"Flat-Footed: At the start of a battle, before you have had a
chance to act (specifically, before your first regular turn in
the initiative order), you are flat-footed. You can’t use your
Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) while flat-footed."
Situation: while GMing I like to create situations where the PCs and the enemies can talk before battle ensues. Both sides expect a fight to break out at any moment.
I was playing it that when a fight then begins, characters are flat-footed before they have acted.
My players seemed to think this shouldn't apply - both sides are fully aware of the other side and on their guard. Is there any basis for this belief in rules or table tradition?
Its an abstraction. What you are thinking of is "surprise" which is not the same as flat-footed. Initiative is not just to track where you take your turn, it is also an expression of how quick you are to act, even when you know you are in danger. What your players are describing is the basis for determining if there is a surprise round. Different thing entirely. One is based on awareness (surprise) the other is based on how quick you are to act once negotiations fall apart (initiative).
Roll initiative when the encounter begins. Just because people spend their time chatting does not mean the encounter hasn't begun.
- Gauss
That seems like it would encourage attacking first, which seems like it would discourage talking...
Why would it encourage attacking first?
George goes: I talk to the bad guys
Bad guy 1 goes: I talk to George
and so on until someone shoots the other side on his initiative.
In any situation where combat can occur roll initiative. What the players and bad guys do after that is up to them. They can still talk, or fight. Rolling initiative does not mean that blood MUST be drawn.
- Gauss
Lincon, I should've said that I wouldn't use it in situations where combat is not eminent, but I was responding to the OP's situation that they expected a fight to break out. :)
- Gauss
Why would it encourage attacking first?
Because using your rules, attacking instead of talking means you have effectively won combat initiative. Talking instead of attacking means the other guy can attack first if he wants.
If you players REALLY want to argue that they were TOTALLY ready for a fight...then maybe give them a +2 to initiative...but if the BAD GUYS were also TOTALLY ready...they also get +2...party on Garth!
Matthew Downie, first, not my rules. The game states that at the start of a battle initiative is rolled. If you are expecting combat to start is that not the start of the battle? If not, what qualifies? The first time someone is shot THEN initiative is rolled?
Second, why would it disadvantage those that go first? They can ready actions.
Player 1: I ready an action to do X if they do Y. Then with my move action I talk.
NPC 1: I ready an action to do X if they do Y. Then I respond.
Player 2: I ready....
NPC 4: I shoot...and am turned into a pincushion due to all the readied actions.
It works quite well actually and adds a layer of suspense to things.
Now, if things are friendly to start with, there is no hostile encounter so initiative is not rolled. But in a hostile situation initiative should be rolled so people can talk or fight as they choose. Just because Initiative is rolled does not mean they MUST attack, that is just poor game play and is metagaming on the part of those involved.
- Gauss
I would roll initiative when the first person says, I attack.
I can tell you from my LARPing days that even if we were SURE a fight was about to take place, no one knew when it would actually start. Even if you planned on being the guy to start it, someone may get the jump on you.
Going in rounds to talk will just set up when you should attack and eat up someone else's attack.
The problem with that Komoda, is that first person that says, I attack, can create an odd situation. He states he attacks, you roll initiative, he is on the bottom of the list. While sure, that is the luck of the roll, it doesn't make logical sense. How did he start the fight if he is going last?
The way the initiative system is written he doesn't get to attack before his initiative comes up so he didn't start the fight after all. Thus, initiative must have been going before he declared he attacks or else he could not have declared an attack.
- Gauss
Again Gauss I find that by applying modifiers you can account for someone's preparedness to engage in battle without removing the roll for initiative.
Lincoln, that is exactly how I would describe initiative was already rolled, with the Hero having a readied action to shoot the bad guy.
I guess I just have a different perspective where I think rolling initiative the moment two hostile groups come into contact before attacks are declared is the better route that adds flexibility to the system. The rules are not really clear on this one way or the other.
Ultimately, these situations come up rather infrequently.
- Gauss
I disagree Crash, he has not taken an action, has not made a 5' step. Like I said, IMO it works better if initiative is rolled the moment two potentially hostile groups come into contact. After that it is their choice what to do about it. If they choose to give up the surprise aspect in order to discuss things so be it.
- Gauss
In normal encounters, where you meet the monster in a dungeon or in an open space, opposed perception rolls determines who gets the drop on who.
