought on Jolistina: I was very leery about overplaying this NPC because I wanted Laori to be my b&~!@~& crazy elf exemplar. I'm not against keeping her around as a fun part of Rolth's character, but I didn't go out of my way to save her to make future appearances. I thought she might survive the second time I ran the game, but the gunslinger was so horrified and infuriated at the callous and unrepentant way Jolistina murdered everyone at the masquerade that he put one in the back of her head as soon as he was left alone with her. I considered zombie bride type stuff, but instead used it as more reason for Rolth to hate the group. If she ever makes it out of Carowyn Manor, I'll obviously have a decision to make. It will very likely be to bring her back with Rolth, just not in book 2.

Hope that inspires!

There is a god chance I'm woefully late to help, if anything I say would actually help, but just in case I'm not, or for the sake of others reading the forums, I'll throw in my 2cp.

You are absolutely right about the opener, and expanding the beginning is the number one best advice I can give to anybody running this game.

The solution I would offer, however, doesn't require Zellara to forget where her body is at all, she just needs to fib a little. Why? Because killing Lamm isn't good enough. She wants to tear down his life just like hers was and then kill him.

SO, just have her tell the party that she doesn't know exactly where Gaedren is (not a complete lie if we cling to the literal definition of exactly), but that she DOES know where one of his lieutenants is. If they could bring back a personal item of the henchman, she can use that connection to aid in her divinations. Then you send them to as many shiver labs and bad bookies as you like, where the vindictive group will likely take those personal items from cold, dead hands--destroying Lamm's organization in the process. I made them Lamm's actual children, which made it more fun for everybody involved. Then they ultimately take down Gaedren and the city goes to hell. Of course, the old fishery was kinda boring after a battle with alchemists in a small underground room with only a thin pane of glass separating everyone from thousands of dream spiders, but I guess there is a price for everything.

Hope that inspires!

On a side note, it has been a long time since I read and ran this game last, but, as far as I recall, he son died trying to get the cards back and Zellara died trying to get her son back. I'm guessing Gaedren has killed lots of people, why he chose to put her head in a box when he doesn't seem to collect lots of bodies I don't know.

My best advice is to expand Lamm's operation and give the party time in Korvosa during Eodred's reign. I did this by using the brief mention of Lamm being involved with Shiver to build a mini drug empire for the players to bust up. I had Zellara sell "total revenge" to the players and had her point them to cogs in Gaedren's machine, and the players collected personal items from the main henchmen to help Zellara guide them to the next spot and ultimately Gaedren. As long as they end up with the brooch when the city starts burning, you're probably doing alright. Why I suggest doing everything before the anarchy is so that the party gets to "meet" Korvosa and know what the heck their fighting for. This was the biggest change I made when I ran the AP for a second group, and it made a world of difference.

There are a few things you should consider when taking your Grey Maiden approach.

1) Be careful with the timeline. The Grey Maidens aren't getting formed before Eodred dies. Also, Queen Ileosa's power (and with that her ambition) are still developing. All this means is that it isn't likely she begins forming the Grey Maidens immediately upon gaining the throne. Besides, there are bigger concerns to occupy her initially, like reining in the great families and turning Korvosa's giant bureaucracy to her will.

2) Be careful with Ileosa's reputation. Part of the fun this AP provides is being able to sell Ileosa as the good person in a tough situation all the way until they determine the true nature of blood veil. If you tie anything to her being bad early, your players lose that fun reveal. The first way to get around this that comes to mind is to set up some rumors that imply Rolth is behind it, then when they ransack one of Rolth's warrens, they will start to think the BBEG might be the necromancer. Sort of deflecting blame from the queen. Honestly, if I ever get the chance to run this a third time, I will play up Rolth even more than I did the second time. He has been a lot of fun for me.

As long as you keep these things in mind, you will do just fine.

Because I'm half drunk and your post is making me nostalgic, I'll give a quick share of my Grey Maiden take. It's a bit different, and by no means better, but maybe you can take some ideas from it. Keep in mind that I played Ileosa as the good guy (er, girl/demon/dragon) to the hilt for as long as possible.

My approach to Grey Maidens was to foreshadow them as a good thing, or at least not a bad thing. I did this a few ways:

1) Have the barmaid they were flirting with all the way through book 1 proudly tell them that she was getting out of that tavern and joining the new queensguard. This paints it as a path out of the lower class.

2) Someone talking about their cousin joining up, being proud of the status they think they'll have and the great paycheck--three ties what he makes as a Korvosan Guard! This paints it as a high paying, enviable position.

3) I had Kressida bemoaning that her best and brightest women were leaving her for Ileosa's personal guard at a time when she needs all the help she can get, but that she doesn't blame them considering the pay and equipment bump. Same as before, and it reinforces why she is working with the party in the first place.

4) Have the weaponsmith tell them it will be a little longer before they can fill any orders because they have a rich contract from the Queen herself! A good thing, too, since things got so bad with the riots he was afraid he might have to close. Economic stimulus? An armorsmith could even show off a completed suit of armor to them.

Enough stuff like that makes it seem like a good deal. The reason I did it, though, was to make killing Grey Maidens a little more personal. It never stopped any of my players from doing it, of course, but they offered surrender a lot more than in any other campaign I've run and they did feel kind of bad about it. It also ratchets up the tension when they return to the city in book 6 and then hear about how it became conscription. Then they meet parents sobbing because their daughter was "drafted." Keeps the hate for Ileosa strong, and makes killing minions a little more interesting. Finally, it helps sell Sabina's scheme to free a bunch of Grey Maiden rejects in book 6 (which is done off screen, but totally worth writing up for the PCs to do).

Anyway, I hope that inspires!

Knick, bane of your mouse wheel

So, they managed to chase down Verik and find out about Melyia Arkona's involvement? These folks are diligent. You are blessed to have this group (and maybe cursed as well).

I think it would be best if they did not get an opportunity to meet Melyia and talk about the dagger at this time. It is, however, an amazing opportunity to introduce Glorio Arkona and plant the seeds of him becoming a prisoner in his own home (well, lying about it anyway). Assuming, of course, that you were taking that approach in book 3.

Let's consider a few things (like most of my work, it is long):

1) The party knows that the dagger was a fiendish spy given to Verik by Melyia (or at least that is what the traitor guardsman is saying).

2) Glorio Arkona is the kingpin of the Korvosan underworld and undoubtedly knows all about Kroft's new "not-exactly-lawful" assistants (if I recall correctly about how Eel's End sank, then I am certain Glorio paid attention).

3) Glorio Arkona does NOT like Ileosa. Not one bit. He isn't in a position to do anything about that yet, but one has to believe that he is keeping his eye open for opportunities. For example, he has enough underworld contacts to know that Salvator is tapping some of them for unusual favors that might involve a certain VIP...

4) In Balor's mind, having Kroft's vigilante team come to his house with accusations of his sister having possessed a Raktavarna is clear evidence of her incompetence and the risk she poses to his style of living in Korvosa. Clearly, the battle for supremacy of the family will have to be resolved sooner than later. If anything, the PCs could be the catalyst for the extreme level of family infighting that they later encounter in book 3 by delivering this news. I mean, if the party did any serious research on what a Raktavarna is (beyond what Vimanda-as-dean told them) they might discover it is itself a rakshasa and then it is only a short dotted line to Melyia is a fiend and so must be Glorio.

5) It is clear that the PCs must be somewhat capable to have Kroft forgiving arson and tracing the dagger back to Melyia. This means they might be useful in the future, and Glorio is always looking for useful people. There are also a few things they could have done that makes Glorio think they are worth considering as the right pawns for use against the queen. Giving Trinia to Kroft instead of the Queen or interfering at the execution, for example.

Got it? Good. Let's continue.

There should be NO WAY that Glorio owns up to knowing ANYTHING about raktavarnas. The less they are thinking about the dagger and him in the same thoughts the better. If there has to be a fall guy, it certainly won't be Bahor.

Consider this: the party is about to tell Glorio, one of the most respected and imposing men in all of Korvosa, that his wife had a thing going on with a traitor guardsman (only a sergeant!?) and gave him some sort of evilmagicknifespything. Now, on the inside all he can think is "how stupid is my sister?" On the outside, however, the rakshasa guile goes to work.

This is a cause to show some sincere (looking) emotion to the party. He should appear to be in a state of shock and disbelief. The party will likely forget all about the implication of infidelity while they are pursuing the dagger, so the reaction ought to compel at least a little polite backing off of the topic for a moment. If the party waits it out for a minute or so, he will eventually start talking as if they aren't even there. Almost just thinking aloud (or, you know, pointing any implication of guilt away from himself). Remarking about how odd she has seemed since her last trip to Vudra, just before coming back around to talking about how it doesn't make any sense at all--Verik is a measly sergeant! He then comes back to his senses (rather, finishes his exposition) and apologizes to the PCs for his break of etiquette. Surely they could understand how this comes as a shock to him? Maybe it wasn't even her, but an impostor using the Arkona name to manipulate Verik? Either way, he should thank the PCs kindly and explain that he will have a serious conversation with his wife. If they are ever in Old Korvosa and need a favor, they should feel free to come to him. This way Bahor can keep abreast of their shenanigans. If they try to cash in the favor immediately, have Glorio seem slightly offended that they would ask him in his current state, and that they should come back another day.

All of this sets up book 3 rather nicely, and the group is even less likely to try running in guns-a-blazing if they have had peaceable discussions with Glorio in the past. It also sets up the "Melyia has made me a prisoner in my own home" approach very well. And since they will never seem to be able to catch Melyia at a good time, they will be more likely to believe that she is spending all of her time renovating the dungeons when Glorio tells them as much later in the AP.

The only real risk you run is that it doesn't definitively solve the dagger mystery. Glorio instead attempts to obfuscate it. Future attempts to go after Glorio about the dagger should start being received as offensive and maybe break some of the good will. The group may not be satisfied. Hopefully a relationship with one of the most powerful and important nobles of Korvosa is suitable replacement.

The reward for this encounter is that the party might start using Glorio as a resource, and Glorio will likely use them back. He would be happy to help out in many situations, I'm sure, as long as the party kept it between them and didn't include Kroft (and if it served his interests in the city, whether that be his criminal underworld, political machinations, or upsetting the Queen).

My apologies to your mouse wheel. Hope that inspires!

I officially introduced the Grey Maidens in Seven Days just as the AP suggests. I did, however, let the PCs know Ileosa was assembling a Queensguard of sorts through some quick and dirty NPC interactions. I began dropping these stories right around Eel's End in my timeline. Figured I would give Ileosa a few days on the throne dealing with the Korvosan bureaucracy before she started up her personal army.

The examples I remember off the top of my head:

-->The barmaid they spent some time with while eliminating Lamm's operation proudly telling them it was her last night and that she was joining the Grey Maidens.

-->I had a weaponsmith let them know that he was backed up with work from the Queen and that any orders would be a little while. I would have gone for an armorer and given the party a sneak peek at the uniform, but both times I ran this I didn't have anyone looking for plate mail (Inquisitor / Ranger / Rogue / Sorcerer followed by Gunslinger / Monk / Priest / Rogue).

-->My second party had two characters from bridgefront, including the priest who took care of the destitute who could never afford a Cleric of Abadar. This was a golden opportunity for women to start enlisting as a way out of poverty.

-->Just as Olondir suggests, I had Kroft lament that so many of her women guards were taking the opportunity to join Ileosa's new elite bodyguard, but she didn't really blame them for taking the "better" job (hindsight is 20/20).

-->Proud parents seeing their daughter off along with concerned parents who don't want their child in the military.

Anyway, I absolutely went with the positive approach early. Ileosa could start out with conscription and press gangs, but why? Who wouldn't leave the drudgery of the guard to be an elite, well-equipped soldier with more prestige? At this time, there hasn't been a chance to notice that nobody comes back from training whether they make it or not, and families can't know that they will never speak to their daughters again. Obviously, this eventually becomes apparent and new tactics are utilized to fill the Queen's ranks. Then you have mothers crying because their daughter was conscripted and stories of women drawn and quartered for resisting "enrollment." Clearly, they must have been traitors.

