The Saga Lands

Okay, but that's all 1e stuff anyway. We have no idea what their stats would look like in 2e. Doesn't help that Sorshen's speciality (enchantment) is generally a poor matchup against undead.

Sorshen retrained to become a generalist.

I also have to wonder why she's sort of allowing Belimarius to run wild. Unless B learned some new tricks, Sorshen could pretty easily keep B in line if she wanted

One owes some propriety to one's fellow Runelords, even if they are Johnny-come-latelies and return none of the courtesy. Sorshen never opposed Alaznist directly either.

No one. Korvosa is and remains a free city.

In name, maybe. But decline as a power inevitably means losing out to another power, that is an iron law of power politics. The only way to maintain any measure of independence at all as a weak power is to play your would-be overlords against each other, and Kroft doesn't seem given to that kind of wileyness. Nor does she have many cards to play.

1) Sorshen is trying VERY hard not to fall into the trap of evil Runelord who solves problems by warfare and violence, since she's seen that lead to the downfall of pretty much ever other runelord over the eons. She's pretty convinced that Belimarius is going to do the job of taking out Belimarius herself. She's probably right.

More to the point, as long as Belimarius is around painting a target on her own back, any do-gooders kicking about will be gunning primarily for her and not Sorshen. This is also a good reason not to scry-and-fry Tar-Baphon, Razmir, Geb, or half a dozen others.

James Jacobs wrote:

No one. Korvosa is and remains a free city.

In name, maybe. But decline as a power inevitably means losing out to another power, that is an iron law of power politics. The only way to maintain any measure of independence at all as a weak power is to play your would-be overlords against each other, and Kroft doesn't seem given to that kind of wileyness. Nor does she have many cards to play.

Or, potentially, the setting will not contain nations who are interested in subjugating weak powers, either as a matter of principle or because everybody has more pressing issues (like a certain lich).

Like if we've thrown out the square-cube law so we can make the setting work the way we want (by having giants and dragons), we can pretty much throw out any other law we want because physics is quite a bit more fundamental than politics.

Too many things in the updated setting seem to be like "good is winning". That's not a good thing in my book, games need challanges, heroes need horrible evil to vaniquish triumphing against all odds... instead too many things seem to have gone far too well in the world.

Irrisen is not an evil place anymore now? The mammoth lords don't need to defend themselves against external threats anymore? Orcs are mostly focused on defying the Whispering Tyrant? And I could go on for quite a long time, considering all we have seen until now.

I get the PCs had successes and that has to be accounted for, but I'm strating to feel like the "new challanges", when presented pale in comparison with what came before.

Too many things in the updated setting seem to be like "good is winning".

People of Lastwall certainly don't feel that way (or any way).

But most of it is because these major changes generally come from APs or PFS scenarios, which generally do not end with the world being a worse place than it started as. If we need new problems for the PCs to have to solve, we can always just invent them as a pretense for the adventure. After all, Rovagug is still trapped in the core and there's still a huge number of Aboleths in stasis since before earthfall... so things can go pear-shaped at any point.

Also, the blog post is almost certainly less detailed than the actual book, and "referencing something Pathfinder fans are already aware of" is probably a better use of space here than "detailing a new threat."

Well, if “good is winning “ (because it’s assumed that parties succeed in the various APs), let’s look at the other side of things-

The Whispering Tyrant is back, large and in charge, forcing the entire region to adapt to his presence.

Yeah, Sorshen’s nice enough, but she has Belimarius to deal with, so while New Thassilon has some promise, it also has internal squabbling.

Irrisen may suck less, but that doesn’t mean the neighbors trust it- especially since Linnorm Kings aren’t exactly required to be nice. In fact, if the right (or wrong) Linnorm Kings or the Mammoth Lords decide that Anastasia’s relative benevolence is a sign of weakness, they may well attack here and there.

Korvosa is free of Ileosa, but not the damage she did- not just to the people and infrastructure of the city, but to the “idea” of Korvosa itself.