In an encounter that starts with talking, I'd say bluff/sense motive roll. As Crash 00 says, if you're crap at hiding your tell, you're going to telegraph your intention to strike, thus alerting the opposition.
meatrace, that is interesting, I like it. I may have to consider that. But the problem remains, the guy who successfully hid his tell, when does he attack? He still has to roll initiative and still may wind up at the end of the pile.
To everyone, I am not arguing this to argue it. I have seen too many times that the initiative system does not work if it is rolled only after an attack is declared. Readied actions don't work before initiative is rolled either. There is a gaping hole in the system here and I have simply found it is easiest to roll initiative when a potentially hostile encounter begins.
- Gauss
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There are many ways to handle this.
1. The parties meet. Initiative is rolled. Then the talking begins. Finally someone acts (attacks) on his initiative and everybody begins swinging away, each on the initiative roll he has already made.
2. The parties meet. Then the talking begins. Finally someone acts (attacks), so everyone rolls initiative. The attacker might get lucky and go first, or he might get unlucky and go later in the round - in the latter case, he begins his attack - he's slow (low initiative) so he gets no actions yet, but his body language "telegraphs" his intent and the faster guys react to that, even before the attacker gets his action, and everyone starts swinging away even before the attacker can actually act.
3. The parties meet. Then the talking begins. Finally someone acts (attacks) and that one guy gets a surprise round because, even though everyone knew combat was imminent, nobody knew exactly when it would start except the guy who starts it. After his surprise round, everyone rolls initiative and starts swinging away as any normal combat.
All of the above are totally RAW; each GM can run it however he likes.
I also suggest a 4th possibility for groups that don't like the above options (#1 is weird, #2 is hard to accept that the guy starting it might go last, and #3 seems to rob everyone of the fact that they know there will be combat):
4. The parties meet. Then the talking begins. Finally someone acts (attacks), so everyone rolls initiative. The attacker gets to treat his roll as a natural 20 plus his normal modifiers (he doesn't need to roll a die) because he is starting it; everyone else rolls normally. He might go first, or maybe a few people with good modifiers and high rolls might beat his initiative anyway - those who do, treat it like I described in #2 above (they saw the body language and reacted so fast that they beat the attacker's initiative).
That one isn't RAW, but it seems a fair houserule to find the middle ground between the three RAW answers.
Or the attacker gets a surprise round if and only if his Bluff exceeds the enemy Sense Motive...
The idea of readying actions does make the 'roll initiative before battle starts' system sound quite interesting. Though I don't know why you'd ever say "I talk with my move action" since that's normally a free action.
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If the two groups are obviously hostile, then the moment that the first person on either side declares intention to take a hostile action, I ask for initiative. The person who asked to take the hostile action doesn't automatically get to do it before everyone else because the other group would be watching and so combat would start and act out based on initiative.
If the one group doesn't appear to necessarily expect hostilities, then I use opposed checks (Bluff or Diplomacy versus Sense motive or Perception) and surprise-round rules, but initiative still occurs before any hostile actions are taken.
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Gauss, I have taken out more than one person that thought they got the drop on me in a LARP. People telegraph exactly what they are going to do, ESPECIALLY if they are talking first.
The roll right when battle starts is the only fair way to do it, mechanically. It doesn't penalize either side for trying to talk it out either.
To do otherwise will give one side a clear advantage. And as you can talk even when it is not your turn, why does one have to wait their turn to talk?
Anything can be explained away, so you have to drop the entire idea of explaining what may happen when trying to figure out a fair rule.
Well... Have you ever seen a Western? Or a samurai movie? Not that I'm claiming these are historically accurate, but then, Pathfinder combat has higher priorities than historical accuracy. A situation where the bad guy decides to start killing - and the hero gets the first attack in anyhow - is almost universal in film, and quite common in most other media.
It's not that heroes get to attack first -- it's just that the hero in classical Westerns tend to be faster than the bad guys are. There are many films where the badguy is faster, and he shoots/strikes first (Initiative). Sometimes that badguy still loses in the climatic final duel because he misses the hero (Attack Roll) or doesn't do a fatal strike (Damage Roll).
At least, that's how I see it in the example there.
It's not that heroes get to attack first -- it's just that the hero in classical Westerns tend to be faster than the bad guys are. There are many films where the badguy is faster, and he shoots/strikes first (Initiative). Sometimes that badguy still loses in the climatic final duel because he misses the hero (Attack Roll) or doesn't do a fatal strike (Damage Roll).
