Starfinder Second Edition is Coming!

Paizo has been very clear about not wanting “basically Drow” going forward.

I'm making the point for Paizo to look at. Why completely getting rid of the "drow". So what about WotC and OGL. We just rename them like I said and there would be effectively nothing they can really say or do about the matter.

You can still have the race just like there are goblins. In a spacefaring era as well as magic, there's an unlikely basis where all of a race that are now existent on multiple worlds and space ships, that even if their main world they are on on the SF main universe were to disappear or destroyed, would be extinct. They may be endangered but like Vulcans in the alternate reality Star Trek films (Abramverse), Vulcans are still around even though less of them.

Likewise, you can still have the race. Just they would be a more rare sight. We may simply call them "Dökkálfar" or dark elves in the core rulebook going forward. They can do a world shattering event as they said without destroying the race entirely and we just relabel them in the book and you'll basically get around the "drow" problem which may be a protected term of WotC.

We also have other planes and dimensions (and other worlds perhaps beyond the Galaxy of the Material Plane) as indicated in PF and SF. This is where a project I am working on would intersect with SF. Potentially factions of various races of PF/SF may exist or live in these other dimensions including elves (collectively referred to as Ljósálfar or light elves, although they may have subspecies or heritages like woodland elves) and the dark elves "Dökkálfar" (drows). Hint Hint Paizo.

Keep enough flexibility for the possibility without writing yourselves in a box that you can't get out of in the core canon story of the setting.

Yeah, but they don't want to do that.

Just watched an interview with Erik Mona and Thurston Hillman that covers a lot of concerns brought up in this thread. Here is the link. Some important highlights:

- Thurston mentioned that the combat status quo in Starfinder is notably different from Pathfinder, specifically because everyone has a gun. The fact that ranged attacks are so common and accessible means that low-level jetpacks and flying ancestries are much less of a balancing concern, so there's no reason to be as stingy with flight as SF's fantasy cousin.

- The team is deeply invested in making sure that SF2 is its own complete, independent game, much like SF1. Compatibility comes from using the same engine and a shared setting history, and is thus a fun option for players rather than a dirty scheme to either demote Starfinder into a PF supplement or force SF players to buy PF2 books. Organized play requires the two games be kept mostly seperate in order to keep GMs and scenario authors sane.

- That said, they are 100% taking compatibility seriously, and actively mixing PF2 material into playtesting in order to make sure the math checks out while feel remains distinct. Thus, while a ysoki in SF2 and a ysoki in PF2 will probably have a lot in common stats-wise, their differing heritages and feats will help make sure they smoothly integrate with their respective games' lore, mechanics, and feel. For example, better technology and the ubiquity of space suits makes being tolerant of sewer or desert environments significantly less necessary, so a SF2 ysoki would need more thematically appropriate perks in their place.

Unrelated to the above, but I don't want to spam the thread, so:

But, in response to your specific bit: no, it's actually really hard to upgrade content from PF2 to PF1. I'm running Kingmaker from the PF2 redo and, even with the PF statblocks book they released (that covers only 3/4 of the statblocks at that), I'm spending toooooooooooooooons of time converting things. I'm basically writing my own nearly-everything-except-the-plot.

Homie. What are you doing. The PF1 Kingmaker exists. Spending a hundred bucks on a system you hate and redoing all the encounters and mechanics by hand--all the while completely ignoring the original adventure path just to grab a handful of extra quests inspired by the Owlcat CRPG--seems really, really inefficient. No wonder you're miserable.

We just rename them like I said and there would be effectively nothing they can really say or do about the matter.

You and I and the Pinkertons have very different definitions of “nothing”.

This is where a project I am working on would intersect with SF. Potentially factions of various races of PF/SF may exist or live in these other dimensions including elves (collectively referred to as Ljósálfar or light elves, although they may have subspecies or heritages like woodland elves) and the dark elves "Dökkálfar" (drows). Hint Hint Paizo.

The writers at Paizo don’t care about your homebrew, pitching it in random threads and acting like this is an imaginary joint project between them and you isn’t going to accomplish anything favorable.

Regarding a lot of people’s back and forth about stamina, it’s presence in PF2 as an alternative rule, and bemoaning the lack of support alternate rules get, I feel like the *ultimate* solution is to have some of the PF2 alternate rules be the core rules in SF2. That way, the baseline experience is different between systems, while still remaining fully cross-compatible.

As a bonus, if each system has different mechanics getting the bulk of the focus, then people who want to play with stamina, or whatever, in PF2 can do so, with the benefit of all the resources of a second system supporting it.

keftiu wrote:

Paizo has been very clear about not wanting “basically Drow” going forward.

I'm making the point for Paizo to look at. Why completely getting rid of the "drow". So what about WotC and OGL. We just rename them like I said and there would be effectively nothing they can really say or do about the matter.

