Kingmaker Update

Cori Marie wrote:

So if your gaming group had waited to dissolve until after you had the product it wouldn't have been a waste of money?

It would have been just another one of those things. Paizo ran a Kickstarter, making promises as to providing books. Twenty-six months later, we haven't gotten the PDFs, much less the physical books that were promised. Paizo dropped the ball. That cannot be argued. We can argue about how "justified" it was, but the fact is, they received money, we have received nothing but glimpses at the product we've already paid for.

James Jacobs has definitely not dropped the ball in any way. I remember many posters complaining that his other works were getting delayed because he was working 110% on Kingmaker2.

If I recall it was always advertised a side project they would be working with alongside another company, so of course there main lines would roughly maintain their schedule( although they too were affected by the pandemic and other things that caused delays such as fist of the ruby Phoenix coming all out at once.)

From the Game on Tabletop site:

The estimated delivery date depends on the good faith of the Project Manager and is not guaranteed by Black Book. The schedule can change depending on the work to be done by the Project Manager. The Project Manager must notify the Backers of any changes as soon as possible

Original date is not guaranteed and is subject to change, though project creators are expected to notify backers of delays - which Paizo has done.

Paizo has definitely made mistakes on this. It's clear, and has been stated, that the project may have been overly ambitious and that they underestimated the toll it would have and the resources (particularly staff) it needed to progress healthily. The pandemic and other noted issues that have caused the project to stymie are significant factors, but they aren't the whole story, Paizo definitely shares some responsibility.

That said, it's also extremely unfair and disingenuous to charge Paizo with pushing the project back "because they've already got the money", or some similar nonsense. See pixierose's post above, she stated it fairly succinctly: This was a kickstarter project. It was never advertised to integrate seamlessly into their project lineup. Paizo will not, and should not be expected to, compromise their regular business model because of this project's delay.

Again, it's fair to say that they underestimated the workload and to be disappointed with the delay; however there's absolutely nothing that would indicate to me that Paizo isn't doing their utmost to honor their commitment to the project and those who've supported it.

It's unfortunate that it's been delayed for so long. I suspect Paizo is not any happier about this than many of their customers are.

In fact here is the most recent update on expected release, from July 7, 2021:

A few weeks ago at PaizoCon, we gave a broad overview of Pathfinder products on the near and middle horizon, with a look at upcoming Adventure Paths, rulebooks, world guides and more. I also used the opportunity to show off a huge amount of exciting new art for our ongoing Kingmaker conversion process, and to update everyone on the project’s status and our expectation on when it will formally release. And there’s no easy way to say it, but we’re pushing back the drop date for what I hope will be the very last time, to April 2022.

WTF?!?!?, you might ask, and it’s a reasonable question. The reality of the situation is that the scope of updating and converting this beloved campaign to multiple rulesets at the same time has turned out to be far more challenging than we had originally anticipated. As the project has worked its way through development over the last year, we’ve continued to add new details, fill in the blanks here and there, and commission a heaping pile of brand new art in order to make the release fully live up to its potential. James Jacobs, Pathfinder’s Creative Director and the original developer of the Kingmaker Adventure Path, has been working tirelessly to update the campaign and make it as awesome as humanly possible, and with all of the components and special concerns related to this one (like publishing stats for three different editions at the same time) it's taken longer than any of us ever thought it would.

All that being said, though, the development phase of this project is officially OVER, and ALL components of the project have been turned over to Paizo’s editing and art teams. While the remaining process still takes time (hence the April 2022 release date), by this point all of the thorny issues and new writing are behind us, so we don’t anticipate any further delays. In fact, I think there’s a small chance April is being too pessimistic, but after infusing this project with too much optimism from the very beginning, I’m more confident in a date I know we will hit rather than one I hope we will hit. This is all a result of back-ups that trace all the way back to the launch of Pathfinder Second Edition mixed with the uncertainty of the pandemic and the fact that this project has proven to be far more difficult than we had anticipated. I guess it’s good that after 20 years in this business I can still surprise myself with what I don’t know, but it’s a bummer that the surprises in this case have resulted in a significantly delayed product.