All of this made fighting the Grey Maidens much more interesting, as the characters knew they were fighting innocent , brainwashed citizens of the city. I suppose it didn't stop them from killing any in the path of the greater good, but if there was an opportunity to avoid it they took it (hard to do with fight-to-the-death zealots). They also worked hard to get the majority of the Grey Maidens pardoned in the aftermath.

Tels' approach is certainly valid, but I feel that it puts Ileosa into BBEG a little too early. Twice now I've had parties not suspect a thing before the Trina execution, and even then they weren't completely against her until they learn about Devaulus. I did try to pawn that off as Devaulus making business for himself, but it was weak and the party knew it. By that point though, the group is heading into Escape and need to be anti-Ileosa in order to motivate the trouble they go through to save Neolandus.

Hope that inspires!

Have you checked out Wayfinder #7? It is free on this website and has a couple ideas that might help you out.

If only a person with an interest in the dagger had a way to know what the PCs plans were and could easily change shape to look like any person, like, say, the dean of divination. That could lead to a fun encounter...

Here is how I would run it in your situation, and remember, facts are the greatest tools of deception:

Vimanda clearly knows about the PCs' attempt to divine the dagger's true purpose since the dagger has been spying on them the entire time. She also probably knows about the meet up with the dean of divination. There is a pretty good chance as a noble of a great family that she knows what the dean looks like, and an even better chance that the characters don't.

Kroft informs the party that she doesn't mingle with wizards very often, but that doesn't mean she can't help. Given the characters' service to the city, their return of the Queen's broach, and her own stature as Field Marshal, Kroft is certain she can have the Queen request dean wotsisname's help--possibly for no fee (but don't get your hopes up, the wizards of the acadamae aren't always so agreeable). She promises to bring it up the very next time she and the Queen speak. The raktavarna hears all of this and lets Vimanda know.

That very night, Vimanda-as-dean finds them. It is an opportunity to meet these heroes in person, and to gauge how they might be useful to her in the future. Depending upon how you feel about it, (s)he can act annoyed at being summoned by the Queen for trifle tasks, or happy to help (possibly say something like one of his student's relatives was helped by the heroes actions or whatever--Vimanda knows everything they've done since they got the dagger so you can use any of that and it helps build trust with the party), or start out annoyed but becoming interested once the dagger is revealed. All of these options are fine.

A part of me thinks Vimanda should take the money for a spell she can't cast, but she is also a clever girl and no doubt knows that somebody in the party has the Spellcraft skill. Also, it is a little rude to burn the party out of their hard earned cash. So Vimanda-as-dean will say something like "let's not talk about payment until I see what we're getting into" or some such nonsense. As soon as she holds the dagger, a look of shock and concern crosses her face. "I don't need a spell to recognize this evil!" (s)he says in a very serious voice, "This is a Raktavarna, a spy for fiends and worse!" At this point the dagger transforms into its other form in Vimanda-as-dean's hands and (s)he appears to struggle with it for a moment before shouting a word the party doesn't understand (hoping that nobody in the party knows Vudran... if she has reason to know that someone does, she could use a language like abyssal or infernal) and the creature turns back into a dagger. She should appear slightly shaken up after this.

Now that she has kindly revealed the dagger as a an evil spy, she asks them about how it came into their possession, as only a powerful fiend could create such a thing. (S)he can wonder aloud who was really behind Vancaskerkin's treasonous behavior and what that means for the city. Considering all that has gone on lately, this could be as simple as an evil power taking advantage of the anarchy or a sinister force behind the entire thing. Either way, Vimanda-as-dean asks the PCs to let her take the dagger and use it as a scrying focus so (s)he can attempt to determine who gave the raktavarna to Verik so that they can be dealt with--especially if it is a serious threat to the city. (S)he promises to let them know whatever (s)he discovers.

Meanwhile, Cressida is true to her word and asks the Queen to request the dean of divination's help on behalf of the PCs to identify a dagger. Ileosa can easily identify magic daggers herself, and so mistrusts any need for the greatest diviner in Korvosa (and one of the only people who might be able to discover things about her if they were so inclined) in such an endeavor. She informs Kroft that the dean's efforts looking out for Korvosa's enemies should they try to take advantage of the city in its weakened state is far too important to interrupt for identifying paltry magic items.

The next time that Kroft sees the characters, you have two options:

1) She opens up with an apology about not being able to get the Queen to enlist the dean's help, but that she could maybe offer them some other reward for the Eel's End job. Sadly, the dean is preoccupied protecting the city in its weakend state. This leads to some confused PCs since they already met with the dean--or did they? The dean did talk a lot about the raktavarna being a spy for evil fiends...

2) The party thanks her for getting the dean's help, and Kroft says she left the Queen under the impression that such help was not forthcoming. Kroft will then appreciate Ileosa's change of heart and possibly have a very awkward conversation in the castle when she thanks her later.

Of these options, I like the first one more because it involves the PCs and gives a serious air of mystery. Just remember to give Vimanda the raktavarna in Escape From Old Korvosa so the party finally gets the answer to their questions--possibly after they have long forgotten or given up on the subject.

Hope that inspires!

Victor Zajic wrote:

Except there is a mechanics issue for Paladins. They have an alignment restriction, and their source of divine power has to stay fairly close to that alignment.

False. This is nowhere in the class write up. They have a personal code of behavior. There are zero restrictions on where their power can come from. I can see the inherent disconnect for evil gods and the various references to "holy" power and such and even the more corrupt neutral ones but any good god can make use of a LG servant and be consistent with their ethos.

Unless you are playing in Golarion, where the setting dictates that divine casters (Oracles being the exception) must get their power from a patron deity and that deity has to be within one step of their alignment. Since the CRB is setting neutral, it doesn't have this restriction within the class write up, but it isn't a big leap for any setting. Notice how Faiths of Purity doesn't have a paladin code write up for Desna.

Throwing the setting out the window is NOT cool. If you don't like the setting, you can talk to your GM to try and work out an exception, but breaking the setting after this conversation is my "maybe I'll have room for you in the next campaign (probably not)" moment. Show some respec to the person building a story for you and the other people in that story. It is a group game, and no player is bigger than the group. The GM, to a certain extent, is bigger, because (s)he has the task of staging everything besides the PCs, including the bulk of the plot.

There are plenty of things that can make a game difficult to play in, and I agree that critical fumbles are a big no for me and I absolutely, positively, CANNOT STAND DMPCs stealing the spotlight, as well as blatant DM intervention that undermines the success (or even failures) of the party.

Victor Zajic wrote:

Too bad "Don't be a jerk" is only a rule in PFS, because deliberately not following rules, also known as cheating, is a pretty jerky thing to do to the GM who is sacrificing a lot of time and energy to entertain you for free.

Meh. I volunteer to play as he volunteers to run. It's a symbiosis. Neither role is greater than the other.

My assumption, based upon that dismissive statement, is that you don't do a lot of GMing, because no matter how much work you are putting into your character, I know a good GM is putting in a lot more everywhere else.

TLDR: Bruni sounds like my rebellion point as a GM.

Unexpected Angles As long as a Swashbuckler has one Panache he does not half his speed when using Acrobatics to move through an opponent's threatened squares. When a Swashbuckler successfully moves through an opponent's space using Acrobatics he may spend one Panache to make a full attack.

Well, for one, you don't HAVE to move half speed when using Acrobatics, you simply incur a -10 penalty to the roll... Unless you are playing a 7th level Swashbuckler with at least 1 panache point (Swashbuckler's Grace, which I like quite a bit).

So perhaps we could rephrase that to:

Unexpected Angles Whenever a Swashbuckler successfully uses Acrobatics to move through an opponent's space, he may spend one Panache to make a full attack.

Possibly a level 11 deed? I don't know. The moving through an enemies SPACE is a little restrictive, because there is nothing I know of that gets rid of the -5 penalty for doing that. Then again, making a full attack is not very restrictive, so that could get messy. Possibly "Whenever a Swashbuckler successfully uses Acrobatics to move through a space threatened by an enemy, he may spend one Panache to make a full attack so long as all attacks are against that enemy?"

Either way you slice it, this is pounce in disguise, and I get the vibe that the design team doesn't want more pounce. Maybe a pounce-lite where you lose your last iterative. Still good, but not AS good.

Just a thought.

Another thought is on googleshng attacking the +1 lamellar curiass... seriously? Sandpoint has a pretty diverse group of citizens from all over Golarion (mostly Chelish and Varisian) and is a short trip from a major city (and traders come from that city once a week for the market). C'mon man. I haven't even brought in the "it's a [i]fantasy[/] world" argument yet.

Okay...for all you Dex damage junkies, we are looking into options that allow you to do it, but they will probably be more like Dervish Dance -- that is options that you feat into.

I think I just filled the cup...

Whoops, somehow I accidentally posted this under playtests--fixed!

I came up with this during my first swashbuckler playtest, and since the playtest has put me in a swashbuckler movie watching spree.

How cool would it be to replicate the Inigo/Man-in-Black duel conversation? How much do you want to say "I see you are using Orisini's defense against me!"

This is also a great opportunity to help out some weapons that are not 18-20 crit range (and a boost to those as well).

So, basically spitballing here, but I put a few examples together to get the idea across. As for stances, I don't think those should necessarily apply to Weapon Style Feats, unless the swash gets a MoMS exception, since Inigo and Wesley were clearly using a blend of multiple styles throughout that duel. It also encourages the weapon master's blending of his training to ultimately create his own style at high levels.

Orisini Defense
The Orisini fencing style focuses on defense--particularly on defending others. It requires a rapier and an open hand.

Orisini Student
You are practiced in the basics of Orisini's Defense. By using intricate footwork to maintain a slim profile towards your opponents, you are able to avoid attacks and gracefully move to better positions.
Prerequisites: Acrobatics 3 ranks, BAB +3, Combat Reflexes, Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus: Rapier
Benefit: While fighting with a rapier in one hand and holding nothing in the other (including bucklers and shields), you gain a dodge bonus to AC and Acrobatics checks equal to your Charisma bonus.

Orisini Fencer
You have honed your battlefield awareness beyond just self-defense, and can effectively protect others from harm by harassing opponents with a web of flashing steel.
Prerequisites: Acrobatics 5 ranks, BAB +5, Combat Reflexes, Orisini Student, Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus: Rapier
Benefit: While fighting with a rapier in one hand and holding nothing in the other (including bucklers and shields), any opponent you threaten that also threatens an ally gains a +3 circumstance bonus on all attacks made against you, and a -3 circumstance penalty on all attacks against any other target. The threatened opponent may forego the penalty if it chooses, but doing so provokes an attack of opportunity from anyone with the Orisini Fencer feat.

Orisini Master
You are a true master of defending your allies in combat. You use your footwork and awareness to position your allies as well as yourself to maximum effect.
Prerequisites: Acrobatics 8, BAB +8, Combat Reflexes, Dodging Panache deed class feature, Orisini Fencer, Orisini Student, Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus: Rapier
Benefit: While fighting with a rapier in one hand and holding nothing in the other (including bucklers and shields), whenever you use the Dodging Panache deed, you may first move a willing or helpless ally you are adjacent to 5ft. as well. The ally does not provoke attacks of opportunity with this move, but you do as normal. Both you and your ally gain your Charisma bonus to AC against the triggering attack. Additionally, you may activate Dodging Panache when an adjacent ally is attacked. If, when doing this, you move yourself into the square your ally occupied before using Dodging Panache, the attack is resolved against you instead of your ally, if you do not move yourself into the ally's square, the attack is resolved against the ally.
Normal: You may only activate Dodging Panache when you are attacked.

Underfoot Technique
Brix Underfoot spent decades honing her skills battling the giants that threatened her homeland. Eventually she "retired" to a fighting academy where she shares her secrets for overcoming a small stature. This style utilizes a longsword and a buckler

Underfoot Student
Using a high guard stance, you focus your parries against attacks from above.
Prerequisites: Dex 13, Opportune Parry/Riposte Deed, Slashing Grace: Longsword, Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus: Longsword
Benefit: While fighting with a longsword and buckler, you ignore the penalty for parrying larger opponents and instead take a -2 penalty for parrying attacks from targets the same size as you, and an additional -2 penalty for each size category smaller than you.