You can still have the race just like there are goblins. In a spacefaring era as well as magic, there's an unlikely basis where all of a race that are now existent on multiple worlds and space ships, that even if their main world they are on on the SF main universe were to disappear or destroyed, would be extinct. They may be endangered but like Vulcans in the alternate reality Star Trek films (Abramverse), Vulcans are still around even though less of them.

Likewise, you can still have the race. Just they would be a more rare sight. We may simply call them "Dökkálfar" or dark elves in the core rulebook going forward. They can do a world shattering event as they said without destroying the race entirely and we just relabel them in the book and you'll basically get around the "drow" problem which may be a protected term of WotC.

We also have other planes and dimensions (and other worlds perhaps beyond the Galaxy of the Material Plane) as indicated in PF and SF. This is where a project I am working on would intersect with SF. Potentially factions of various races of PF/SF may exist or live in these other dimensions including elves (collectively referred to as Ljósálfar or light elves, although they may have subspecies or heritages like woodland elves) and the dark elves "Dökkálfar" (drows). Hint Hint Paizo.

Keep enough flexibility for the possibility without writing yourselves in a box that you can't get out of in the core canon story of the setting.

An option may be, the standard "drows" or dark elves we may call them the Golarion-Apostae Dark Elves. Golarion as noted in Pathfinder is not the original homeworld of Elves (and dark elves alike). When Golarion, well, sometime before the Gap, its apparent people of the varied races had started habitating other worlds as in the Pact Worlds for example.

Is the Sarfinder revision still coming out in October/?

Yes

Yeah, but they don't want to do that.

Maybe but they could decide to craft it enough so there is flexibility. I'm already going to work on an implementation of dark elves (maybe a little different or variant species of dark elves with slight differences in look (but fit closer to the public domain canon of icelandic/norse mythology yet are in the human height scale) but related to the very dark elves of Apostae which may have always existed on other worlds than just Golarion/Apostae. So maybe they aren't and won't be completely gone and as a third-party publisher, I just might make that work.

So we may have our dark elves after all regardless if they destroy Apostae.

TOZ wrote:

Yeah, but they don't want to do that.

Maybe but they could decide to...

No amount of hopeful ideas is going to make someone do something they just don't want to do.

By all means, make your own content on it. But Paizo just isn't interested in pursuing that.

Doodledibob wrote:

I really hope this doesn't mean that the Drow on Apostae will be erased like they were in 2e.

I still take issue with the characterization that they are little more than sexist & racist tropes that needed to be completely removed from the game.

That is not why drow were removed. It was because they are a WotC IP whose use in Pathfinder was reliant on the ogl.

I was openly critical of how Paizo handled the actual process of their removal, and I stand by what I said back then, but keeping them around 100% unchanged with the serial numbers still on was never an option, and none of Paizo's decisions there were motivated by wokeness.

Not saying Drow didn't have bad things about them that could and should have been further altered. But rather than try to salvage anything from them, Paizo just turned around and completely erased them from existence. Nevermind that the whole idea of "dark elves" is something that exists in other media - whether we are talking about the Dumner, the Drukhari, or Kaldorei, there have been plenty of high-profile non-D&D dark elves over the past 20 years.

Rather than renaming the Drow to something else, Paizo just threw them out. Other than concerns about the OGL, the only reason Paizo gave was the excuses about there being problems with their lore. Which you can say about pretty much everything in Pathfinder at one point or another - that doesn't mean those things should be thrown out completely. Hell, take the current PF2E Beginner Box adventure, where you are tasked with wiping out the 'primitive/savage' Kobolds who are causing problems for the human settlement after the humans drove them out and away. That's some pretty awful colonialist framing right there, but that doesn't mean we should wipe Kobolds, humans, or Otari off the map - it means we should rework these things to better show the nuance of the situation.

In the same vein, the lore regarding Drow could have been reworked, possibly leveraging their presence on Apostae in Starfinder to expand their lore in Pathfinder.

As it stands, I have little faith in Paizo's commitment to existing lore and the previous stories that were told in the setting.

As it stands, I have little faith in Paizo's commitment to existing lore and the previous stories that were told in the setting.

I'm sorry you feel that way.

As someone who has been with Starfinder from the beginning, I assure you that we're committed to our lore and setting. We're not deleting drow, we're making legally necessary changes that will better improve the setting. Also, spoiler, Apostae isn't going anywhere. We have plans.

Dragon Nexus Games wrote:

TOZ wrote:

Yeah, but they don't want to do that.

Maybe but they could decide to...

No amount of hopeful ideas is going to make someone do something they just don't want to do.

By all means, make your own content on it. But Paizo just isn't interested in pursuing that.

They can certainly use a few sentences or such way of writing to hint there may be survivors and those that may exists on other worlds. Like, even something simple like "The dark elves are extinct, or are they." Then leave it there. Just leave enough for third-parties. Without that "or are they" literary device to put into question whether or not they are extinct, it becomes an absolute. Third-party content publishers will generally not want to jive or contradict Paizo canon. I know Paizo is reading the forum. I'm sure they are.

