The Godsrain Prophecies Part Two

Wednesday, February 14, 2024

As I continue my reading of the Godsrain Prophecies’ dire predictions of the deaths of various gods, it should be noted (and will be, in the compiled report for my Lady), that their existence as a collection brings into question the validity of each one. I believe that a corollary of the Windsong Paradox explains this best (as unsettling as this discovery of “prophecy” has been, I relish the opportunity to apply one of my favorites!): each individual prophecy exists independent of the others, as if they each occur in their own solitary void (note, for example, the mention here of a living Pharasma).This means they cannot all be true and, per the corollary, the chance of any of them being true is lessened¹. A reassuring thought that I am happy to consider!

¹In all fairness, a counter-argument could be made that one of the Godsrain Prophecies is correct in full, with all others either invalidated by its truth or purposefully created to mislead, but I tend to believe my initial theory (perhaps, if nothing else, because it is a bit more comforting).

Yivali, Apprentice Researcher for the Lady of Graves




The wound that kills Asmodeus has ached for countless eons, and still he has no memory of how Ihys drew blood. He knows the war between them, can hear the ringing battle cries as he fought hard for order, and Ihys, sympathetic fool, set chaos in his sights. He sees his brother’s hand outstretched, can feel the arm against his back, remembers what it tasted like to plunge his sword into his kin, but never feels the moment that some blade or nail sliced at his leg, has only blood upon his hands to prove that he was hit.

Some days the cut is barely there, a scratch upon his surface, a moment’s irritation as he moves from place to place. But other days, it festers into leaking, pulsing wetness, a shooting pain that drips and strikes and stops him where he stands. He spends those days in agony, sealed deep within the Catafalque, encouraging the rumors of his secret chamber of delights, returning only when the wound has calmed itself again.

He’s known, somewhere inside himself, that this would be what felled him, but somehow, in his final steps, he still feels disbelief. How can one cut unravel everything that he has been and done, the worlds that he has built and wrecked, the Hell he has created? He stumbles through the empty hall, his body crashing to the ground, a rictus of shocked agony carved deep into his face. Perhaps it is a mercy that he cannot see what happens next, does not perceive the brother who emerges in his place. Ihys, summoned by the force that kept the gash forever open. Ihys, who, with sorrowed glance, replaces him upon his throne. Ihys, who believed in taking mercy on the mortals, giving them their freedom even when they broke and twisted things, seeing good inside their souls as something worth the sacrifice. Ihys, now the Prince of Darkness. Ihys, Lord of Hell.

Deep inside the Catafalque, the new god works deliberately, taking time to understand the Hell his brother wrought. He finds a few things to preserve—the contract of creation and its binding power on the gods, the prison that holds Rovagug, whose key he’s now charged with keeping—and vows he will uphold them in Asmodeus’s name. The rest he’s ready to unmake, but slowly, with the greatest care. This time he will not act in haste. This time Hell works his way.

He first visits the archdevils, his enemies of ages past, who greet him with their surface smiles and offer false obeisance—some dripping poison-syruped words, some sharpening their blades and fangs, some gathering a mass of shades to wait for new wartime demands. But Ihys understands their ways and flaunts his new divinity, his scepter Archstar swinging in a show of all his power, and while the peace he gains from them may be a prelude to a war, he makes each of Hell’s denizens sign contracts to a new decree—a kinder, gentler punishment for those whose souls have damned them there, a way for those to free themselves who want to choose another path, a safe route as they journey back up from the depths of Hell.

He's visited by deities—some curious, some threatening—who see the shifting way of things and wish to understand. And while Pharasma alters how her psychopomps send souls to him and Sarenrae applauds an ancient ally on his newfound life, the Four Horsemen of Abaddon begin to seek advantages, to plan some future action they may one day undertake.

With Hell remade to suit his likings, Ihys settles on his throne, turns the power of his gaze to fixing mortal things. He pores through every contract that he must now enforce, underlining loopholes that invalidate the cruelest clauses, marking for destruction those he cannot bend or change. With every small relinquishing, the power in some region shifts, as those who felt their contract as a prison or a heavy weight now have the chance to change the old direction of their lives. But none change more than Cheliax, where House Thrune used the power gifted by the Lord of Hell himself to make the many contracts that have kept them on the throne. Ihys rescinds this favor and refuses to grant any more, leaves the realm of Abrogail to manage on its own.

