Kinetic Blast - Shifting Rune?


Kineticist Class


Prepping to finally get a playtest going, and one player asked if they could use the Shifting Rune to give their kinetic blast a different damage type. I'm unsure how to answer this, so I'll ask here. Is the Shifting Rune a valid rune to apply to a kinetic blast? How would that work? For that matter, how does a shifting rune work when applied to handwraps of mighty blows normally?

Liberty's Edge

No, the Shifting Rune does not function on Unarmed Attacks at all and since that is how the Handwraps treat the blasts for effects it does nothing for them at all.

You COULD make a ruling that if the Kin uses the Elemental Weapon feature you'd allow Shifting Rune to apply the Handwraps since you do have a method of creating a Weapon out of your Blast but that would be bending the rules, though I don't think I foresee too many ways in which this would break anything.


Themetricsystem wrote:

No, the Shifting Rune does not function on Unarmed Attacks at all and since that is how the Handwraps treat the blasts for effects it does nothing for them at all.

You COULD make a ruling that if the Kin uses the Elemental Weapon feature you'd allow Shifting Rune to apply the Handwraps since you do have a method of creating a Weapon out of your Blast but that would be bending the rules, though I don't think I foresee too many ways in which this would break anything.

I think it winds up being superfluous in that case, as the kineticist could use the same action to just drop their gathered element and regather as a different weapon.

Liberty's Edge

Sanityfaerie wrote:
I think it winds up being superfluous in that case, as the kineticist could use the same action to just drop their gathered element and regather as a different weapon.

The deal breaker with this is that when you select the Feat you choose the type of Weapon it will always form. This CAN be changed with 1 day of retraining but that's hardly as convenient as being able to change the form for 1 Action.


Themetricsystem wrote:
Sanityfaerie wrote:
I think it winds up being superfluous in that case, as the kineticist could use the same action to just drop their gathered element and regather as a different weapon.
The deal breaker with this is that when you select the Feat you choose the type of Weapon it will always form. This CAN be changed with 1 day of retraining but that's hardly as convenient as being able to change the form for 1 Action.

goes and re-reads

Oh. Huh. Looks like I was wrong. Thanks for the correction.

I mean, given that, I struggle a bit to try to come up with a character who'd want the feat, but that is, indeed, clearly what it says.


Sanityfaerie wrote:
Themetricsystem wrote:
Sanityfaerie wrote:
I think it winds up being superfluous in that case, as the kineticist could use the same action to just drop their gathered element and regather as a different weapon.
The deal breaker with this is that when you select the Feat you choose the type of Weapon it will always form. This CAN be changed with 1 day of retraining but that's hardly as convenient as being able to change the form for 1 Action.

goes and re-reads

Oh. Huh. Looks like I was wrong. Thanks for the correction.

I mean, given that, I struggle a bit to try to come up with a character who'd want the feat, but that is, indeed, clearly what it says.

The only real use right now is to get a better damage die on air blasts I feel. Without being able to grab 2h weapon forms it's pretty limited.


also to avoid AoOs, if you're a Melee build and suspect you'll be fighting a lot of them, since Blasts provoke but Weapon Strikes don't.


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Yet the usage of EW to avoid AoO is relative because in practice when a kineticist is put in a situation where it needs to use EW to prevent the AoO the mere fact of "cast" the EW triggers an AoO. So you need to know that opponent in question is already able to do AoO before enter in it's range.

Also all other Impulses trigger AoO so stay in melee range against an AoO opponent means that you cannot do nothing than Strike or use a skill without risky to trigger the reaction. In this situation you are always in a considerable disadvantage vs any other melee focused martial.

So in general I don't recommend to any kineticist to fight at melee because you will be in a situation where you will be worse and way more limited than any other class or melee monster. Usually the usage of "keep out the distance" tactics is better for kineticists.


YuriP wrote:
Yet the usage of EW to avoid AoO is relative because in practice when a kineticist is put in a situation where it needs to use EW to prevent the AoO the mere fact of "cast" the EW triggers an AoO. So you need to know that opponent in question is already able to do AoO before enter in it's range.

