Forging the Heroes of Undarin

I am assuming that these Heritages - IF they are in the final book; these are effectively placeholders - will absolutely have their canon names in the final book.

My impression was that they were given generic names so that lore arguments don't get in the way of mechanics arguments, which Paizo seems more focused on at the moment. I can't imagine the names will stay that terrible in the CRB, especially with the playtest already mentioning Golarion ethnicities by name.

I am assuming that these Heritages - IF they are in the final book; these are effectively placeholders - will absolutely have their canon names in the final book.

My impression was that they were given generic names so that lore arguments don't get in the way of mechanics arguments, which Paizo seems more focused on at the moment. I can't imagine the names will stay that terrible in the CRB, especially with the playtest already mentioning Golarion ethnicities by name.

You may be on to something.

I used Bastards of Golarion as an example of something that could not be reproduced with the original ancestry system. Now, every half-elf or half-orc subrace in that Player Companion could potentially be represented by some combination of the appropriate heritage with a suitable ancestry feat (perhaps throwing in an ethnicity for access to unusual languages or equipment). So, while there may be flaws in the details, the overall structure of the ancestry revision seems to be sound. I am finding far fewer PF1 character builds that fall one feat short of where they need to be at 1st level.

My idea for the ancestry problem would be to break it into three parts.

Species (sub-species/Ethnicity): physiological traits based on parents (senses, size, resistances/weaknesses, stat/skill mods, misc abilities). So human (Varisian) or elf (Ekujae) or whatever.

Cultural background: learned abilities based on upbringing (starting language(s), proficiencies, stat/skill modifiers, misc abilities). This would be based largely on your parents/how you were raised.

Societal background: physiological traits and learned abilities based on area lived in (starting language(s), proficiencies, resistances/weaknesses, stat/skill mods, misc abilities). This is separated from Cultural background mostly to cover cases where you might have been raised by elves from Kyonin but you still live in the Mwangi Jungle or some other non-native place. This is where all the climate based modifiers would be.

Each area slightly overlaps with the area beneath it, but not by necessity. So you can have all three be harmonious (ie. a human (Varisian) that was raised by human (Varisian)s in Ustalav), or you can have only two of them be harmonious (ie. a human (Varisian) that was raised by human (Varisian)s in Katapesh), or you can have none of them be harmonious (ie. a human (Varisian) that was raised by dwarf (Pahmet)s in Irrisen), and get distinct mechanical benefits for each aspect.

But there isn't really any canon group of Darklands Elves aside from Jinin (or Drow who don't need this mechanic themselves).

Well, I figure you don't want to write yourself into a corner from having a future writer deciding there is yet another kind of Darklands elf somewhere on Golarion (perhaps in Arcadia or Sarusan) so having a catch all for "these people's societies spent a bunch of time underground" then defining the difference between Drow and Jinin and whatever hypothetical third group via ancestry feats which represent culture should probably work.

Or however you plan to eventually tie game mechanics to "I was raised in the Ulfen/Shoanti/Vudrani/Osironi/etc. culture."

But I definitely agree with you that Darkvision has an oversized appeal relative to everything else a heritage could give you, so we're going to see a disproportionate number of gnomes who are Svirfneblin, for example, which is probably not especially desirable. Like Humans have "I'm sacrificing a general feat or two skill increases to be a half-elf/orc" which is a meaningful tradeoff but much less punitive than it used to be. But for Elves and Gnomes the tradeoff is "Darkvision" versus Cold Resistance, Keen Hearing, Good at Climbing, a bonus ancestry feat, a cantrip, or Keen Smelling. I figure this does a disservice to the setting in how relatively rare Darklands folk should be on the surface.

I like the direction, but heritages feel very barebones.

Well, I figure you don't want to write yourself into a corner from having a future writer deciding there is yet another kind of Darklands elf somewhere on Golarion (perhaps in Arcadia or Sarusan) so having a catch all for "these people's societies spent a bunch of time underground" then defining the difference between Drow and Jinin and whatever hypothetical third group via ancestry feats which represent culture should probably work.

But I definitely agree with you that Darkvision has an oversized appeal relative to everything else a heritage could give you, so we're going to see a disproportionate number of gnomes who are Svirfneblin, for example, which is probably not especially desirable. ... I figure this does a disservice to the setting in how relatively rare Darklands folk should be on the surface.

