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Simple question. Impulses are magical, Golem magic immunity will make all of theair blasts useless correct?
that is my reading, yes, golem antimagic is a bit... ill defined in some cases (such as weapon runes) but since impulses are a unique magical action that explicitly gets countered by things that counter spells, they almost certanly count
I wonder if Elemental Weapon would get around this, it seems to be the default solution to most of the other Impulse issues.
I think it's safe to say that it would be bad if Golems were just... immune to kineticists basically.
it would absolutely be bad, however i dont see any other way to interperate it, "A golem is immune to spells and magical abilities other than its own" and elemental blast is explicitly a "magical ability"
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I feel like that would still be an issue though. Running into a golem and just not being able to use any of your class, unless maybe you had one specific feat.
Although really I think that's more an issue with golem antimagic and how its worded.
The "too bad to be true" rule probably covers it, but I'd expect different GMs to come to different conclusions on it.
not really? like the alternative is to pretend that impulses are just not magical effects? the only way i can interpret this as not being the case is if we pretend that "magical effects" is just a bit of flavor text and it only explicitly applies to spells, which is... unlikely.
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Golems are also blanket immune to almost everything a spellcaster can throw at them, so it actually seems on theme. If the spellcaster just doesn't have the right spells to bypass immunity they have nothing but physical attacks to throw. At least a Universal Gate can try to find the right element to trigger the weakness, though a dedicated gate is truly hooped since golems don't always have an elemental reason for their immunity and that also only works for their damage resistance ...
I ran an encounter with this very situation in my playtest. Definitely ran it as they are immune to almost everything with some flex for targeting specific elemental weaknesses.
Kineticists definitely hated this fight.
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The problem is that the golems were designed to give spell casters options. Spells cross over lists and have common names. Kineticist abilites don’t fit well in that niche except where elemental traits are used. Do we have a golem weak to air?
I ran an encounter with this very situation in my playtest. Definitely ran it as they are immune to almost everything with some flex for targeting specific elemental weaknesses.
Kineticists definitely hated this fight.
me. I was the Kineticists (2 in a party of 4) and golems are the second worst fight. Hate them. Kill all of them. They need to go extinct.
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Golems are also blanket immune to almost everything a spellcaster can throw at them, so it actually seems on theme.
This is true, but one key difference is that spellcasters tend to have a bigger breadth of options available to them. Golems can't stop buff magic or other forms of utility spells. A primal or arcane caster can hit the weakness of every golem except alchemical, glass, and obsidian with cantrips alone.
Golems definitely aren't fun for spellcasters, but there tend to be alternatives you can lean on while still focusing on magical abilities. Honestly on the other extreme, someone focusing on buffs and utility spells genuinely might not be care at all that they're fighting a golem.
A pyrokineticist fighting an iron golem (or pretty much any kineticist fighting a stone golem) just can't participate that combat.
In fact, this came up in one of my playtest games. A group of level 2 characters against a carrion golem. The wizard failed an acid splash then noticed his produce flame was doing extra damage, the cleric focused on healing and tossed out a couple buff spells.
The kineticist found it immune to their blasts, then moved next to the enemy to absorb a couple hits, and then did 0 damage trying to punch it.
... Again, not saying golems are fun for casters, just that the narrow kit a kineticist has makes those problems even worse.
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If the golem has the corresponding element trait, the Kineticist would be fine, but none of them do. I wouldn’t be surprised if one thing rage of elements has to do is go back and Errata a bunch of creatures to be consistent with elemental traits. A wood Golem not having the wood element, clay golems not having earth? This shouldn’t be something GMs are left to arbitrate.
As far as I understand it a Kineticist can only hurt/effect a golem if it has a specific clause saying it takes extra damage from Fire if a Fire Kineticist, or a specific clause that it takes extra damage from Bludgeoning if one of the other Elements, or Slashing for Air. Though Air and Water might be able to do a little something if the Golem has a clause about taking extra damage from Cold or Electricity.
I think the only thing that can harm a Golem that a Kineticist can do is if they can do the damage type listed in the Golem Antimagic feature.
Maybe an Elemental Weapon can do it, depends on what traits the weapon actually has and if it counts a magical ability.