Underfoot Fencer
Your parries against larger opponents put them off guard.
Prerequisites: Cha 13, BAB +3, Dex 13, Opportune Parry/Riposte Deed, Slashing Grace: Longsword, Underfoot Student, Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus: Longsword
Benefit: While fighting with a longsword and buckler, whenever you successfully use Opportune Parry against an opponent that is larger than you, you gain a bonus to CMD and CMB equal to your Charisma bonus against that creature for a number of rounds equal to your Charisma bonus.

Underfoot Master
Prerequisites: Cha 15, BAB +7, Dex 15, Opportune Parry/Riposte Deed, Slashing Grace: Longsword, Targeted Strike Deed, Underfoot Fencer, Underfoot Student, Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus: Longsword
Benefit: While fighting with a lonsword and buckler, whenever you use the Target Strike deed to attack the Legs of an opponent that is larger than you, that opponents move speed is reduced to half, and they suffer a penalty to AC equal to your Charisma modifier. This effect lasts for a number of rounds equal to your Charisma modifier, it can be removed before then with a successful DC 15 Heal check.

Again, these are just some thoughts, but it is a way to have a lot of fun with the swashbuckler, especially if you can combine a few styles at high level. I didn't really try anything here, but it would stand to reason that you could do a little more with lower crit range weapons since those swashbucklers are already dealing with a little less panache.

So what do you think?

Now let us take a look at what dex does CURRENTLY:

1)AC
2)Reflex
3)Initiative
4)to hit for ranged attacks(meaning if a fighter wants ranged at all, he will still have to have some dex to help with that.)
5)Many, many skills that are useful even in combat including acrobatics
6)to hit with weapon finesse.
7)cmb with agile maneuvers.

And funny how melee characters across the board keep picking Strength despite all of these wonderful things you listed. Because they really don't add much. I won't go into it again on this thread, except to say that numbers 6 and 7 are weak at best.

Also, please come back to us after playing through mythic with a swash because I genuinely want to know how your action economy worked out. A lot of swift actions in that mythic book.

Charmed Life is a great implementation IMO to help incentivise charisma while also aiding the swashbuckler's horrific saving throws.

Did you read the Immediate Action part?

Lemmy wrote:

Knick wrote:

I'm going to touch on this next bit only very briefly: Guns are NOT terrible. They look bad with just a quick skim, but in practice they have no downsides. If guns really did have those reloading problems and whatnot, I'd agree. There is very little stopping you from full-attacking all of the time a few levels in, either with musket master or that cheesy weapon cord dual pistols approach (that is a LOT of attacks on touch AC). The fact that you are hitting touch AC the entire time means you almost never miss. The gold costs are certainly there, but 6gp a shot isn't that bad by the time you get iterative attacks, and with nearly every attack hitting so consistently you very rarely feel like you're wasting money. I've seen what a non-optimized, no archetype gunslinger can do in a campaign--I can only imagine what an optimized build would be capable of.

Unless you're a Gunslinger (or Trench Fighter), firearms are the worst weapons in the whole game.

- Requires EWP
- Slow reload time
- No attribute modifier to damage (again, unless you're a Gunslinger or Trench Fighter)
- Misfire (the only innate Fumble mechanics in the game)
- Horrible, horrible range
- Extremely expensive weapons
- Extremely expensive ammo
- weak crit threat range (and that x4 multiplier isn't really any better than a x3)
- It's loud (try using guns when Stealth is required)

You need a whole class (and a bunch of feat taxes) devoted to firearms just to make them a viable choice.

I've GMed for a TWF Pistolero Gunslinger... It does deal a lot of damage. And that's it. It's surprisingly easy to deal with them. Not every problem can be solved with bullets and not every enemy stays in a 20ft radius around the Gunslinger (and the ones who do, will often stay in melee and take lots of AoO).

Having played a gunslinger myself...this. All of this.

I would probably argue that wielding a single one-handed light weapon is just as bad. Which is why we need a whole class (and a bunch of feat taxes) devoted to it just to make it viable. Enter the Swashbuckler! See what I did there? I suppose this could only work if the swash were in some way based upon a class that did this, like the gunslinger...

Look guys, guns not being good if you aren't playing a gunslinger is a moot point, because they made the gunslinger. Just like a fighter using a buckler and a rapier with Weapon Finesse has serious limitations--so they make a swashbuckler. Now, as it stands, the swash doesn't go far enough since the devs err far upon the side of caution, but all you are doing with this gunslinger talk is making my point.

It takes an entire class with a fresh outlook to make a sub-optimal weapon viable.

P.S. I don't really see the heavy feat tax for a gunslinger. Nothing more than the usual archer stuff, really. I mean, there is Signature Deed and perhaps Extra Grit, but since you can't take Manyshot you free one feat up. Also, weapon focus isn't quite as necessary (still decent though).

P.S.S. I'd take musket master over pistolero any day of the week, in part because of that range limitation you mention. ALso, Signature Deed on Deadeye brings that touch targeting to 40ft. without spending anything--not too shabby (although you miss out on Signature Bleeding Wound, which is what I take on a musket master).

It's morning, and Charmed Life is still not good. I suppose trading off a bucketload of your versatility for a slightly better chance of dying isn't so bad, unless that evil wizard had low initiative and you parried something already... Ugh.

I'm going to touch on this next bit only very briefly: Guns are NOT terrible. They look bad with just a quick skim, but in practice they have no downsides. If guns really did have those reloading problems and whatnot, I'd agree. There is very little stopping you from full-attacking all of the time a few levels in, either with musket master or that cheesy weapon cord dual pistols approach (that is a LOT of attacks on touch AC). The fact that you are hitting touch AC the entire time means you almost never miss. The gold costs are certainly there, but 6gp a shot isn't that bad by the time you get iterative attacks, and with nearly every attack hitting so consistently you very rarely feel like you're wasting money. I've seen what a non-optimized, no archtype gunslinger can do in a campaign--I can only imagine what an optimized build would be capable of.

The gunslinger does buckets of damage and can stay away from trouble while doing it. Meanwhile the swash does OK damage while standing right in the jaws of danger. At the same time, the gunslinger gets a real Fort save and their only weak save is bolstered by their grit stat. So to play a high-damage, high-defense class, I just need 2 stats on a gunslinger. To play a high-damage, high defense swash, I need 4 stats--5 if I don't want to dump Charisma.

That said, let's honor ChainsawSam's statement that the gunslinger spends 20 levels overcoming firearms for a moment (it's more like 3-5 levels, when they go well beyond compensation, but I digress). The swashbuckler (a gunslinger alternate) should then be spending 20 levels attempting to overcome a one-handed fighting style. Ultimately you don't gain a lot for this class, and it still looks like strength is straight up better until level 11 at minimum, and forever if you run into an elemental (very rare, I know).

Nimble = can't wear medium or heavy armor
Precise Strike = using a single one-handed weapon?
Swashbuckler's Finesse = Fighter level 1 bonus feat
Swashbuckler Weapon Training = limited fighter weapon training, with the trade-off that you get early Improved Crit without paying a feat.
Charmed Life (with baked in limitation that takes away other class abilities) = maybe a little better than Bravery, but then the swash is cursed with a low Fort save after a bad trade for Reflex.
Deeds = bonus feats, since most of the abilities are feat power level anyway. Would you take the dizzying defense feat? How about the swashbuckler's initiative feat? The derring-do feat? Just curious.

I'm sure MechE will chime in about how much better the AC on a swash can be with high Dex and a buckler, but keep in mind that the devs didn't think twice before allowing bucklers and that potential 1-6 points of armor class. Meanwhile, Dex-to-damage is treated like a leper with the plague (except on gunslingers, who get to hit touch AC from range). They aren't entirely wrong, but I also think they are exaggerating the benefit of Precise Strike. If that isn't proof AC isn't as valuable as damage I don't know what is.

I can see after this list that the class appears to be a fair trade... except that it has very demanding ability score dependencies, so the simple fighter can just crank up Strength and be good to go, while the swash has a lot more to worry about. And THAT is where the main difference shows up. It isn't in the class rules so much as the class execution. So it lags behind just like the monk does, and doesn't fulfill its martial role as well as any other martial that can just worry about 1 or 2 stats. On top of that, the Cleric is probably better at fighting oozes. So the rules imply that you can build the class a certain way, and--to be fair--it isn't terrbible, but the end result falls short of both the fighter and the gunslinger (probably should fall below the gunslinger) while having several options that you can't always make use of. Maybe the devs just put a huge value on 4+int skill points per level... while trying to make Swashbuckler's Finesse let you dump Int so that you may not be getting all of those. I don't know.

I'm still going to playtest this, but I don't see much improvement on the first version, since the core issue of making an effective Dex/Cha fighter was not really addressed. Perhaps that experience will change my opinion, but until then:

The Swashbuckler is just a fighter who trades power and versatility for a few tricks. On top of that, it needs stats like a monk, where the fighter can get by with 1 or 2.

Soooo.. just caught that bit about Charmed Life being an immediate action and not a free action...

C'mon Paizo. Seriously? Seriously?

Why even bother? Everything this character does is an immediate or swift action, and perhaps that is by design so that maybe, just maybe somebody will do something besides precise strike, but this one stings. It's one thing to have a million deeds, with the choice of one per round (and gods help the mythic swash). But did Charmed Life really need a kicker like that? It has finite uses per day! If they get used in one round or seven, what's the big deal? Why do I feel like every "fix" on this class is designed to get under my skin for ever questioning the dev team?

Well, you didn't like Riposte requiring Combat Reflexes, so we'll just limit it to once per turn and not let you use any of your other deeds. Well, you don't like having MADly debilitating Fort and Will saves, so here is a token that may reward raising yet another stat that makes your saves not completely terrible--but you can't use any of those deed things that make the class special on that turn.

Seriously?

Look, I'll playtest this and hopefully have my mind changed, but having a bajillion options that you can never use in the same round is a little frustrating. I don't see how the sum of the class abilities makes up for the limiting fighting style. I mean, how is this as good as a gunslinger again? Or a fighter for that matter?

Seriously?

Man, at least Swashbuckler's Grace seems OK. I better go read that to make sure it isn't a swift action...

I just went from a little disappointed to considering D&D Next (where all light weapons get Dex to hit and damage out of the gate... just saying). Obviously, I'll get over that crazy thought, and Paizo will still get my money because the investigator is absolutely awesome, but something tells me saving a few bucks and buying from Amazon isn't off the table. Maybe I was just too excited about this class when it was announced, and having the expectation that Paizo would finally make an awesome and effective Dex/Cha fighter in d20 was too much. Maybe it's my fault.

Seriously?

I'm still absorbing this, and I will probably wait until I get a chance to play it before I make any firm declarations, but my first impression is that while they did a few things to try saving Charisma from being a dump stat, there is nothing in the revision that helps make DEX a better option than STR. I mean, if you aren't fighting a creature that can't be sneak attacked (at which point you are in some serious trouble) the swash can have bleeding wound as a Signature Deed at 11th level and get Dex-to-damage that way, but up to 11 I can't see a great reason to emphasize Dexterity over Strength. With opportune parry still basically the same (and while the penalty was knocked in half, it is still a penalty), and especially with riposte changed, I just don't see a good (mechanical) reason to go with a Dex build outside of Dervish Dance and Agile weapons.

Speaking of, riposte got the nerf bat we were warned of, which has the benefit of removing the feat tax, but also the downside of making riposte a lot weaker. A shame really, since it was the most entertaining of the deeds in my play experience, and it was the only reason I could come up with for attempting opportune parry on a high-Dex, high-AC swash.

I suppose I'm not being entirely fair on the Dex/Str front, as the newly reworded Swashbuckler's Finesse means Dervish Dance is that much easier to get. Really, I can't see Jason's misgivings about dex-to-damage, which is already in the CORE game (because gunslingers needed that so much). There are more than a few DD characters in PFS, and so far the game hasn't exploded (to my knowledge, anyway). Removing pommel swipe as written also takes something away that Str-based swashbucklers were better at.

I really like the swashbuckler's grace ability, and it probably sets up rogues better than swift superior feint, although I can see some very narrow scenarios where the renamed feint deed might possibly be useful. Anyway, grace is an actual nod towards maneuverability, since trying to get your full move in around CR10+ monsters can be pretty difficult, even in the d20 skill system.

Kip-up is nice, and it is a nod towards mobility of a sort. I have no strong feelings about it one way or the other.

Dizzying Defense has some language issues, since I'm pretty sure fighting defensively is not an action. Either way, at least you can still use opportune parry while using it now.