I actually think I was the first to write "Darklander Elf" as preferable option "if Jinin was too specific" (in other 1.4 thread), but I've come to feel both options are similarly problematic... CRB isnt' about Tian Xia or Darklands, so whatever you call it will always tend to be about exploiting Darkvision while undercutting actual unique cultural context.

At this point, I think Svrirfneblin and Cave Elf should just be removed from CRB.
If Jinin is later substantiated in Tian Xia product, that would be potential option, although players would simultaneously be given enough info to plausibly roleplay them AND if they want to use them in Inner Sea game, I could see them having to acquire extra language for Common proficiency which would be SOME balance against everybody wanting Darkvision.
Svirfneblin similarly should really have much more specific treatment appropriate to their particularity, which I think CAN be viable player option, but again probably belongs in some Darklands product or something which would substantiate their culture etc.

Jungle Elf (while less mechanically cheese-bait) does have similar setting flavor concerns, given that really is referring to specific Mwangi Elven tribes, albeit unlike Jinin, Mwangi IS in "Greater Inner Sea"... BUT, if you ignore the name, it's actually 100% usable by "normal" temperate forest Elven ranger types. I think it's much better to give it 100% neutral name like "Nature's Guide" and assume both (Mwangi) Wild Elves and "normal" Elves will take it... Because even if Wild Elves are given decent treatment in CRB setting info, I'd prefer not to see all "Elven Ranger" types suddenly become Ekujae. :-)

The Arctic Elves and Desert Dwarves are salveagable IMHO. They give benefits that are most useful to people in those climates, not something universally useful like Darkvision. Both of the real ethnic groups they point to are also in "Greater Inner Sea" (albeit barely so for Snowcasters who are more about Crown of World, but they're also in Irrisen, Linnorn lands, and it's not like huge #s of "normal" Elves live outside of Kyonin anyways). I do think the naming should openly reflect these groups (which then implies necessity to describe them, but that seems reasonable if wanting to cover variety of Elves/Dwarves in Greater Inner Sea). The actual mechanics (1/2 Level Resist) seem a bit much (and really, +X to Saves can be better for resisting Rider effects and could also apply to e.g. Survival/Nature in that climate) but the concept seems viable.

So, Snowcasters would be clearer name than "Arctic Elves". "Desert Dwarves" is a bit vague, although actually has been canon term... It covers Pahmet "Sand Dwarves" (hardly difference vs "Desert"), Shattered Range Dwarves including Alkenstar & Mana Wastes and Mbeki (now living in Mwangi jungle), although separately the Taralu living in Mwangi jungle could also plausibly use Fire-resistance/etc vs hot weather. So in that case, I think dropping "Desert Dwarf" for Hotlander or Southlander is more setting appropriate, since not all these live in literal Desert. These groups were already plausible normal choices for Elven and Dwarven characters in Greater Inner Sea (more so for Garundi Dwarves, but...) so introducing "ethnicity" tied mechanic for them in CRB seems fine IMHO.

I think ethnicity tied to heritage has its share of problems, since we want, say, a Vudrani who is raised in an Ulfen community to have picked up the Ulfen talent for insults, their sense of honor, and who learned how to fight in a formation with a shield rather than the things they would have picked up in Vudra. So a whole lot of that stuff has to be cultural.

Sure, although I think Paizo can treat these Demi-Human "ethnicities" or sub-groups as more "physiologically" varied than Human ethnicities.
Saying one has "Vudrani" family background and physical appearance doesn't mean one needs any mechanical substantiation of that (unique mechanics), that character could just have Ulfen ethnicity due to upbringing (perhaps grabbing Vudrani language by some means, Multilingual Feat if necessary, to represent family heritage). EDIT: I think that approach is better fitting Paizo's comfort level with this topic that obviously intersects real human relations, and also keeps things simpler rather than having whole separate sub-tier of mechanics for most populace and most diverse in # of ethnicities species, Humans.

I think I realized what I dislike most about Unburdened being a heritage: Unburdened, being a heritage feat and thus having a high opportunity cost is worse than Nimble a level 1 ancestry feat for a different ancestry, since the former gives +5 speed in specific situations and the latter gives +5 speed in any situation. I feel like this is deeply unsatisfying. Sure elves are supposed to be fast but Dwarves are supposed to be steady.

If Unburdened is going to stay a heritage instead of just being shuffled off as an ancestry feat, it should be "ignore all encumbrance" like it was in PF1.