Also even if the Golem had the Elemental Trait matching the Kineticist's Element I am not sure Extract Element would even work because of the Golem's Magic Immunity.
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The playtest specifically calls out Golems as being an option at the GM's discretion, which I know makes some groups uncomfortable.
As a GM I would probably allow most Golems to be affected by extract element, but I allowed extract element to work on skeletons to pull the calcium from their bones. I tend to say yes to fun.
Unfortunately golems are constructs and construct tag gives them "mindless; they are immune to bleed damage, death effects, disease, healing, necromancy, nonlethal attacks, poison, and the doomed, drained, fatigued, paralyzed, sickened, and unconscious conditions".
So no you can't punch them without letal Strikes.
They are also a big problem for mostly occult and divine spellcasters because they probably won't have any useful spell against golems. They only can restrict themselves to support/heal, do some low-damage/low hit-rate Strikes or just sit on the corner.
But some golens may still be affected by some kineticists, carrion golems, flesh golems, ice golems and wood golems can be damaged by fire, clay golems, fossil golems, mithral golems and stone golems by water and obsidian golem can be slowed by fire. Making the fire and water kinetcists efficient against many golem types.
The only golem types that can be a problem for them are the alchemical golems, glass golems and off-corse the Adamantine Golem that are problematic against anyone.
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The other problem with relying on unarmed strikes is golems all have physical resistance and normal unarmed strikes have tiny damage dice. Unless the kineticist is rocking a decent strength score, their average damage will be 0 against a golem.
Aren't golems immune to nonlethal? The Kineticist would be punching at a -2.That's true. I'd forgotten about them using handwraps as their rune source, so unlike a spellcaster they actually have martial accuracy and damage if they punch the golem.
Still probably very unfun for them, but.
Also, thinking about it - it really makes the melee air blast seem awkward if I can do more damage by just kicking the enemy.
True. So, it seems having these 2-3 sp gauntlets or Knuckle Dusters could be useful.
As far as I understand they work perfectly well with handwraps.
What supports the idea that Handwraps work with Knuckle Dusters?
What supports the idea that Handwraps work with Knuckle Dusters?Aren't golems immune to nonlethal? The Kineticist would be punching at a -2.That's true. I'd forgotten about them using handwraps as their rune source, so unlike a spellcaster they actually have martial accuracy and damage if they punch the golem.
Still probably very unfun for them, but.
Also, thinking about it - it really makes the melee air blast seem awkward if I can do more damage by just kicking the enemy.
True. So, it seems having these 2-3 sp gauntlets or Knuckle Dusters could be useful.
As far as I understand they work perfectly well with handwraps.
The more important question: Why wouldn't you just rune the Knuckle Dusters?
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The more important question: Why wouldn't you just rune the Knuckle Dusters?What supports the idea that Handwraps work with Knuckle Dusters?Aren't golems immune to nonlethal? The Kineticist would be punching at a -2.That's true. I'd forgotten about them using handwraps as their rune source, so unlike a spellcaster they actually have martial accuracy and damage if they punch the golem.
Still probably very unfun for them, but.
Also, thinking about it - it really makes the melee air blast seem awkward if I can do more damage by just kicking the enemy.
True. So, it seems having these 2-3 sp gauntlets or Knuckle Dusters could be useful.
As far as I understand they work perfectly well with handwraps.
because runed knuckle dusters would not boost your blasts?
So... reasons to take a race/heritage with a built-in natural attack, I suppose. There are a fair number of them. Even if you crave that extra level 1 class feat that you can get the human to give you, you can still go half-orc and pick up Iron Fists.
A pyrokineticist fighting an iron golem (or pretty much any kineticist fighting a stone golem) just can't participate that combat.
I feel that's a bit of a disingenuous oversimplification.
There's nothing stopping the character from picking up a weapon and joining the fight, or using a power that doesn't directly impact the golem, or assisting their allies in other ways.
Creatures like golems are why characters need back-up plans and weapons.
Reflex is pretty bad on many golems, keeping one prone and aiding an ally's attack can help your party get crits and punch through their resistances.
Blasts get the element trait of their attack, so water and fire Kineticists are pretty decent against a fair number of golems. If GMs don’t require the exact trait, but majority composition for extract element, the wood, metal and earth will have some decent options too.