Targeted Strike is just as meh as before, although the language is better. I'm not very excited by it, but I suppose there is the odd scenario where it could be worth giving up several attacks to place a minor condition on an enemy... maybe... I mean, that confused enemy you have to be in base contact with still has a 50% chance of hitting you, but that is worth your iterative attacks and the extra damage that panache could have purchased... yeah... Maybe if the head shot was blinded for 1 round it could be useful, or if this deed wasn't a full-round action.

Pommel Swipe is gone, and I can totally understand. If you weren't adding any of your class bonuses the attack was pretty ineffectual, but if it did add all of your class bonuses than it was the greatest deed ever, played with the action economy in a way that made darting in and out of combat somewhat worthwhile, and generally too good for the devs to give to the class. Especially since I get a high "don't rock the boat" vibe (that could just be me, though).

Precise Strike, still the greatest blessing and greatest curse of this class. Realistically, it makes most of the other deeds tough to use since they will probably not have worth level-to-damage impact. It isn't clear enough about using two hands on a one-handed piercing weapon, either. It is a great add that makes the damage pretty good in optimal situations, even though it really just makes up for the fighting style, and therefore makes any other changes seem too good. All of this is opinion, but I get the feeling that this class gets a lot of "features" to offset the limitations instituted by the class and then doesn't get many features that enhance it because then it is "getting" too much.

The new Swashbuckler's Finesse makes 1st level Dex builds playable. The counting as weapon finesse bit certainly helps out Dervish Dance, which the devs seem to wish didn't exist or at least seem to pretend doesn't. The bit about qualifying for Combat Expertise (which is really only good for Stalwart) with Charisma would be cool if it also let you get the various maneuver feats. I think that was the intention (easily cleaned up in language), so I'm not going to blast that one.

I think I like the Charmed Life option. Again, I haven't tested anything yet, and these are first impressions, but I think it saves Charisma from becoming a dump stat. I'm not entirely sure yet, but I do know that I like it a lot better than Bravery. I don't even care about it stacking with Divine Grace, since paladins already have amazing saves anyway--I'm not dipping 2 levels of this class so I can go from great to greater 3 times a day. I mean, if I'm playing a Dex-based pally than I'm probably an archer, not a sub-optimal weapon finesse smiter of evil.

Questions that need answering:
I had some pretty specific questions in my playtest thread, one of which I'm pretty positive I know the answer to, another which is no longer necessary, and one that is still very important. So I guess it is really just one question with a baked in follow up, but the LotR quote seemed necessary.

If I have 0 panache at the beginning of a round, get a critical threat on my first attack, and then confirm that crit, do I add my level to damage via the precise strike deed? I'm pretty sure I do, but it would be nice if it were addressed. Additionally, say I had 1 point out of a maximum panache pool of 2 at the beginning of a round. If I confirm the critical hit, do I have the second panache point to use a swift action for double precise strike damage? As written, I think I do, which means that the "doesn't double on a crit" is somewhat neutralized if you still have a swift action.

While I'm here:

@googleshng: That first post of yours is great. I mostly agree with you. The second post mentions a few things even I think are too good. Getting Power Attack without having the 13 STR in addition to Dex-to-damage (which I would push to 5th like gunslingers, possibly 6th) completely takes away any need for Strength beyond encumbrance, which is easily fixed for 2,000gp, and two skill rolls, which is easily fixed by gaining levels. Power Attack is worth investing the resources for a 13 STR. And characters that build that way would be rewarded, even on a Dex-to-damage class.

@Westly Roberts: The stacked bonuses thing is pretty simple, man. TYPE. A bard can cast Good Hope on you and also use Inspire Courage. You get both because one is luck and the other is morale. I don't really see how hard that is. Since Charmed life is untyped (although that may change by final printing--I'm hoping it doesn't), it stacks with anything. If a paladin wants to use a suboptimal fighting style (or worse, just burn two levels to get Charmed Life) so he can make his already awesome saves even better a few times a day, more power to them. That is all I'm going to say on that subject, however, as it is off topic.

@Jiggy: the Morningstar is a one-handed piercing weapon and was able to be used with Swashbuckler's Finesse in the first version as well as this one. No Slashing Grace feat required.

@Hayato Ken: Morningstar IS a one handed piercing weapon. So is a heavy pick and a trident. No built in finesse on cutlasses though.

@BigNorseWolf: I also agree with you on a lot of stuff.

@Caydence Delholme: That dwarf is actually quite good. Just max out STR and CON and ditch Cha. Keep Dex at a respectable 12 or 14. You basically lose charmed life, but you can two-hand that waraxe for a boatload of damage against enemies that take precision. Admittedly, Charmed Life seems neat so I can see your hesitation about dumping the stat, but you will be a very effective "fighter with tricks," which is what I fear this class is going to settle for (see above comment about "don't rock the boat" mentality).

@Neo2151: I'm with you, they should just make a swashbuckler weapon group and be done with it. A group that probably doesn't include morningstars and starknives, but does include longswords and cutlasses.

@Lemmy: you can always take the Irrepressible trait to get Cha instead of Wis for saves vs. charm and compulsion. That said, you are correct that if Dex-to-damage was so amazing, Dervish Dance would have overrun everything in PFS... so far as I can tell, most fighters and barbarians and paladins still aren't doing it. Just my experience, though. I do agree that this still comes up a little short on the Dex fighter promise. Still just a first impression, though.

@MechE: As usual, I disagree with your idea of a good trade. In a one-v-one duel, I'm pretty sure your outlook is better than mine, but in a group-v-monsters skirmish, getting the bad guys to a point where they can't hurt anybody is much more important than keeping just yourself in good shape. Heck, my barb I'm playing in Carrion Crown right now has a 7AC when raging and doesn't even bother wearing armor (waste of money). I'm going to take Come and Get Me in a few levels as well, giving opponents a +4 to hit my 7AC (might be 6 by then). Works out alright when I'm swinging like a freight train.

@DiegoV: Don't let MechE try to push you around, you're on to something there.

That's all of my thoughts for now. I'm sure I'll be all over this thread just like the last one. Hope to playtest this ASAP so I can give you more enlightened thoughts.

Knifechief wrote:

I didn't even really mean that I think it's a weak power (although I do), I just meant that I think more specific feedback is more useful than broad generalizations.

So, you're entire ranting post basically boils down to "Hey, being vague is bad, say something more specific"? And you don't recognize the irony in that argument? As you are not criticizing any thing specific, you're vaguely saying you didn't like how pointed the comments were? Seriously?

Dude,

For a guy who freaked out when he perceived that his opinion was being blasted or misconstrued in a disrespectful way, perhaps you should consider the way you respond to others. Your frustration made me feel genuinely upset for my role in having helped cause it, but the tone of your posts since then have still been very... let's say stubborn and aggressive. This post in particular is WAAY more vitriolic than anything Tels or I wrote, yet it is OK when you do it?

Take a moment before you hit Submit Post next time for a few breaths and think: how would this make YOU feel.

If you can't take the heat, stop throwing fire.

EDIT: As an addendum, this post of yours was replying to Knifechief toning down his original statement in an almost apologetic manner as response to your, shall we say, passionate post. Yet that is the way you handle the olive branch.

SECOND EDIT: Turns out I can't spell edit...

Stephen Radney-MacFarland wrote:

Rynjin wrote:

mdt wrote:

So, what I"ve learned from this thread.

1) The developers only want playtests using the CRB and 15pt buy, and anyone who posts anything form an actual game is going to be slammed for it.
...

3) 15pt buy is 'the standard' in Pathfinder, despite what the CRB says, and anyone who uses 20pt (or god forbid dice rolls!) is playing the game wrong, including PFS.

The devs have never said either of these things, by the by. Just ignore anyone who says so.

Yeah. I know the first one is not true. The second one is just a strange statement in general.

FWIW, I recommended CRB and 15 PB, as it helps minimize the variables. But last I checked, I wasn't a part of the Pathfinder Design Team, and if you guys hired me and didn't tell me, I'm gonna be a bit miffed.

If they tell you they might have to pay you, much better for them this way.

So, what I"ve learned from this thread.

1) The developers only want playtests using the CRB and 15pt buy, and anyone who posts anything form an actual game is going to be slammed for it.

2) Theory crafting is vital and massively more important than actual playtesting in a real game.

3) 15pt buy is 'the standard' in Pathfinder, despite what the CRB says, and anyone who uses 20pt (or god forbid dice rolls!) is playing the game wrong, including PFS.

I'll just bow out of any playtesting now, since I obviously can't do anything right for these purposes, as I play real games, with real people, using the rules in the CRB. Don't know what I was thinking that that was useful. *shrug*

I was going to just PM you about this, but I'll say it for everyone to read so you know I'm sincere. I apologize if I have in some way contributed to frustrating you this much. I am assuming it has to be myself and/or Tels by the wording of your first point. It was never my intent to offend, simply to disagree. Looking back I can see that maybe my "sad panda (keeping it eastern themed)" line could be misinterpreted, and for that I am sorry. I make the sad panda reference a lot and the wakizashi discussion made me think "oh hey, pandas are from Asia," so I tried (failing as usual) to be funny, and now I see that could be taken as a slight at your game, which it really isn't. Or perhaps my language was too aggressive while framing my disagreement. It is very difficult to convey tone in text, but I promise you there was no malice or disrespect intended.

The only wrong way to play Pathfinder is a way that isn't fun.

The only reason the point buy thing is even relevant to this discussion is because, for the purposes of comparison, it is easier if everything starts the race at the same starting line. It has nothing to do with there being a "right" or "wrong" way of playing the game. Tels and I are sticking with 15pt because that is the expected power level for APs, and many more are going with 20pt because that is the power level of PFS. Neither is correct. Neither is incorrect. Neither in any way invalidates rolling dice for stats, which you are correct in pointing out are highlighted as standard in the CRB for the pathfinder game (I've been playing in Adventure Paths so long I forgot about that--plus, my group likes point buy so that nobody can get burned by bad dice rolls, but that is simply a personal preference to be decided by each gaming group and in no way a "better" or "more correct" option).

As to the second point, I don't think anyone on this thread is saying that theorycrafting is more important than playtesting, or that playtesting is more important than theorycrafting (well, the devs appear to be saying the second one). Please keep in mind that many of us here have playtested the class as well. I can't know for sure, but I also think that many of the people posting here have read a lot of the playtest posts because we really want this class to be awesome--I myself recognized yours by your description immediately from reading it previously.

As a final attempt to explain how I operate, I'll use MechE as an example. My disagreements with MechE, whom I think is alright people by the way he (pretty sure it's a he, VERY sorry if I'm mistaken) frames his arguments, are in no way personal. I don't agree with him, but that doesn't mean I don't like him. We simply look at things a different way and value different things over others. We are also both (borderline annoyingly) passionate about it--one of the reasons I like debating with him. I like to think he isn't meaning to disrespect me in any way just like I would never wish to disrespect him. Even so, sometimes the way we both write things could probably be interpreted otherwise, but I just remind myself that he is a passionate fan of the game just like I am. And so it is a similar case with you, mdt. My disagreement with your declaration based upon the sample size was nothing personal, simply my opinion based upon your post. I meant no disrespect. I was just voicing a different opinion, and I am sorry if it made you think yours wasn't just as important.

Again, I apologize if I have offended you. It was truly unintentional.

Finally got a chance to play one of these without running the monsters myself! I convinced Lord_Malkov into coming over several hours before our regular Carrion Crown game back on Tuesday and began to run this class through the paces.

Anyone who has been following the Swashbuckler discussion thread knows where I stand on most of this stuff, but I really wanted to see Panache in action.

First, our swashbuckler! Since most of my gaming over the last 2 years has been running or playing in adventure paths, I had 15 point buy. I wasn't planning on using the standard array, but it just worked out that way. For books, we used all of the core hardcovers. I decided to build a well-rounded swash with Extra Panache so that I could try out as many deeds as possible.

I chose level 7 because it is a nice level where most classes have access to the majority of their abilities and you can really get a feel for how they play. APL 7 also gives a nice variety of encounter selections.