I'm placing it here for them to look at. How hard is it really to make 1 hour (or less) of text edits of the specific pages where drows are relabeled dark elves (Apostae) and relabel the language as "Dökk álfur". Ultimately, removing any use of the term "drow" and replace with dark elf/elves. We know.... dark elf basically equals drow. Dark Elf is just English translation for Dökkálfar (Norse/Icelandic). Here we can just call them dark elves and a very particular heritage (which I'll work on introducing under ORC), as Dökkálfar with a even darker skin tone and maybe a few things I may come up with.

Point: Mainly, I just need them to leave enough opening literary-wise so that it is not going to be an issue with setting canon. It doesn't really change their setting ideas, either... if they just craftfully wordsmith it so there can be third-party content on it that won't be breaking the setting's canon either. In other words, all they need to do is leave a small opening in their wordage.

TOZ wrote:

Dragon Nexus Games wrote:

TOZ wrote:

Yeah, but they don't want to do that.

Maybe but they could decide to...

No amount of hopeful ideas is going to make someone do something they just don't want to do.

By all means, make your own content on it. But Paizo just isn't interested in pursuing that.

They can certainly use a few sentences or such way of writing to...

But they won't.

My disagreement is not that it isn't possible, it's that they will not choose to do so. All your arguing otherwise is a waste of breath.

Doodledibob wrote:

As it stands, I have little faith in Paizo's commitment to existing lore and the previous stories that were told in the setting.

I'm sorry you feel that way.

As someone who has been with Starfinder from the beginning, I assure you that we're committed to our lore and setting. We're not deleting drow, we're making legally necessary changes that will better improve the setting. Also, spoiler, Apostae isn't going anywhere. We have plans.

I'll be happy to talk with you about it and sign an NDA if need be from a professional standpoint of responsible use of confidentiality as this is worked out. I'll be able to talk in more detail about my project as well.

ThePuppyTurtle wrote:

That said, if you can find where someone made a post like that, please share it with me, as that sounds hilarious.

Snipped.

Nevermind, I see this isn't required anymore.

They can certainly use a few sentences or such way of writing to hint there may be survivors and those that may exists on other worlds. Like, even something simple like "The dark elves are extinct, or are they." Then leave it there. Just leave enough for third-parties. Without that "or are they" literary device to put into question whether or not they are extinct, it becomes an absolute. Third-party content publishers will generally not want to jive or contradict Paizo canon. I know Paizo is reading the forum. I'm sure they are.

I'm placing it here for them to look at. How hard is it really to make 1 hour (or less) of text edits of the specific pages where drows are relabeled dark elves (Apostae) and relabel the language as "Dökk álfur". Ultimately, removing any use of the term "drow" and replace with dark elf/elves. We know.... dark elf basically equals drow. Dark Elf is just English translation for Dökkálfar (Norse/Icelandic). Here we can just call them dark elves and a very particular heritage (which I'll work on introducing under ORC), as Dökkálfar with a even darker skin tone and maybe a few things I may come up with.

Point: Mainly, I just need them to leave enough opening literary-wise so that it is not going to be an issue with setting canon. It doesn't really change their setting ideas, either... if they just craftfully wordsmith it so there can be third-party content on it that won't be breaking the setting's canon either. In other words, all they need to do is leave a small opening in their wordage.

Are you a lawyer? And is this legal advice you're offering to Paizo, that you're willing to back up with fully researched documentation and argument in court?

Doodledibob wrote:

As it stands, I have little faith in Paizo's commitment to existing lore and the previous stories that were told in the setting.

I'm sorry you feel that way.

As someone who has been with Starfinder from the beginning, I assure you that we're committed to our lore and setting. We're not deleting drow, we're making legally necessary changes that will better improve the setting. Also, spoiler, Apostae isn't going anywhere. We have plans.

With: We're not deleting drow, we're making legally necessary changes that will better improve the setting.

That makes me feel better. As I develop plans with the "drows" and say... the Dökkálfar variant in my project... we'll have the opening in canon for this.

Regarding a lot of people’s back and forth about stamina, it’s presence in PF2 as an alternative rule, and bemoaning the lack of support alternate rules get, I feel like the *ultimate* solution is to have some of the PF2 alternate rules be the core rules in SF2. That way, the baseline experience is different between systems, while still remaining fully cross-compatible.

Yeah, I could definitely see Starfinder fans being happier with Stamina and Ancestry Paragon being baseline rules for SF2.

Are you a lawyer? And is this legal advice you're offering to Paizo, that you're willing to back up with fully researched documentation and argument in court?

13th century mythology is public domain like the Bible is. You don't need to be a lawyer. The description of drows used by TSR / WotC is public domain. D&D's drow is essentially, the Dökkálfar as written and described in Prose Edda.

