Lost Omens Special Recap

Yeah lawful and chaos especially have issues because, with how it's described in pretty much every book, following a religion is by its nature is lawful, which seems like an issue for chaotic gods.

Not all beliefs follow a strictly organized religion.

Actually we do not. The authors have clarified that nothing can be inferred from this book about which Core 20 deity dies.

They all die, and are replaced by clones, except for one chosen at random, who is replaced by Arazni, who orchestrates the whole thing. :-)

Well. I gotta say, this particular alignment debate? It's really selling that whole "throwing out alignment" thing to me. Like, "Is Arazni Good of Evil?" isn't even the right question to ask.

At it's core, "Good" and "Evil" in a D&D sense are just labels that we hang on people so that we can more easily figure out which ones we're allowed to stab without having to feel bad about it after. That's pretty much it. Well, turns out that different people have different ideas about who it's okay to stab. I'm pretty happy about the fact that we're growing past this crutch, and past the idea that there's any sort of absolute or objective answer to the stabbing question.

But there being an external part of the game that you could not just ignore meant the majority of people had to consider it even a little.

I mostly want to disagree just to be contrary, but I will agree that having the framework did prompt a lot of people that might otherwise not engage.

MEATSHED wrote:

Yeah lawful and chaos especially have issues because, with how it's described in pretty much every book, following a religion is by its nature is lawful, which seems like an issue for chaotic gods.

Not all beliefs follow a strictly organized religion.

Yes but that isn't what being lawful is. If you follow a code, even if it's an entirely personally one that you made up, that is lawful.

What if your code is follow no codes?

Yes but that isn't what being lawful is. If you follow a code, even if it's an entirely personally one that you made up, that is lawful.

I'm not sure if you are trying to apply game mechanics terms to real life, or use real life to require game mechanics. But in either case, please stop. It isn't helpful and probably not logically valid.

The Raven Black wrote:

MEATSHED wrote:

Yeah lawful and chaos especially have issues because, with how it's described in pretty much every book, following a religion is by its nature is lawful, which seems like an issue for chaotic gods.

Not all beliefs follow a strictly organized religion.

Yes but that isn't what being lawful is. If you follow a code, even if it's an entirely personally one that you made up, that is lawful.

That is one take on Lawful. It's far from the only one.

Well. I gotta say, this particular alignment debate? It's really selling that whole "throwing out alignment" thing to me. Like, "Is Arazni Good of Evil?" isn't even the right question to ask.

At it's core, "Good" and "Evil" in a D&D sense are just labels that we hang on people so that we can more easily figure out which ones we're allowed to stab without having to feel bad about it after. That's pretty much it. Well, turns out that different people have different ideas about who it's okay to stab. I'm pretty happy about the fact that we're growing past this crutch, and past the idea that there's any sort of absolute or objective answer to the stabbing question.

That is never how I saw Good and Evil. Evil is likely to do Evil acts and Good is likely to do Good acts. That's it.

Okay to stab is the people who actively try to hurt me or my friends or innocent people.

TBT I have never seen a game where Evil alignment means kill-on-sight.

MEATSHED wrote:

The Raven Black wrote:

MEATSHED wrote:

Yeah lawful and chaos especially have issues because, with how it's described in pretty much every book, following a religion is by its nature is lawful, which seems like an issue for chaotic gods.

Not all beliefs follow a strictly organized religion.

Yes but that isn't what being lawful is. If you follow a code, even if it's an entirely personally one that you made up, that is lawful.

That is one take on Lawful. It's far from the only one.

It's the one that's in the core rulebook's alignment section

"Lawful characters have a set system in life, whether it’s meticulously planning day-to-day activities, carefully following a set of official or unofficial laws, or strictly adhering to a code of honor"

It's the one that's in the core rulebook's alignment section

"Lawful characters have a set system in life, whether it’s meticulously planning day-to-day activities, carefully following a set of official or unofficial laws, or strictly adhering to a code of honor"

Oh. Right. That one. The one that is being removed.