Alright! So to begin the adventure Jack needed some friends. Seeing as how I am an old-school gamer, the classic foursome will always be Cleric/Fighter/Thief(ahem)Rogue/Wizard. As the swashbuckler is an alternate fighter class, it seemed fitting to put Jack into that slot. So to round us out we have the iconics from the NPC Codex, modified to 15pt buy. I'm calling them Kyra-lite, Merisiel-lite, and Ezren-lite.

The Quest
Let me explain. No, there is too much. Let me sum up. The prince's bride-to-be has been kidnapped and Jack has to rescue her! This requires going through the Ogre Woods, over the Rolling Plains, and into the Evil Sorcerer's Tower!

The encounter selection was planned to give a variety of situations and give Jack some times to shine and some times to struggle. The other thing we wanted to see was how the party would hold up over the course of several encounters. We figured that four fights without resting would be a good sample to see how the class does over the course of th adventuring day.

At this point the rest of our gaming group arrived and we went on to finish Broken Moon, where my awesome varisian fortune-teller was cheap shot by a circle of death. Really soured my night. Anyway, I had to con/beg/harass my girlfriend (who plays in the Carrion Crown group, but doesn't see the point of playtesting swashbucklers) into helping out for the rest of the playtest later. It was at this time that I realized Jack's AC should be 27.

THE BIG IMPORTANT QUESTION THAT CAME UP SEVERAL TIMES
When exactly do you get the panache point for a critical hit? This can be very important in multiple situations. The one that came up for me a few times was with Precise Strike. It is pretty obvious it would come up with Bleeding Wound at later levels as well.

EXAMPLE:
Jack has 0 panache in his pool. He then confirms a critical hit against an Ogre. Does he gain that panache right when the critical hit is confirmed? Since this is before the damage roll, Jack then gets to add his level to damage via Precise Strike since he now has one point of panache. Even better, he can take a swift action to double up on Precise Strike. At 11th this can be used to fuel Bleeding Wound instantly as well. I think this is the way it works, but it would be nice to have some clarification.

ANOTHER IMPORTANT QUESTION
What do I add to Pommel Swipe attacks? Do I get Precise Strike? I am still attacking with a one-handed piercing weapon... sort of. One way to interpret it is that it is an entirely different "weapon" (which explains the line about being proficient in it). If that is the case, Pommel Swipe is just one more thing Str-based swashbucklers will be better at, since the weapon is bludgeoning and doesn't gain the benefits of Swashbuckler's Weapon Finesse, Swashbuckler's Weapon Training, any weapon feats, or Precise Strike. You can still apply Str modifiers and Power Attack though! Additionally, if you cannot use your various weapon abilities and feats on this attack, that means they will not apply to the combat maneuver roll... which is another feather in Strength's cap (sans Agile Maneuvers). I guess what I'm trying to figure out is if this deed is either great, because it can lead to other, worthwhile attacks, or a bad use of panache, because the extra attack will be very ineffective--unless I'm not a Dex/Cha swashbuckler, in which case it can still be mildly effective.

A NOT THAT IMPORTANT QUESTION THAT CAME UP ONCE
Can Jack use Acrobatics to avoid attacks of opportunity when using the Recovery deed? I think the answer is no because the Acrobatics skill mentions being part of a move action, which Recovery isn't. If not, I would like to suggest that it should be. I'm already spending a panache and an immediate action.

PANACHE
I like the panache concept, although the heavy tax of swift/immediate actions make using it difficult, and the less-than-effective Opportune Parry/Riposte experience makes me think that I'd be less likely to play the swashbuckler that way in the future. As a side note, I would be even less likely to use Opportune Parry/Riposte if it cost an immediate action. There are already a bunch of options that require swift and immediate actions, that, unfortunately, marginalize many deeds that would otherwise be cool. I only used Menacing Swordplay when I was completely out of panache (well, expendable panache) even though it is, in my opinion, a very neat deed. Spending the last panache point wasn't even a consideration (else every fight could have turned out like the last one) until Precise Strike didn't mean anything. Considering how much one must invest to get a decent panache pool, and how expensive the 1st level deeds are, I think the way the pool is calculated should be altered. I like 1+CHA modifier (minimum 0), but that is just me.

I thought I might use Swift Feint a few times to set up the rogue, but it was hard to justify a standard action when I had any panache in the pool and could be swinging instead. The time I would have loved to use it was against the huge fire elemental, as getting around to flank that thing is tough, but since it is immune to precision damage, there really wasn't a point.

Opportune Parry and Riposte were no good to me at all. Part of this was due to bad dice rolls, but through 12 attempts, Opportune Parry turned exactly zero hits into misses. I was able to attempt 3 Ripostes, but rolled poorly on all three attacks. That said, I don't think that Riposte is bad at all, since it was always exciting when the panache was there to do it. So while I think Opportune Parry needs some work, Riposte is a blast.

THE BLESSING AND CURSE OF PRECISE STRIKE
This deed does a few things that both enhance the class and hold them back. For one, spending the last panache point was never an option, because losing 7 damage a swing cannot be made up for by anything else you can spend that point on. It does, however, make up for the limiting fighting style that the deed itself forces upon the swashbuckler--which is nice because otherwise one-handed weapons without shield and/or TWF feats is a weak choice. In the scenarios where Precise Strike was applicable, the damage was comparable to fighters and I felt pretty good about Jack contributing to the party. The scenarios where it was not applicable, the damage dropped off precipitously and I felt like Jack was no better at combat than Merisiel-lite. The promise of spending panache to get even more damage always seems to win out over any other deed, which makes sense since the martial is supposed to kill enemies and absorb attacks, and no other deed contributes to that as well as Precise Strike. And so when panache was available to spend, there was really very little question as to what it should be spent on, even though I stubbornly tried to talk myself into other choices. The damage swing of this deed is also large enough that it may prevent any other much needed changes to the class, such as anything to make the Dex/Cha build the most effective build for filling the role of the group's martial character. Even though my math says that Precise Strike, assuming that it is clarified about not swinging weapons two-handed, really only makes up for not being able to swing a two-handed weapon or use two-weapon fighting. Part of why I thought it was so brilliant when I initially read it over--just like how Nimble seems like a great ability when it is just compensation for not wearing heavy armor. Giving players the same effect while making it seem as though they are getting cool stuff is a great idea that helps promote a style a play up to an effective level, and it gives out shiny stuff at various levels that I can write on my character sheet. That said, I hope the designers remember that these "boosts," are, effectively, just trade-offs that add up to the same sum, and don't go nuts over how other abilities cannot possibly be worked in because of all the other "boosts" in the list.

OVERALL CONCLUSION
My views on the swashbuckler remain mostly unchanged. The end result is that two party members died in the last fight, due in no small part to Jack's inability to prevent the fire elemental from killing them. Obviously, the last encounter was set up to be difficult, but it wasn't a batch of rare monsters. I did not feel ridiculously powerful when smacking ogres around (which was chosen to let the swash shine), but I did feel incredibly impotent fighting through the last encounter (which was chosen to make the swash squirm).

The main issue is that I am still in the firm belief that a Str-based swashbuckler who dumps Cha will be far superior in combat. I will make a point to run the same encounters with one as soon as I can. I cannot stress how much I want this class to mechanically support the class description. There is absolutely a place for a Dex-based fighter in Pathfinder, but I simply cannot see it happening unless something is done to make Dex the best way for a swashbuckler to go. Something tells me I won't suffer the frustration of that elemental fight if I go Strength and play a "fighter with some tricks."

APPENDIX 1: THIS IDEA THAT I HAD THAT I'M HOPING PAIZO ALREADY DID AND ARE PLANNING TO IMPLEMENT
Fencing Style feats!!! How great would it be to recreate the Inigo/Man-in-black duel IN GAME! How badly do I want to use Orisini's Defense? Very badly. Basically just style feats that grant deeds or modify deeds or otherwise enhance particular fighting styles. From Edge of Anarchy we know that the Orisini Fencing Style is free hand with a rapier, for example. There are a lot of opportunities to make some very neat options here, and they can help make weapons with lower critical threat ranges equally desirable.

APPENDIX 2: BEGGING THE DESIGNERS FOR DEX/CHA BUILDS TO BE THE BEST MECHANICALLY
Please please please! I want this to work so bad it hurts. I know that I've been hyper-critical over on the class discussion thread, and I apologize if I've been a little insensitive to you designers, who I know are good people that put out some pretty great products. That thread has a multitude of suggestions (some of which are even worthy of consideration) to make this happen, though I fear greatly that Dex to damage may be the only sure-fire way to do it, and even though Gunslingers get this ability and don't have to stand in melee range, it is apparently way to overpowered for another class, intended to be the Dex fighter and based heavily upon the one that gets it, to have. I don't necessarily want Dex to damage, I just don't see another way to make Dex a better choice than Str for a melee character. I promise I am completely open to other ideas. Please save this class! Also, while I'm at it, please don't let this class fail just because of multi-classing! The greatest design success of Pathfinder over 3.5 (imo) was retooling the classes so that I really do not want to leave it for another one. Rather than spend so much time worrying about the swashbuckler being a dip class for Dex fighters, why not just make it the most attractive class for Dex fighters? Please, you can't know how much I want this concept to be realized.

This may have been covered previously and if I so apologize. My group is getting ready for a playtest this weekend on Saturday and the swashbuckler player approached me regarding something that I found utterly baffling as he was building the character. Specifically Opportune Parry and Riposte.

Both are granted at first level and take 1 point of panache and one use of attack of opportunity for the round. Unless the character has taken combat expertise first level, the second is useless to him since he won't have the 2nd attack of opportunity to ever take advantage of it.

They are already spending two panache (which is already a very limited resource) so this seems excessive to me. In my opinion, it looks like the swashbuckler should either get combat expertise as a bonus feat or riposte shouldn't cost the attack of opportunity (just the point of panache to execute it).

If I'm missing something, please let me know as this really threw me for a loop.

You didn't miss anything. Without Combat Reflexes Riposte, as written, cannot be done. You can, however, try the even more unsatisfying option that the development team appears to be leaning towards and make Riposte an immediate action instead of an attack of opportunity. Or just give up on the whole thing and build a dwarf with high strength, mediocre dexterity, no charisma, and then wreck face two-handing a heavy pick... /sigh

Tels already took a crack at this one, but I like complaining, so here we go.

Kairos Dawnfury wrote:

Just realized if we're allowed to take Gunslinger feats, I can tank CHA back down, put those points in STR and CON and grab Extra Grit once or Twice.

-8 Cha + Extra Grit = 3 Grit
Vs
14 Cha = 2 Grit

The problem with this plan is that the class has Deeds you'd actually want to use on a regular basis. Many commentators are planning on going with moderate to high amounts of Charisma AND picking up an "Extra Panache" feat. If you dump Charisma you're deciding on not using your deeds until the middle levels, when most builds will be able to afford picking up Extra Panache multiple times.

I'll agree that there are some deeds that are neat and I would want to use, but that if I am trading my effectiveness for them I won't. Here's the list of Deeds that cost Panache:

Derring-Do: Not bad at low level, before the d20 skill system breaks down. The random nature of it, however, makes it a tough spend as long as I'm deciding to do it before the roll. I can see myself using this at lower levels.

Opportune Parry: Man, I want this to be worth it. Let's face it, without finesse at level 1, Dex-based swashbucklers can't use this for a whole level anyway. I haven't playtested this enough, but I REALLY want this to be good. Some initial reports I've read, however, say it is not very good. I want to think I would use this all of the time, but I don't think I would unless I had already been swung at by a creature at least once at high level since the attack bonus get pretty crazy.

Riposte: Well, if I happen to have Combat Reflexes and I'm a Dex-based swash, this might come up once in awhile. If I have a pool of at least 3 panache and the chance comes up to use this deed I'm absolutely doing it, but it is situational. I started out loving this when I first read the class, but I'm having some trouble with the 2 Panache + 2 AoO cost.

Recovery: Looks good on a gunslinger, why not a melee character? Honestly, the worst part of this deed is Opportune Parry--seems like if I'm going to spend a panache to save myself, I'm probably better off betting on my attack roll over 2 extra AC. I'd rather replace this with Gunslinger's Dodge. Never going to use this.

Precise Strike: This seems to be the runaway favorite deed for panache expenditure, but considering it is the surest bet, that makes sense. Using this all the time.

