Unsworn Shaman Archetype & Hex - From Advanced Class Guide


Rules Questions

Sovereign Court

11 people marked this as FAQ candidate.

Minor Spirit - This ability replaces spirit and hex.
Wandering Spirit - This ability alters wandering spirit and replaces wandering hex.

This leaves this archetype without the hex ability at all meaning:
No feats that require hex can be taken
No items that require hex can be taken

Is this truly how this archetype is meant to work or was it intended that this class should still qualify as having hex and wandering hex for the purposes of feats and items but with the altered abilities?


I would say that yes the unsworn is intended to be a hexless shaman.


The new version of the Extra Hex feat on ACG page 147 has an extra sentence: "If you are a shaman, it must be a hex granted by your spirit rather than one from a wandering spirit." Since unsworn shamans don't have a full-time non-wandering spirit, they can't take Extra Hex.

Unsworn shamans should have the same access (or lack thereof) to Split Hex as regular no-archtype shamans.


They can get Spirit Talker which adds a new wandering hex.

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/spirit-talker

Shadow Lodge

When I first read this, I understood Minor Spirit to replace only the 1st level hex. Maybe not?

I don't think they can take Spirit Talker because the pre-requisites are:

Quote:
Hex class feature; shaman level 6 or witch level 6

which I believe means you need both the hex class feature as well as either shaman levels or witch levels.


This bag of worms was poorly written as a archetype.
What is the difference in a Minor Spirit vs a Wandering Spirit (vs Spirit Animal)? It appears they are all the same as far as being something selectable from the wizard familiar table, but then what about Improved Familiar feat? And do they scale differently or the same as a wizard familiar?

Onyxlion: They are not intended to be hexless, as to use a Witch hex you must have Hex as a class feature, it's an catch-22 error within the text. You can't giveth and then taketh away...For correction, they should either say, "You can use all hexes" or "You may only select Witch hexes" and stop screwing around.

whew: again, I refer to the text in Extra Hex as not being terribly precise, as it doesn't say "minor" but does say "wandering". Perhaps they meant to include a section on the varying qualities of the three spirits available. As is, they are all the same physically. You are right about split hex.

Someone else posted that Unsworn also can't get Manifestation at 20th, this is in error as well, it isnt removed by archetype changes.


Yep I have no clue why I was thinking that the archetype gave up hexes for something else, my bad.

Shadow Lodge

I'm trying to understand this archetype, it's doing my head in.

By level:
- 1st: Minor Spirit opens hex slot #1, must be a witch hex (changes each day).
- 2nd: Wandering Spirit lets you select a shaman spirit (changes each day), with an associated hex and its Spirit Ability. Choose between either a witch hex or this spirit's hex (which also changes each day).
Spirit Animal according to the spirit chosen.
Spirit Magic is gained, opening spontaneous spellcasting as per the w/spirit(s).
- 4th: Minor Spirit opens hex slot #2. Between these two slots, you can prepare either 2 witch hexes, or 1 witch and 1 w/spirit hex.
- 6th: Wandering Spirit lets you select a second shaman spirit (changes each day), with an associated hex.
-- Now with your 2 hex slots, you can prepare either 2 witch hexes, 2 w/spirit hexes (1 for each w/spirit), or 1 witch hex and 1 w/spirit hex.
- 8th: Minor Spirit opens hex slot #3. Between these three slots, you can prepare either 3 witch hexes, or 2 witch hexes and 1 w/spirit hex, or 1 witch hex and 2 w/spirit hexes (1 for each w/spirit).
- 10th: Wandering Spirit lets you use the Greater Spirit Ability for a single w/spirit (changes each day). Meaning you can use the Spirit Ability and Greater Spirit Ability for one w/spirit, and only the Spirit Ability for the other.
- 12th: Minor Spirit opens hex slot #4. etc.
- 14th: Wandering Spirit lets you use the Greater Spirit Ability for the second w/spirit (changes each day).
- 16th: Minor Spirit opens hex slot #5. etc.
- 18th: Wandering Spirit lets you use the True Spirit Ability for the first w/spirit (changes each day).
- 20th: Wandering Spirit lets you use the True Spirit Ability for the second w/spirit (changes each day). Minor Spirit opens hex slot #6 etc.

Sovereign Court

Avatar-1 wrote:
I'm trying to understand this archetype...

No, just NO. This archetype is god awful. Run far far away.

you can't use ANYTHING that requires HEX.
All the spells, feats, items that require hex and that are needed to make this class (witch or shaman) work are completely cut off from this archetype. If you can't get your gm to fix this or you are playing PFS this archetype is USELESS.