As Ihys rests then, satisfied. He does not hear the whispers, as close as Mephistopheles and far off as Egorian, of bitterness and revolution, hanging in the air. Or if he does, he honors them as choices made of mortal will—whatever comes, he lives and breathes, and he can always start anew. If devils come to challenge him, if Cheliax is torn to shreds, he’s happy to rend everything (with Rovagug set free to feed) and make the world again.

An array of 20 portraits depicting the gods of the Pathfinder setting. Asmodeus and Pharasma’s portraits have been marked “safe.”;

While one might assume an end of Asmodeus’s treachery would presage improvements in the multiverse, this prophecy presents a very different potentiality.





I felt such relief while reading this to know that the death of Asmodeus (at least according to this still unproven and unidentified source) might not mean the release of the Rough Beast, only for the prophecy to suggest that Rovagug might still be unleashed? Those who claim that research has no excitement are simply in the wrong field of study. I also must confess that this prophecy has piqued my interest in learning more of the fallen god Ihys—a topic I might not otherwise have considered! It will, though, have to wait. I must reach some conclusion, and still have much to read through, before I can present this to my Lady.


About the Author

Erin Roberts has been thrilled to be able to contribute a few small threads to the fabric of Golarion in the pages of books like Lost Omens Firebrands, Lost Omens Highhelm, and Lost Omens Travel Guide. In addition to her work for Paizo, she freelances across the TTRPG world (and was selected as a Diana Jones Award Emerging Designer Program Winner in 2023), has had fiction published in magazines including Asimov’s, Clarkesworld, and The Dark, and talks about writing every week on the Writing Excuses podcast. Catch up with her latest at linktr.ee/erinroberts.

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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

I bet Iomedae will survive. Arazni and Iomedae together is a good opportunity for conflict, thus driving the narrative!

As to whom will die .. Sarenrae? Her clergy is beloved in Golarion, she's also a bit of a symbol of hope. There would be grave consequences.


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AceofMoxen wrote:

My Money is still on Torag to bite it.

Or, maybe we get more than one dead deity.

Only one of the core 20 is dying. There's an unknown number of others also biting it.


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lotrotk wrote:
I bet Iomedae will survive. Arazni and Iomedae together is a good opportunity for conflict, thus driving the narrative!

Right?! Development between Arazni and Iomedae was something that I was hoping for since the reveal of her freedom - it would be such a loss to me if nothing is done with it and then Iomedae just bites it...


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I'm still in on Urgathoa biting it. We know Arazni is filling the void and while the portfolios don't need to line up, the fact that Arazni and Urgathoa truly hate each other would make having them coexist be difficult. After all, the two beings in the Universe that Arazni hates the most are Tar-Baphon, who killed her, and Geb who desecrated her corpse. Not only would killing Urgathoa be a way of getting back at both of them, but reportedly Urgathoa is in possession of Tar Baphon's soul cage so the only way that's going to end up in a place where it could be destroyed is if Urgathoa is out of the way.

After all, the main sword of damocles in the metaplot is "when is Tar-Baphon going to make his move" and we've already laid the groundwork for everything we'd need for telling that story.

I mean "War of Immortals" doesn't just mean gods, prominent liches and ghost kings are also immortal.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Sturmjaeger wrote:

I was kinda hoping they'd scrap Asmo. He feels a little too attached to the other game.

Also, it'd be interesting to see the changes to Cheliax.

But he is safe, so be it.

At this point I think it's most likely to be one of the Good gods involved in some of the bigger 2E storylines - so Iomedae and Sarenrae are in danger - since that would unbalance the storyline in favor of forces like Cheliax and Tar-Baphon, putting the world in danger (again).


Pathfinder Maps Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Enjoying the stories so far. The anticipation is killing me


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Kittyburger wrote:
Stormlord506 wrote:
Yeah I still think it's gonna be Iomedae.

At this point I wouldn't be surprised. Killing Iomedae would drastically alter the setting in a way that gives evil a fairly significant upper hand, since it destroys one of the primary counterweights to setting big bads like Cheliax and the Whispering Tyrant.

And if there's anything I've learned over the last 20 years of gaming, it's that grimdark sells A LOT of copies.