Pommel Swipe: I personally like this one, but I can see how it would quickly get drowned out by Precise Strike. Also, I'm assuming I don't get my passive Precise Strike boost to damage because it is the pommel and the feat calls out bludgeoning damage--but this should be clarified since it is technically an attack with a one-handed piercing weapon. Sort of a "gunslinger copy/paste" issue. If you get your damage bonuses to this it is the greatest Deed ever, so I'm assuming you don't. If I get all of my damage, I will use this almost exclusively. Since I'm 95% sure I don't, I will use it in fights with multiple enemies that seem kinda tough and won't die quickly if I just spend the point on Precise Strike.

Targeted Strike: If only it wasn't a full-round action. Making this a standard action would be awesome, but otherwise I'm trading attacks for negligible status effects. Don't know if you ever played/played with/ran for a Gunslinger, but try to recall how often this got used. If the bad guy is holding the "big button" I will use this, but otherwise I'm just swinging. If this were a standard action, I would use it a lot.

Bleeding Wound: Now we're talking. This is a deed that makes you want to use it AND rewards Dexterity. Need more of these. I can definitely see myself using this deed a lot if I have leftover Panache after Precise Strike.

Dizzying Defense: Or as I like to call it, Dizzying Logic. So I can spend a swift action and a Panache to Total Defense so that I cannot use Opportune Parry or prevent any enemies from running around me to murder my party. Fantastic. This one does not seem well thought out, unless Opportune Parry does not fall under any of the normal AoO restrictions--I suppose Opportune Parry's phrasing is "expend one use of an AoO" and "The Swashbuckler makes an attack roll as if she were making an attack of opportunity." Riposte is absolutely not going to happen. This is the one time I can justify using Recovery! Perhaps change this to spending 1 Panache and a swift action to reduce/negate the penalties for fighting defensively? Is there some category beyond never use?

Perfect Thrust: Usually by 15th level I'll have a weapon that gets around a lot of DR, but I suppose since it gets through whacky stuff like DR/bludgeoning and DR/epic and DR/-. Another good way around DR, of course, is to add 15 to damage (or more as you advance beyond 15th level) with Precise Strike.

Cheat Death: This deed is what it is. Fun, but if you're using it you will probably need it again very quickly. That said, spending the panache beats dying!

Deadly Stab: For a 19th level ability I'm not sure how I feel about this one. The death attack is great, and I can still apply a critical feat effect (in case they save) if I'm reading it correctly. That said, you don't earn the Panache for the critical hit. So I guess if I'm not too interested in the other deeds, this is a good one.

Stunning Stab: 2 Panache to stun lock? Not bad. Stunning Critical has a tougher save DC at 19th, but the fact that you can do this without the crit is very nice. I would use this in some situations.

How much damage and durability are you willing to spend for these options. How many HP per level? How much lost damage per round? How low of a Will save? Ultimately, in order to fill the fighter role, the swashbuckler needs to be good at killing enemies while not being killed for as long as possible. Of the deeds that I would want to use on a regular basis, how many would I be willing to give up for a couple HP / level and a few points of damage on every swing? And when I can take one feat (Extra Panache) so that I don't have to give them up, why would I make the sacrifice? 7 CHA is the best way, mechanically, to build a swashbuckler, and I hate it.

Just realized if we're allowed to take Gunslinger feats, I can tank CHA back down, put those points in STR and CON and grab Extra Grit once or Twice.

-8 Cha + Extra Grit = 3 Grit
Vs
14 Cha = 2 Grit

And if that doesn't help explain what is wrong with this class, I don't know what will. Sadly, you would be better served to tank CHA for that extra STR and CON. Until this class encourages making great Dex/Cha fighters (within the rules, not just in the description) it isn't doing it right.

To Maxximilius:

If I have this correctly, you're arguing against Dex to damage because it narrows the range of competent Swashbuckler builds into just Dex fighters.

May I remind you that this class is billed as the Dex melee fighter, so if everyone is a Dex build they probably did it right. If you want versatility, the Fighter class already exists. This class is aiming for a particular niche, and it has to be able to do it better than a fighter or a rogue for the class to have any reason to exist.

If every Swashbuckler is pigeonholed into a Dex build the class is doing what it is supposed to. Right now my 5 CHA / 10 DEX dwarf swashbuckler (Grumpy MacGrumperson) is wrecking face with a heavy pick and full plate (the only class feature you lose for not wearing light armor is Nimble, and I suppose 2 bonus feats to get to heavy). So far, he's doing an immensely better job than my Dex/Cha builds if I only use the Core books (no Agile weapons or Dervish Dance). That gives you the "versatility" of builds I suppose, but it also goes against everything this class is supposed to be.

Perhaps I have misinterpreted you, but my point remains valid. Hoping to get some serious playtesting in with my brother before Thanksgiving so I can try out some more realistic scenarios.

I have spent some time digesting the Swashbuckler and have several thoughts. I'll admit I haven't been able to keep up with the volume of posts on this thread (god bless you Mr. Reynolds), and I know some of what I am going to say has already been covered (and I'll comment on some of that, too).

I want to make sure I get one thing clear: I think the design concept is fantastic. Panache for deeds is awesome! Love it! Parry and Riposte are very cool, and much better than the Duelist. I understand the Combat Reflexes feat tax is necessary with the Signature Deed feat available, otherwise this ability would likely get out of hand. Perhaps some of the other people posting are not considering that the panache cost for this can be reduced (although I suppose that is another feat tax).

Things That Seem Missing
Where is the acrobatic charge deed? This class is already stealing half of the Duelist prestige class, I see absolutely NO reason why I can't spend a Panache to make a swinging chandelier charge. Cleary a development oversight. Obviously, since you spend Panache to do it, it would have to be exempted from the Daring Act optional rule. But seriously devs, watch a swashbuckler movie and make this happen.

Also, there is very little to support the charm and wit of a typical swashbuckler character. The Menacing Swordplay deed is all I have to work with. How about something akin to the Charming social trait while you have at least 1 Panache. The bonus isn't much, but it adds a ton of style.

Having watched many, many swashbuckling films, I feel that the swashbuckler's battlefield awareness and presence of mind is not represented that well. Even in the most chaotic situations, a true swashbuckler always has a witty comment and a new outrageous stunt up his sleeve to turn the tide of fate.

Concerns
Looking at this class from the perspective of gunslinger/fighter hybrid, I see some serious shortfalls. The Gunslinger is capable of much more damage and doesn't have to stand within reach of that big monster. The fighter can load up on armor and has many more feats to optimize their fighting style, which will likely be based on Strength and therefore deal more damage (keeping in mind that Precise Strike is situational--wouldn't help much in the Carrion Crown game I'm in currently).

The stat distribution is tricky. On the surface, it is just Dex and Cha, but if I want Combat Expertise for fancy maneuver feats or any kind of AC I have to get myself to 13 Int, and if I want to deal any sort of damage against a skeleton I need at least a 13 Str for Power Attack. The Will save is poor so Wisdom cannot be tanked or I may as well just run from every caster, and as a melee character with little to no armor (and no buckler thanks to the wording in Precise Strike), and having a pitiful Fort save, Con becomes very valuable. Hopefully some of these issues can be mitigated.

What I would change and why
I would add an acrobatic charge deed as mentioned above, and I'm a little shocked that it wasn't already in there.

May as well jump on the train: the weak Fort and Will saves are crippling. I don't have to tell the devs what the save DCs are for CR10 creatures in the various Bestiary books. I've already resigned myself to never getting to wear the amazingly fun Cape of the Mountebank because I have to wear a CoR just to assure I stay in the fight, but a weak Will save goes against everything I know about swashbucklers. If the class cannot have a strong Will save (understandable), please consider what many others have suggested and trade out Bravery for adding Charisma to Will saves in addition to Wisdom ala Divine Grace. It enforces the swashbuckler charm and force of personality, and still makes tanking Wisdom unwise (sorry, had to). Obviously, one design habit I have noticed in Pathfinder is that they like to have something on the Special line for every level of a class (or let the blank ones fall on new spell levels). I admit it does make gaining levels even more fun. Taking Bravery out would certainly leave some blanks, but that is easily resolved by spreading the deeds around more. Perhaps by adding acrobatic charge! Or by spreading out the Evasive deed bonuses over multiple deeds.

All aboard the next train! Gunslingers get Dex to damage and only have to hit touch AC... from several squares away... and they can full-attack all the time. I'm not asking for the Swashbuckler to beat that, but there has to be something to shorten the gap. Obviously, there are a ton of posts on here complaining about the Swashbuckler's Finesse and the price to go get Dervish Dance. There is also the Agile weapon enchantment (that mysteriously did not make the Ultimate Equipment Guide). All I'm saying is that if Precise Strike isn't going to work all of the time (and I understand why it wouldn't), there have got to be some ways to make the Swashbuckler get close to Gunslinger/Fighter damage since there is little way I can see to make the class as durable. Any move towards this would help the difficult stat distribution. So whether it is working in Dexterity instead of Strength to damage like gunslingers within the Swashbuckler's Finesse ability, or go the other way and use Charisma instead of Constitution for hit points instead of Constitution to increase durability.

While I'm on the topic of Swashbuckler's Finesse, please make it a 1st level ability. Level 1 should not be a chore. Even Merisiel doesn't wait until her 2nd-level option to take finesse rogue because she doesn't want to suck at stabbing people for a whole level. If it has to be modified to avoid dipping, so be it. Although I have found that the best enemy of multi-class extravaganza in PFRPG has been clever design of neat capstone abilities throughout the class along with archtypes.

Let me use a buckler and Precise Strike. Also let me use it with light off-hand weapons as well, only the damage would just apply to the main-hand for the sake of balance. I hate having a class ability that limits the other options I have FROM THAT CLASS.

Free Combat Expertise! Or possibly, an exemption from requiring 13 Int to get Combat Expertise! Not only would Combat Expertise help improve the Swashbuckler's durability, handing it out for free at some point and allowing it to be used as a prerequisite for stylish maneuver feats means that you aren't stuck trying to come up with a 13 Int while keeping Dex and Cha at a high level and Con and Will to a point where you have a snowball's chance of making a saving throw and not get killed in a single round of combat with a strong melee creature. Did I mention the desire to go for 13 Str so you can Power Attack to keep up with the Gunslinger and Fighter--especially against undead? I realize I'm beating the stat dependency like a dead horse, so I'll just stop there.

The point of all this rambling
As of now, the end result of the Swashbuckler is a much cooler, but less durable and less potent class than either of it's two progenitors. Ideally, the Swashbuckler needs a way to narrow stat dependency to primarily Dexterity and Charisma. Otherwise it won't even be able to shine in the areas it is supposed to. Right now, it seems tough on 20 point buy let alone 15.

I love the Paizo team, and I have full faith that many of my concerns will be addressed. I hope this giant wall of text wasn't a complete waste of time for the devs.

/endrant

Having used the Sound Striker archtype on Ileosa for this encounter, I will offer the one downside I found. Every simulacrum firing off ten weird words is a boatload of dice rolling. There is virtually no way to speed this up to a reasonable pace. It was brutally effective, but the game bogged down to a crawl, making it a bit tricky to keep the epic mood going.

I do like the three stage fight idea, though. If I ever run CoCT for a third group I'll probably give that a try.

The best tip already came from MrVergee, but I will stress one other tidbit. I have run this adventure path to completion for two groups now, and there is one thing that I learned the first time around. The adventure as written goes: the characters assemble, go raid the fishery, Korvosa is in flames.

My first group never got to know what Korvosa was like before the anarchy. The sense of attachment was bad. A few of them weren't really sure why their characters would want to save the city. So the next time I ran it, I expanded Lamm's organization and had the PCs taking it down piece by piece, focusing a lot on the shiver dealing the book suggests he's involved in. This gave the party almost two weeks of game time to "meet" Korvosa and allowed me to casually introduce lots of NPCs and locations. The Old Fishery was a bit anti-climactic after a fight against alchemists in a shiver lab with only thin glass separating everyone from hundreds of dream spiders, but Gaedren is out of his prime anyway.

I also invented some NPCs (neighbors, shopkeepers, etc.) so that there were a multitude of storytelling outlets. A few sentences can say a lot:

--A barmaid proudly telling the party it's her last night before she joins the Grey Maidens (late book one or early book 2)

--The keeper of a shop the party frequents bemoaning the loss of his wife to plague (book 2).