Even if you can get your gm to allow you to qualify as having HEX the only befit you again is you can choose different hexes every day. Considering by level 8 you will only have 3 hexes the variety you get from being able to change your hexes every day is completely useless.

P.S. you have the class correct as best as I can tell. I did the same thing you did when i originally made this post and that seems to match what I had.

Shadow Lodge

In the absence of an FAQ or a dev post, I'm going with the RAI here; I'm pretty sure that if you are using "hexes" that you qualify for spells/feats/items that require hex. If a player was at my table, I'd be fine with it. I understand there might be table variation.

The big advantage with this archetype is the ability to use witch hexes at all.


Avatar-1 wrote:

In the absence of an FAQ or a dev post, I'm going with the RAI here; I'm pretty sure that if you are using "hexes" that you qualify for spells/feats/items that require hex. If a player was at my table, I'd be fine with it. I understand there might be table variation.

The big advantage with this archetype is the ability to use witch hexes at all.

Uh... Shamans can default use Witch Hexes. Just not Major or Grand Hexes, something which the Unsworn Shaman Archetype does nothing to change. The only benefit is that your Witch Hexes are flexible (which isn't that useful since there's a limited number of "good" ones). To be honest default Shaman is best Shaman.

Shadow Lodge

Er, you're right, I missed the Witch Hex option. So what's the point of this archetype then??? Two wandering spirits?

Sovereign Court

1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.
Anzyr wrote:
Avatar-1 wrote:

In the absence of an FAQ or a dev post, I'm going with the RAI here; I'm pretty sure that if you are using "hexes" that you qualify for spells/feats/items that require hex. If a player was at my table, I'd be fine with it. I understand there might be table variation.

The big advantage with this archetype is the ability to use witch hexes at all.

Uh... Shamans can default use Witch Hexes. Just not Major or Grand Hexes, something which the Unsworn Shaman Archetype does nothing to change. The only benefit is that your Witch Hexes are flexible (which isn't that useful since there's a limited number of "good" ones). To be honest default Shaman is best Shaman.

You are completely wrong:

Minor Spirit (Su)

At 1st level, the unsworn shaman also forms a temporary bond with a minor spirit each day, granting her access to a witch hex of her choosing, but not a major hex or a grand hex. She must make this selection each day when she prepares her spells for the day. Until she changes the minor spirit, she continues to have access to the witch hex. At 2nd level, she can instead select a hex from one of her wandering spirits selected for that day. If she selects a witch hex, she treats her shaman level as her witch level, and uses her Wisdom in place of her Intelligence for the purpose of that hex.

She can make temporary bonds with two minor spirits (thus gaining two hexes) at 4th level, and with one additional minor spirit (and hex) every 4 levels thereafter.

This ability replaces spirit and hex.

Wandering Spirit (Su)

At 2nd level, the unsworn shaman gains access to the wandering spirit class feature. At 10th level, she gains the abilities listed in the greater version of her wandering spirit. At 18th level, she gains the abilities listed in the true version of her wandering spirit.

Additionally, at 6th level, she also gains a second wandering spirit, gaining the abilities listed in the greater version of that spirit at 14th level, and the abilities listed in the true version at 20th level.

This ability alters wandering spirit and replaces wandering hex.

Unsword Shaman Loses Hex as a class feature. They still have hexs but do not have the HEX ability for the purposes of meeting requirements for feats, items, etc.

Ex: An unsworn shaman can not take the feat [Extra Hex] by RAW and thus by PFS rules.

Now I still maintain that this is completly stupid and most likely a mistake but that is how it is written.

Sovereign Court

Heimdall666 wrote:
Onyxlion: They are not intended to be hexless, as to use a Witch hex you must have Hex as a class feature, it's an catch-22 error within the text. You can't giveth and then taketh away...For correction, they should either say, "You can use all hexes" or "You may only select Witch hexes" and stop screwing around.

You're just making s@+* up because RAI is so obvious:

Witches are granted hexes by the class ability HEX.

In contrast the unsworn are granted hexs by the class ability Minor Spirit.

Minor Spirit /= Hex and does not not fulfill Hex requirements.

citricking wrote:

They can get Spirit Talker which adds a new wandering hex.

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/spirit-talker

No they dont as they do not meet the Prerequisites:

Hex class feature; shaman level 6th or witch level 6th.

Unworn DO NOT HAVE Hex per RAW.