I’ve seen the material James and company have been developing. I’ve drooled over all the awesome art that has been commissioned for this project (some of which you can see within this post), and I know how awesome everything is going to be when it is finished. But I also know that it is far, far later than any of you anticipated it being, and for that I do apologize. This project’s scope ballooned during the campaign, and we didn’t allocate the appropriate level of resources to it from the beginning. Me saying, “sorry folks, it’s been a learning experience and has generated a lot of things we will not do again or will do very differently in the future” doesn’t make the products appear any sooner or alleviate any of the stress you folks are feeling as you wait, but it is none the less an important part of the story and I wanted to say it loudly and clearly.

The project is moving forward. The project has a solid delivery date that I truly believe we can hit. I thank you for your continued patience. Things are moving rapidly toward publication, and I hope that you will find it has been worth the wait when it finally arrives.

Next month we should be able to start showing off some sample page layouts and other goodies that start putting the images and words into a proper context. Until then, here’s a huge sample of final art for the project to give a greater sense of what is in store.

More soon, with additional monthly updates to come as we make our way toward the finish line at last. Until then, thanks for supporting the project and for helping us to make this new Kingmaker project—in all its various forms—a reality.

Erik Mona, Publisher

My main concern at this point, if you could call it that, is that if the product with the full and final version of the edits for all the systems they're supporting isn't already done with writing, editing, layout, and has been sent off to China to print the darn thing then I don't see how an early 2022 timeframe can still be met.

I'm suspect that we'll see some kind of update near the beginning of the coming year though, perhaps that will have a bit more information about where they're at and what additional delays might happen.

I believe everything has been sent off to print according to the updates we've gotten. They have been very good about backer updates, and letting us know that things have gone off to the printers. I know for sure the pawns, the maps, and at the very least the main book have gone to print, I think the bestiaries have too.

If the files have already been sent to the ol' printing presses and dead tree industry folk then the only real hangup I imagine would involve waiting until the books get their turn in the, probably backlogged, line of other print materials their partner has to produce... and then shipping, hopefully, the shipping isn't also too bogged down by the time the ink dries but frankly, that's not really something I expect Paizo to know TOO much about on a logistical level let alone talk about publicly.

My esteem for Mr Mona is rising again. He is showing great courage these days IMO.

If the files have already been sent to the ol' printing presses and dead tree industry folk then the only real hangup I imagine would involve waiting until the books get their turn in the, probably backlogged, line of other print materials their partner has to produce... and then shipping, hopefully, the shipping isn't also too bogged down by the time the ink dries but frankly, that's not really something I expect Paizo to know TOO much about on a logistical level let alone talk about publicly.

Oh, shipping will be delayed for the next year and a half, at least.

Something new that hadn't occurred to me to worry about until today was, with people in shipping (and logistics in general) getting burned out and leaving the industry, there's starting to be a knowledge gap about why things are the way they are. I've seen some "holy crap" stupid takes over the last few months on how to "solve" the port crisis, like stacking empty containers 4-6 high. But if enough middle people like me leave, all that will be left are going to be the diehards trying to do the work of six people and the newbies who will make basic safety mistakes in the name of efficiency because no one is around to tell them any better.

Oh, shipping will be delayed for the next year and a half, at least.

:(

So their estimate of when it will be released was, as usual, woefully off mark.

We have a saying in France : "Criticizing is easy. Creating is difficult."

We have a saying in France : "Criticizing is easy. Creating is difficult."

Yeah, I don't get people who are critical of those who are way more capable at a given skill than they are.

Example: People criticizing 20-year veteran game developers about bugs in a game when they don't know jack about programming or game development.

We have a saying in France : "Criticizing is easy. Creating is difficult."

Hey, thanks for disparaging my profession. I appreciate it. Criticism is in and of itself a form of art, one that is very different but no less valid than other forms of art. If you don't believe me, I implore you to buy one of Lester Bangs' books of essays (I'm particularly fond of Mainlines, Blood Feasts, and Bad Taste: A Lester Bangs Reader which contains a remarkable essay that delves into the religious themes and symbolism of Black Sabbath in an unexpected way). You don't have to be an expert penciler to be able to comment on what does and doesn't work in a comic book, you don't have to be an expert game designer to discuss the themes of the lore in a game world.