So glad we are still discussing that.

Karneios wrote:

It's the one that's in the core rulebook's alignment section

"Lawful characters have a set system in life, whether it’s meticulously planning day-to-day activities, carefully following a set of official or unofficial laws, or strictly adhering to a code of honor"

Oh. Right. That one. The one that is being removed.

So glad we are still discussing that.

And we will likely keep on discussing it for some time after the Remaster.

Old habits die hard.

..it's exciting having your culture be seen for once (instead of treated lesser).

It most certainly is, and please, keep sharing with us. I for one am so glad to see you so excited about this, and so willing to share more of your culture with us. I am US born and raised and have never had the chance to travel, so for me, reading about other peoples' cultures and folklore and lifestyles is exciting and enriching. I am glad when Paizo can represent those cultures correctly, and even more so when they turn to the people who have lived those cultures and stories and give them the chance to share it with the rest of us. Seeing how excited YOU are for these books makes ME even more excited for them as well :-)

I don't think the labels "good" and "evil" are meaningless even if they don't have mechanical relevance.

At the very least it's worth asking whether Arazni is a decent person or admirable. The original point, for the record, was whether she'd side with Tar-Baphon, and if her ascension would cripple him. I think the answer is a fairly obvious "it can't help".

But morally? That's still a talk worth having. Might require actually looking into ethics, but still.

It most certainly is, and please, keep sharing with us. I for one am so glad to see you so excited about this, and so willing to share more of your culture with us. I am US born and raised and have never had the chance to travel, so for me, reading about other peoples' cultures and folklore and lifestyles is exciting and enriching. I am glad when Paizo can represent those cultures correctly, and even more so when they turn to the people who have lived those cultures and stories and give them the chance to share it with the rest of us. Seeing how excited YOU are for these books makes ME even more excited for them as well :-)

Thank you, that means actually means a lot. I've been blessed to meet people from all over the world and also travel across the world too. And it's wonderful seeing and participating in other people's worlds. So, I get excited when I can recognize other people's cultures too.

I guess to share some other stuff I noticed from the 3 pictures and what they reminded me of:

[Fish Gun Lady]

The Philippines is divided into 3 major regions: Luzon (North), Visayas (South), and Mindanao (South). Mindanao, due its proximity to the Indonesian islands, had a lot of influence from Indian/Muslim traders along the famous Indian Ocean Trade Route which influenced a lot of their music, clothing, and religion. Being connected to the trade routes, they were amazing sailors and fishers.

Additionally, due to the proximity, they gained access to the introduction of cannons. Cannons have long been part of various Island Southeast Asia history. Uniquely, 'lantaka' (in most languages) are known as swivel-guns. They were placed at the front of the ship and could be aimed. Funnily, in the Lost Omens video, when they talked about the Tekkogo(?)-Shogunate's failed invasion of Minata, it's very similar to the failed Mongol (Yuan Dynasty) invasion of Indonesia. A little mixing around (the Shogunate invasion of Asia was actually to Korea). This is also where guns were first introduced, but even more information came from the Ottoman traders (you know, the famous bombard civ).

And it wasn't just Mindanao that had access to cannons. In the north (Luzon), a blacksmith by the name of Pira (officially Panday Pira) started an artillery foundry in Old Manila (14 years prior to European contact via Magellan). And his cannons were used in the defense of the city against the conquistador. He was considered one of the greatest Filipino blacksmiths to the conquistadors.

Oh and where was Panday Pira from? The South!

So, Fish Gun Lady is a beautiful representation of Southern Philippines: the hijab, being an amazing sailor, and of course guns!

[Fan Lady]

It took me awhile to remember this, but there is a famous Mindanao drama-dance of the Princess Gandingan as she is attacked by the spirits/gods (diwatas) in the form of an earthquake. She casually and gracefully evades the falling trees and uneven ground, accompanied by her handmaiden who does tries to keep the princess under her parasol. Meanwhile, Prince Bantugan goes to rescue her. It's a fantastic performance known as Singkil and is absolutely worth watching (sometimes confused with Tinikling, another popular Filipino dance from the rural colonial north). Both became popular due to the use dancing between sticks.