The orcs of Belkzen might have their eyes on the new undead threat, but that doesn’t make them good or nice.

The Mammoth Lords no longer have an active Worldwound to contend with- which is a good thing- but Sarkoris is still a dangerous wasteland, and the Mammoth Lords themselves run the gamut of motivations.

If the PCs of the past decade have made things better, that hardly means everything is hunky-dory.

Not to mention that there are still tons of demons around, they just aren't pouring out of the Worldwound constantly.

Honestly, it feels like a breath of fresh air. There's still plenty of challenges and conflicts, but it's nice to see things get better for the setting in some ways. One of few issues I had with the setting in 1e was that it felt like Golarion was so doomed by a hundred different threats that it kinda felt over the top.

Too many things in the updated setting seem to be like "good is winning".

What you might be sensing is a side-effect of us deciding that we didn't want to arbitrarily decide some Adventure Paths are canonically failures. Forcing a group to think we assume they're a failure simply because they happened to play one such AP would be gross.

In any event, rest assured that there's still a need for heroes, and you'll see examples of that every single month in the Adventure Path installments and Pathfinder Society adventures, and now and then in adventures as well.

I mean even after the Adventure Path there are still trials that have existed or could have been caused *because* of the successful endings of the Adventure Paths.

There is still a Necromancer building an army to take Isger, the Erinyes Company exists still and has canonically taken the fight to the Order of the Scourge one several instances prior to the Glorious Reclamation arriving, there might be a rogue army of Taldan Soldier's planning to invade somewhere, there is a lot that could and can go wrong still.

What you might be sensing is a side-effect of us deciding that we didn't want to arbitrarily decide some Adventure Paths are canonically failures. Forcing a group to think we assume they're a failure simply because they happened to play one such AP would be gross.

Aren't there APs that have barely sold?

(Although, there's been nothing so far to suggest Jade Regent wasn't a failure, and assuming it was could allow y'all to put Ameiko back in Varisia. . . )

I mean even after the Adventure Path there are still trials that have existed or could have been caused *because* of the successful endings of the Adventure Paths.

There is still a Necromancer building an army to take Isger, the Erinyes Company exists still and has canonically taken the fight to the Order of the Scourge one several instances prior to the Glorious Reclamation arriving, there might be a rogue army of Taldan Soldier's planning to invade somewhere, there is a lot that could and can go wrong still.

Don't forget Tanglebriar! It even has its own name on the map now, suggesting an elevation of importance and threat (and a diminishment of Kyonin elvendom, good riddance).

With the Worldwound closed, Tanglebriar is probably the most important center for demons on Avistan.

Rogar Valertis wrote:

Too many things in the updated setting seem to be like "good is winning".

What you might be sensing is a side-effect of us deciding that we didn't want to arbitrarily decide some Adventure Paths are canonically failures. Forcing a group to think we assume they're a failure simply because they happened to play one such AP would be gross.

In any event, rest assured that there's still a need for heroes, and you'll see examples of that every single month in the Adventure Path installments and Pathfinder Society adventures, and now and then in adventures as well.

Is there a chance for some of the Continuing the Campaign stuff to be factored in? I know that Sorshen bringing Ileosa back as a vampire would probably not fit her character development but the whole idea of her scamming her way out of Hell was kind of awesome

Aren't there APs that have barely sold?

Doesn't matter. If there's even one group that bought an AP, played it, had a good time, and has a personal connection with the story then editorial should not, from on high, dictate that it never happened.

James Jacobs wrote:

What you might be sensing is a side-effect of us deciding that we didn't want to arbitrarily decide some Adventure Paths are canonically failures. Forcing a group to think we assume they're a failure simply because they happened to play one such AP would be gross.

Aren't there APs that have barely sold?

(Although, there's been nothing so far to suggest Jade Regent wasn't a failure, and assuming it was could allow y'all to put Ameiko back in Varisia. . . )

ALL of our Adventure Paths have sold well. We don't have any that have "barely sold." Some sold better than others, sure, and there's some that we printed too many back in the early days when we were still figuring out supply and demand for them, but the concept that we have entire Adventure Paths that "barely sold" is ludicrous.