You could Step and make a weapon with reach, such as an asp coil. It's not great but I did something similar with normal blasts and switching to air to avoid AoO.

YuriP wrote:
So in general I don't recommend to any kineticist to fight at melee because you will be in a situation where you will be worse and way more limited than any other class or melee monster. Usually the usage of "keep out the distance" tactics is better for kineticists.

Agreed.

Liberty's Edge

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So you're assuming that hypothetical Kinetecist just so happens to be part of the Aspis Consortium organization or otherwise has fought against and looted specialists from it?

If they're not they will not have access to that Weapon and cannot select that as their EW since it is Uncommon.

Sorry to nit-pick but I do want to always try to point out the things that will NOT work given we're trying to test the Class and figure out where the lines on the page are and highlight when people suggest coloring outside of the lines.

A whip on the other hand, that's perfectly viable by default, but an Asp Coil is a HEAVILY coded piece of equipment that is iconic to an evil hyper-capitalist organization and their specialist mercenary forces.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

In the level 6 playtest I ran, the party found Melee blasts to be very effective against most of the creatures they fought. The two Kineticists each were STR focused, and so, when they got swarmed by creatures, they often did their best damage, and were well set up to use their overflow impulses.

That would be a terrible tactic if surrounded by creatures with AoOs, but I don't think you need to worry about always being in that situation. In that situation, an elemental weapon would probably be pretty effective to use, but you would want to step away to make it.


Themetricsystem wrote:
So you're assuming that hypothetical Kinetecist just so happens to be part of the Aspis Consortium organization or otherwise has fought against and looted specialists from it?

No. As you pointed out it works with a whip too that has a similar set of stats that include reach.

And there ARE the Former Aspis Agent background, being from Rahadoum originally and/or Unconventional Weaponry as ways to access.


Unicore wrote:

In the level 6 playtest I ran, the party found Melee blasts to be very effective against most of the creatures they fought. The two Kineticists each were STR focused, and so, when they got swarmed by creatures, they often did their best damage, and were well set up to use their overflow impulses.

That would be a terrible tactic if surrounded by creatures with AoOs, but I don't think you need to worry about always being in that situation. In that situation, an elemental weapon would probably be pretty effective to use, but you would want to step away to make it.

Why? If you can step aside to make the Elemental Weapon, why don't you step aside to make a ranged Elemental Blast? If you can't step aside to make your ranged Elemental Blast then you can't step aside to form an Elemental Weapon.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Ryuujin-sama wrote:
Unicore wrote:

In the level 6 playtest I ran, the party found Melee blasts to be very effective against most of the creatures they fought. The two Kineticists each were STR focused, and so, when they got swarmed by creatures, they often did their best damage, and were well set up to use their overflow impulses.

That would be a terrible tactic if surrounded by creatures with AoOs, but I don't think you need to worry about always being in that situation. In that situation, an elemental weapon would probably be pretty effective to use, but you would want to step away to make it.

Why? If you can step aside to make the Elemental Weapon, why don't you step aside to make a ranged Elemental Blast? If you can't step aside to make your ranged Elemental Blast then you can't step aside to form an Elemental Weapon.

why not both? Step aside, make a ranged blast, then cycle blast and regather an elemental weapon for next round?


Unicore wrote:
why not both? Step aside, make a ranged blast, then cycle blast and regather an elemental weapon for next round?

Oh, huh. Cycle blast is pretty useful for getting in and out of Elemental Weapon efficiently.


Well that depends on if you are currently in the element of your elemental weapon or not.

Unless you have taken Elemental Weapon multiple times so that you have a weapon you can switch to at all times.

I do kind of wish that Cycling Blast when combined with Elemental Weapon would let you strike with the Elemental Weapon instead of using Elemental Blast as part of that action. Then you could take Elemental Weapon twice for two separate elemental guns and just cycle blast between the two to avoid reloading, so long as you are from a region that grants access to guns of course.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I am pretty sure that the intention of elemental weapon is not to make everyone who wants to use a gun archetype into Kineticist to "hack" the reload system. I am sure that will be addressed in the final version of the class.