This is the entire reason for this thread being an FAQ.

The raw is obvius: no HEX

The RAI is equally obvius: they should have some line that basically says, "This ability counts as having HEX for the purposes of meeting prerequisites".

This seems like a mistake and not an intentional decision to cut them off from all of the feats and items that this class needs. But even if we all agree this is a mistake it doesnt change the way it works until it gets addressed (at least for PFS)


Negative Zer0 wrote:
Anzyr wrote:
Avatar-1 wrote:

In the absence of an FAQ or a dev post, I'm going with the RAI here; I'm pretty sure that if you are using "hexes" that you qualify for spells/feats/items that require hex. If a player was at my table, I'd be fine with it. I understand there might be table variation.

The big advantage with this archetype is the ability to use witch hexes at all.

Uh... Shamans can default use Witch Hexes. Just not Major or Grand Hexes, something which the Unsworn Shaman Archetype does nothing to change. The only benefit is that your Witch Hexes are flexible (which isn't that useful since there's a limited number of "good" ones). To be honest default Shaman is best Shaman.

You are completely wrong:

Minor Spirit (Su)

At 1st level, the unsworn shaman also forms a temporary bond with a minor spirit each day, granting her access to a witch hex of her choosing, but not a major hex or a grand hex. She must make this selection each day when she prepares her spells for the day. Until she changes the minor spirit, she continues to have access to the witch hex. At 2nd level, she can instead select a hex from one of her wandering spirits selected for that day. If she selects a witch hex, she treats her shaman level as her witch level, and uses her Wisdom in place of her Intelligence for the purpose of that hex.

She can make temporary bonds with two minor spirits (thus gaining two hexes) at 4th level, and with one additional minor spirit (and hex) every 4 levels thereafter.

This ability replaces spirit and hex.

Wandering Spirit (Su)

At 2nd level, the unsworn shaman gains access to the wandering spirit class feature. At 10th level, she gains the abilities listed in the greater version of her wandering spirit. At 18th level, she gains the abilities listed in the true version of her wandering spirit.

Additionally, at 6th level, she also gains a second wandering spirit, gaining the abilities listed in the greater version of that spirit at 14th level,...

Ok. You realize that in absolutely no way refutes anything I said right? The default (not unsworn) Shaman literally has a Hex called "Witch Hex" which literally says:

Witch Hex wrote:
The shaman selects any one hex normally available through the witch's hex class feature. She treats her shaman level as her witch level when determining the powers and abilities of the hex. She uses her Wisdom modifier in place of her Intelligence modifier for the hex. She cannot select major hexes or grand hexes using this ability. The shaman cannot select a witch hex that has the same name as a shaman hex.

As I said, both the default and unsworn shaman get access to Witch Hexes. The Unsworn Shaman does not grant access to major or grand hexes, so I'm really not sure why you took so much time to write nothing that even approaches challenging what I said.

Shadow Lodge

Tone down the snark, guys. If something sounds off, bring it up, but don't get cynical about it. Constructive criticism.

In case it's not clear, Unsworn Shaman gets witch hexes from the first line in Minor Spirit, and regular Shaman gets it because of the "Witch Hex" hex that Anzyr quoted.

So it's no advantage to the archetype. Not sure if the devs didn't realise this loophole after the playtest was over? I don't think the Witch Hex option existed back then.

Sovereign Court

@Anzyr: The entire point of this thread is discussing if the archtype qualifies for FEATS, SPELLS, and ITEMS that have requirement HEX.

I assumed that your original response was in the context of the discussion and that you are claiming the archetype does have access to these in which case I am pointing out this is wrong per RAW.

RAW in this case is completely stupid but that's why this is an FAQ because it's my opinion that this is a mistake not an intended penalty for the archtype.

Sovereign Court

Avatar-1 wrote:
In case it's not clear, Unsworn Shaman gets witch hexes from the first line in Minor Spirit, and regular Shaman gets it because of the "Witch Hex" hex that Anzyr quoted.

This discussion isn't if unsworn can use witch hexes.

This is obvious of course they can use witch hexes.

They however don't have HEX as a class feature as HEX is replaced by the class ability Minor Spirit.

Minor spirit does not meet the Prerequisites for feats, spells, and items, that require HEX.

Quote:
At 1st level, the unsworn shaman also forms a temporary bond with a minor spirit each day, granting her access to a witch hex of her choosing

This is no different from the Warpriest using the Clerics spell list. This doesn't magically make the Warpriest a cleric for the purpose of Prerequisites on feats and items. This is a bad example because I don;t know if items or feats the have Prerequisites: Cleric even exists but you get the point. Just because the word hex appears in Minor Spirit, does not make you qualify for feats that require Hex.