Aenigma wrote:

Is the woman with red hair King Thira? I thought Ulfen have blond or gray hair.

Or, being analogues to Scandinavians, they have red hair as well. They don't come in blonde only.

Quote:

Also she doesn't seem like old enough to be Sveinn's daughter. Shouldn't she be his granddaughter?

That's not how baby making works. Also neither of their ages are mentioned.

But I thought that pureblood Nordic people are 100 % blond! Those Scandinavians who are not blond? They are not blond because their ancestors married non-Scandinavians like Latins or Slavs. Thus I thought Ulfen should be 100% blond because they seem much more isolated than the Scandinavians nowadays.

It was mentioned that Sveinn was born in 4632 AR. If Thira is indeed his daughter, chances are good that she is in her forties or fifties.

Rysky wrote:

Aenigma wrote:

Is the woman with red hair King Thira? I thought Ulfen have blond or gray hair.

Or, being analogues to Scandinavians, they have red hair as well. They don't come in blonde only.

Quote:

Also she doesn't seem like old enough to be Sveinn's daughter. Shouldn't she be his granddaughter?

That's not how baby making works. Also neither of their ages are mentioned.

But I thought that pureblood Nordic people are 100 % blond! Those Scandinavians who are not blond? They are not blond because their ancestors married non-Scandinavians like Latins or Slavs. Thus I thought Ulfen should be 100% blond because they seem much more isolated than the Scandinavians nowadays.

It was mentioned that Sveinn was born in 4632 AR. If Thira is indeed his daughter, chances are good that she is in her forties or fifties.

As Finnish person, that sounds almost racist :p That kinda belongs to more into "lol, americans think we have polar bears" category than genuinely offensive but still

Like, just because light colored hair is common in Nordic countries doesn't mean everyone here is blond. Just google for Finnish music bands and check how many you can find where everyone is actually blond :P (you can repeat similar search to each nordic country, concerts photos are good places to check for hair color unsurprisingly)

In practice its more of even split really. Like red hair is actually rare, but brown, blond and black hair, none of it is really notable enough to stand out in crowd.

Rysky wrote:

Aenigma wrote:

Is the woman with red hair King Thira? I thought Ulfen have blond or gray hair.

Or, being analogues to Scandinavians, they have red hair as well. They don't come in blonde only.

Quote:

Also she doesn't seem like old enough to be Sveinn's daughter. Shouldn't she be his granddaughter?

That's not how baby making works. Also neither of their ages are mentioned.

But I thought that pureblood Nordic people are 100 % blond! Those Scandinavians who are not blond? They are not blond because their ancestors married non-Scandinavians like Latins or Slavs.

. . . I really hope this bit of brazen racialism is an instance of Poe's Law.

EDIT: ninja'd by CorvusMask.

It was mentioned that Sveinn was born in 4632 AR. If Thira is indeed his daughter, chances are good that she is in her forties or fifties.

Or 20s or 30s, cause again, not how baby making works.

Where did you get the idea that Scandinavians are all blonde from? That...that doesn’t make any sense. We’ve also seen Ulfen with other hair colors than blonde as well, besides there is some Celtic influence amongst the Ulfen as well.

I have played through two full Adventure Paths: Rise of the Runelords and Jade Regent. Consequently, I have a deep love for this section of Varisia! It is so great to hear about all the changes that have occurred in the past 10 years as a result of the Adventure Path stories! While I am ready to explore other regions of this world, I will always have a soft spot for Sandpoint!

Jade Regent was a bigger hit than Runelords in my group. We have always enjoyed Asian culture as a backdrop to our stories. The combination of the caravan ride through these northern lands, over the Crown of the World, and into the cultures of Tian Xia was AMAZING! If you haven't tried this AP, you should give it a whirl. Vikings versus Ninjas!! How cool is that?!

BTW, in our campaigns, Ameiko is not coming back to Sandpoint! She has claimed the throne on the other side of the world!