But the whole point of my earlier comment was being surrounded by enemies who have AoO and not having elemental weapon already out.


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Unicore wrote:
I am pretty sure that the intention of elemental weapon is not to make everyone who wants to use a gun archetype into Kineticist to "hack" the reload system. I am sure that will be addressed in the final version of the class.

Spending an action that's not compatible with any reload feature to get a loaded weapon hardly seems like a hack.

The alternative, explicitly making reload weapons start unloaded, seems like it would be genuinely terrible to play with.


Squiggit wrote:
Unicore wrote:
I am pretty sure that the intention of elemental weapon is not to make everyone who wants to use a gun archetype into Kineticist to "hack" the reload system. I am sure that will be addressed in the final version of the class.

Spending an action that's not compatible with any reload feature to get a loaded weapon hardly seems like a hack.

The alternative, explicitly making reload weapons start unloaded, seems like it would be genuinely terrible to play with.

Assuming you could use a pattern like shoot firearm, cycling blast to regather a second loaded firearm and repeat the process, you don't need to reload and can spend every action attacking. Only half of your attacks are blasts and the other half being firearm strikes. That's the issue I believe. Although, regathering after using an overflow would similarly skip the reload action. They would need some very specific wording to prevent this though. Not sure if it's worth it but it could be clarified.


Eh, 1h guns aren't strong enough to care, and they're uncommon anyways so you need access, which leaves a GM room to say no. Hand crossbow also exists and is fine.

Like, all it's really doing for someone is getting them a "shortbow" at that point.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

A big boom gun in the hands of a goblin fire kineticist would be all upside. You can use your regular blast at long range and the get the same damage only with a d12 fatal die up close. Who cares if it blows up? You just overflow and then make a new one. A short bow is still better than a 0 reload hand crossbow.


graystone wrote:
You could Step and make a weapon with reach, such as an asp coil. It's not great but I did something similar with normal blasts and switching to air to avoid AoO.

Curiously it was tried something closer in my playtests too. We made it with normal elemental blasts vs a medium size opponent that has AoO with Earth (Step, EB, Stone Shield). This granted a good survivability due good HP and Stone Shield Block but when the opponent focus on kineticist this make it fells even worse. When it was not possible to do nothing than just Gather, Step and Stone Shield and even the opponent misses the damage of just one EB is just meh specially when compared to the opponent that has 2-actions attacks and better damage.

So to improve the damage was tried to use the Bastard Sword as Elemental Blast and Deflecting Wave vs a AoO opponent. The DPR improved a lot but Deflecting Wave was useless when in the first usage it's triggered the AoO making a double reaction effect that done more damage than if was not used.

In the end the best tactic in the test was just use a real Gnome Flickmace in one hand and the Gather Element in other this allowed to use Stone Shield safely and even Step and Overflow tactics begins to work because you don't loose your weapon. This works better for a melee kineticist than with the Elemental Weapon at all. Yet the subpar damage persists so the opponent rapidly ignored the kineticist and focused in the Magus that's was doing tremendous amounts of damage. :P

Unicore wrote:

In the level 6 playtest I ran, the party found Melee blasts to be very effective against most of the creatures they fought. The two Kineticists each were STR focused, and so, when they got swarmed by creatures, they often did their best damage, and were well set up to use their overflow impulses.

That would be a terrible tactic if surrounded by creatures with AoOs, but I don't think you need to worry about always being in that situation. In that situation, an elemental weapon would probably be pretty effective to use, but you would want to step away to make it.

In fact the experience of a melee kineticist vs non-AoO opponents specially when you are surround is completely different. Even Tremor works well. During an encounter vs 10 opponents (a mix of 3 encounters due bad players decisions) the melee kineticist proved pretty efficient vs a high number os weaklings. When they are grouped the AoE Overflows takes about half of the weakling HP, and melee str bonus was enough to usually kill on a hit. But this situation only happened once and almost all players (specially the Unleashed Psichic with a blow doing devastating Electric Arc. Oh god, Bow Strikes + EAs with Unleash damage bonus are so good in low to mid level games) was basically doing one-shot kill.

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