Greater Feint whats the point ! or how does it work?


Rules Questions


Ok if you have both improved feint and the greater feint feats, as i understand it.

It still takes a move action to feint, so you can attck once with which they loose their dex bonus. Then they also loose their dex until you act on the following round.

But as it still takes a move action to feint, you cannot make any other attcks that round, say if you had a 6/1 attack bonus as that needs a full round action and you cannot do a move action in a full attack action.

Then when your action coems around again, the target of the feint regains their dex and you would have to make another feint roll for them to loose their dex again!

So whats the point of the feat as it you can still only make one attack with it. Or am i reading it wrong?

RPG Superstar 2015 Top 8

babelbgm wrote:

Ok if you have both improved feint and the greater feint feats, as i understand it.

It still takes a move action to feint, so you can attck once with which they loose their dex bonus. Then they also loose their dex until you act on the following round.

But as it still takes a move action to feint, you cannot make any other attcks that round, say if you had a 6/1 attack bonus as that needs a full round action and you cannot do a move action in a full attack action.

Then when your action coems around again, the target of the feint regains their dex and you would have to make another feint roll for them to loose their dex again!

So whats the point of the feat as it you can still only make one attack with it. Or am i reading it wrong?

I read it that the opponent loses his Dex to AC period for the whole round--to anyone attacking him in addition to you.

If the enemy has been hard to hit because of its high Dex, now not only can you hit the character more easily (and deal sneak attack damage if you're a rogue), now your friends can hit him more easily too for the whole round (and they can deal sneak attack damage if they have rogue levels).

It's basically a feat that helps you help your party, as well as yourself.


babelbgm wrote:

So whats the point of the feat as it you can still only make one attack with it. Or am i reading it wrong?

With Greater Feint, your allies get the benefit for a full round. With (Improved) Feint, only you get the benefit for one attack.

EDIT: ninja'ed


DeathQuaker wrote:


It's basically a feat that helps you help your party, as well as yourself.

It mostly helps just your party - which is fine. Egoists don't have a place in this game, anyway, unless they're the psymet psion type egoists.

RPG Superstar 2010 Top 32

KaeYoss wrote:
It mostly helps just your party - which is fine. Egoists don't have a place in this game, anyway, unless they're the psymet psion type egoists.

Egotists are different from egoists.


A Man In Black wrote:
Egotists are different from egoists.

Interesting; I didn't realise that "egoism" and "egotism" are slightly different.

Egoism: "excessive concern for oneself with or without exaggerated feelings of self-importance"

Egotism: "an exaggerated sense of self-importance"

You learn something new every day!


DeathQuaker wrote:
babelbgm wrote:

Ok if you have both improved feint and the greater feint feats, as i understand it.

It still takes a move action to feint, so you can attck once with which they loose their dex bonus. Then they also loose their dex until you act on the following round.

But as it still takes a move action to feint, you cannot make any other attcks that round, say if you had a 6/1 attack bonus as that needs a full round action and you cannot do a move action in a full attack action.

Then when your action coems around again, the target of the feint regains their dex and you would have to make another feint roll for them to loose their dex again!

So whats the point of the feat as it you can still only make one attack with it. Or am i reading it wrong?

I read it that the opponent loses his Dex to AC period for the whole round--to anyone attacking him in addition to you.

If the enemy has been hard to hit because of its high Dex, now not only can you hit the character more easily (and deal sneak attack damage if you're a rogue), now your friends can hit him more easily too for the whole round (and they can deal sneak attack damage if they have rogue levels).

It's basically a feat that helps you help your party, as well as yourself.

Great thanks loads for that, it just dient say that others get the benift of the lose of dex, also if you have haste cast on you or boots of speed, then that attack is also at no dex and if you are a rogue get the extra attack with the sneak attack damage as well!

Which is good as im playing a wizard/rogue/arcane trickster at the moment!


babelbgm wrote:

Great thanks loads for that, it just dient say that others get the benift of the lose of dex, also if you have haste cast on you or boots of speed, then that attack is also at no dex and if you are a rogue get the extra attack with the sneak attack damage as well!

Which is good as im playing a wizard/rogue/arcane trickster at the moment!

No no, you (the person using Greater Feint) still only get 1 attack since you cannot do a full-round attack after using up a move action on the feint. Haste/Weapon-of-Speed only applies to full-round attacks.

Though you *can* take leadership and have a greater-feinting cohort that can set up dex-denied enemies for you. But *he*'d of course not gain extra attacks against the target either.


Opps true i forgot, duh, pity though lol

LoreKeeper wrote:
babelbgm wrote:

Great thanks loads for that, it just dient say that others get the benift of the lose of dex, also if you have haste cast on you or boots of speed, then that attack is also at no dex and if you are a rogue get the extra attack with the sneak attack damage as well!

Which is good as im playing a wizard/rogue/arcane trickster at the moment!

No no, you (the person using Greater Feint) still only get 1 attack since you cannot do a full-round attack after using up a move action on the feint. Haste/Weapon-of-Speed only applies to full-round attacks.