I definitely think it'll be one of the good gods. But I'm actually wondering if it wouldn't be MORE disruptive to kill off Sarenrae. IIRC, she's the more popular of the two, especially with the Cult of the Dawnflower. If Sarenrae died, then we get a s&*@load of political chaos in the Inner Sea, and an opportunity for a much more malevolent deity or force to step into the power vacuum. Imagine if it looks like Qadira is going to turn into the next Cheliax... and with Sarenrae gone, the crusaders of Iomedae will be among the leaders of the response, and I'm totally sure they will easily adapt to the political complexities and not go charging in to smite evildoers without regard for consequences.

Liberty's Edge

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Anorak wrote:
Ashanderai wrote:
I'm leaning towards the "one" to die being Gozreh. With the Elemental Lords being around, Gozreh always felt more superfluous to me than the other gods. Now, after Rage of Elements and the return of more Elemental Lords, I feel that way even more strongly.
I like this. Removing Gozreh would make room for Arazni, who is a much more interesting god for players.

I think it will not be Gozreh because who would even want to kill them ?

Liberty's Edge

PossibleCabbage wrote:

I'm still in on Urgathoa biting it. We know Arazni is filling the void and while the portfolios don't need to line up, the fact that Arazni and Urgathoa truly hate each other would make having them coexist be difficult. After all, the two beings in the Universe that Arazni hates the most are Tar-Baphon, who killed her, and Geb who desecrated her corpse. Not only would killing Urgathoa be a way of getting back at both of them, but reportedly Urgathoa is in possession of Tar Baphon's soul cage so the only way that's going to end up in a place where it could be destroyed is if Urgathoa is out of the way.

After all, the main sword of damocles in the metaplot is "when is Tar-Baphon going to make his move" and we've already laid the groundwork for everything we'd need for telling that story.

I mean "War of Immortals" doesn't just mean gods, prominent liches and ghost kings are also immortal.

Last point makes me think we might also see the final showdown between Geb and Nex.

Liberty's Edge

Among the last 10, I foresee Cayden Cailean because players love him, ditto for Sarenrae. Zon-kuthon because how he would react to Shelyn's death as a What If is much more interesting than the other way around. And Urgathoa to keep uncertainty about the future fate of Tar Baphon.


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Ashanderai wrote:
I'm leaning towards the "one" to die being Gozreh. With the Elemental Lords being around, Gozreh always felt more superfluous to me than the other gods. Now, after Rage of Elements and the return of more Elemental Lords, I feel that way even more strongly.

I have a minor argument against Gozreh biting it: worship of Shimye-Magalla, the union of them and Desna, is one of the defining traits of the Mwangi Bonuwat people. While that lore's hardly scaffolding all of Golarion, it's a bit of that region that I think would be a shame to see fall away with Gozreh's death.

I also don't see how it would spark a war between the other deities. Someone on either Team Holy or Team Unholy feels much more likely as an inciting incident, IMO.


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Double Posting: is the "leg wound" here meant to evoke the Fisher King of Arthurian legend?


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keftiu wrote:
This one was super fun, thank you! And it puts to rest the theory that Asmodeus would be a casualty of the OGL fiasco.

That never seemed like a viable theory to me. Aside from the fact that this event was planned long before the OGL mess, since Asmodeus has been part of the mythology of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam for centuries I can't see how Hasbro could assert ownership of the character.


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This pretty much confirms to me that Sarenrae is going to bite the dust. She's probably the most popular deity of the setting and the ones with the most allies that would want to avenge her. She also has a fair amount of enemies too. Most of the other deities like Gozreh, Erastil, or Torag are IMO too niche and I doubt the community would make a big fuss if they happened to die. Also, the in-universe consequences of their deities would probably be kinda...inconsequential for the most part? I mean it in the sense that I don't see how you would be able to make a whole adventure around PCs likely wanting to avenge either of those, yet with Sarenrae I see it way more plausible even if I myself I don't care much about her.