But, there are props used to identify the characters. Prince Bantugan with his sword and shield. The handmaiden and her parasols. And Princess Gandigan? Her elegant dress and two fans. :)

[The Festival]

Something I noticed in the picture are the dancers standing on wooden beams that are being carried. What is this from? It's the Vinta dance! The dance is also from Southern Philippines and it's where dancers stand poles, where the dancers carrying it will dip and bend to imitate the waves and the dancer show off their skill, balance, and grace. And in some Singkil performances, Vinta is usually mixed into the background.

I think one that showcases is a video called Melengas Dance Company where they do Singkil and another called Pagdadian City which showcases what the dance and festivals in the picture showns could be like. But honestly, it's REALLY hard to find a bad Singkil performance online. They go all out in terms of costumes and dancing skills.

But ya, it reminded me that while most of us in the US never heard the mythologies and stories from home, a lot of culture was transferred through dance and shown to us in (the myriad) of dance performances done at colleges and high schools. Like....there's a LOT (A LOT) of dances and they're all very diverse representing indigenous tribal culture, the various Mindanao cultures, rural colonial culture, upper class colonial culture, etc..

Again, I'm not fully sure what all the references are that Paizo is using (coz again, the Philippines is large and diverse), but at least that's some of the stuff that feel familiar to me and even though my family comes from the North - it's still super exciting seeing pre-Colonial stuff so prominently highlighted! (Also, it makes sense as Minata is Southeast Asia, which includes Indonesian culture - such as the Wayang ancestry - and Mindanao was a gateway for the rest of Maritime Southeast Asia to enter the Philippine Islands).

Yeah that's a really cool read, thanks for sharing more :3

That was really cool to learn, Thank you so much for sharing!

I don't think the labels "good" and "evil" are meaningless even if they don't have mechanical relevance.

At the very least it's worth asking whether Arazni is a decent person or admirable. The original point, for the record, was whether she'd side with Tar-Baphon, and if her ascension would cripple him. I think the answer is a fairly obvious "it can't help".

But morally? That's still a talk worth having. Might require actually looking into ethics, but still.

I'm not going to say that moral questions are not worthwhile. I agree that "good" and "evil" have meaning in a wider sense... but I think that they're massively overused (just like basically everything that has real rhetorical heft is these days), and the fact that they were a Game Rules Thing meant that the "is this person Good or Evil" was given way more focus than it really ought to have.

I think that the idea of Arazni siding with Tar-Baphon is pretty ridiculous here. I think "despise and never forgive those who have hurt you" kicks in regardless of how morally admirable you happen to think she is right now, and that if she ever gets a chance to do him real, lasting harm she'll take it in a heartbeat. I also note that Geb isn't one of The 20, so it's unlikely that she's still/again shackled in any real way. I'm pretty sure that Arazni's ascension means that Tar-Baphon is in for at least a few Bad Days.

I mean, yeah, we can expect some character changes from her too, but if anything I'd expect her to get a bit more "good" than the last time we saw her, and I'm pretty sure that that isn't going to make her less likely to want to tear chunks out of the Whispering Tyrant. Like, I could totally see New Arazni going with some form of "Righteous vengeance against those who have oppressed and tormented me is an important part of my self-care routine".

...and also, the other side of the "is this Good or Evil" thing... is that taking it out of the game rules means that we stop telling ourselves that it's a matter of objective fact. Good and Evil are subjective, and always have been. People often agree on the broad strokes, and I'm glad of that, but there's generally at least some difference of opinion. Most faiths and religious practices will claim that they have a line on what Good and Evil really is, but they all disagree with one another. In their context, you can have that discussion, but once you step outside of that context, you're back to having it be a subjective thing again. Having it pulled from the remaster means that in the context of PF2 it's no longer an objective fact, and we can have the much more sane discussions about the subjective judgments, where telling someone that you disagree with them doesn't inherently mean that you're asserting that they're wrong.