Though you *can* take leadership and have a greater-feinting cohort that can set up dex-denied enemies for you. But *he*'d of course not gain extra attacks against the target either.

The Exchange

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

I think what you are looking for is a feat that would allow the attacker to feint once during a full attack action, in exchange for losing one attack that turn.

As a fencer I would approve of this feat.


In essence, it's a feat tailored for rogues except that they'd better have someone else using it...
Well, there's still the invisible blade PrC from complete warrior, to use feint as a free action.


delabarre wrote:

I think what you are looking for is a feat that would allow the attacker to feint once during a full attack action, in exchange for losing one attack that turn.

As a fencer I would approve of this feat.

I agree with this. There should be some Feint version that allows "feint" as an "attack equivalent action" or something like that. Ie: drop one feint (of any bab value - you're choice) and use that value for the feint maneuver, but leave the remaining options of full attack to capitalize on the feinted opponent's lack of Dex.

That, or something that leaves the dex penalty for longer than "up to your next action" like for 2 rounds or something beginning immediately when the target loses the Feint check result (ie: 1st round of initiation) and lasting until the end of the following round (ie: move on 1st round to set it up, but leave the target still vulnerable to the feint for the next round where a full attack can come into play).

Honestly, I'm VERY close to just house ruling the "attack action" upgrade above as part of "Greater Feint" since it's already a 2-feat buy-in. 3-feats just to make something like this viable is REALLY steep for almost NO significant payoff, IMO.


I'd go with

"You're allowed to feint as part of a move action or when performing a Spring Attack"


LoreKeeper wrote:

I'd go with

"You're allowed to feint as part of a move action or when performing a Spring Attack"

+1 The feint is really more about appearing to attack from one direction and then actually attack from another. Being able to feint as you roll up to stab someone makes a lot of sense. Combine this with Spring Attack, the Vital Strike chain and/or Sneak Attack dice and this would be a pretty decent combo for a skirmisher.

Scarab Sages

You could certainly add something like "Super-Duper Feint" that allows you to use an attack action to perform the feint and denies the target their Dex bonus for the following attack. With enough attacks per round, this would work well for the rogue but he'd need haste at a minimum to make it valuable at lower levels. (You'd need 4 iterative attacks to take advantage of it.)

Of course, the rogue can always use Greater Feint as a move action, then use scorching ray and make multiple attack rolls, all of them with sneak attack damage! :)

Grand Lodge

azhrei_fje wrote:


Of course, the rogue can always use Greater Feint as a move action, then use scorching ray and make multiple attack rolls, all of them with sneak attack damage! :)

Brilliant!!


The 3.5 rule disallows that.

Complete Arcane wrote:

Some weaponlike spells can strike multiple times in the same

round. When the caster gets a bonus on damage with such spells
(including sneak attack damage), the extra damage applies only
to the fi rst attack, whether that attack hits or not.
For example, a 7th-level sorcerer/3rd-level rogue with Point
Blank Shot makes a scorching ray attack at less than 30 feet (two
rays, each requiring a ranged touch attack roll and dealing
4d6 points of fi re damage). If the fi rst ray hits, it deals 6d6+1
points of fi re damage (4d6 normal + 2d6 sneak attack + 1 for
Point Blank Shot), while each subsequent ray deals only 4d6
points of fi re damage whether the fi rst ray hits or not.

And it's true that being able to feint in place of a melee attack, like sunder or disarm, makes sense.

I think the ability should allow this from the start, with improved feint denying the opponent's dexterity bonus until the end of your turn, and greater feint until the start of your next turn. It would be really powerful with just these two feats, but since combat expertise is a prerequisite...

Grand Lodge

Oh, interesting. That's unfortunate. One can always argue that this is PRPG and not 3.5. :D

Scarab Sages

Fred Ohm wrote:
The 3.5 rule disallows that.

Yes, of course. And it's been discussed here on the forum as well. But never resolved convincingly, IMO. Which is not to say that I disagree with you, only that it's still a gray area, IMO.


Well, I have no opinion on the matter, I understand why multiple attack rolls should multiply the bonus damage, and I understand that this spell was not designed to be balanced with that.
But the rule is clear, if one wants to follow it.


the rule was made back during the days of 3.0 because the spells were a lot more powerful and didn't yet have thier 3.5. nerfs. there is nothing wrong with sneak atack applying to each ray of a scorching ray. i also find nothing wrong with using an AoE spell to sneak attack. damage spells need this buff. and so does the arcane trickster. we shouldn't differentiate between volleys and full attacks, if one makes a sneak attack, no matter how they make it, it should apply to all attacks that meet the conditions. this is only a small step to convince people to actually play an evoker type mage and not just buff the fighters and summon earth elementals all day. i have seen many casters who just spend the whole day buffing fighters and summoning earth elementals. it gets quite boring to watch.


I allow to use an improved feint as a part of a full attack if the character has greater feint.