The Raven Black wrote:

We have a saying in France : "Criticizing is easy. Creating is difficult."

Hey, thanks for disparaging my profession. I appreciate it. Criticism is in and of itself a form of art, one that is very different but no less valid than other forms of art. If you don't believe me, I implore you to buy one of Lester Bangs' books of essays (I'm particularly fond of Mainlines, Blood Feasts, and Bad Taste: A Lester Bangs Reader which contains a remarkable essay that delves into the religious themes and symbolism of Black Sabbath in an unexpected way). You don't have to be an expert penciler to be able to comment on what does and doesn't work in a comic book, you don't have to be an expert game designer to discuss the themes of the lore in a game world.

I did not intend to give offense to any professional here. Sorry about that. I offer you my sincere apologies.

Thank you for the apology. That's just a phrase that gets thrown at critics on a regular basis, usually by fans of a specific artist or writer not taking into account the work that goes into criticism, so it's one that I have a visceral reaction to.

Can I just say, the art for this blog post is *gorgeous*. The lady with the buckler has a really distinct saturated color palette--almost festive!--and the action in the "ambushed" art is incredibly expressive and well-proportioned. The chimera gets across a really strong mood, and the owlbear's motion is absolutely perfectly captured.

We have a saying in France : "Criticizing is easy. Creating is difficult."

Wow, you have sayings in English? I thought it's French all the way no matter what ;-P

I don't think TRB meant anything by the saying, but it's a saying used to denigrate and gatekeep good-faith critique. You don't have to be a film maker to critique a film, but that doesn't make good film criticism easy. It's a very distinct skillset.

(I also think that RD went a lot further than Black Raven, but that's part of the frustrating thing about the saying--it has meaning to people beyond its literal weight, and is used to lead into broader and clumsier arguments about the invalidity of media criticism.)

Your post falls under the category of personal harassment. Don't attack other posters like that.

If you give money to something you have a right to be critical of that thing. Let's skip past professional reviewers/critics and our opinion of them for now. That phrase is basically a cut against the consumer.

"Shut up if you can't do better" is a tedious argument as it strips the right to criticism from early everyone.

I'm pretty sure TRB has been a critic to someone whose skillet they lack before. Pretty much everyone has.

Saying "you don't have to be an expert" and "criticizing is easy" are two very different statements. I am not an expert penciler. I am a professional critic. Gene Siskel never made a movie, but that didn't mean that his voice as a critic was less meaningful than Roger Ebert's. Greil Marcus has never made a rock album, but his voice as a music critic is no less important than Lester Bangs'. My offense was at writing off my career as "easy" just like you'd probably take offense if I said your career was easy.

Probably more accurate to say being critical is easy--actually criticizing something in good faith is a skill, but choosing to tear down something you don't understand implies no more understanding or skill than any other opinion that exists out there in the Internet. Let us not disparage the very real skills required to break down and evaluate something to see what works and what doesn't by conflating that skill with amateur cynicism.

Criticism that isn't constructive criticism is just plain old obnoxious rudeness.

Look, all I know is that I'm satisfied that Paizo is doing its best and I'm still looking forward to my book, whenever it arrives. Maybe everyone should tone down their umbrage a bit. It's a freakin' game, not the cure for cancer and it'll be here when it gets here.

Yes, telling people to calm down has historically been a successful strategy.

I honestly think all the people involved in this project already feel really bad about the delays and that they let their fans / investors / customers down.

No need to double down on that.

I think the only ones who deserve critique are the management of Paizo who committed the company to a crowdfunding side project after repeatedly saying "no more crowdfunding side projects", then side-tracking it at every opportunity to make way for higher priority stuff, despite knowing that between the critical acclaim of Kingmaker, synergy with the video game and nostalgia, the volume of emotions from the fanbase concerning this project will be Rather High, To Put It Mildly.