Air is really the odd element out, but I guess you just fly out of reach and the golems won’t be able to do much too you.
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The other problem with relying on unarmed strikes is golems all have physical resistance and normal unarmed strikes have tiny damage dice. Unless the kineticist is rocking a decent strength score, their average damage will be 0 against a golem.
Yes, in my playtest our kineticist had a maximum possible unarmed damage of 6 against an enemy with resistance 5 to all physical damage.
Since they never rolled maximum damage, they never actually hurt the thing.
I feel that's a bit of a disingenuous oversimplification.
There's nothing stopping the character from picking up a weapon and joining the fight, or using a power that doesn't directly impact the golem, or assisting their allies in other ways.
It's not an oversimplification. It's actual play experience. But I'll tell my kineticist player that someone online thinks they're a liar, I guess.
There are a few things the kineticist could have done differently to be better off, but they all essentially go back to making decisions at character creation or level up specifically to fight golems, or are simply unrealistic to expect someone to anticipate.
In the moment they had exactly zero actions that contributed in any way, barring standing next to the golem and hoping it hit them.
I guess for some people that's fun, but to me it's indicative of a systemic issue when most of the solutions essentially involve rebuilding the character. Or that if a specific option is mandatory for handling a certain category of problem, it probably should be baked in somewhere.
I think it is fair to ask how common should monsters be that PCs have almost no ability to affect, but golems present this challenge to many builds. Many psychics are going to be Simply Out of Luck in a golem fight too, hopefully with som support options in their tool kit. Bards probably have nothing but support to do, clerics as well. Champions often do little more than damage mitigation.
Often times, the thing I see kill Golems in play is mobility and effective battlefield control, which are two things the kineticist can contribute well
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What supports the idea that Handwraps work with Knuckle Dusters?True. So, it seems having these 2-3 sp gauntlets or Knuckle Dusters could be useful.
As far as I understand they work perfectly well with handwraps.Nothing, I guess. Handwraps are for unarmed attacks, but gauntlets or Knuckle Dusters are simple weapons. =( They only have the weapon group in common.
You could've said so yourself.
Yes, yet maybe you'd had a reason. Why would I rule out you knowing something I didn't? I prefer the Scout mindset to the Warrior's (or Scientist > Lawyer if that's your preferred analogy).
I am pretty sure that extract element would over ride Golem immunity. That is what it does, doesn't it? If you would normally be immune, then you gain resistance equal to your level.
I mean, right now, Golems don't get elemental traits, but the ability specifies that "elemental nature" which is pretty much subject to GM fiat.
I guess you are saying the ability itself wouldn't work because the golem is immune to magic? I mean, striking runes are magical too but I have never seen a GM rule those out.
Extract element certainly has some bugs to work out, but this kind of immunity seems like it is what extract element is for.
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I guess you are saying the ability itself wouldn't work because the golem is immune to magic? I mean, striking runes are magical too but I have never seen a GM rule those out.
striking runes enhance a weapon, a golem is not immune to them the same way they are not immune to the extra strike given by a haste spell, because they aren't the thing the magic is even impacting, whereas extract element is an explicitly magical action that targets the golem, thus they would no-sell it as written
Edit: I think what we are learning here is that golem antimagic wasnt the best thought out ability from a future proofing perspective
Side note: Combat Fleshgems give you a 1d6 piercing unarmed attack that gets boosted by handwraps and only costs 160gp. Now this *does* mean that you have sharp crystal shards implanted in your knuckles, and they're uncommon, but it's worth at least keepign in mind as an option, yes?
While definitely harder for a kineticist, there are items like the stone fist elixir or bestial mutagen, Ancestry feats for 1d6 unarmed attacks, elemental weapon, etc., not to mention theres the wall impulses and other support options, so I'm not really inclined to say they are useless in a fight against golems.