I also think it is really Paizo-like to release part 1 of an AP in which you meet a Sarenite PC that is very likeable and by the end she either dies or Sarenrae dies and (if she's a cleric) she loses her powers and that motivates the PCs to go further into the AP to help her in some way.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
exequiel759 wrote:

This pretty much confirms to me that Sarenrae is going to bite the dust. She's probably the most popular deity of the setting and the ones with the most allies that would want to avenge her. She also has a fair amount of enemies too. Most of the other deities like Gozreh, Erastil, or Torag are IMO too niche and I doubt the community would make a big fuss if they happened to die. Also, the in-universe consequences of their deities would probably be kinda...inconsequential for the most part? I mean it in the sense that I don't see how you would be able to make a whole adventure around PCs likely wanting to avenge either of those, yet with Sarenrae I see it way more plausible even if I myself I don't care much about her.

I also think it is really Paizo-like to release part 1 of an AP in which you meet a Sarenite PC that is very likeable and by the end she either dies or Sarenrae dies and (if she's a cleric) she loses her powers and that motivates the PCs to go further into the AP to help her in some way.

It also amuses me that in the event Sarenrae bites it, a part of her lives on since she exists in Exandria as Raei/the Everlight.


keftiu wrote:
Double Posting: is the "leg wound" here meant to evoke the Fisher King of Arthurian legend?

Oh oh oh, I knew that felt familiar!

Thank you.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Pathfinder Accessories, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
keftiu wrote:


I have a minor argument against Gozreh biting it: worship of Shimye-Magalla, the union of them and Desna, is one of the defining traits of the Mwangi Bonuwat people. While that lore's hardly scaffolding all of Golarion, it's a bit of that region that I think would be a shame to see fall away with Gozreh's death.

I also don't see how it would spark a war between the other deities. Someone on either Team Holy or Team Unholy feels much more likely as an inciting incident, IMO.

Solid insight. I'd forgotten about that bit of lore.

keftiu wrote:
I also don't see how it would spark a war between the other deities. Someone on either Team Holy or Team Unholy feels much more likely as an inciting incident, IMO.

See that is why I leaned into Asmodeus being the one to fall due to the impact his passing would have. Then add in that Asmodeus is Ruler of Hell in both D&D and Golarion. But this blog post went a long way in showing how distinct they are and Gisher makes another excellent point.

The counter to Asmodeus is Sarenrae and would connect to the hint that the Prismatic Ray changes.


The Raven Black wrote:
Among the last 10, I foresee Cayden Cailean because players love him, ditto for Sarenrae. Zon-kuthon because how he would react to Shelyn's death as a What If is much more interesting than the other way around. And Urgathoa to keep uncertainty about the future fate of Tar Baphon.

Oh that's something I hadn't taken into account; which what-if stories would be the most interesting to read about. Now, under that metric... I think there'd be some of the "who even cares" gods NOT in the last ten, to show us why we SHOULD care. "It's free real estate" (do people even know that meme here?) on showing the role a god plays and expanding our knowledge of their character, without having to devote the time and effort needed for the full thing in a book.

So I'm hoping that we'll get at least one of Gozreh and Erastil in here, as "what happens if this one dies" is a good way of distinguishing them. (I mean, assuming that neither of them is the one to actually die, in which case, yeah that would ABSOLUTELY distinguish them....)


What if Gorum dies? The god of battle dying would lead to a power vacuum, and the minor gods of battle would fight for the title...


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Sarenrae is the one deity who you'd think "if she dies on page 1, she'll be up and running again by the end." Since "the phoenix rises from the ashes" and "the sun is always going to rise again" is absolutely in her wheelhouse.

Like Sarenrae (because she'll just get better) and Shyka (because you'll never run out of them) are the two deities that I believe you just *can't* kill.

Of course if they do "kill" Sarenrae, I think it's plausible she'll return in a temporarily lessened capacity for a bit, like how Groot was Baby Groot for a while.


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Add Rovagug to that list (and Groetus too). Major part of the setting just rest on the fact that they simply can't die. The only way I see for Rovagug to "die" is if something else and just as bad or worse burst out from It's corpse and take over It's portfolio of being the apocalypse incarnated (like the big black hole deity from starfinder that is pretty much Rovagug in cosmic form).

And killing Rovagug just to swap it with "Twovagug" feel lame, so Rovagug can't die.


Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Personally I'm most interested in them taking one of the "neutral"-ish deities out. But that starts out as considering it the "compromise" solution

killing an evil god is safe -- less impactful to as many player characters (probably), but more boring from an author/creative side in a lot of ways.

Flip those pros/cons around for the Good side of things.