Of course, it's rank-and-file employees such as James that get bashed over this, not Lisa or Jeff.

So why does this project keep getting shoved to the back of the line . . .The only difference I see is that they already have the money for this product, so there's less incentive to get it out on time.

That's certainly the logical conclusion.

Even if they never release Kingmaker, they get to keep the money. If they never release products we haven't paid for yet, they don't get money.

Grumpus wrote:

So why does this project keep getting shoved to the back of the line . . .The only difference I see is that they already have the money for this product, so there's less incentive to get it out on time.

That's certainly the logical conclusion.

Even if they never release Kingmaker, they get to keep the money. If they never release products we haven't paid for yet, they don't get money.

I still don't get how that is legal. When Kickstarter first came out, they even advertised as being a service meant to protect both parties and prevent exactly that kind of thing from happening.

If you are unable to live up to a contractual agreement, then that's grounds for a lawsuit. If you take someone's money without ever intending to honor the promise, that's straight up fraud.

1. While we use Kickstarter the term like Band-Aid the platform used was not KIckstarter but Game On Tabletop

2. I forgot what 2 was.

Luke Styer wrote:

Grumpus wrote:

So why does this project keep getting shoved to the back of the line . . .The only difference I see is that they already have the money for this product, so there's less incentive to get it out on time.

That's certainly the logical conclusion.

Even if they never release Kingmaker, they get to keep the money. If they never release products we haven't paid for yet, they don't get money.

I still don't get how that is legal. When Kickstarter first came out, they even advertised as being a service meant to protect both parties and prevent exactly that kind of thing from happening.

If you are unable to live up to a contractual agreement, then that's grounds for a lawsuit. If you take someone's money without ever intending to honor the promise, that's straight up fraud.

But there is no contractual agreement. Kickstarter and similar websites are explicit. You are not "buying" anything. It is much more akin to an investment. You are giving them money which they need to fund the project but there is no promise that it will be done.

From Game On Table's Liability page wherein Black Book is the company and Game On is the platform, bolding mine.

"Black Book does not oversee the performance of a Project and does not intervene in disputes between Backers and Project Manager. Black Book is not responsible for damages or losses related to the use of the Services by Project Owners or Backers. Black Book does not get involved in disputes between Project Managers and the Backers or any third parties related to the use of the Services. Black Book does not oversee the performance or timeliness of Projects, and does not endorse any content submitted by users to the Website. When you use the Services, you release Black Book of claims, damages, and claims of any kind known or unknown, foreseeable or not, disclosed or undisclosed arising out of or in connection with such disputes and the Services. Any content accessed through the Service is at your own risk. You are solely responsible for all loss or damage caused to any party."

Removed a harassing post. Keep your words civil to others. If you cannot, please refrain from posting. I left the rest of the criticism thread, though it is going off in its own direction. I'm going to ask we refocus this thread to its original topic of the Kingmaker project. Thanks!

Does anyone know if they are going to be charging more for shipping, since the quoted price is now three years out of date, or if they are honoring their original estimate?

I have yet to see an answer that adresses this but...

IF the delay is, as many allege, shipping, why is the digital copy still delayed !!!

I don't understand if shipping is the only issue why we can't just have the freaking pdf!!

I don't even want the paperback! As a rule I try never to buy them!

Three years out of date, lol. Second edition isn't even three years old, nor is this project. The project is a bit over a year late, and will likely be released about a year and a half after the first projected date.

I'm happy to wait, for it's only late until it's shipped, but if it's bad it is likely bad forever.

Three years out of date, lol. Second edition isn't even three years old, nor is this project. The project is a bit over a year late, and will likely be released about a year and a half after the first projected date.

I'm happy to wait, for it's only late until it's shipped, but if it's bad it is likely bad forever.

I don't think they were saying the project was 3 years late. But that those who backed the project in 2019 were charged money at that time for shipping. And with recent increases in overall shipping costs in the world, they were wondering if we would be charged more now to account for this, or if Paizo will "eat" any additional shipping costs.