Yeah, well Nimble is too good. Fleet exists.
If Nimble is to exist, Elf base speed should be 25, and Nimble BE an exclusive Heritage.
(which is also 'solving problem' of lack of variety of 'normal Elf concept' Heritages)
Unburdened should do other stuff too, like reduce ACP and increase Bulk capacity.
(right now you're still encumbered at same Load just less speed penalty)

It's likewise unsatisfying to be able to have a character who moves at 10' speed because they put on plate mail. Like that's unplayably slow, considering how Elves can hit 40' speed with 2 feats (so they will move 30' in the same plate mail.)

So setting it up so a Dwarf character who wants to wear heavy armor *must* choose a specific heritage is a problem. No other ancestry has a heritage as strongly suggested for a class and equipment combination.

If Unburdened is going to stay a heritage instead of just being shuffled off as an ancestry feat, it should be "ignore all encumbrance" like it was in PF1.

Agreed. This opens up a lot of fun characters. The Dwarf Alchemist carting a lab around, the Dwarf Ranger loaded up with Snares, the Dwarf Monk carrying incredible loads, etc.

Yeah, but that's like complaining you need Cave Elf to play an Elf running around Darklands.
If you're a Dwarf you wants to wear Heavy Armor, you have great (well, improvable) Heritage option for that.
Even without Unburdened you can take Fleet, and if you take both you are better off than Heavy Armor Human without Fleet.
(and if it's improved, possibly like mine and many others' suggestions, you would have further benefits)

The other Heritages are very solid atop the Dwarf chassis, and if somebody with those decides
maybe they shouldn't wear Heavy armor I don't see the problem, they wil be getting the benefits they chose.
(EDIT: as well as the universally acclaimed Darkvision built into race chassis, so don't cry for the Dwarves please)

Now that only leaves the problem of Slow speed itself, which Dwarf has been stuck with uniquely now,
and I think that is unjust and Smalls should be in same boat AND Elves should NOT be so Speed unbalanced.
I think having specific Speed/Nimble Heritage for Elves would much reduce amount of very fast elves
(albeit it would be popular Heritage, but not universal) and would avoid the 30' base + Nimble Feat + potential Fleet.
If others (Smalls) are in same boat with speed, it's hard to say just having 20' speed not wearing heaving armor is horrible.
(20:25 is HIGHER ratio than 3.x's 20:30 by significant margin, it shouldn't be intolerable, and you CAN take Fleet or get into Mounted combat Fly etc)

Charon Onozuka wrote:

First Reactions:

Dislike Cavern Elf. I had a problem with how common Darkvision was among player races in PF1 and am not excited to see that return.

No Drow Heritage? I foresee some people being disappointed by this.

Reading between the lines "Cavern Elf" is Drow Heritage.

I could easily see Drow feats being printed to give them their classic levitate/faerie fire stuff with "Cavern Elf ancestry" as a prerequisite.

It's interesting that they didn't explicitly name "Cavern Elf" Drow, while calling Bleachling Gnomes by their name.

I just think they express a sort of professional courtesy toward WotC, (since drow are one of their mascots and cashing cows) by avoiding them as much as they can, within reason. Especially, since they'va called the deep gnome "svirfneblin".

Regardless, I agree, just call it drow heritage, for gods' sake. The world won't end. Actually, I'd be happy, if similar to the inclusion of goblins in the corebook, it'd mean we'll see drow exploring the surface more and more encounters with them and more opportunities to play them and not feeling totally out of the picture.

Otherwise, yeah, this errata is definitely a step in the right direction!

Did they said anything anywhere about human ethnicities being heritages, gaining feats of their own, or something like that?

Removed some posts and replies:
The term "half-breed" has some pretty negative real world connotations, so please find another way to talk about half-elves and half-orcs, etc.
There is no need to start swearing and even though we have a swear filter that "masks" the words, it really escalates the conversation dramatically in a way that is not helpful. If you want your post's text back to try again toning down the aggressiveness, please email community at paizo.com.
While calling something "garbage" is currently trendy, it's an insult and something we aren't interested in on our forums. Our community on paizo.com consists of both fans and content creators and posting insults is not conducive to a atmosphere that is safe and encouraging for everyone to participate in.

Apologies for how long it took me to edit the formatting errors out of that post!

I think I have 4 characters who were broken by 1.4, all of them Dwarves wearing Medium armor who chose Hardy as heritage feat. I guess "poison resistance" is icing on the cake, but it kind of stings.