Note: "use an improved feint" means that the ennemy is not considered dex denied for the rest of the party. Like an alternative to greater feint use as described in a feat. Both abilities do not stack.

Generally used in small parties or when the ennemy has no dex bonus anyway.

Shadow Lodge

azhrei_fje wrote:
Of course, the rogue can always use Greater Feint as a move action, then use scorching ray and make multiple attack rolls, all of them with sneak attack damage! :)

This brings up another benefit of Greater Feint. Improved Feint only works with melee attacks, Greater Feint works with Melee and Ranged attacks. This alone is kind of a nice benefit and sort of a must have feat for arcane tricksters.


babelbgm wrote:

Ok if you have both improved feint and the greater feint feats, as i understand it.

It still takes a move action to feint, so you can attck once with which they loose their dex bonus. Then they also loose their dex until you act on the following round.

But as it still takes a move action to feint, you cannot make any other attcks that round, say if you had a 6/1 attack bonus as that needs a full round action and you cannot do a move action in a full attack action.

Then when your action coems around again, the target of the feint regains their dex and you would have to make another feint roll for them to loose their dex again!

So whats the point of the feat as it you can still only make one attack with it. Or am i reading it wrong?

I am making a Ninja backup character, and I came across this thread. I know it's been several years, but I wanted to point out that the OP is incorrect, just in case other people find this thread and have the same question we had. I checked the FAQ and the combined errata from first printing through the sixth, and there have been no changes to Greater Feint on page 125, nor to the Feint description on page 201, since the first printing of the Core Rulebook, so this is how it has always read.

Feint

Spoiler:
Feinting is a standard action. To feint, make a Bluff skill check. The DC of this check is equal to 10 + your opponent's base attack bonus + your opponent's Wisdom modifier. If your opponent is trained in Sense Motive, the DC is instead equal to 10 + your opponent's Sense Motive bonus, if higher. If successful, the next melee attack you make against the target does not allow him to use his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any). This attack must be made on or before your next turn.

Greater Feint (Combat)

Spoiler:
You are skilled at making foes overreact to your attacks.

Prerequisites: Combat Expertise, Improved Feint, base attack bonus +6, Int 13.

Benefit: Whenever you use feint to cause an opponent to lose his Dexterity bonus, he loses that bonus until the beginning of your next turn, in addition to losing his Dexterity bonus against your next attack.

Normal: A creature you feint loses its Dexterity bonus against your next attack.

Just like with basic Feint, that next attack can be taken on or before your next turn. The benefit your party gets ends when your turn starts, but you still get the benefit on your next attack, as long as you take that attack before the end of the turn after you make the feint. Greater Feint does not shorten the duration of the benefit to the character making the feint in exchange for providing the benefit to the rest of your team.

This is likely too late to help you, but hopefully it helps someone. :)


So, what you are actually looking for is this:

Improved Two-Weapon Feint (Combat):

Your primary weapon keeps a foe off balance, allowing you to slip your off-hand weapon past his defenses.

Prerequisite: Dex 17, Int 13, Combat Expertise, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, Two-Weapon Fighting, base attack bonus +6.

Benefit: While using Two-Weapon Fighting to make melee attacks, you can forgo your first primary-hand melee attack to make a Bluff check to feint an opponent. If you successfully feint, that opponent is denied his Dexterity bonus to AC until the end of your turn.

of course, it's only for two-weapon rogues, but two-weapon fighting just means more sneak attacks, right? ;)


Just a note: Feint does NOT make you flatfooted, just more vulnerable. Whenever I play as a bard though, feinting is typically my go to... even if you can't be caught flatfooted feint can still ruin your day as far as RAW is concerned.


Greater feint is best for the rogue when he can create or assist in a AOO against the target.
Perfect world: Rogue successfully Greater feints (arguably the loss of dex applying to the Foe for all friends in melee/ranged), then Dirty Tricks, Trips, etc...plus sneak attack if he can. His buddy who is cleverly flanking same foe, gets bonuses for no-dex flanking, and uses a trip/sunder/etc...The Foe then on his action must either choose to (usually) perform an action that provokes(stand up), and its wheel of stabbity for the rogue again as combat reflexes kicks in. You are aiming to time it so they are locked down in the fetal position as you kick in their ribs.

Scarab Sages

Since this thread has been necroed already, Greater Feint also combines quite nicely with Wave Strike.


My bad that this is nearly two years late!

You have to remember that in 3.5 they allowed for a prestige class called Invisible Blade, that eventually allow for free action feints that would leave your opponent invulnerable for any attack for the entire round.

A shame that they tried to do the same but depended on a party to complete the task compare to a single individual. That was the whole purpose of the Invisible Blade. As long as they were armed with a dagger type weapon and no armor, they could sucker an enemy into being flat-flooted and sneak attacked with every attack afterwards.


IMO, Greater Feint is for the Fighter which allows the Ranged Rogue doing full attack sneak attacks from inside 30'.

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