And I will also echo the question of them releasing the PDFs now/soon. Since the backers already paid for the project in 2019, there should be no problems breaking Paizos usual process of not issuing PDFs until physical product shipped.

I have yet to see an answer that adresses this but...

IF the delay is, as many allege, shipping, why is the digital copy still delayed !!!

I don't understand if shipping is the only issue why we can't just have the freaking pdf!!

I don't even want the paperback! As a rule I try never to buy them!

This comes up a lot. So, the answer is some that a lot of people on the forums are already familiar with.

Paizo publishes TTRPGs. While we on here may think of that as a business where people mostly buy PDFs, the physical sales are important. A lot of those physical sales happen at friendly local gaming stores- and some very important sales too. If someone buys a book from Paizo's site, it's almost certainly someone who is already familiar with it. But browsing the shelves of a store and seeing a cool book full of undead, that just happens to be Pathfinder? That can attract new people. Plus, those game stores are where a lot of games actually take place.

Those game stores can only sell the physical copies. And if Paizo we're to ever release PDFs for sale in advance- months in advance, potentially- the physical sales would plummet. That's a lot of bridges burned, especially when that shelf space could easily be more D&D.

The result is that Paizo puts PDFs and physical copies out simultaneously. No special exceptions.

And if Paizo we're to ever release PDFs for sale in advance- months in advance, potentially- the physical sales would plummet.

Snipping out this part, because in this case I/we are not expecting them to put the PDFs on sale on their site, BUT to provide them to the people who paid for the project in 2019.

Crowdfunding explicitly never actually represents purchasing anything at all, you did not pay for the PDF, nor the book, nor anything else at all, really it is technically more akin to a donation than it is any form of actual purchase.

I really do hope that Paizo stops doing crowdfunding drives because every single time there are delays these same issues come up and questions get asked, and it always boils down to "you paid to back a project not to purchase a product."

Paizo never releases PDFs in advance of them being able to at LEAST start putting shipping labels on cardboard boxes filled with physical product, that is how it's worked over the last 20 years and I don't think it's probably ever going to change regardless of if the materials in question came from the main "production line" of writers/authors/designers/editors or by way of starting its life as a crowdfunded project.

QuidEst wrote:

And if Paizo we're to ever release PDFs for sale in advance- months in advance, potentially- the physical sales would plummet.

Snipping out this part, because in this case I/we are not expecting them to put the PDFs on sale on their site, BUT to provide them to the people who paid for the project in 2019.

Backers backed a book project that happens to include pdfs of the book when published. This is entirely consistent with how Paizo has operated its business for the last decade. Why one would expect different because Veruca Salt backed the project, I don't know.

Also, releasing the pdfs will end in rampant piracy, and if that occurs months ahead of the release of the book, that's also a problem.

QuidEst wrote:

And if Paizo we're to ever release PDFs for sale in advance- months in advance, potentially- the physical sales would plummet.

Snipping out this part, because in this case I/we are not expecting them to put the PDFs on sale on their site, BUT to provide them to the people who paid for the project in 2019.

Sure, but you can see how that would be even worse, right? Having a major AP available only via "you backed this a few years ago" or "piracy" would be a really bad move.

Three years out of date, lol. Second edition isn't even three years old, nor is this project. The project is a bit over a year late, and will likely be released about a year and a half after the first projected date.

I'm happy to wait, for it's only late until it's shipped, but if it's bad it is likely bad forever.

Might want to check things before posting, I put in my payment for this thing May 19th of 2019, which makes this just 2 months shy of 3 years since the shipping price was calculated. Ample time for prices to be increased.

And it's good that you're so devoted that you are willing to give them your money for no product, but I put in for a specific purpose, and I think that having achieved over a thousand percent of their goal, they are obligated to provide. They will, but that wasn't the point of my post.

Paizo’s business model has always been consistent: you get your PDF when the book ships. You’re welcome to not like that, but it isn’t news.

That is no excuse not to release PDFs

There's no reason to change their decades old policy.

People frequently complain that, in their particular case, there IS a reason for changing the policy.

So far, none of those reasons have been more important to Paizo than maintaining its relationship with brick and mortar customers.