--A baker showering thanks and muffins on the characters for saving his children from the plague. (early book 3)

--A child, scared and alone, because his parents were taken away for resisting the Blooding (book 6).

--A mother, heartbroken since her daughter was "conscripted" for the Grey Maidens (book 6).

You get the idea. These incidents can still help drive home the evil of Ileosa in a vacuum, but if they come from NPCs that the characters are familiar with, it will build attachment and motivation (beyond XP and loot).

Hope that helps!

Have you ever been at a red light waiting for it to turn green? This is you, actively awaiting something that you KNOW will happen very soon, but you don't know exactly when. Do you ALWAYS start driving the EXACT INSTANT that the light changes? Have you ever taken half a second--maybe even 2 or 3 seconds--to register that the light changed before moving through the intersection? Perhaps you are especially on edge? Maybe you are sneaking forward, watching the other light and waiting to see when it turns red so you know the green light is close. You start cheating forward, but you still can't commit until the light turns. Maybe you've just reapplied the brake when it does turn green, and--despite your efforts--still lose a half-second.

Welcome to initiative rolls in real life. I am 100% behind the OP's way of running things. Not only does it work simply (and avoid that complicated stack of readied actions that Gauss just described), eliminating the flat-footed-until-acts part of combat diminishes the effectiveness of several character options, such as (but not limited to):

High initiative
Sneak Attack
Uncanny Dodge
Combat Reflexes
Defensive Strategist

...and that is just off the top of my head. I'm sure if I thought about it I could come up with many more.

Remember that while it can take several minutes to play out a single round of combat, it is only 6 seconds of game time. And even though actions are executed sequentially, they are assumed to happen (more or less) simultaneously in the game world. So the flat-footed part of combat is probably only indicative of 1 second or less in game terms. Characters who have selected options to avoid this momentary hesitation are rewarded, and characters who don't are occasionally penalized.

The traffic light example above is waiting for an event that will absolutely happen. If two parties are talking, I imagine that there isn't a 100% chance of combat. So it is easy to think that even the most alert might not be on extreme edge after a few minutes of discussion.

Last thing: I would consider readying an action to be the start of combat if the atmosphere is that of a fight about to break out. The ranger who draws, nocks and pulls an arrow to be "ready" to shoot looks an awful lot like a ranger drawing, nocking, and pulling back an arrow to attack immediately. The wizard reaching into his spell component pouch to be "ready" to cast a spell looks a lot like a wizard getting components to cast a spell right now. The bad guys don't know that the ranger or wizard is waiting--they just see the beginning signs of aggressive action. Roll initiative!

Hello again! Glad to hear the party's chat with Bahor went well!

With only 2 NPCs running around, this isn't as bad as it seems. I have run this twice and can offer a giant text wall of ideas (sorry if some of this is repeats of replies on your other post). I am also assuming that you played up Glorio similar to the way I did.

Timing is everything -> Run the whole thing in rounds. This makes it easier to keep track of the bad guys and the rotations. Also, players start thinking in "combat mode" as soon as you go to rounds and running the labyrinth this way should keep them on edge a little. If you like getting into your players' heads like I do, break up their initiative and roll a few dice as if you are running more than two NPCs. Don't take too long, obviously, but an extra pause between some initiative counts gives them time to discuss their options and worry about what you are doing rolling all of those dice back there. You can also use this time to keep your head around where Vimanda and Sivit are in relation to the PCs and the levers.

Fortune favors the prepared -> No doubt you've already done this, but just in case: familiarize yourself with the traps. I scribbled notes and DCs all over a printout of the map (common practice for me) to make sure I could keep the flow of the game moving.

It's a LABYRINTH -> Don't be afraid to have NPCs rotate the dungeon and split the party. Nothing says panic like a squishy PC all alone (even when no threats are imminent). Normally, this is a horrible idea, but if you run the whole thing in rounds it isn't a problem--and the whole map isn't that large so they can't get THAT separated.

Sivit -> I can't add much to Sivit that the book doesn't already. I'll just remind you that Sivit has no love or loyalty for Vimanda, and if she realizes Vimanda is attempting to betray Bahor, she is literally bound to stop her at all costs, and certainly before turning her attention back on the PCs. Vimanda, of course, knows this.

Vimanda -> This villain can be a fun challenge for the party and help verify all of those lies that Bahor told them. It's even more fun if the party still has the raktavarna to cast helpful suggestions like "drop your sword." If the party has the ring of evasion from Bahor, Vimanda can easily track the party with her third eye (it's all the same Blinding Night tradition). I mention this because my conversion did not have locate object. It's her dungeon (all hers in the PCs' minds if that Glorio guy was convincing), so Vimanda knows about all of the traps and all of the symbols (that she is immune to). She doesn't like Sivit, and would like to avoid her if possible.

My basic tips for Vimanda are pretty straightforward: lie, cheat, and kill. She starts off as Vencarlo, and there are a couple things you should do here to play with the PCs.

STEP ONE: LIE (Not-Vencarlo)
She shows up as Vencarlo, and a couple things should happen to clue in the PCs. If Vencarlo was flirting with a particular PC in previous books, have him flirt with the "wrong one" this time (Melyia Arkona would know that Vencarlo is a bit of a Casanova, but not with whom). Then make sure everyone makes their save vs. detect thoughts. Remember: if you pass you only get a "tingly feeling," and the Spellcraft check to recognize this supernatural ability should be beyond anything the party can muster--if they even ask. It will still get the metagame juices flowing, though.

The real hint is Not-Vencarlo's urgent attempts to turn them away from finding Neolandus and towards fighting Glorio. Not-Vencarlo claims that Glorio put him and Neolandus down here and that he must pay. He is a black mark on Korvosa and responsible for unspeakable crimes. Not-Vencarlo has no examples (Vimanda wants the criminal empire for herself, after all), but he may talk about how the Arkonas are known to be involved with smugglers and thieves. It is important that you mention the seneschal here as a helpful hint to the PCs. The best hint, of course, is giving Not-Vencarlo the BlackJack outfit and having him not realize what it is immediately. Also, Not-Vencarlo would rather keep a kukri out than "his" own rapier.

When they ask about rescuing Neolandus, Not-Vencarlo responds that the seneschal can wait, and he would understand if he knew they were going after Glorio. Further questions about the seneschal are met with frustration, non-answers, and insistence that the party move against Glorio. Unlike with Glorio, roll your Bluff checks if the PCs want to Sense Motive. The only answer Not-Vencarlo should give the party is that he knows where Neolandus is and that he is perfectly safe for now (that one is true). He hopes this will comfort them so that they feel good about fighting Glorio. Questions about Melyia Arkona should also be revealing. Not-Vencarlo claims to have not seen her once during his capture.

So far I've had one party discover Not-Vencarlo was not Vencarlo, and another insist upon securing the seneschal's safety before leaving the labyrinth. If the party really does decide to go right for Glorio, Vimanda will lead them right to Bahor, who knows they are coming. As another fiat, maybe Bahor can contact Sivit and attempt to stop Vimanda before she leaves the dungeon.

DISCOVERY IN STEP ONE? LIE SOME MORE!
If Vimanda is discovered at this time, there is no need for her to keep up the Not-Vencarlo act. She admits as much to the party and apologizes for her trickery. She only used Vencarlo's image because she thought the party would be more accepting. She then transforms back to her true form--Melyia Arkona!

Now is when Melyia tries to convince the party that she is also trapped down here... with weapons. Probably a tough sell with what Glorio has told the group (along with the average player's refusal to let go of red herrings). Maybe she can still talk them into abandoning Vencarlo and Neolandus to fight Glorio, but it is unlikely with you rolling those opposed Bluff dice behind the GM screen. She should start accusing Glorio of all the things that he accused her of, plus locking her down in the dungeons. The difference is, the party has heard this all before and it doesn't sound as good a second time. If she gets desperate she can play the rakshasa card, but, since it swings both ways it has to be a last resort (for both Arkonas). Although Vimanda has no intentions of letting the PCs leave the palace alive if they help or not, so she is more willing to tell this truth than Bahor.

STEP TWO: CHEAT (Use the Labyrinth)
If the party insists upon saving the seneschal and still haven't figured Vimanda out yet, have Not-Vencarlo agree to lead the group to them. Then take the party on a merry romp through every trap they haven't hit yet. If the party questions Not-Vencarlo on his directions, he claims to only knows how to get to Neolandus by backtracking exactly--he apologizes if it is not a direct route. Vimanda is really looking for an opportunity to strike the group when it is weak, and the raktavarna will strike as soon as Vimanda does.

This approach is exactly the same if the party has figured out that Vimanda is not really Vencarlo already. DO NOT stand and fight the group. Burn through those javelins, tactically retreat, aim to split the party, and, above all, try to get the PCs to trigger some traps. Also, if Vimanda has no need of all-around vision or the bite and claw attacks, she is better off staying in an alter self Medium size form for the +2 Strength. No need to spoil the Rakshasa secret if she doesn't have to.

DISCOVERY IN STEP TWO: TRY LYING AGAIN!
This should go down the same as in Step One. If she has led the party on a merry, trap-filled romp, however, she may not even get to speak before beginning a fighting retreat through the trapped labyrinth (or as one player of mine put it: the Home Alone method).

STEP THREE: KILL (Divide and conquer)
If Vimanda gets a chance, either as herself, Melyia, or Not-Vencarlo, she will use levers to isolate party members and take them out. If the party is not careful they can suffer some casualties here. If she can lead them around as Not-Vencarlo, mess up some PCs with a trap and cut off one or more, she is going in for the surprise kill.

Aftermath -> There are a lot of ways this can shake out, but if you do it right, a couple things are working in your favor: the party is weakened (the palace guard + the secret temple + the labyrinth + the torturer + a giant reefclaw), they are saddled with Vencarlo and Neolandus who are both in bad shape, and even if they suspect Glorio is a big, bad rakshasa the group probably doesn't want to tangle with him at the moment after messing with the other Arkona. Use these things to subtly point the party towards escape. This is in the party's best interest, because in two tries I haven't had a group leave the labyrinth in any shape to fight Bahor, who is a pretty high CR.

I hope that wasn't as boring as I think it was! I also hope that it is in some way a little helpful in your game. If Bahor makes it through (and he has twice in my games) he becomes a fun antagonist in Crown of Fangs--whether the PCs believe he is a rakshasa or not.

Be careful with detect thoughts, since it allows a saving throw and many players will metagame like crazy even if they don't intend to. So the answer?

Metagame back!

I didn't mention before that the time to detect is while they are waiting (through bloodstone) and while the butler is in the room. Yes, the bloodstone explains why someone could be watching, but you don't want players adding saves and Glorio together, plus they don't know about the bloodstones yet (hopefully they never do). The spell description doesn't say that the target with a successful save is aware of anything, so I don't give any information to the party. Those who succeed feel "a tingle." If they make any inquiries to Glorio, he seems perplexed, but a high Sense Motive roll only reveals that the butler seems uneasy when they mention it--perhaps he changes the subject or conveniently returns with refreshments at that very moment as if he was waiting outside the door. You could even make him obviously interrupt to help sell the plot. Glorio's Bluff skill should be VERY high so PCs don't stand a chance (he is speaking the truth(ish) most of the time, anyway). As a GM fiat, I don't even roll my Bluff vs. the players and just take 10. If you don't roll against their Sense Motive, they won't believe he's lying. If you do roll, they may metagame.

The metagame card works for Vimanda as well! Roll the opposed Bluff checks! Have her detect thoughts while right in front of them (as Vencarlo). Have her speak of Glorio with utter contempt. Remember, Vimanda has had it easy in Korvosa and could have let her Rakshasa guile slip a little while Bahor dealt with all of the politics.

As one last layer of protection for Bahor, Neolandus and Vencarlo really do need to be rescued. And while Vencarlo would happily fight Glorio in any condition, Neolandus is far too important to risk in an unneccessary battle.

If all goes well, Bahor will survive, import a new group of Rakshasa allies (blockades don't mean much to smugglers like the Arkonas), and be in complete control of Old Korvosa upon the PCs return to the city, at which point, he will be looking to replace Ileosa once the PCs get rid of her. His sizable number of armed soldiers and Great Family status can make him a big player in the revolution.

It's even more fun if the players keep the ring of evasion and Bahor knows EVERYTHING about them when they get back to Korvosa.