Or he gets off several deadly accurate shots that don't penetrate the piece of steel mine cart hidden beneath the poncho (DR) and then the Man with no Name shoots him dead...
But number 4 basically turns into number 3, only better for that player because he has (likely) the highest iniative, or at least the highest he could possibly obtain. Giving him the most options accessible to the character.
But number 4 basically turns into number 3, only better for that player because he has (likely) the highest iniative, or at least the highest he could possibly obtain. Giving him the most options accessible to the character.
Not quite. With #4, he might get to go first, but if he has an ordinary Init mod and other people with good Init mods roll higher, he won't go first. With #3, he always gets a Surprise round (half a round) alone (except for others with Uncanny Dodge), but he could still roll very high and essentially act twice, Surprise round followed by going first in the next round, or roll very low and get only a Surprise round and then go last in the next round.
Matthew Downie, the rules on free action talking limit such talking to a few sentances. A conversation would be a greater action (such as a move).
Speak
In general, speaking is a free action that you can perform even when it isn’t your turn. Speaking more than a few sentences is generally beyond the limit of a free action.
Of course, then it gets into the question of how much are you saying etc but that really doesn't matter here. The point is that while you and the bad guys are talking it out you can also be readying actions in case the other side does something "stupid".
Komoda, I don't think rolling when the encounter begins (as opposed to when someone declares an attack) is unfair or mechanically penalizes anyone. That is what readied actions are for and I think it in fact opens up options.
As for talking, it depends on how much talking a PC is expecting to do. Free action or more.
DM_Blake, thank you for the clarity of your 1-4 options post. I liked it. :)
- Gauss
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So everyone rolls initiative.
They all decide to talk.
Every single player, DM included says, "I ready an action to attack when anyone not on my team tries something funny"
So as soon as someone declares an attack, it goes right back to the original Init because they all are readied to attack and you use initiative to figure out who gets to take their readied actions first, right? I mean what idiot isn't going to take the time to ready an action as talking is a free action anyway and they are not going to do anything else this round?
So then the first round of combat becomes a surprise round (every combatant is limited to standard or move action) where no one is surprised or flat-footed (everyone has acted).
What did you gain, as a game tool, I mean? I only see the loss of options.
Komoda, that is not how readied actions would work.
Players and GM critters all say they ready an action when...
Ok,
Now...the first guy on the opposing team to do something 'funny' is going to get all of the opposite team's readied actions. Their initiative moves to the initiative just prior to the guy that triggered the readied actions.
Note: Initiative modifiers are in parenthesis.
Starting initiatives:
Critter A: 18 (+4)
George: 15 (+3)
Critter B: 13 (+4)
Jon: 12 (+4)
Critter C: 11 (+4)
Critter D: 10 (+4)
Robert: 9 (+1)
Lisa: 3 (+0)
Everyone readies an action on their previous turn. Critter A, being stupid decides to change his action to CHARGE!
George, Jon, Robert, and Lisa all now get their readied actions.
The new initiative order after first tier of readied actions:
Jon: 18 (+4)
George: 18 (+3)
Robert: 18 (+1)
Lisa: 18 (+0)
Critter A: 18 (+4)
Critter B: 13 (+4)
Critter C: 11 (+4)
Critter D: 10 (+4)
Now, Critters B, C, and D still have their readied actions. They may take those since the PCs are now doing something 'funny'.
Who the triggering PC is would depend on the initiative bonuses of the PCs. The one who has the highest initiative bonus goes first and would thus be the triggering PC for the Critters.
The new initiative order after second tier of readied actions:
Critter C: 18 (+4) (dice off: 18)
Critter B: 18 (+4) (dice off: 13)
Critter D: 18 (+4) (dice off: 10)
Jon: 18 (+4)
George: 18 (+3)
Robert: 18 (+1)
Lisa: 18 (+0)
Critter A: 18 (+4)
As you can see, the initiative order is not the same. Jon is going to suffer 3 attacks from the Critters, then Critter A is going to suffer 4 attacks from the PCs after which Critter A finally gets his action.
The rules being used for the initiatives to do this are:
Your initiative result changes. For the rest of the encounter, your initiative result is the count on which you took the readied action, and you act immediately ahead of the character whose action triggered your readied action.
and
If two or more combatants have the same initiative check result, the combatants who are tied act in order of total initiative modifier (highest first). If there is still a tie, the tied characters should roll to determine which one of them goes before the other.