Gorum, Gozreh, Irori, Nethys sit in the middle and probably impact fewer characters than the Good deities, but still more than the evil ones. I feel they've been a little less developed over the years, so there's not as much for fans to latch onto. Which feels like it could be a great opportunity to shake things up. Gorum, Gozreh, and Nethys in particular feel like their death could open up a vacuum/space for something interesting to explore/replace. Irori feels more insular, so less impactful. While I would have considered Pharasma in this clump, I always figured she'd be safe just due to her role in the cosmology.


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keftiu wrote:
I think Urgathoa is safe, because she's so tangled up in the Arazni/Tar-Baphon storyline that I see resolving later on... so I'm deeply curious what her death-prophecy looks like. Maybe Zira steps up!

I'm hoping her prophacy involves all the undead-themed Demon Lords and possibly the Horsemen somehow ganging up on her and carving her up to enrich themselves.

It'd be pretty poetic for the goddess of gluttony, who tried to step outside the cycle of life and death, to wind up as meat on a divine table.

Liberty's Edge

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If I were a betting man I'd still put my money on Nethys. His entire existence is generally defined as being a divine being of warring halves constantly battling for internal control.

In any SERIOUS conflict where he would have to step in he would likely end up unbalanced and falling, probably entirely, toward his destructive side, and in the process would also destroy himself, a handful of other Deities who were unwise enough not to stand at least 3 universes away, the entire plane he inhabited, and any enemies he could perceive through the rage and pain. The creation portion of him represents how his power, one of the most supreme powers in the setting for that matter, would be used as the spark of not only mortals inheriting a sliver of his might and creating a whole new classification of not-quite mortal, not quite demigod beings but also bringing the whole of the setting into a new era.

Look at what happened when Aroden died, as Deific and powerful as he was he didn't wield much more than a tea light worth of magical power compared to the supernova that Nethys COULD wield if he weren't basically Mr. Do-Nothing Neutral in his own right. The consequences of his departure, I imagine, would be a FAR sight more impactful than churches going abandoned, some relics falling planetside, some political and relationship hub-bub, and the creation of a permanent super-hurricane.

Besides that, the dude is a living bomb of magical energy that's only barely kept in balance, any serious disturbance of those scales (such as some conflict he might end up having to be a part of or "injury" he might sustain), in my eyes, would probably create an infinite chain reaction as his destructive side overtakes him completely which leads to his inevitable destruction since he can only really exist when he is in balance.


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PossibleCabbage wrote:

Sarenrae is the one deity who you'd think "if she dies on page 1, she'll be up and running again by the end." Since "the phoenix rises from the ashes" and "the sun is always going to rise again" is absolutely in her wheelhouse.

Like Sarenrae (because she'll just get better) and Shyka (because you'll never run out of them) are the two deities that I believe you just *can't* kill.

Of course if they do "kill" Sarenrae, I think it's plausible she'll return in a temporarily lessened capacity for a bit, like how Groot was Baby Groot for a while.

Except they already confirmed that they aren't going to pull out a "we technically killed the god, but we resurrect it later". Not like they needed to confirm that, because if the make a big fuss about the a deity death and they then resurrect it immediately aftewards it would be really lame.

Sovereign Court

Project: J-ko wrote:

Well there goes my theory of Calistria getting saved for Valentine's Day. :p

Even if people want to argue it, Valentines is just as much Lust as it is Love. Plus the whole month of February is banned after Calistria in the setting.


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Re Sarenrae and returning: another way to avoid the "lol no she's back again" thing would be to have it that yes, she'll return; but the time scale for that phoenix is on the order of centuries to millennia.
I don't think this is what would HAPPEN, but it's a possible way to kill in the narrative someone who won't stay dead, without having the effects immediately revert themselves.

I think it'd be an interesting concept to explore; not necessarily in canon, but still. How long can one god's church remain as a cohesive entity, when their god is (temporarily but still) dead, and there's other gods out there who would just be sooo happyyyy to answer their prayers instead? Like, we've seen with Aroden, how people move to worshipping a different god. But what if you knew for a fact that a) your god is dead at the moment, b) your god will come back, and c) it won't be within the lifetime of an elf's grandchild? How much energy are you going to spend on keeping that torch lit for when that god eventually returns?