Something to start with: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D%C3%B6kk%C3%A1lfar_and_Lj%C3%B3s%C3%A1lfar

Only the actual pictorial illustrations used by TSR-->WotC and the word "Drow", individual characters, and unique story canon used by TSR/WotC is protected intellectual property and their written publications as body of creative work as a whole excluding anything already public domain or otherwise not protectable under the intellectual property rights laws.

Unlike some, I actually have read the U.S. copyright laws and know about copyrights. It is not my first rodeo with copyrights.

PS: I'm not suggesting as legal advice. They have their lawyers and you don't need to be a lawyer to know creative works, that would be intellectual property under modern laws, from the 13th century is definitely public domain. Intellectual property rights laws do not protect works that old. Why do you think so much work involving Thor and Odin and core mythology can and is so easily used by all sorts of authors. They don't have to pay Disney for having a Go character named Thor. Only if you use Marvel's or Disney's depiction of Thor and their unique story elements.

Doodledibob wrote:

As it stands, I have little faith in Paizo's commitment to existing lore and the previous stories that were told in the setting.

I'm sorry you feel that way.

As someone who has been with Starfinder from the beginning, I assure you that we're committed to our lore and setting. We're not deleting drow, we're making legally necessary changes that will better improve the setting. Also, spoiler, Apostae isn't going anywhere. We have plans.

That Post alone was so so helpful to me. Thank you a lot for that. Because deleting old lore, here Apostae, is one of my big worries.

That, combined with what we heard/read about knowing about the different baseline. Only the spaceship-combat is now left to worry for the moment. I am looking more positively in the future now.

So again: Thank you.

Richard Lowe wrote:

Are you a lawyer? And is this legal advice you're offering to Paizo, that you're willing to back up with fully researched documentation and argument in court?

13th century mythology is public domain like the Bible is. You don't need to be a lawyer. The description of drows used by TSR / WotC is public domain. D&D's drow is essentially, the Dökkálfar as written and described in Prose Edda.

Something to start with: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D%C3%B6kk%C3%A1lfar_and_Lj%C3%B3s%C3%A1lfar

Only the actual pictorial illustrations used by TSR-->WotC and the word "Drow", individual characters, and unique story canon used by TSR/WotC is protected intellectual property and their written publications as body of creative work as a whole excluding anything already public domain or otherwise not protectable under the intellectual property rights laws.

Unlike some, I actually have read the U.S. copyright laws and know about copyrights. It is not my first rodeo with copyrights.

PS: I'm not suggesting as legal advice. They have their lawyers and you don't need to be a lawyer to know creative works, that would be intellectual property under modern laws, from the 13th century is definitely public domain. Intellectual property rights laws do not protect works that old. Why do you think so much work involving Thor and Odin and core mythology can and is so easily used by all sorts of authors. They don't have to pay Disney for having a Go character named Thor. Only if you use Marvel's or Disney's depiction of Thor and their unique story elements.

The only snafu in intellectual property laws for say "Dökkálfar" would be a trademark for a company name/logo or a product brand logo but only then only protects the use as a trademark logo of a company or product brand but it doesn't cover the same rights being protected as is covered by patents or copyrights. Each serve a different purpose and different scope of protection.

Trademarks protects company logos, corporate branding, and product/service branding / logos for a particular product or product line or services. Trademarks for Services more commonly called service marks. There is limits in the protection and scope of the protections for each of the three general categorical types of IP laws.

I think it needs to be emphasized: You're not going to achieve any substantial amount of networking and professional work just by posting on the Paizo forums. Contacting the Marketing team via their email on the Contact page would be a much better start. And doing so with previously published third party products for Pathfinder and Starfinder would do wonders more in helping you get your foot in the door than sending a reply to Thurston offering to sign an vague NDA.

I think it needs to be emphasized: You're not going to achieve any substantial amount of networking and professional work just by posting on the Paizo forums. Contacting the Marketing team via their email on the Contact page would be a much better start. And doing so with previously published third party products for Pathfinder and Starfinder would do wonders more in helping you get your foot in the door than sending a reply to Thurston offering to sign an vague NDA.

Maybe you can see if you can do a few scenarios for Starfinder Society. I know someone who wrote a few PFS scenarios and has a credit in the new Highhelm book.

And doing so with previously published third party products for Pathfinder and Starfinder would do wonders more in helping you get your foot in the door than sending a reply to Thurston offering to sign an vague NDA.

Also, if I can offer some unsolicited advice: Asking for an NDA like that screams "I'm an amateur". It does not present the level of professionalism you are looking for.

Novice writers are forever worried about people "stealing their ideas". Experienced writers know that ideas literally aren't worth the paper they are written on; only execution has value. No one is going to steal your ideas, no one wants to steal your ideas, and publicly worrying about your ideas being stolen really just marks you as inexperienced.

I think it needs to be emphasized: You're not going to achieve any substantial amount of networking and professional work just by posting on the Paizo forums. Contacting the Marketing team via their email on the Contact page would be a much better start. And doing so with previously published third party products for Pathfinder and Starfinder would do wonders more in helping you get your foot in the door than sending a reply to Thurston offering to sign an vague NDA.