Note: This second rule could be taken as only applying when initiative is rolled and not when you have two simultaneous readied actions, but I find it to be the only reference on what to do when two creatures have simultaneous actions.
Alternately, some or all of the people can elect to not take their readied actions and then wait for their normal initiative instead. But, that is a whole other debate (on whether you are forced to take your readied action or not).
- Gauss
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Why would it encourage attacking first?
George goes: I talk to the bad guys
Bad guy 1 goes: I talk to Georgeand so on until someone shoots the other side on his initiative.
In any situation where combat can occur roll initiative. What the players and bad guys do after that is up to them. They can still talk, or fight. Rolling initiative does not mean that blood MUST be drawn.
- Gauss
No Gauss, you roll initiative when the battle start, not before.
Machine SoldierMatthew Downie, first, not my rules. The game states that at the start of a battle initiative is rolled. If you are expecting combat to start is that not the start of the battle? If not, what qualifies? The first time someone is shot THEN initiative is rolled?
Exactly.
If you do it your way:
- I roll initiative,
- I am unhappy of the result,
- I spend time speaking and delay till the next round to change my initiative round,
- the enemies do the same, or they wait till initiative count 5 to act and so on.
What you should be doing:
- you don't roll initiative,
- you keep track of the round passing to check for spell and effects duration,
- when the first person declare an hostile act all involved parties roll initiative, that give you an indication of how rapidly they acted or reacted.
The guy starting the battle is the least one to act? Sorry, he telegraphed his actions and everyone was ready for him.
You allies initiative aren't nicely set so that all of the members of your party will act before the enemy? it happens, it is not strange.
Your way of doing things penalize people with a high initiative.
I think my rankings were wrong, but I don't agree with your rankings at all either, which shows how problematic this method will become
Ok, so someone 'blinks' and starts the fight, lets say it was Critter A, like you said, taking all your rolls.
Critter A goes (See A), and triggers George and all his friends, but George has the highest Initiative of his friends so George goes first (See B).
Now George's action triggered all the critters moves, so now they all jump the line in front of George because all of their triggered actions happen before George gets to go. Critter B has the next highest Initiative of his friends so Critter B goes first (See C).
Now Critter B's action triggered all the party's moves, so now they all jump the line in front of Critter B because all of their triggered actions happen before Critter B gets to go. Jon has the next highest Initiative of his friends so Jon goes first (See D).
Now Jon's action triggered all the critters moves, so now they all jump the line in front of Jon because all of their triggered actions happen before Jon gets to go. Critter C has the next highest Initiative of his friends so Critter C goes first (See E).
Now Critter C's action triggered all the party's moves, so now they all jump the line in front of Critter C because all of their triggered actions happen before Critter C gets to go. Robert has the next highest Initiative of his friends so Robert goes first (See F).
Now Robert's action triggered all the critters moves, so now they all jump the line in front of Robert because all of their triggered actions happen before Robert gets to go. Critter D has the next highest Initiative of his friends so Critter D goes first (See G).
Now Critter D's action triggered all the party's moves, so now they all jump the line in front of Critter D because all of their triggered actions happen before Critter D gets to go. Lisa has the next highest Initiative of his friends so Lisa goes first (See H).
H: Lisa: 18*
G: Critter D: 18*
F: Robert: 18*
E: Critter C: 18*
D: Jon: 18*
C: Critter B: 18*
B: George: 18*
A: Critter A: 18*
*Modifier doesn't matter anymore as the order of Readied Actions previous to the trigger trumped all placement in Initiative order.
So following your scenario, the fastest person goes last and the slowest goes first. Since there were 4 separate triggers for each side, I think they would all fit like this as each one triggered someone else's actions.
It doesn't matter which of us is correct, because the key to following my ranking protocol or yours is that everyone would know the outcome before the first person ever says, "I attack". Using my ranking protocol, it is one for one, in reverse initiative order. Using your ranking protocol, it is the person that started it goes last, but all his friends go before all his enemies, so he may take one for the team and call out the attack.
It would work like that every time. Just like we both agree that the person that start's the fight will always be the last to go.
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Have you ever been at a red light waiting for it to turn green? This is you, actively awaiting something that you KNOW will happen very soon, but you don't know exactly when. Do you ALWAYS start driving the EXACT INSTANT that the light changes? Have you ever taken half a second--maybe even 2 or 3 seconds--to register that the light changed before moving through the intersection? Perhaps you are especially on edge? Maybe you are sneaking forward, watching the other light and waiting to see when it turns red so you know the green light is close. You start cheating forward, but you still can't commit until the light turns. Maybe you've just reapplied the brake when it does turn green, and--despite your efforts--still lose a half-second.