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exequiel759 wrote:
Except they already confirmed that they aren't going to pull out a "we technically killed the god, but we resurrect it later". Not like they needed to confirm that, because if the make a big fuss about the a deity death and they then resurrect it immediately aftewards it would be really lame.

If they wanted to sell the "we're not going to resurrect the god who dies, they're gone for good" thing as something to take seriously, the way to do that is to kill any deity for whom "coming back again" isn't inherently part of their deal. So the fire/sun goddess is still a bad choice for this.

I have to believe the story that Paizo is setting up to tell is one they think is a good one, and having people constantly second guessing the narrative a la "yeah, but is Sarenrae really dead?" doesn't strike me as the makings of a great story.

Sovereign Court

Even if people want to argue it, Valentines is just as much Lust as it is Love. Plus the whole month of February is banned after Calistria in the setting.

I’m not sure how to edit but… NAMED after Calistria, not banned. I was not watching my typing lol


The Raven Black wrote:
Anorak wrote:
Ashanderai wrote:
I'm leaning towards the "one" to die being Gozreh. With the Elemental Lords being around, Gozreh always felt more superfluous to me than the other gods. Now, after Rage of Elements and the return of more Elemental Lords, I feel that way even more strongly.
I like this. Removing Gozreh would make room for Arazni, who is a much more interesting god for players.
I think it will not be Gozreh because who would even want to kill them ?

I don't think Gozreh's going to bite the dust, but if I was going to write it, I'd have them get dragged into the Charon/Hanspur feud. Hanspur is on the ropes and flees to Gozreh as a last ditch attempt at safety with his putative creator, and now we've brought the Horsemen into play and maybe do something with the Oinodaemon/Bound Prince which plays back into undeveloped bits of the Windsong Testament.


Scarablob wrote:

My guess is that they are starting with the "biggest", most far reaching ones, because they are those that create the most interesting and strange scenario if they do die, while the death of an ascended mortal wouldn't have quite that much of an impact on the cosmic scale. So they would make for less interesting "prophecies".

Which would mean that if they "skip" one of the big god, their odds of being the one that kick the bucket would suddently skyrocket. Altho it wouldn't be hard to skip a few of them to create false leads.

Pharasma was chosen to be first as a birthday present to one of the writers. We realistically only have this blog to determine an order, and theres a ton of patterns that could start with Asmodeus. Also just for narrative sake, some of the biggest, most impactful deaths should be saved for last for dramatic effect.

Personally, I think Abadar would be the most interesting, but not that likely. I would also like it if the entire Egyptian pantheon died so we can actually get some interesting Osirion gods.


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Could name labels be added to the portraits that have been marked as safe. It would help a great deal when not recognising the entity of the portrait.


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Jan Caltrop wrote:

Re Sarenrae and returning: another way to avoid the "lol no she's back again" thing would be to have it that yes, she'll return; but the time scale for that phoenix is on the order of centuries to millennia.

I don't think this is what would HAPPEN, but it's a possible way to kill in the narrative someone who won't stay dead, without having the effects immediately revert themselves.

I think it'd be an interesting concept to explore; not necessarily in canon, but still. How long can one god's church remain as a cohesive entity, when their god is (temporarily but still) dead, and there's other gods out there who would just be sooo happyyyy to answer their prayers instead? Like, we've seen with Aroden, how people move to worshipping a different god. But what if you knew for a fact that a) your god is dead at the moment, b) your god will come back, and c) it won't be within the lifetime of an elf's grandchild? How much energy are you going to spend on keeping that torch lit for when that god eventually returns?

Ask the Church of Ydersius; they've been keeping the faith alive ever since the Azlanti were a thing and cut their god's head off.


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PossibleCabbage wrote:

Sarenrae is the one deity who you'd think "if she dies on page 1, she'll be up and running again by the end." Since "the phoenix rises from the ashes" and "the sun is always going to rise again" is absolutely in her wheelhouse.

Like Sarenrae (because she'll just get better) and Shyka (because you'll never run out of them) are the two deities that I believe you just *can't* kill.

Of course if they do "kill" Sarenrae, I think it's plausible she'll return in a temporarily lessened capacity for a bit, like how Groot was Baby Groot for a while.