"But what if the goblin orphanage is run by well-meaning gnomes with deeply warped religious views who would (by dint of extreme effort) raise the goblins to be paladins with severe internalized racism, each of whom would then run off to burn down a unreconstructed goblin orphanage of their own because they thought it was the right thing to do?"

(For the record, please, please don't answer that.)

...and yes, this is getting badly off-topic and I should stop. I will try to stop. I may even succeed.

This whole thread makes me think of this meme with LO: Tian Xia and Divine Mysteries.

I think that the idea of Arazni siding with Tar-Baphon is pretty ridiculous here. I think "despise and never forgive those who have hurt you" kicks in regardless of how morally admirable you happen to think she is right now, and that if she ever gets a chance to do him real, lasting harm she'll take it in a heartbeat. I also note that Geb isn't one of The 20, so it's unlikely that she's still/again shackled in any real way. I'm pretty sure that Arazni's ascension means that Tar-Baphon is in for at least a few Bad Days.

...and also, the other side of the "is this Good or Evil" thing... is that taking it out of the game rules means that we stop telling ourselves that it's a matter of objective fact. Good and Evil are subjective, and always have been. People often agree on the broad strokes, and I'm glad of that, but there's generally at least some difference of opinion. Most faiths and religious practices will claim that they have a line on what Good and Evil really is, but they all disagree with one another. In their context, you can have that discussion, but once you step outside of that context, you're back to having it be a subjective thing again. Having it pulled from the remaster means that in the context of PF2 it's no longer an objective fact, and we can have the much more sane discussions about the subjective judgments, where telling someone that you disagree with them doesn't inherently mean that you're asserting that they're wrong.

Yeah this can't end well for Tar-Baphon. On the other hand...the poor guy really deserves to have some nice things. He just got blown up by his own Radiant Fire after escaping a thousand-year-entombment.

As for the religious thing, I won't go near that with a ten thousand foot pole. Other than to point out that religion does not have (and really never had) a monopoly on preaching morality, and that in spite of their differences, major religions, cultures, and philosophies have numerous common points of accord. For instance, "stabbing your parents for fun" is frowned upon in pretty much every system of ethics I can think of.

So while morality may not be perfectly objective...there is a surprisingly wide range of issues where it basically is. Certainly, in the vast majority of situations one faces in RPGs where "ethical reasoning" is called for, most major religions align with most major philosophies.

Giant demon burning down your town and eating your family? From Viking warrior culture to medieval chivalry to Hindu conceptions of duty to Islamic jurisprudence all the way to Marxism, all of them tell you that you should try to stop it from smashing the town. They might differ in the "how", but none of them celebrate the demon munching your kids.

But, uh, that's all I'm willing to say on the topic, because TEN THOUSAND FOOT POLE.

This whole thread makes me think of this meme with LO: Tian Xia and Divine Mysteries.

Well... @Tunu40 is providing us with some pretty tasty stuff on the LO: Tian Xia side, too. There's a bit of a slant, sure, but it's not going all one way.

Team, we have confirmation from the remaster (Abadar) that gods can be sanctified to your choice of holy/unholy!

Holy/unholy Arazni is a go!

The Valashmai jungle sounds awesome! Are we getting "kaiju caller" as an archetype? Or at least a background? That sounds so cool!

I'm really interested if the whole 'controlled by octopus children' is gonna be a big deal. I'm not entirely sure I'm into that idea but I also can't help but imagine Washous as ASEAN Innsmouth with less blood purity and more bankrolled

Some last things I’ve noticed from Minata:

The one-eyed tusk creature? Bungisngis (bu-ŋis-ŋis). ‘Ngisi‘ is the word for ‘smirk/grin’ but along the lines of when you’re sniggering/whichever. They come from a story of the bungisngis harassing 3 animal friends for food and then trashing their house when they refuse. In Malayo-Polynesian languages, words are repeated for greater emphasis or meaning. In this case, ngis-ngis is “SUPER smiley”!