Welcome to initiative rolls in real life. I am 100% behind the OP's way of running things. Not only does it work simply (and avoid that complicated stack of readied actions that Gauss just described), eliminating the flat-footed-until-acts part of combat diminishes the effectiveness of several character options, such as (but not limited to):
High initiative
Sneak Attack
Uncanny Dodge
Combat Reflexes
Defensive Strategist
...and that is just off the top of my head. I'm sure if I thought about it I could come up with many more.
Remember that while it can take several minutes to play out a single round of combat, it is only 6 seconds of game time. And even though actions are executed sequentially, they are assumed to happen (more or less) simultaneously in the game world. So the flat-footed part of combat is probably only indicative of 1 second or less in game terms. Characters who have selected options to avoid this momentary hesitation are rewarded, and characters who don't are occasionally penalized.
The traffic light example above is waiting for an event that will absolutely happen. If two parties are talking, I imagine that there isn't a 100% chance of combat. So it is easy to think that even the most alert might not be on extreme edge after a few minutes of discussion.
Last thing: I would consider readying an action to be the start of combat if the atmosphere is that of a fight about to break out. The ranger who draws, nocks and pulls an arrow to be "ready" to shoot looks an awful lot like a ranger drawing, nocking, and pulling back an arrow to attack immediately. The wizard reaching into his spell component pouch to be "ready" to cast a spell looks a lot like a wizard getting components to cast a spell right now. The bad guys don't know that the ranger or wizard is waiting--they just see the beginning signs of aggressive action. Roll initiative!
Komoda, ALL of the party's readied actions triggered on Critter A. Not one, note two, but all four.
While we may debate the use of initiative bonuses or keeping the original order of initiatives the rules state all 4 players go before Critter A and after Critters B, C, and D.
Order of things:
Critter A attacks
George, Jon, Robert, and Lisa's readied actions all go off right then and there. (What order they are resolved in relative to each other is up for debate.)
Critters B, C, and D readied actions all go off. (Again, what order they are resolved in relative to each other is up for debate. They are reacting to the first of the PCs to respond to Critter A and who that is is also up for debate.)
So the final result:
Critters B, C, and D go (in some order)
George, Jon, Robert and Lisa go (in some order)
Critter D goes last
There were not four separate triggers, there were 2. Using your initiative takes precedence it would be Critter A triggering the PCs and George triggering the remaining Critters.
- Gauss
Diego, ok, so when the battle starts. Define battle? Is there one in the book somewhere?
If battle is defined as an attack, then many people (not just me) are using the initiative rules incorrectly. They roll the moment two hostile parties encounter each other and battle may occur. Nobody has declared an attack yet. Perhaps both parties are casting prep spells when they encounter each other. Thus, no initiative is rolled according to you.
And yes, if you do it my way you may delay. Meanwhile you are giving the advantage to your opponent who may attack while you delay. You are intentionally waiting to see what he does, does he converse with you or attack?
My way of doing things does not penalize people with high initiative. They may still go first and attack first.
Again, why do most groups that I have ever seen roll initiative automatically when two hostile parties meet. BEFORE attacks are declared?
If you are doing it differently that is fine, but I find it interesting that you are allowing two groups to sit there, in a hostile situation, buffing themselves until someone finally does something that is an attack. All without rolling initiative.
- Gauss
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Gauss:
"Readying an Action: You can ready a standard action, a move action, a swift action, or a free action. To do so, specify the action you will take and the conditions under which you will take it."
You are saying that "As soon as someone do an hostile action" is a valid trigger for a readied action? It is an awfully open ended set of conditions.
If the bard in your party start his Inspire Competence bardic performance to give one of you a bonus to diplomacy, it is a hostile act?
Yes, no why, how you recognize what is doing [you are using a ready action, so you can't evaluate the effects of the performance, only that he started something]?
The bard in the other group do the same. It is a hostile act? Same additional questions as before.
Someone ready an action. Hostile act?
Move toward your party? He could be setting up to get a flanking position. Or to perform an exchange of hostages.
Your way of doing thing seem very metagamey, something that is created only by the constraints of the initiative system.
