How to update PFS characters to Year 2 format

Jared Thaler wrote:

Angel Hunter D wrote:

As for the ruling itself, holy heck did I not see how expensive it is before. Those prices are prohibitive, and I believe really devalue future purchases for spells.

???

1st level spell: 1/7 of a level 1 scenario
3rd level spell: 1/6 of a level 3 scenario
5th level spell: 1/6 of a level 5 scenario.

Those prices are super cheap.

I've seen warpriests with Wisdom of 12. 10 is even possible.

Also, why are you getting to roll twice and take the better? If you're thinking Hero Points its not at all clear they apply to this activity

It's an exploration activity, why wouldn't they apply?

Jared Thaler wrote:

Angel Hunter D wrote:

As for the ruling itself, holy heck did I not see how expensive it is before. Those prices are prohibitive, and I believe really devalue future purchases for spells.

???

1st level spell: 1/7 of a level 1 scenario
3rd level spell: 1/6 of a level 3 scenario
5th level spell: 1/6 of a level 5 scenario.

Those prices are super cheap.

Let me do this differently for you since, shockingly, you chose to spin this as a minor issue. For as aggressively you're defending this, I'm honestly starting to wonder if you're the "some people" who brought this to Tonya in the first place.

Nope. I am not. I didn't know anything about this till I saw the blog.

We're discussing the nonsensical ruling, not common English phrases.

I'm discussing your unwarranted personal insult of the Paizo developers. If that makes me a pedant then I'll happily accept that label.

Because people keep missing it...

Learning Spells - Some members of the community raised questions about how their cleric and druid characters could use the new spells from the Advanced Player’s Guide. We’re happy to provide a solution! Any prepared spellcaster can use the Learn a Spell activity to learn any common spells they have access to from tutors at the Grand Lodge. This adds no additional material cost beyond the standard cost for the Learn a Spell activity.

The BOLD is the only actual ruling made...

Because people keep missing it...

This blog wrote:

Learning Spells - Some members of the community raised questions about how their cleric and druid characters could use the new spells from the Advanced Player’s Guide. We’re happy to provide a solution! Any prepared spellcaster can use the Learn a Spell activity to learn any common spells they have access to from tutors at the Grand Lodge. This adds no additional material cost beyond the standard cost for the Learn a Spell activity.

The BOLD is the only actual ruling made...

You seem to be missing the fact that the change is that clerics and druids now HAVE to use the Learn a Spell activity AND spend money to access some Common spells. Which is a significant change from what a great many people thought the rules said and that, inarguably, the rules as written could easily be interpreted as saying

Stephen Meadows Jr wrote:

Because people keep missing it...

This blog wrote:

Learning Spells - Some members of the community raised questions about how their cleric and druid characters could use the new spells from the Advanced Player’s Guide. We’re happy to provide a solution! Any prepared spellcaster can use the Learn a Spell activity to learn any common spells they have access to from tutors at the Grand Lodge. This adds no additional material cost beyond the standard cost for the Learn a Spell activity.

The BOLD is the only actual ruling made...

You seem to be missing the fact that the change is that clerics and druids now HAVE to use the Learn a Spell activity AND spend money to access some Common spells. Which is a significant change from what a great many people thought the rules said and that, inarguably, the rules as written could easily be interpreted as saying

They are saying that the ruling does not explicitly change the rule, and without an explicit statement to the contrary we can simply carry on as before, following the CRB and the text "from other divine/primal spells to which you gain access".

pauljathome wrote:

Stephen Meadows Jr wrote:

Because people keep missing it...

This blog wrote:

Learning Spells - Some members of the community raised questions about how their cleric and druid characters could use the new spells from the Advanced Player’s Guide. We’re happy to provide a solution! Any prepared spellcaster can use the Learn a Spell activity to learn any common spells they have access to from tutors at the Grand Lodge. This adds no additional material cost beyond the standard cost for the Learn a Spell activity.

The BOLD is the only actual ruling made...

You seem to be missing the fact that the change is that clerics and druids now HAVE to use the Learn a Spell activity AND spend money to access some Common spells. Which is a significant change from what a great many people thought the rules said and that, inarguably, the rules as written could easily be interpreted as saying

They are saying that the ruling does not explicitly change the rule, and without an explicit statement to the contrary we can simply carry on as before, following the CRB and the text "from other divine/primal spells to which you gain access".