At least you didn't suggest customer representatives. Of course, I rather be talking to actual decision makers than going around in circles between people whose job is to be a communication barrier.

Someone with a title like Managing Creative Director sounds like someone with an important leadership role.

PS: Companies are not going to want to discuss things that they have not registered for copyrights protection with someone without an NDA at the very least like all unpublished WIP stuff.

Since Thurston has indicated drows aren't going away, the NDA would be moot.

Ezekieru wrote:

And doing so with previously published third party products for Pathfinder and Starfinder would do wonders more in helping you get your foot in the door than sending a reply to Thurston offering to sign an vague NDA.

Also, if I can offer some unsolicited advice: Asking for an NDA like that screams "I'm an amateur". It does not present the level of professionalism you are looking for.

Novice writers are forever worried about people "stealing their ideas". Experienced writers know that ideas literally aren't worth the paper they are written on; only execution has value. No one is going to steal your ideas, no one wants to steal your ideas, and publicly worrying about your ideas being stolen really just marks you as inexperienced.

People steal ideas every day, literally. If they take your unpublished work and register it before you, your screwed even if you may have wrote it unless you are deep pocket person or corporation. It happens every single day. You'll have to spend well over $10,000, easily over $100,000 in lawyers and court fees with just a maybe you might win but could still lose.

Yes, I have a number of stuff on this project I'm working on that is not published yet and not registered because its not finished and complete. I'm sure they have reasonable concern for keeping wraps stuff that is WIP.

Technically, I got the info I needed from Thurston. The exact details we don't need to go into anyway. The drows aren't being removed. Maybe renamed if necessary but not going away. So if they aren't extinct then it won't be an issue for what I am working on in the details. Going over canon details from the PF and SF core books and all... so things will playout just fine.

Dragon Nexus Games wrote:

MaxAstro wrote:

Ezekieru wrote:

And doing so with previously published third party products for Pathfinder and Starfinder would do wonders more in helping you get your foot in the door than sending a reply to Thurston offering to sign an vague NDA.

Also, if I can offer some unsolicited advice: Asking for an NDA like that screams "I'm an amateur". It does not present the level of professionalism you are looking for.

Novice writers are forever worried about people "stealing their ideas". Experienced writers know that ideas literally aren't worth the paper they are written on; only execution has value. No one is going to steal your ideas, no one wants to steal your ideas, and publicly worrying about your ideas being stolen really just marks you as inexperienced.

People steal ideas every day, literally. If they take your unpublished work and register it before you, your screwed even if you may have wrote it unless you are deep pocket person or corporation. It happens every single day. You'll have to spend well over $10,000, easily over $100,000 in lawyers and court fees with just a maybe you might win but could still lose.

Yes, I have a number of stuff on this project I'm working on that is not published yet and not registered because its not finished and complete. I'm sure they have reasonable concern for keeping wraps stuff that is WIP.

In addition, there is this thing called private messaging. Is there some reason that is not being used at all? Is it broken?

If ideas had absolutely no value, there would not be copyright laws. Yes, execution matters but someone can steal your WIP near completion, and register it before you and they market it. They get the money, the credit, and IP rights and you don't. Rich people and businesses without any creative bone in their body has gotten away with that for over a century and still do.

It's not just "novice writers". It's also experienced writers who don't have a lot...

I imagine that many of the people you might wish to contact are at GenCon and have limited time to be online. Perhaps try to reach out to people privately after the convention and see if you can establish a working professional relationship. (Writing something for Organized Play has helped some people move on to bigger projects.) It takes time to establish a relationship, professional or otherwise.

Technically, I got the info I needed from Thurston. The exact details we don't need to go into anyway. The drows aren't being removed. Maybe renamed if necessary but not going away. So if they aren't extinct then it won't be an issue for what I am working on in the details. Going over canon details from the PF and SF core books and all... so things will playout just fine.

I figured that they were doing something with Apostae. Making the inhabitants more corporate will separate them further from someone else's intellectual property.

I look forward to the changes. Perhaps there will be more flexibility for companies with future Starfinder products. (Hmm, would having a disreputable mercenary force that is an anagram of Pinkerton be protected parody?)

Well, I tried.

Dαedαlus wrote:

Regarding a lot of people’s back and forth about stamina, it’s presence in PF2 as an alternative rule, and bemoaning the lack of support alternate rules get, I feel like the *ultimate* solution is to have some of the PF2 alternate rules be the core rules in SF2. That way, the baseline experience is different between systems, while still remaining fully cross-compatible.

Yeah, I could definitely see Starfinder fans being happier with Stamina and Ancestry Paragon being baseline rules for SF2.

I bet we'll be seeing options for that during the actual playtest, for Stamina at least.