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Free online merriam-websterDiego, ok, so when the battle starts. Define battle? Is there one in the book somewhere?
The phrase "battle of wills" exist, but generally a battle is a armed fight between two parties. Not a discussion between two parties.
Gauss, even if you are right, which you may be, it proves my point that using initiative before combat will lead to the combat happening the same way each time.
If I start the fight, I go last, but all my friends go before you and all your friends. Seems like that might work.
But also, using these rules would still mean that there are no flat footed people, again, limiting options.
@thejeff, thanks for that. With out the drawing, it took me a moment (or maybe I am slow and I lost my initiative). But I did find it humorous.
Diego, I can pull up dictionary definitions too but that rarely, if ever, applies directly to Pathfinder. There are plenty of instances where something in PF is defined differently than how people will expect.
Now, lets look at one of your provided dictionary definitions:
Battle: 1a: An encounter between opposing forces.
Hmmmm, that would appear to me that rolling initiative before someone makes an attack still works since they are opposing forces that simply have not attacked yet.
Regarding the readied action trigger, if you read further up, I did not provide the example trigger. I was using someone else's example and responded using their example. I use more specific triggers in my games.
As for metagamey, no I do not believe it is. It is readying an action, something people do all the time irl and in game. The problem is, the way you are saying to use initiative PREVENTS readying an action until combat starts.
Player: I ready an action to shoot the guy I can HEAR coming around the corner to come around the corner.
GM: You can't.
Player: Why not?
GM: Because we have not rolled initiative yet, there is no battle so even if you ready an action nothing will happen. We will roll normally and then you either go first or you don't and readying means nothing.
Player: !!!!
The player is not trying to metagame there. He is trying to prepare an attack in response to hearing someone even if nobody has attacked yet.
Similarly, in the case where two hostile groups encounter each other, wouldnt you roll initiative? What happens when they start talking instead of fighting? Do you stop the initiative at that point even if they remain hostile to each other?
Komoda, I think that it is a choice. You can choose to let people talk or to attack.
If you are letting people talk while you all have drawn weapons then why would they be flat-footed later? It doesn't make sense to me, although, it appears to make sense to others. Personally, I think that is where bluff vs sense motive come in. If you bluff people that you are not going to attack then perhaps you will catch them flat-footed. There are rules for that DURING combat.
As for the readied actions, you don't have to take it, you can do your full action later (on your normal initiative) if you want. Of course, you cannot if you think you cannot decide to perform your readied action or not. But, that is (still) another debate. :)
- Gauss
Edit: it is clear I am in the minority and I have stated my opinion and why. I don't think Im going to convince anyone and that is ok. Unless I have something constructive I will probably let this go as my last post. :)
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A lot of problems like this are because people assume that players/npcs take turns rather than attempt to act all at the same time (and understandably given how we actually do take turns at the table). The person who wins initiative is simply a little bit faster.
I hate using real life to justify D&D but just because I decide to start a fight doesn't mean I'll go first. I train muay Thai a bit here in Thailand. I'm awful at it. It doesn't matter how hard I try to catch my trainer off guard he always gets me first. Even if we're just standing around goofing off between rounds (not in combat) I can't sneak a kick or a jab on him. You could read that as I'm trying to start the combat (kicking him when he's not ready) but he wins initiative and kicks me first.
Just remember that 1 round of combat is everyone trying to act at the same time in a 6 second period, despite the fact that it probably takes most tables 3-5 minutes.
Player: I ready an action to shoot the guy I can HEAR coming around the corner to come around the corner.
How I'd handle that: he's declaring hostile action so we roll initiative. If the enemies around the corner are unaware of the PC, he gets a surprise round and can ready the action immediately. If not, he might still win initiative, in which case he can ready the action.
I don't think Im going to convince anyone and that is ok.
Your way sounds like it works fine but I find the interplay of multiple readied actions confusing.
This discussion makes me think about the 'Han Shot First' controversy.
In the original Star Wars, Han Solo is in conversation. He beats Greedo's Perception with his Sleight of Hand to draw a concealed weapon, beats his Sense Motive with his Bluff, and one-shots him with sneak damage.
In the special edition version, they both roll initiative, Greedo acts first, but misses. (Han is not flat-footed due to uncanny dodge.) Han then shoots him dead; Greedo is pretty low level.
Alternatively, Greedo actually hits, but Han has lots of hit points and in this case they represent avoiding damage due to experience.