Now you just need to add some treasure to book 4 (which I personally cannot stand and threw out most of) to keep the party near WBL since they won't be looting the Palace.

I liked having the Gray Maidens as individuals forced into servitude. It makes killing them a little more personal. I've scattered a few incidents of townsfolk telling stories about nice, young women they knew (friend, daughter, niece, etc) being conscripted and never heard from again. This way when the PCs learned how the Gray Maidens were "trained," they almost feel bad about killing so many of them. They also hate Ileosa all the more.

If they are clones it is hard to have compassion. Additionally, it seems less cruel on Ileosa's part because fewer families in Korvosa are affected.

This hatred has already paid dividends, and the party is already planning to find and execute Vavana Dhatri after Ileosa is dealt with, although I will have her escaped far from Korvosa by then so as to end the campaign.

And lastly: I haven't read it fully yet, but if you are planning on runing Shattered Star the Maidens show up in book 2 (where Vavana Dhatri is detailed) and the clone decision might have repercussions.

Just my 2cp.

Alright, here is my Bahor angle:

As written, the impetus to go to Glorio's palace is from Amin Jelento. In fact, I make this connection EXTREMELY obvious to help the PCs out. So they are likely going in with a WHERE'S VENCARLO!? attitude. Also, it seems unlikely that they crash in guns ablazing, so you have their ear.

The way I handle this first encounter is as such:

A servant greets them at the door. He claims that Glorio is in the bath and if they could just wait a moment the Lord Arkona would certainly meet with them. I leave them in a waiting room for ten to fifteen minutes while Bahor spies on them via bloodstones. Now, in your case you want the creepy bath scene, so I suppose you should just bring them on up to the bath! THe reason I went for the wait is so that Bahor could listen in and hopefully notice the lack of refreshments. Either way, I help build Glorio up by having him appear mortified that his servant did not offer any refreshment, literally beg for the players' forgiveness, and then get them whatever food or drink they desire. I like to throw in a "this is difficult to obtain with the quarantine, but for esteemed adventurers such as yourselves it is an honor to serve it." Or some such flattery--which still works on players even if they tell you otherwise.

Next, Glorio makes a point of dismissing the servant from the room. He does this especially when the party drops Vencarlo's or Nealandus' names. He waits until they are definitely gone (I like to hold a "one moment, please" finger up to the PCs to sell it). He then speaks in low voices and claims that the PCs should as well, since you never know who might be listening in this house. This is great because it is totally true, and it casts Glorio as a victim or co conspirator.

He speaks quietly, and honestly (I find facts to be the best weapons of deceit). He also keeps looking at the door in a slightly paranoid way. He only gives away information if asked directly, but he doesn't hold back the important stuff. He admits to knowing where Vencarlo is. He admits to knowing where Neolandus is. He'll claim that he wants to tell them, but, sadly, he cannot help them at the moment. The one thing he holds out at this time is the Vivified Labyrinth, but he will deflect a question rather than outright lie.

If asked about his paranoia in his own home, he is unwilling to talk about it but clearly seems distressed.

He then says there may be a way for him to help, but it would be a great risk for him, and he would appreciate a favor first. Ask kinda like this:

Not for ME, of course, but for the people of Old Korvosa who are so dear to my heart. The Emperor of Old Korvosa is destroying the lives of our fellow citizens! He is murdering people everyday! If you heroes could save Old Korvosa from this great evil, I know I could put my faith in you and take the risks required to help you find your friends. And while I know great heroes such as yourself need no reward to do good things and protect the innocent, I would be honored to give you a reward as a token of my gratitude. (I don't mention the reward unbidden, but if the party asks I mention the "magical ring from my own hand")

And so the module moves to the Emperor again, and the heroes return triumphant! The servant remembers to offer food and/or drink in the waiting room this time. He asks if they would each like what they had last time, except that one item of your choice has not sadly been able to be acquired through the quarantine (just a subtle reminder to the PCs that Old Korvosa is cut off).

Glorio arrives, dismisses the servant, waits a moment or two, and then excitedly greets the PCs. He happily hands them the ring of evasion off of his hand. The conversation next reveals the following:

Vencarlo and Neolandus are in the Vivified Labyrinth (I let some Knowledge (local) rolls get some rumors about this place)

No, he cannot retreive them because his wife, Melryia, has taken that part of the house for hers and won't let him in.

This usually piques the players' curiosity, so Glorio explains that his wife has not been the same since a trip to Vudra over a year ago. She has slowly replaced all of the servants and spends an lot of time in the labyrinth. She has spent a small fortune doing some sort of renevations, but won't let Glorio see them (this one is a bald faced lie, but Glorio has a ridiculous Bluff skill). He will help them by telling them how to enter the Labyrinth, and warn them that the guards will almost certainly try to stop them if they enter the garden. He also suspects that his wife has harnessed some from of arcnane power, but he has no proof and knows little of such things.

After this the party should have a strong opinion about Glorio being a prisoner in his own home.

Obviously, Vimanda tries to get them to go fight GLorio, but since she starts out trying to trick them as Vencarlo, the party already doesn't trust her.

Give it a try!

I mostly scrapped Hisotry of Ashes for some urban romps in Kaer Maga, so the party was only away from cities for one book. Scarwall is awesome, and I don't have a more worthy guardian for Serithtial.

Plus it is an absolute blast to run. I say screw running around the Cinderlands in the lousiest chain quest ever and party in Kaer Maga.

I think establishing the new order is important. Also, how is the Queen spinning the plague? Is the party aware of her involvement? Are they dumb enough to say something about it? That might make the party's homes and friends subject to many "random" searches and any number of bureaucratic headaches Ileosa can conspire like tax reassessment of their properties or zoning changes that shut down the business or who knows what? Is Ileosa blaming everything on evil cultists and using this "enemy of the state" to hedge out the Korvosan Guard and give all the power to the Grey Maidens? How does Cressida feel about this? Perhaps the party becomes aware of her rebellious thoughts before they head into book 3.

I also have a few comments on your points:

Grey Maidens interrupting a feast? Absolutely LOVE it. Wish I had thought of this.

Cinderlander references in Korvosa? Like it. If you don't foreshadow this guy he just shows up and dies (quickly). I used rumors in Kaer Maga (a city near and dear to my heart) and his calling cards across the cinderlands to do this.

Gaedren's return at Scarwall? I'm not a fan. I can't figure how his wretched soul would get there. If you want to bring Gaedren back, maybe his gang moved into the void that shutting down the King of Spiders created and they got him reincarnated as something interesting. Maybe he is hellbent on revenge and one of the gang members decides to warn the PCs since his life was spared--I'm just spitballing here. Or, do what I did with Rolth after his soul was trapped in a gem and thrown into a chasm--have Illeosa purchase that soul and put it into a flying, advanced cannon golem. She can basically do anything and Gaedren's soul is almost certainly in the hells with her devil allies.

Zellara replacing Venster? I'm guessing you haven't read through Crown of Fangs, but Venster's corpse is pretty well hidden the way it is and the two ghosts do some pretty awesome stuff when they meet. Not saying don't do it, but I suggest skimming CoF first.

Glorio Arkona! I like what you have done so far, although I gave him no ties to the underworld since I figure he'd work hard to hide that. Having run this AP twice, I have fooled two parties into never realizing that he was a rakshasa--although the second group is now highly suspicious after dealing with him in the first part of CoF (where he is plotting to take the throne, of course). Remember--this guy lies like most folks breathe. If you want my angle for Bahor, let me know!

Man I type too much.... hope any of that inspires something!

Actually 3h 42m 18s to be exact, run over eight or nine four-hour weekly sessions.

Obviously, this will have a ton of spoilers and get a bit long. So, to those that bother to read it, I apologize for destroying your mouse wheel.

Now, I realize that somebody may accuse me of being a soft GM to make this possible, but I promise that I am not, and our group wouldn't allow me to be if I wanted to. Attack rolls and damage dice get rolled in front of the GM screen, and players try to hide their hit points so that I can 't be motivated to pull punches--to us a game without the chance of failure makes success meaningless. Anyway, I promised I would post their triumph if they pulled it off, so here it is.

Before the PCs left the Cinderlands, I made a point of telling my group about the horrors of Scarwall as soon as they learned that they had to go there. This was so that they didn't have to walk into a cursed castle with a bajillion undead without at least a fair warning. What it ended up being was a challenge. This was when they got the idea that they would try to make the assault on Scarwall without resting. Knowing that they would certainly hit 13th level during the adventure, I offered them a MMORPG style leveling that would completely cure them and give them all of their abilities as if they had rested when they got there.

They refused.

The compromise was that they would receive all abilities like BAB and save increases that weren't tied to times per day like spells. Also, the hit points they gained for the level would be added to their total and current hit points.

The one other thing I do is change the types of magical arms and armor so that they are something the party can use--unless it would mess up the story as written. Captain Castothrane still has an axe, but the +1 lawful outsider bane greatsword in Belshallam's horde became a dagger so the rogue could get a better off-hand, as an example. I do this for all pre-written stuff I run so that the loot is more exciting.

I gave them Zellara’s song as a handout, but I don’t think that was a competitive advantage. I just figured it would be unfair to expect the players to remember the song once we were 3 or 4 sessions into the castle.

Beyond that, I threw waves and waves of incorporeal undead at them, and I'm the jerk who gives dread wraiths Whirlwind Attack. Anytime they tried to catch their breath for more than two minutes before the third Spirit Anchor was defeated, a random encounter happened. I kept them guessing with strange manifestations of the curse, and I used older edition interpretations of what forbiddance does for the Donjon since the Pathfinder version is weak.

I ran the entire castle in rounds, the better to keep my players guessing. I also put everything on the battle mat so that they assume combat is coming even when it isn’t (GMs can metagame, too!). Kept the players on edge—which is what I wanted from a haunted citadel. This was the second time that I had run Scarwall, so I was comfortable with all of the linked encounter possibilities and managing such a large dungeon. Honestly, the first time I ran this it was daunting, and I learned a lot of lessons that got applied to making the second go-around memorable.

I have to disagree with Lord Snow here: I kind of like the bard approach. Something about Ileosa using only her voice to impose her evil will upon humanity seems appropriate for a narcissistic homicidal queen.

My group is just starting CoF and I'm still debating how to run Ileosa. I want to make a queen whose words carry power enough to lay PCs low, but I face an obstacle: one player took Leadership to get a bard who would spread tales of his greatness and buff him in combat (taken at beginning of HoA so Trinia was perfect fit). This player knows all about countersong which will kinda ruin the fight.

So I'm considering allowing her to ignore countersong because she is just too powerful while still allowing it to work on the simalucrums since they are but pale shadows of Ileosa's majesty, OR going with a dragon sorc and re-flavoring all of her spells to seem like they are just her voice (only verbal components and such--possibly not provoking attacks of opportunity like bardic performance).

I think I can justify bending the rules for a queen possessed by Zon-Kuthon's chosen dragon warlord who is attuned with the Everdawn Pool. As long as the fight is interesting.

I thought that the Lamm stuff was way to quick. As written: the group is assembled by Zellara, assaults the old fishery, and Korvosa is in flames--all well before level 2. Seeing as how I wanted to introduce pre-anarchy Korvosa as a "character" worth saving, and I liked the opportunity to plant a million bits of foreshadowing, I expanded Lamm's criminal empire and had the group taking out cells across the city over the course of two weeks. Admittedly, the fishery seemed a little anti-climactic after battling alchemists in a shiver lab with only thin glass panes seprating the fight from hundreds of dream spiders... but it was a small price to pay!

I like that obscuring mist one, I'll have to give it a try sometime. The problem I see with shaking hands is that the target will immediately get a save since the silent image doesn't have scent or temperature (if I recall correctly). Although higher level illusion spells could cover that.

My favorite use of the spell has been to justify very large circumstance bonuses to Bluf and/or Intimidate. Shadows are my favorite play, since the only sense tied to them is sight. For example: when my bard cries "I AM THE MIGHTY SHADOWMANCER SOANDSO!!! LEAVE NOW OR MY MINIONS WILL CONSUME YOUR VERY SOULS!!!" while every shadow in the room appears to take shape and move in on the baddies--that is frightening stuff.

...except for that one GM who hated me "getting around" combat encounters.