Sprites? I think this is reference to anito and diwata. There’s a bit of overlap as the terms were more found in different regions, but during the colonial eras, diwata was usually confused with fairies, though they were also nature spirits and sometimes celestial deities. However, diwata do make me think of “fey-like” creature for the Philippines. The story I heard, Diwata was the name of the supreme goddess (and wife to the Great Spirit Bathala). There is a story about the Pleiades constellation, which I heard as the story of the Paralumans (means ‘muse’, but in this case, it was Star Maidens). They came to earth to bathe and a hunter sees them. He’s advised to steal one of their winged dresses, preventing the paraluman from flying back to the stars. After her sisters leave, he meets her and they fall in love. Years later, their daughter finds the hidden dress and shows it off to her mother who recognized it as her own. She takes the dress back and flies home, reuniting with her sisters. The sky god, to ensure they never get trapped again, locks them into the sky, and that’s how we got the Pleiades Constellation. I think it’s likely that diwata could be an inspiration for Minatan Sprite heritage. In the Singkil dance I mentioned, some folks say it was the diwata that causes the earthquake, some say it was the anito. Some have diwata are akin to wood nymphs/dryads. Other times (such as Maria Makiling) she’s more like a saint/demigoddess (she was restructured from being a mountain goddess into a…nature Virgin Mary during the Spanish Era). Though, diwata are almost always female, and from some research, it seems the male version are called Enkanto, but I’ll have to read more.

Spirits? So, the other term used for spirits are - anito. The way I heard of anito was along the lines of nature spirits (animism) and the wood idols in homes they can possess. Unlike diwata, which could be mischievous, anito I’ve always heard of them being revered. Babaylan are indigenous animistic tribal priests that interact with the anito. My understanding is that it’s pretty diverse, but in some ways - anito can be understood along the lines of kami, being both natural/ancestral spirits. I can see how this can tie into a few classes, but in general, the roleplay and world-building is awesome. My understanding is that pre-Hispanic times, there was a much more vivid connection with the world. There is a (likely inaccurate) story I heard about how anito was used to spread Christianity. The story goes that the conquistadors found anito statues in a hut and we’re going to destroy it, but they noticed one was a child in crib. They recognized it as El Niño and used it to spread Christianity. I doubt it’s that true and is more likely conquistador propaganda, though it’s possible it might’ve been an El Niño statuette left behind when Magellan’s expedition fled the Philippines. It’s also probably a white-washing of overwriting indigenous beliefs, such as how Maria becomes the new classification for Diwatas, likely to avoid angering the conquistador-priests. (Unlike other colonial areas, Philippines was so distant from Spain that the only Spaniard ever met in the community was the priest).

To fit into Pathfinder magic traditions, the legends of Diwata always fit closer with Divine (even Occult) and Anito with Primal, even though they’re still mixed around at times.

Goblins? I’m not really sure. My first thought were the Duwende. I’ve only heard stories from friends (who were scared of them in the Province). They don’t really have a form except for a mound you’re not supposed to step on. And if you think a duwende might be nearby or might’ve been offended, you say “Tabi tabi po” meaning “let me pass by, please”. Tabi meaning “aside”, and repetition for emphasis. Po is used along the lines of “ma’m/sir”, you add it to the end to show respect to those older than you (or just to be formal). Or you can use it to insult your older siblings/cousin. I used it once (thinking I was being polite) and had an Auntie respond “I’m not THAT old!” But ya, I’m not fully sure what Paizo pulled inspiration for the Goblin, so I’m excited to see what that one is!

Overall, super excited at how much they’ve pulled! Can’t wait to see the other areas of Tian Xia, but also, super looking forward to the other setting books!