Imo, this is less an argument against making blasts magical and more an argument for giving more utility impulses. Golem antimagic (and any form of defensive ability) is supposed to make you approach the fight differently, it's okay for the magical martial to need creativity to get around it
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Golem antimagic (and any form of defensive ability) is supposed to make you approach the fight differently, it's okay for the magical martial to need creativity to get around it
I mean that's a good thought, but often in practice that doesn't quite work out. Especially in this case, where "get creative" actually means "you should have picked a different feat two sessions ago when you leveled up"
Golem antimagic (and any form of defensive ability) is supposed to make you approach the fight differently, it's okay for the magical martial to need creativity to get around itI mean that's a good thought, but often in practice that doesn't quite work out. Especially in this case, where "get creative" actually means "you should have picked a different feat two sessions ago when you leveled up"
If you've noticed, one of those options was "buy this cheap as heck item that offsets a weakness you know you have"
Golems also lose a lot of their design budget for anti magic, if you com prepared, they are basically glorified beatsticks
If you've noticed, one of those options was "buy this cheap as heck item that offsets a weakness you know you have"
That's true... but it also demands a degree of prior monster knowledge and prep that is, I think, somewhat unreasonable to demand. Like, "I'm a level 6 air/water elementalist. That means that I should buy a few mutagens, just in case we run into a wood golem." That's the kind of foreknowledge and preparation that you just can't expect of people. If they players are doing things honestly to the point of not reading the Bestiary, and they haven't encountered golems before.
Basically, "my standard strikes are technically a magical effect" isn't "a weakness you know you have" for players who don't happen to know the specific cases where it is a weakness.
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I mean, very few Golems have reliable long range weapons or means of moving very quickly. Many of them can be defeated by distraction and redirection and not directly fought. When Golems TPK a party, it is almost always because the party either had a "leave no one behind" mentality that got everyone killed when one person went down, or because the Golems were not activated until the party is trapped.
Almost every Kineticist has a way of either moving themselves, or stopping a Golem from moving well enough to never have to actually fight the golem.
Or be able to run away and come back when they are prepared to fight it.
If you've noticed, one of those options was "buy this cheap as heck item that offsets a weakness you know you have"That's true... but it also demands a degree of prior monster knowledge and prep that is, I think, somewhat unreasonable to demand. Like, "I'm a level 6 air/water elementalist. That means that I should buy a few mutagens, just in case we run into a wood golem." That's the kind of foreknowledge and preparation that you just can't expect of people. If they players are doing things honestly to the point of not reading the Bestiary, and they haven't encountered golems before.
Basically, "my standard strikes are technically a magical effect" isn't "a weakness you know you have" for players who don't happen to know the specific cases where it is a weakness.
Stuffing a cheap consumable into your bag of holding isn't really a big ask, not any worse than packing a scroll of remove disease. It's really weird to me how adverse people are to packing cheap consumables to be prepared, and then complain when they aren't prepared for the curveballs thrown at them.
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Stuffing a cheap consumable into your bag of holding isn't really a big ask, not any worse than packing a scroll of remove disease. It's really weird to me how adverse people are to packing cheap consumables to be prepared, and then complain when they aren't prepared for the curveballs thrown at them.
I agree that it's not a big ask. That's not my point. Knowing in advance that you need to stuff that consumable into your bag is, in some ways, a much larger ask.
I mean, personally I am one of those people who gets twitchy about having to use consumables basically ever, but first, that's not what I'm talking about here and second, this particular case would bother me much less than most as it's preparation for an edge-case scenario where the question of whether or not to use the thing is really obvious, so this particular case woudlnt' bother me all that much.
That said... I'll note that you, personally, are kind of at one extreme of the player base on this matter. Like, literally, you are the example that I use to make the claim of "Alchemist isn't weak. It's just particularly high-skill." When I describe to people what it's going to take for them to play a really effective alchemist, and what kind of benefits they can expect from same, I'm very nearly quoting things that you have said about your own playstyle. That speaks to you having an approach and a skill-set that most people will not be nearly as good at. For almost everyone else, these things do not come as naturally, and for a fair number of us the difference is severe.
Basically, if the question is "well, why aren't you all buying at least half a dozen specifically useful alchemical items each, just in case", the answer is that we just don't think like that... just like most of us don't heavily math out our DPR when considering different feat selections, and most of us don't go but so far in tactical analysis on board positioning or long-term feat/gear synergy planning, or party optimization techniques. They're all approaches and skill-sets that we could be pursuing. There's some of us that do each of these. We'd surely be stronger if we did all of them... but that's just not how we think.