Ancestry Paragon on the other hand, probably not. What I've experienced and seen is that past the second 1st-level feat and the 3rd-level feat, people quickly start picking ancestry feats mostly because they have a slot to fill. And it gets worse the further you go up in level, as you have already exhausted the most exciting options. Between that and the added complexity, I doubt this will ever become a baseline rule. A new variant rule that just adds a second 1st-level feat and maybe the 3rd-level one, though? I could definitely see that.

13th century mythology is public domain like the Bible is. You don't need to be a lawyer. The description of drows used by TSR / WotC is public domain. D&D's drow is essentially, the Dökkálfar as written and described in Prose Edda.

So I'm confused, do you think Paizos lawyers are just bad at their job then? Because you, not a lawyer, are saying with absolute certainty the opposite of what Paizo has been advised. Generally, I feel that most people, when seeking actual, real legal advice are probably advised to listen to actual, real lawyers and not people whose companies have gone into administrative dissolution just to throw out a random entirely unrelated example, maybe that's just me though.

Dragon Nexus Games wrote:

13th century mythology is public domain like the Bible is. You don't need to be a lawyer. The description of drows used by TSR / WotC is public domain. D&D's drow is essentially, the Dökkálfar as written and described in Prose Edda.

So I'm confused, do you think Paizos lawyers are just bad at their job then? Because you, not a lawyer, are saying with absolute certainty the opposite of what Paizo has been advised. Generally, I feel that most people, when seeking actual, real legal advice are probably advised to listen to actual, real lawyers and not people whose companies have gone into administrative dissolution just to throw out a random entirely unrelated example, maybe that's just me though.

Having read the Eddas, I don't recall the Dökkálfar as being clad in leather, ruled by matriarchs, devoted to evil powers, and being utterly immoral and evil. (The physical appearance is something that you cannot copyright, as have seen with Dark Elves in other companies. Anything resembling what WoTC did.... that is another story.) WoTC took time to craft something off of a concept in the Eddas and Paizo will create something different with the inhabitants of Apostae. Perhaps one day, some will make their way to Golarion in another era.

However, keeping anything far from WotC's intellectual property is a good idea. Even if Paizo or another company did something that WotC could claim as a copyright infringement, the threat of a lawsuit is nothing anyone wants. (Indeed, some companies can file suits to bankrupt their competitors who have fewer resources. As the inhabitants of Apostae might say, money is power and might makes right.)

I think Pathfinder Remaster should look to incorporating the Stamina / HP Resolve system of Starfinder as a key component. SF2E should keep it as well.

I think it's the better of the two systems, and should be adopted going forward. The uses of resolve in Starfinder represent wonderful player agency, and also should see adoption. The myriad options for Downtime should also be included in SF2E, and perhaps also be included in GM Core.

As an aside, fighters need an overhaul, big-time. They are an unbalanced class, critting at least 13% more often than any other class. Drop their advantage to 5%, give maneuver bonuses. They have hero points on their side as opposed to casters imposing saves. Attack of opportunity should do level, or level and strength dmg, or base weapon die, but not full. Not enough focus on being good at combat maneuvers. Add reposition. Do strength damage on successful maneuvers. Those changes bring the fighter in balance with other classes.

I hope SF2E sees casters on par with martials, including many more one-action spell options.

Thanks for bringing great games forth, Paizo.

Worrying about what happened to Shelyn . . . sounds like her long track record of incorruptibility finally came to a grisly end.

re the dark elves. Remember you don't need your IP to be far enough to WIN in court you need it to be far enough to not wind up in an expensive lawsuit in the first place. Those are two different standards.

Said it before, and I'll say it again: they should have Apostae be inhabited by either (in order of my personal preference) lashunta-based or elf-based nephilim (the new term for what were formerly tieflings and aasimar, but I specifically mean tieflings here). Keep the ties to Castrovel; give them a reason (i.e. fiends had been working them over for generations) to be culturally a bunch of manipulative finks.

breithauptclan wrote:

Dαedαlus wrote:

Regarding a lot of people’s back and forth about stamina, it’s presence in PF2 as an alternative rule, and bemoaning the lack of support alternate rules get, I feel like the *ultimate* solution is to have some of the PF2 alternate rules be the core rules in SF2. That way, the baseline experience is different between systems, while still remaining fully cross-compatible.

Yeah, I could definitely see Starfinder fans being happier with Stamina and Ancestry Paragon being baseline rules for SF2.

I bet we'll be seeing options for that during the actual playtest, for Stamina at least.

Ancestry Paragon on the other hand, probably not. What I've experienced and seen is that past the second 1st-level feat and the 3rd-level feat, people quickly start picking ancestry feats mostly because they have a slot to fill. And it gets worse the further you go up in level, as you have already exhausted the most exciting options. Between that and the added complexity, I doubt this will ever become a baseline rule. A new variant rule that just adds a second 1st-level feat and maybe the 3rd-level one, though? I could definitely see that.

Stamina and Ancestry Paragon isn't even in Players Core Variant Rules anymore. So really it's very unlikely that we can have it in SF2.