Just because northern Europeans are more likely to have blond hair than most other people doesn't mean they all do...

I mean, my entire family is 100% Swedish with records dating to the 14th century (compiled by my relatives in Sweden). None of that matters, and people before then had boats and went all over probably. but while I have blonde hair, both of my brothers have brown hair.

What has become of Sandpoint and Kaer Maga?

What has become of Sandpoint and Kaer Maga?

Sandpoint was most recently updated in the Sandpoint book a fairly recent Campaign Setting book, and the lore still stands. Kaer Maga is as weird as ever.

Kroft doesn't seem given to that kind of wileyness. Nor does she have many cards to play.

She does, presumably, have a party of quite high level adventurers as allies. That is a pretty impressive hand :-)

I have always thought that Germanics and Celts were originally 100 % blond, but after being conquered by Romans, they started to marry the invaders and thus became... un-blond? Heck, many arts in many books depict Vikings as blond warriors. So I thought, "Oh, blond hair was originated in Northern Europe, and thus the blond French, blond Italians, or blond Greeks are the result of interracial marriages!" It seems it's not the case, maybe?

CorvusMask, I thought Finnish are not blond because they are descendants of Fino-Ugric people instead of Vikings. Well, if there are quite many blond Finnish, then can I assume that there are many Swedish people living in Finland?

I have always thought that Germanics and Celts were originally 100 % blond, but after being conquered by Romans, they started to marry the invaders and thus became... un-blond? Heck, many arts in many books depict Vikings as blond warriors. So I thought, "Oh, blond hair was originated in Northern Europe, and thus the blond French, blond Italians, or blond Greeks are the result of interracial marriages!" It seems it's not the case, maybe?

CorvusMask, I thought Finnish are not blond because they are descendants of Fino-Ugric people instead of Vikings. So can I assume that there are many Swedish people living in Finland?

Ye kinda keep digging yerself deeper there. Like waaaaaaaaay deeper. I'm not gonna go into long explanation on Finnish Swedes so you can just read this on your own. I'd recommend paying attention to chart of municipalities where Swedish language is majority.

Also, you DO know that blond hair is recessive trait?

Anyhoo, I'm just gonna post this chart from wikipedia to high light that its not univeral thing in Sweden as well :P

marv wrote:

What has become of Sandpoint and Kaer Maga?

Sandpoint was most recently updated in the Sandpoint book a fairly recent Campaign Setting book, and the lore still stands. Kaer Maga is as weird as ever.

I’m very glad to hear this! I love the Sandpoint book. But still waiting on my Kaer Maga box set with 3D map. :)

Yeah no that is a massive stereotype. Also blonde hair occurs all over the world including the Polynesians. So you’re not exactly accurate with your info.

I thought the blond characters in Taldor, Cheliax, or Andoran actually have Ulfen ancestors. But if the real world Polynesians have blond as well, then maybe those blond Southern Avistanis have nothing to do with Ulfen, right?

Yeah no that is a massive stereotype. Also blonde hair occurs all over the world including the Polynesians. So you’re not exactly accurate with your info.

Yeaaaaah. Wikipedia has lot of examples, its apparently also common with berbers from north africa, can be found in any region of asia and oceania as you already pointed out.

Its most common in scandinavia, but its not universal in nordic countries nor 100% of population :p

I...........what? Ulfen are also predisposed to being Lycanthropes, and Chels can have read hair from trucking with Devils I don’t follow your logic

Yeah no that is a massive stereotype. Also blonde hair occurs all over the world including the Polynesians. So you’re not exactly accurate with your info.

And Melanesians, and some Amazigh (AKA Berbers), et cetera. I don't think any hair color can be unambiguously traced to any specific location.

EDIT: Ninja'd about blond hair occurring with Amazigh people

zimmerwald1915 wrote:

Kroft doesn't seem given to that kind of wileyness. Nor does she have many cards to play.