Exactly. The issue all of us have, however, is the justification for the bolded section, which is the two sentences right before. Stephen is ultimately correct, nowhere in this blog does it say that clerics and druids must use Learn a Spell to get non-Core spells, however, the implication that they do was implied to be a driving force in making the bolded ruling.

As we look into the subject of spell choices, the overall issue is the parallel between PF1 and PF2 as to how Clerics and like casters (druid) would prepare spells and their choices of spell selection worked. It was assumed that the common spells for future books would be accessible just as they had been in PF1, choices a player gets for purchasing the additional material for the game. Wizards, as far as the rules go, still get those choices as they level up, but are limited by their spellbook and needs to spend to jot it down otherwise.

This new clarification makes it so that the player is keeping a sudo spellbook for the other casters who want spells that is outside of the Core Rulebook. There is also a cost where there was none before. The question that I have is thus...

So when is the errata for the Cleric and Druid spellbooks going to be added in?

Below is the rules about learning spells, with some bolding to point out a few spots I think are important.

You can gain access to a new spell of your tradition from someone who knows that spell or from magical writing like a spellbook or scroll. If you can cast spells of multiple traditions, you can Learn a Spell of any of those traditions, but you must use the corresponding skill to do so. For example, if you were a cleric with the bard multiclass archetype, you couldn't use Religion to add an occult spell to your bardic spell repertoire.

To learn the spell, you must do the following:
Spend 1 hour per level of the spell, during which you must remain in conversation with a person who knows the spell or have the magical writing in your possession.
Have materials with the Price indicated in Table 4–3.
Attempt a skill check for the skill corresponding to your tradition (DC determined by the GM, often close to the DC on Table 4–3). Uncommon or rare spells have higher DCs.
If you have a spellbook, Learning a Spell lets you add the spell to your spellbook; if you prepare spells from a list, it's added to your list; if you have a spell repertoire, you can select it when you add or swap spells.

Based on the above, it seems clear the rule indicates that all spell casters have an individual spells known list. And learn a Spell activity allows for adding new spells to this individual list. It later, mentions spellbook users (and clarifies the costs include the cost of adding the spell to the spellbook). It also covers that there are prepared casters, that are mentioned separately from the spellbook casters, who also utilize this activity, to add spells to their personal spell known list. It mentions the spellcasters with a repertoire, mentioning that once the spell is known and on their personal list, it becomes available for them to replace in their repertoire when that action becomes an option. (either by the occasional level advancing free-retraining of spells, or the retraining downtime activity) In all of these cases spells known is a thing. In all of these things, the individual has a list of spells that they have access to, as in personal access to, or personally known spells. And the term used for adding a spell to your personal list is gaining access. (which is clearly in this case the activity mentioned with the phrase other spells you gain access to)

Clerics by default start by knowing (added to their personal list) all the common spells of their divine tradition that are in the core rulebook. This means there is a limit to the number of spells they know, starting out. Honestly, I understand people wanting to be able to select common spells out of the other books, that are common. I get that, and honestly, at creation (or leveling up) I could see it being pretty fair to have them swap a common CRB spell they would have learned for a non-CRB spell they are eligible for would seem reasonable. Another option that is more generous, but not likely to be felt as game breaking would be to allow any prepared caster to select up to two non-core common spells of their tradition to be part of their free instruction provided by their faith.

This would be similar to the two free spells that the wizard learns (adds to their personal list, and their spellbook) for free. Of note, the starting spells for the spell book of the wizard are limited to spells from the core book. However, the free ones, just list needing to be on the arcane list, it doesn't limit it to the core rulebook. But they are specifically limited to what spells they can prepare to the ones that they know, which are also going to by default be in their spellbook. However, they can't prepare a spell they don't know from someone else's spellbook, although they could prepare a spell they know from someone else's spellbook.

So wizards get 5 free 1st level spells + two more spells each level they advance. for I think a total of 43 free spells known, with more of their own choice, especially at higher levels. Clerics and Druids however, start with 15 or much more first level spells known, and gain something similar every two levels when they open up their next level of spells. But they have less choice in the spells, and don't inherently get extra spells each time a new rulebook comes out. I didn't sit down, but I'm guessing by 20th level they have potentially opened up close to 100 free spells, compared to the other spellcaster's 43.