Well, I tried.

Try again next time you see him chatting up passersby about it on the subway.

Karmagator wrote:

breithauptclan wrote:

Dαedαlus wrote:

Regarding a lot of people’s back and forth about stamina, it’s presence in PF2 as an alternative rule, and bemoaning the lack of support alternate rules get, I feel like the *ultimate* solution is to have some of the PF2 alternate rules be the core rules in SF2. That way, the baseline experience is different between systems, while still remaining fully cross-compatible.

Yeah, I could definitely see Starfinder fans being happier with Stamina and Ancestry Paragon being baseline rules for SF2.

I bet we'll be seeing options for that during the actual playtest, for Stamina at least.

Ancestry Paragon on the other hand, probably not. What I've experienced and seen is that past the second 1st-level feat and the 3rd-level feat, people quickly start picking ancestry feats mostly because they have a slot to fill. And it gets worse the further you go up in level, as you have already exhausted the most exciting options. Between that and the added complexity, I doubt this will ever become a baseline rule. A new variant rule that just adds a second 1st-level feat and maybe the 3rd-level one, though? I could definitely see that.

Stamina and Ancestry Paragon isn't even in Players Core Variant Rules anymore. So really it's very unlikely that we can have it in SF2.

There's always a chance it ends up in the af2e rulebook!

Richard Lowe wrote:

Dragon Nexus Games wrote:

13th century mythology is public domain like the Bible is. You don't need to be a lawyer. The description of drows used by TSR / WotC is public domain. D&D's drow is essentially, the Dökkálfar as written and described in Prose Edda.

So I'm confused, do you think Paizos lawyers are just bad at their job then? Because you, not a lawyer, are saying with absolute certainty the oppositeof what Paizo has been advised. Generally, I feel that most people, when seeking actual, real legal advice are probably advised to listen to actual, real lawyers and not people whose companies have gone into administrative dissolution just to throw out a random entirely unrelated example, maybe that's just me though.

Having read the Eddas, I don't recall the Dökkálfar as being clad in leather, ruled by matriarchs, devoted to evil powers, and being utterly immoral and evil. (The physical appearance is something that you cannot copyright, as have seen with Dark Elves in other companies. Anything resembling what WoTC did.... that is another story.) WoTC took time to craft something off of a concept in the Eddas and Paizo will create something different with the inhabitants of Apostae. Perhaps one day, some will make their way to Golarion in another era.

However, keeping anything far from WotC's intellectual property is a good idea. Even if Paizo or another company did something that WotC could claim as a copyright infringement, the threat of a lawsuit is nothing anyone wants. (Indeed, some companies can file suits to bankrupt their competitors who have fewer resources. As the inhabitants of Apostae might say, money is power and might makes right.)

Even copyright laws don't protect general themes like leather armor. In a world where armor would be worn, you'd expect them to wear armor. Matriarch lead society wouldn't necessarily by copyright protect. It is more of the nuance details. If there is enough differences to distinguish one from another. At one time, you might need 50% difference. Today, with as much volume of copyrights, you only need maybe 10-20% overall differences. It isn't mathematical. You just have to cite the differences enough to distinguish between WotC's drows and Paizo. Not talking about looks. I'm talking about Canon and story base with Golarion and then Apostae. You put the story together, you got something different behind and about the drows or dark elves of Pathfinder/Starfinder than D&D.

And again, your opinion is not an undefestable guarantee in light of the price of litigation. And the Pinkertons.

Stamina and Ancestry Paragon isn't even in Players Core Variant Rules anymore. So really it's very unlikely that we can have it in SF2.

That is disappointing. Were I to start another Pathfinder game, Stamina would definitely be in it, because the way Treat Wounds works is really boring. Well, maybe not if I get some other rules into place to make treating wounds less of a chore.

I'm thinking something like an exploration activity:

Treat Wounds
Exploration, Healing, Manipulate
Requirements: You are trained in Medicine and have a healer's toolkit.
You spend 10 minutes treating the wounds of a living creature. That creature heals 10 hp and removes the Wounded condition. Depending on your Medicine proficiency you may heal more: 20 hp at Expert, 40 hp at Master, and 60 hp at Legendary.

In other words: remove the roll and the 1-hour cooldown (also removing the need for the Continual Recovery feat). The roll just slows the game down and makes the whole thing super boring, and Continual Recovery is just a feat tax.

Dragon Nexus Games wrote:

13th century mythology is public domain like the Bible is. You don't need to be a lawyer. The description of drows used by TSR / WotC is public domain. D&D's drow is essentially, the Dökkálfar as written and described in Prose Edda.

So I'm confused, do you think Paizos lawyers are just bad at their job then? Because you, not a lawyer, are saying with absolute certainty the opposite of what Paizo has been advised. Generally, I feel that most people, when seeking actual, real legal advice are probably advised to listen to actual, real lawyers and not people whose companies have gone into administrative dissolution just to throw out a random entirely unrelated example, maybe that's just me though.