Shadow Lodge

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I don't know anything about the Warpriest so can't comment there, but there's this post from SKR on how to interpret the rules, notably:

SKR wrote:

So when the cleric class has a header section called "Class Features" and under that is an entry that says "Channel Energy," and the oracle class has a section called "Class Features" and under that is an entry that says "Channel: You can channel positive energy like a cleric," and the paladin class has a section called "Class Features" and under that is an entry that says "Channel Positive Energy (Su): ... she gains the supernatural ability to channel positive energy like a cleric," those all are intended to work the same way, even though they're not given identical names. For one, because the paladin and oracle "versions" of that ability tell you it works like the cleric "version" of the ability. For two, because having them all work the same way is simpler and easier to remember than each of them working a different way. Now, given, the oracle gets 1+Chamod per day instead of the cleric's 3+Chamod, and the paladin spends uses of lay on hands instead of a separate X/day allotment, but if you line up a good cleric 5, a life oracle 5, and a paladin 5, and tell each of them to channel a burst of positive energy, all three of them are healing 3d6 to living or dealing 3d6 to undead, DC 10 + 1/2 level + Chamod, 30 ft. radius, no AOO, and so on. Exactly the same. Because it's easier to remember that way. Because it makes the game easier to run that way.

And that means things like Improved Channel and Alignment Channel and Extra Channel should apply equally to the cleric, life oracle, and paladin (you'll note for Extra Channel the paladin ability's counting method of uses per day for the feat is slightly diff because the paladin ability is based on using lay on hands, but the net result is the paladin gets +2 uses of channel per day, just like the cleric and oracle). Because to do otherwise means we need different versions of these feats for oracles and paladins because under the strictest interpretation, neither of them has a class ability that's specifically and explicitly named "channel energy;" and three sets of redundant identical feats for clerics, oracles, and paladins is lame and a waste of space.

Sovereign Court

The difference is this isn't a similarly named ability its a situation where it directly conflicts.

"This ability replaces spirit and hex"

There are other classes/archetypes that have this same thing and when this happens it does indeed cut them off from that class feature. When they still want them to qualify they have specifically added lines like "X still qualifies as Y for the purpose of selecting feats" when such a line does not appear then you can't.

RAI - it seems pretty damn obvious that simply forgot to include a line: "Minor spirit qualifies as Hex for the purpose of meeting prerequisites" There is a precedent for this in other archetypes.
RAW - Without the above line the ability doesn't meet the Prerequisite HEX again this is due to an established precedent set by other archetypes.


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I am not so sure that the developers did intend for the Unsworn Shaman to qualify for Extra Hex -- in fact, from the wording about spirit vs. wandering spirit in the text of the feat, I would conclude that they are not meant to qualify because they have no associated non-wandering spirit to get Hexes from. Every one of the Unsworn's hexes can be changed daily, so those hexes have far more in common with Wandering Hexes than "normal" Hexes -- and the Extra Hex feat specifically says that the added Hex is a fixed choice that is added to your "normal" Hexes rather than your Wandering Hexes.

Sovereign Court

David knott 242 wrote:

I am not so sure that the developers did intend for the Unsworn Shaman to qualify for Extra Hex -- in fact, from the wording about spirit vs. wandering spirit in the text of the feat, I would conclude that they are not meant to qualify because they have no associated non-wandering spirit to get Hexes from. Every one of the Unsworn's hexes can be changed daily, so those hexes have far more in common with Wandering Hexes than "normal" Hexes -- and the Extra Hex feat specifically says that the added Hex is a fixed choice that is added to your "normal" Hexes rather than your Wandering Hexes.

Extra hex was a bad example but as worded this archtype doesn't qualify for any feats that require hex or any items or spells.


I'm hoping they meant to say "This replaces the Spirit ability and alters the Hex ability." Otherwise it makes no sense since the only thing the Hex class feature does is grant you the ability to use hexes, which this also does.

On shaman's taking witch hexes, the name of the shaman he is Witch Hex, and I believe as it is written you can only take Witch Hex once, meaning a regular shaman can only get one witch hex, while an unsworn has access to them all. Of course, an unsworn cannot currently get any shaman hexes, though I expect a witch hex called Shaman Hex will be added at some point that would allow an unsworn to get one Shaman hex that isn't tied to a spirit.

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