In the case of the Sorcerer, I don't see any mention of limiting any of the choices, either starting of subsequent to the core rulebook. However, they can only cast the spells in their repertoire and changes to is are generally limited and eat up resources/choices. They end up having to plan to retrain if they want to use a spell that isn't common however. They don't have the flexibility and strong usage of know spells to frequently swap out spells.

I don't find the limitation of book to be mentioned in the Bard's repertoire either.

Witches don't seem to have the limitation on books between Core and their book, but are limited to the 5 free 1st level spells known similar to the wizards. They just don't have the book limitation on their starting spells.

So, based on all of the above, clerics/druids are still better off in basic number of free spells known. Certainly, they are weaker on leveraging subsequent rulebooks outside of core, due to the rule people are concerned about. Rather than trying to discard the rule, which I argue makes sense, if people feel it causes some key issues for some builds, I'd suggest asking for an option to swap 2 non-core common spells for 2 core spells when you first reach that spell-casting level. Additional common spells can be learned via the standard activity, if someone need more than 2. If people don't view it as too powerful, just allowing them to pick 2 non-core commons and add them per level (or just 1) and make it free, you still are limiting the explosion of spells known of those prepared classes that start with the whole core tradition lists from exploding completely over time.

So, looking at the Learn a Spell activity, and the Clerics Divine and Druid's primal spellcasting lists it seems clear to me the intent was as is being talked about. It looks like the Wizard starting spells should be limited as well technically however.

As a GM in home games, I'm inclined to likely allow them to learn some of the other spells that make sense for their build, potentially doing it for free if it feels right. Wouldn't have an issue if Society Play allowed one free per spell level, or allowed a free choice to swap out one or two to replace some core ones. However, the first certainly seems simpler.

I was going to say that perhaps they should have chosen a different choice than Access for the term on the spell... but interesting enough, looking at the Common rarity trait, Common specifies that something is available. It doesn't specify you have access to it, if you want to be specific about words. Common does not grant access, it just means it is available. (so if you can find a place selling your average common scrolls, you'd expect to find one of that spell available, because is is available) But, being common doesn't automatically put it on your personal list of spells you know. Honestly, with the knowledge that hopefully there will be several new books that will lets say at least double the number of spells available. It seems good that care was taken to keep the Druid and Cleric from automatically knowing all of them without having to make all the new ones uncommon.

pauljathome wrote:

If you're thinking Hero Points its not at all clear they apply to this activity

It's an exploration activity, why wouldn't they apply?

Because despite our best efforts/hopes the use of Hero Points has some table variation. Whether or not we think its justified is irrelevant. Its happening.

Lots of rules stuff

Honestly, I only have two counterpoints to your stance:

This ruling/implication/whatever-it-is with clerics/druids flies in the face of how clerics and druids have worked for years. (Granted, I’m going off of what other people have said with this—I haven’t personally played TTRPGs long enough to understand the “legacy.” Plus a not-insignificant amount of PF2 runs contrary to legacy mechanics, so this really isn’t a “valid” point, just one that should be mentioned.)

Other than three specific words (“in this book”) that appear in the cleric, druid, and wizard spellcasting sections, NOWHERE in the Core does it make it apparent that clerics/druids/wizards can only, at base, pick Core spells. This entire precedent is based off of nine words (three words repeated three times) that are easily overlooked in a 640-page book. Granted, I could easily be forgetting something, but I personally feel like if the design team made that drastic of a change between editions then they would have shown that in more than just nine words.

But humans make errors, so who am I to judge?

I wonder how different this issue would be if the CRB had been released without the language "or from other divine spells to which you gain access" such that we were aware from the start they would have to use Learn a Spell outside the CRB?

I wonder how different this issue would be if the CRB had been released without the language "or from other divine spells to which you gain access" such that we were aware from the start they would have to use Learn a Spell outside the CRB?

For me, hugely different. The main issue for several of us is that reading the words as the "new" way seems like pedantry of the highest order and the CRB can't handle that level of scrutiny (not should it).

For example, that section talks ONLY about the spells gained at character creation. As written, it says NOTHING about what one gains as one levels up (unlike the section for wizard which does cover this).

Before this ruling it was "obvious" that it applied to levelling up too. But pretty much this same level of pedantry means that it doesn't. As written, there is absolutely no guidance on what spells a cleric gets as they level up.

Now that's patently absurd. I'm just using it as a clear example that the rules can NOT generally be read this closely.