Never said or imply that. Are you an attorney? Are you one of Paizo's attorney. If not: What do you know what they advised them? Have you actually read their written advice? As it would be part of professional standard of care to put such advice in written form.

Little side bar note: There is no such thing as absolute original work. You can cite thousands of sources of inspiration and essentially Remix from the various sources of inspiration to make a copyrightable work.

If you are an attorney, it doesn't bode well that you are arguing this, still... considering Thurston Hillman already said that drows aren't going away. You know, the person in the leadership team of the Starfinder projects at Paizo.

I'm not saying that I am smarter than all attorneys but I can probably name a few that I am more likely competent at practice of law and the understanding of laws than they are just on the basis of reading comprehension skill which is an important foundational skill for the practice of law. However, we really don't need to comment about those particular lawyers.

Ultimately the reason you can't file serial numbers off Pathfinder drow and keep them is that if you did (say, by turning them into tiny fey-like beings), the playerbase would reject that, as they expect a compound of traits that represents a matriarchal society big boobs spiders demons evil underground occasional good-aligned rebel dark elves.

Starfinder has this advantage that WotC never did space drow, and the existing SF lore is already heavily detached from the D&D expression of drow, so they'll likely stay around with minor tweaks.

Sure, there will be a Joey who will cry why can we have drow that I want in the science fantasy game we can't have them in a fantasy game, but law is fun like that.

Dragon Nexus Games wrote:

Generally, I feel that most people, when seeking actual, real legal advice are probably advised to listen to actual, real lawyers and not people whose companies have gone into administrative dissolution just to throw out a random entirely unrelated example, maybe that's just me though.

Since you bothered to look up things in a state database, you do know there is this little thing called "Reinstatement" fees. Know how to deal with that. It really doesn't stop me from operating. However, since I'm busy with doing literally everything from the creative writing and content for TTRPG and the programming for a Computerized RPG game based on it all, the artwork, 2d work and 3d models, and music/audio and basically the workload of a dozens of fulltime employees and pay for every single cent without even one peso from any venture capitalist as I am not using any of those leeches. Maybe, I'll worry about the little state reinstatement/renewal stuff when I get to it.

Ezekieru wrote:

I think it needs to be emphasized: You're not going to achieve any substantial amount of networking and professional work just by posting on the Paizo forums. Contacting the Marketing team via their email on the Contact page would be a much better start. And doing so with previously published third party products for Pathfinder and Starfinder would do wonders more in helping you get your foot in the door than sending a reply to Thurston offering to sign an vague NDA.

At least you didn't suggest customer representatives. Of course, I rather be talking to actual decision makers than going around in circles between people whose job is to be a communication barrier.

Someone with a title like Managing Creative Director sounds like someone with an important leadership role.

PS: Companies are not going to want to discuss things that they have not registered for copyrights protection with someone without an NDA at the very least like all unpublished WIP stuff.

Since Thurston has indicated drows aren't going away, the NDA would be moot.

The "actual decision makers" still have to go through their Hiring Managers in order to get the paperwork ready to work with freelancers or with in-company developers. Or with the Marketing Team in order to set up work contracts with their official partners. Trying to circumvent that because you don't like those departments' people doesn't show professionalism.

Thuston's job is to manage his team on the Starfinder side, and help creatively direct the game. It's not to deal with random people soliciting job opportunities, especially on the forums meant primarily for fan engagement. That's why Thurston would be talking with their HR department or the Marketing department to hire or work with people.

So, again, it might help your chances if you stopped and simply go through the proper channels. Look for hiring opportunities by Paizo through their regular communication channels. Contact the Marketing Team to see if you can establish a professional connection. Publish third-party products on Pathfinder/Starfinder Infinite. Anything other than wasting your time doing... this, I guess?

Maybe, I'll worry about the little state reinstatement/renewal stuff when I get to it.

Wait, your company doesn’t even legally exist due to a major screwup on your “company’s” side of things, so all of the above posts trying to solicit stuff fall under misrepresentation don’t they?

Since you bothered to look up things in a state database, you do know there is this little thing called "Reinstatement" fees. Know how to deal with that. It really doesn't stop me from operating. However, since I'm busy with doing literally everything from the creative writing and content for TTRPG and the programming for a Computerized RPG game based on it all, the artwork, 2d work and 3d models, and music/audio and basically the workload of a dozens of fulltime employees and pay for every single cent without even one peso from any venture capitalist as I am not using any of those leeches. Maybe, I'll worry about the little state reinstatement/renewal stuff when I get to it.

Wait, wait, wait… you’re doing 96 hours of work a day?! My good sir I whole heartedly withdraw any concerns or complaints, you are a Hercules, you are an icon of the modern working man! I’m frankly shocked you can find so much time to post on the forums, but no doubt this is just another example of your excellent time management that allows you to do 12 full time jobs in a single day, I applaud you sir!