"The sun is always going to rise again" isn't something you can say with confidence in a setting that had a thousand year Age of Darkness. I don't think it'll be Sarenrae either but... don't count her out.

Dark Archive

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Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Nature =/= Elements tbh.

Anyway, technically this blog doesn't disprove my headcanon of there being multiple Asmodeus or him having been secretly replaced couple times xP

Liberty's Edge

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Scarablob wrote:

Add Rovagug to that list (and Groetus too). Major part of the setting just rest on the fact that they simply can't die. The only way I see for Rovagug to "die" is if something else and just as bad or worse burst out from It's corpse and take over It's portfolio of being the apocalypse incarnated (like the big black hole deity from starfinder that is pretty much Rovagug in cosmic form).

And killing Rovagug just to swap it with "Twovagug" feel lame, so Rovagug can't die.

I hope we'll get the What If Rovagug story but with the twist that he has actually been dead for a long long time.


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Why are gods ordered by alignments? I thought they were a thing of the past.
Proper classification (by holyness) should have been:

Iomedae
Cayden Cailean, Desna, Erastil, Sarenrae, Shelyn, Torag
Abadar, Calistria, Gorum, Irori, Nethys / Gozreh, Pharasma
Lamashtu, Norgorber, Zon-Kuthon
Asmodeus, Rovagug, Urgathoa


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Well, Azzy was one of my two main bets, so that leaves my marker on Calistria sitting out there...

Dark Archive

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I think I have to open up about why I'm hoping it isn't Erastil, Torag or Abadar :'D

One of my players is basically thinking that god who dies is 100% going to be LG or LN god that "Paizo doesn't like" and it would be really bad for me if they are proven to be right x'D


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SuperBidi wrote:

Iomedae

Cayden Cailean, Desna, Erastil, Sarenrae, Shelyn, Torag
Abadar, Calistria, Gorum, Irori, Nethys / Gozreh, Pharasma
Lamashtu, Norgorber, Zon-Kuthon
Asmodeus, Rovagug, Urgathoa

Seeing this list written out like this tickles my brain a little. I like how there are cleanly three "completely evil" deities and three "you can have evil as a treat, but you don't need it" in terms of the expected commitment to cruelty and harm.

Likewise, interesting that almost all the goodly deities give you the option to join the war or not except, naturally, the holy warrior goddess of knights. ... Seeing Iomedae stand out from the rest of the pantheon like that does make me wonder...


The way I see it, each core 20 god has their own "thing", with most overlapping somewhere with the others. Urgathoa is the undead god, Torag is the dwarf god, Irori is the monk god, etc. And which god has the most overlap?

Iomedae.

She's basically the default ideal good-aligned goddess, she doesn't really have anything unique, she isn't (from my understanding, don't @me) extremely integral to the setting, and any followers she has probably could jump ship to Sarenrae or another god with a similar disposition.

I know that Luis and some others have said time and time again that things like this have absolutely nothing to do with which god gets axed, but I just don't buy it.

Liberty's Edge

Stormlord506 wrote:

The way I see it, each core 20 god has their own "thing", with most overlapping somewhere with the others. Urgathoa is the undead god, Torag is the dwarf god, Irori is the monk god, etc. And which god has the most overlap?

Iomedae.

She's basically the default ideal good-aligned goddess, she doesn't really have anything unique, she isn't (from my understanding, don't @me) extremely integral to the setting, and any followers she has probably could jump ship to Sarenrae or another god with a similar disposition.

I know that Luis and some others have said time and time again that things like this have absolutely nothing to do with which god gets axed, but I just don't buy it.

Iomedae is the Paladin goddess.

Cayden Cailean is much more generic IMO as he is basically the adventurer made god.


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The Raven Black wrote:
Stormlord506 wrote:

...Iomedae.

She's basically the default ideal good-aligned goddess, she doesn't really have anything unique, she isn't (from my understanding, don't @me) extremely integral to the setting, and any followers she has probably could jump ship to Sarenrae or another god with a similar disposition...

Iomedae is the Paladin goddess.

Cayden Cailean is much more generic IMO as he is basically the adventurer made god.

Nah, none of the other core 20 are anything like him in terms of personally. Cayden Cailean is the fun uncle of the core 20 and I wouldn't have it any other way. No way in hell Paizo would try to pull something off on him

(please mr john paizo i beg)


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They won't axe Cayden.