Leveling up, the cleric/druid gains spell slots to which they can prepare spells, but do not technically gain new spells. Gaining a new higher level of casting would fall back on the access that they got for 1st level, which is the Core Rulebook spells, for the new set of spells they can choose from to use for the new tier of spell slots.

The problem with the rule/ruling is that it isn't how most players have done their selection choices in the past (in either system, PF1 or PF2). No one has kept a spellbook/list for spells for anything other than the Wizard, Alchemist, and the familiar list for the Witch. Now, one has an added expense to gain access to common spells that are outside the pages of a certain rulebook.

Always been like this? Well, it at first the Core Rulebook is all we had, so this didn't ping at first. Then we made the assumption that it worked much in the same manner as PF1 when the new books started coming out three months later.

I wonder how different this issue would be if the CRB had been released without the language "or from other divine spells to which you gain access" such that we were aware from the start they would have to use Learn a Spell outside the CRB?

Without that part... you would be able to learn new spells, with the Learn a spell activity, but would be unable to cast them as a prepared spell (meaning, you couldn't use them). Granted, that reading would seem to have something wrong (unintended for it) and so there would be discussions about what it did mean, since the literal meaning would have been broken.

So it would have likely brought up the issue earlier, since it would have been pointed out you couldn't ever prepared uncommon/rare/unique spells.

A point as to why they may have addressed this. In past versions each class had its own spell list (save perhaps for Sorcerers and Wizards sharing one) This meant that they could create spells for numerous classes and could easily only hand specific ones out to specific classes. Not all inquisitors spells showed up automatically in the cleric spells, etc. If they wanted to give clerics a new spell, they in some cases, if I recall, they made new domains, granting it as a new granted spell. In other cases, yes, they made new spells that all clerics or druids got. To get the new spell, they invested in a specific new domain.

Now with traditions you have these four large master lists. If you make a new divine or primal spell, and suddenly every cleric/druid knows it out the gate, it is expanding the power (by flexibility) of those classes significantly via each publication. So I think this is due in large part to the use of the spell traditions and those large lists. But it also solves something they probably considered a bit of a minor issue with the original cleric/druid related to inflation.

BTW: @Hillis, at first I thought I read that same bit that the Cleric only seems to be talking about your starting spells, but when I re-read it several times, it points out that you start with two first level spells, and you cast them out of the set of common divine spells in the core book, (it doesn't say 1st level spells) plus any other spells you gain access to (not saying 'available', which is what common trait grants you).

Trying to think through potential solutions to people's concerns, on how they are specifically being impacted? Would it viable to have a simple boon that lets a cleric/druid add a non-core common spell for free from each spell level they have access to for one such class? In private play, as a GM I'd probably have them swap a common core spell for the new one they one, but I think in society play it would be easier/simpler to make it be a boon that lets them add the spell.

Understanding, that others feel impacted, how many people something like the above would be better than having to pay for those spells, and make extra rolls to make their concepts work? I feel bad that people's concepts for cleric and druid are suffering, but I'm also glad their starting/automatic spells known are reigned in. So I'd be interested in seeing a solution that enables most/many concepts easily, that doesn't simply break the floodgates of spells known.

I've mentioned it upthread a few times, but I think a reasonable solution to the theme and powercreep problems is the cleric/druid "spellbooks". Now all prepared casters have the same expectations.

It's probably too late for such a major change to the way the rules are written but that would've been my preferred solution. It's not like most clerics/druids prep more than a handful of spells for each spell level.

While I don't really have a problem with Divine casters have a "spellbook" maybe if it we called it a "prayer book" it would feel better?

Maybe part of the solution is to implement exactly that: Divine casters have a "pray book"("spell book") that holds the spell granted to them. This would fall under a GM's discretion and I would think something the OP can do.

I will admit that even with my vehement objection to this reading of that text, making all prepared casters work with some kind of 'spells known' / prayer book / natural writings / other book mechanic would make a hell of a lot more sense if the Core Dev team really did have concerns about the eternal expansion of the primal and divine lists. Give each cleric and druid a set to start and the the same two free spells Wizards get (to which they have access) at each level to customize their lists.

It doesn't explain the inconsistencies between classes published in the CRB and those published in the APG, but it's at least a more fair implementation by not taxing Druids and Clerics twice (once to buy the book, and once again on the characters wealth) if you'd just as rather know Chill Spray instead of Burning Hands (as a simple example).

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