She does, presumably, have a party of quite high level adventurers as allies. That is a pretty impressive hand :-)

Not only does Kroft have a party of 17th level adenturers as allies, she does have cards to play, with them, at least. In CotCT, those PCs end up with their own Deck of Many Things!

If you really want to talk about blonde hair and race, start a new thread. This isn't the place for that.

Well, if “good is winning “ (because it’s assumed that parties succeed in the various APs), let’s look at the other side of things-

The Whispering Tyrant is back, large and in charge, forcing the entire region to adapt to his presence.

Yeah, Sorshen’s nice enough, but she has Belimarius to deal with, so while New Thassilon has some promise, it also has internal squabbling.

Irrisen may suck less, but that doesn’t mean the neighbors trust it- especially since Linnorm Kings aren’t exactly required to be nice. In fact, if the right (or wrong) Linnorm Kings or the Mammoth Lords decide that Anastasia’s relative benevolence is a sign of weakness, they may well attack here and there.

Korvosa is free of Ileosa, but not the damage she did- not just to the people and infrastructure of the city, but to the “idea” of Korvosa itself.

The orcs of Belkzen might have their eyes on the new undead threat, but that doesn’t make them good or nice.

The Mammoth Lords no longer have an active Worldwound to contend with- which is a good thing- but Sarkoris is still a dangerous wasteland, and the Mammoth Lords themselves run the gamut of motivations.

If the PCs of the past decade have made things better, that hardly means everything is hunky-dory.

And to add to these:

The good elemental lords have been freed, which means that there's almost certainly going to be a throwdown, and since an organization of mortals from Golarion were involved in said release...

Cheliax is arguably in a better position now than it was at the start of the game. Ravounel was its most troublesome province, but it is now no longer its concern. Westcrown was a lesser headache, but the city has been brought to heel. House Thrune and the Church of Asmodeus got a kick in their complacency, so ambitious Thrunes are going to be less likely to, say, risk an entire armada in a power play. The Glorious Reclamation failed badly, severely damaging the Church of Iomedae and removing the Thrune's most dangerous internal enemies. Any neighbours who would wish to take advantage of their temporary weakness are distracted by the greater threat to the north, allowing them to rebuild unimpeded. The devils will still be quiet for a few years, but there will be trouble after that.

Geb has taken a more direct hand in running his country now. This development probably won't affect Avistan much, but we are long overdue for some Garund content. Then there's Arazni herself. If she survived the TG AP, we'll definitely see her again. Ideally in an AP centred around helping her free herself once and for all.

Speaking of Garund, the fall of Usaro opens up a power vacuum. It's entirely possible that Ruthazek will be succeeded by someone or something even more dangerous.

Speaking of power vacuums, one demon lord has ascended (in multiple ways), and one or two more may well be dead, and mortals from Golarion were involved each time. That's going to have ramifications going forward.

Vidrian is free! ... but it has few allies, and no protection from the Shackles.

Eutropia's rise is a big deal, but she will still have enemies within and without to keep the Lion Blades busy. Including a Daemonic Harbinger who has no longer has a pact holding him back.

The Technic League's grasp has been loosened, and Unity is dead. There's nothing controlling Starmount! ... there's nothing controlling Starmount?!?

And these are just off the top of my head, and don't include the possibility that the Pathfinders or the Aspis will inadvertently waken some buried horror. Or the possibility that Rovagug will spit out a little sib for the tarrasque. Or the possibility that some lost children of Azlant will descend from the stars.

...Eutropia's rise is a big deal, but she will still have enemies within and without to keep the Lion Blades busy. Including a Daemonic Harbinger who has no longer has a pact holding him back.

<snip>

?!

Which one, if I may ask?
(I don't have that AP, so...)

You can answer under a spoiler tag if you feel it's necessary.

Please & thank you!

--C.

Okay, if some people can finally stop generalizing about blond hair, contradicting the devs, praising conservatism, hating on secessionism and elves, etc... ;P

I'm very interested in the Runescarred archetype. Would it be possible to get a little inkling about it? I mean, we know about a lot of the archetypes in the other meta-regions (magic warriors, living obelisks, Pathfinder agents, Red Mantis assassins etc) but this one is very mysterious.