I'm not that lucky. <_<


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Sibelius Eos Owm wrote:

Seeing this list written out like this tickles my brain a little. I like how there are cleanly three "completely evil" deities and three "you can have evil as a treat, but you don't need it" in terms of the expected commitment to cruelty and harm.

Likewise, interesting that almost all the goodly deities give you the option to join the war or not except, naturally, the holy warrior goddess of knights. ... Seeing Iomedae stand out from the rest of the pantheon like that does make me wonder...

When alignments were a thing, Paizo created deities for each alignment, in general 2 by 2 so everyone had a bit of choice (only true neutral and Lawful Good had 3 deities).

Without alignments, I think it's more from a player point of view that holyness has to be understood:
- Must be holy has to be extremely rare, as it's limiting player choice. That's why only Iomedae has it even if in the past both Shelyn and Sarenrae were not accepting neutral Clerics.
- Must be unholy is a similar limitation, it means unavailable to players in most tables. There are divinities like Rovagug that must never be around a table where the expected alignment is neutral/good. For an unknown reason, Paizo also refuses all devil/demon/daemon archlords.
- Can be unholy are the acceptable evil, the ones you can see around your table because their evil domains are not too disruptive.

That's why the boxes don't have the same size at all. Because the goal is not to provide deities for each box but to decide which are playable options and which are not.

And I think this system opens up more choice. In the past, you had the "good campaigns" where all characters were good or neutral, the "evil campaigns" where all characters were evil or neutral and the mixed campaign where everything was allowed (with sometimes a limitation for chaotic evil).

Now, you have much more choice:
- Very good campaign: All the deities that allow you to choose Holy or who don't allow you to choose Unholy. Unholy characters forbidden.
- Good campaign with lesser evil accepted: All deities but the "must choose Unholy". Unholy characters forbidden.
- Neutral campaign: All deities but the "must choose". Holy and Unholy characters forbidden.
- Evil campaign with lesser good accepted: All deities but the "must choose Holy". Holy characters forbidden.
- Evil campaign: All the deities that allow you to choose Unholy or who don't allow you to choose Holy. Holy characters forbidden.
- Completely mixed campaign: No limit.

For example, if you wanted a campaign about pirates that were not evil, you had in the past either the mixed campaign or good campaign choice. But you had no way to prevent a Paladin in your campaign, so you had to tell your players: Please, you are pirates, don't play a Paladin.
With this new system, you can tell your players that it's a neutral campaign. So no Holy nor Unholy. It guarantees that your pirates won't try to save the world (or try to destroy it).

So I quite like it as you can now easily define options for neutral campaigns, something that was not easily done in the past.

Grand Archive

Razmir, The TRUE LIVING GOD wrote:
Again, I am still safe. Thank you for your concern.

Razmir is not among the Core 20, so shall never be safe! Though if he's collateral damage, that would make the next Living Lodge scenario verrrry interesting...

In other thoughts, it could be Torag who's dying, since he's "missing" in Starfinder, but that seems far too obvious for the payoff we're expecting here.


My take on the ascended gods is that they all are "ascended PC archetypes", Iomedae is the most paladin that ever paladinned, Norgorber the most rogue that rogued, Irori the most monk that monked, ect. Cayden however don't feel like an incarnation of any one PC, but the incarnation of the most stereotipical party. They meet in a tavern, are chaotic good, mostly mess around and try to have fun but still do so heroically, especially target slavers above all, are orphans, etc.

It does make him both very generic in his themes, but also pretty special because there aren't usually a deity that is this "on the nose" about being taylor made for the stereotipical pathfinder/dnd party.


SuperBidi wrote:
...stuff...

Just an excellent write-up. I was already on-board with all of the alignment changes but this really added a lot of life to it.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Well, dang. I had hopes that Mephistopheles would step up as the new lord of Hell. The false prophecy is really fun to read as well. One almost wishes that this lie were true, Garak-style. "Especially the lies".

Still worried about Saranrae. I hope she'll be the next one to be declared "safe".


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Scarablob wrote:
Cayden however don't feel like an incarnation of any one PC, but the incarnation of the most stereotipical party.

Maybe around your tables, but clearly not a stereotypical party to me. I associate Cayden Cailean with the archetypical Swashbuckler, personally.

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