I ask b/c I'm readying a P2 conversion of RotR and one character would probably be the typical Varisian tattooed sorceress. Maybe we can use this archetype? Or maybe there's a background for that?

Of course I know time marches on and the situation in Varisia has changed enormously since that august, venerable AP, but I'm trying to get a feel for how much I'll be able to use in that conversion and what instead will work only in Age of Ashes...

Sorry to bother you, and thanks in any case ^___^

And to add to these:

The good elemental lords have been freed, which means that there's almost certainly going to be a throwdown, and since an organization of mortals from Golarion were involved in said release...

And I did not know about that. Where did that happen?

Evan Tarlton wrote:

And to add to these:

The good elemental lords have been freed, which means that there's almost certainly going to be a throwdown, and since an organization of mortals from Golarion were involved in said release...

And I did not know about that. Where did that happen?

I know at least one was freed in PFS, they might have freed the others.

SOLDIER-1st wrote:

Evan Tarlton wrote:

And to add to these:

The good elemental lords have been freed, which means that there's almost certainly going to be a throwdown, and since an organization of mortals from Golarion were involved in said release...

And I did not know about that. Where did that happen?

I know at least one was freed in PFS, they might have freed the others.

It is not impossible that I missed a meeting and need to reread the World Guide ASAP, but last I checked there was only one good elemental lord free (Ranginori, the Duke of Thunder). It probably would be a bit of a priority for him to start looking for his counterparts though; they all lost to their evil peers pretty decisively when the tables were balanced, so while the Duke of Thunder can certainly shake up the existing power dynamic he's going to need backup if he doesn't want to find himself stuffed back in an opal.

zimmerwald1915 wrote:

Kroft doesn't seem given to that kind of wileyness. Nor does she have many cards to play.

She does, presumably, have a party of quite high level adventurers as allies. That is a pretty impressive hand :-)

The same is true of everybody - or nobody. In any event, former PCs ought to be discounted.

One card Croft does have is a surprisingly good (for a Korvosan) relationship with the local Shoanti quahs, including the influential Sun and Bones quahs. That will make a difference in gaining the western quahs as allies in containing expansionist Magnimar. She could also play guarantor to places like Ilsurian and Sipplerose, if they haven't been subsumed. Korvosa's geostrategic priorities must include preventing Magnimar from controlling the whole Shimmerglen River.

With Korvosa in decline, the major competition on the North Tack will be between Magnimaran and Ravounal (sic.) traders. Korvosa could play kingmaker in their inevitable trade war. Relatedly, Korvosa controls the money supply, with its Bank of Abadar coining currency that's universally accepted on the North Tack. Neither Kintargo (whose coin until recently was minted in Cheliax) nor Magnimar (which uses Korvosan coin) can say as much. Both competitors could try to change that - Kintargo at least has a temple of Abadar and also a near-defunct secular central bank/mint that it could reactivate - but merchants will take a while to adapt.

Korvosa also controls the iron trade with Janderhoff and the Bloodsworn Vale route to Nirmathas, though both might be disrupted by Oprak. Also potentially disruptive to the iron industry: Korvosan's underground trade unionists working on raw and half-finished goods in Korvosa and Palin's Cove. Magnimar, with its promotion of guilds, and Ravounel's SRs with their promotion of free labor, could both gain potential allies in internal Korvosan politics by capitalizing on their struggle for recognition. The SRs are also supposedly allies with one company of liberal Grey Maidens whose name I forget. So Croft has internal political troubles to worry about.

Too many things in the updated setting seem to be like "good is winning".

If it makes you feel better, my Sylph Sorcerer, who is a follower of Set (the Osirian god of darkness, deserts, murder, storms), will be joining the Decemvirate in the not too distant future.

Order of the Rose, which are NG and are more focused on healing and helping the injured then being a problem for the woman that helped free them from brainwashed servitude to the as my players call her, “The Bloody Red B*%*!.”