I think I have 4 characters who were broken by 1.4, all of them Dwarves wearing Medium armor who chose Hardy as heritage feat. I guess "poison resistance" is icing on the cake, but it kind of stings.

Yeah. The two Dwarf Barbarians in my group are in similar straits. I'm hopeful that the current revision was due to rushing out the Update and will see some changes before landing in the final version.

I'm a big fan of the 1.4 changes as a general concept, but the more I consider it the more adjusting a few of them does seem necessary going forward.

Most notably, Unburdened + Hardy does seem like a thing that should be available, and Unburdened is pretty weak as-is. And making the environmental stuff generic Heritages available to any Ancestry seems like it'd save space and generally make more sense. Darkvision is also a bit over-available, it seems to me. I don't think it's as overpowered or required as some other people seem to be saying, but I also don't see it as a necessary option for Elves or Gnomes...

Also, many of the names are pretty bad.

Honestly, I wish the "removed some posts and replies" posts would specify whose posts they removed...
I feel obligated to check if any of mine were if I had happened to swear or something. (they weren't... I have SUCH good manners)
I feel like it's also some basic accountability for people wanting to participate in communal discussion,
for their personal behavior which merited strong intervention to simply be erased seems dis-service to community.

I feel like it's also some basic accountability for people wanting to participate in communal discussion,

for their personal behavior which merited strong intervention to simply be erased seems dis-service to community.

There are a few problems with this idea. Most notably, it's a lot of extra work for the mods. I mean, with the way things currently work, they remove a post and also get everyone who quoted it, which neatly ends that conversational tangent without having to figure out where to put the blame.

Also, it seems likely to tend to start conflicts and create bad feelings more than end them and keep things civil (since you know people would start calling out anyone who'd had posts removed...and calling people out on that is not usually gonna be productive or lead to good discussion). Public shaming is just not a very good or useful thing in this context, IMO.

Well, I'm happy for repeat offenders to be banned, and then everybody usually forgets them, but YMMV.
I really did have a moment of worrying I was potentially guilty though... (for swearing I mean, I don't keep track of that)

This is definitely a big step in the right direction.

However, some things like most half orcs suddenly not having darkvision by default and randomly gaining it when they take a feat at any level are still just bizzare and need to be changed.

Honestly the latter is much more of an issue than the former. I could accept most half orcs being 2nd generation or so and not having dark vision now. But randomly gaining darkvision from your race on level up just doesn't make sense.

I have the same sort of feedback as others. Overall, big picture, I'm happy with the direction of the 1.4 changes, and see this as a significant improvement.
Thoughts:
Perhaps Half-Elves and Half-Orcs should get their languages, though now that I think about it, i'm not as sure. Low light vision seems not as useful as some of the other heritage benefits.
Names need to change, just like everyone else is saying.
Perhaps the "base" gnome could get another benefit, so that not everyone will be playing Deep Gnomes. (Both my PF1 gnomes took the racial substitution to get Darkvision instead of the +2 to Perception).

However, some things like most half orcs suddenly not having darkvision by default and randomly gaining it when they take a feat at any level are still just bizzare and need to be changed.

I'm imagining Half-Orcs get their darkvision via going into the woods and completing mysterious rituals like in that UPN series "the Sentinel" (I wasn't the only person who watched that, right?)

Removed some posts and replies:

The term "half-breed" has some pretty negative real world connotations, so please find another way to talk about half-elves and half-orcs, etc.

I understand but Paizo's own PRD uses the term to refer to half-orcs. Maybe thats where folks got it from? I guess maybe go with half-blood then?

I really think the inescapable conclusion is Low Light Vision needs to offer stronger benefit. I think it's benefit in negating Stealth in Dim Light is a serious one, but it still doesn't seem substantial enough, Stealth isn't the entire game.

An obvious area to change is making Dim Light more penalizing to non-LLV in terms of max sight distance (where even normal lighting is massively permissive compared to 3.x/P1E distance modifiers). Making non-LLV be able to see substantially less far IS kind of big deal, and maybe they get less info too?

I had some ideas that even in bright light, if the distance is far enough, you won't get full ID, you would get something more like "a figure is there, but you can't tell who/what, or what they are doing" (like Sensed). If they are in Dim Light and you lack LLV (or looking thru Fog/Smoke etc imposing Concealment) then range to get info is reduced, both for getting "full" info, some info (ala Sensed), and the cut-off distance to see anything at all is also reduced. This gives LLV characters better info/awareness in spectrum of situations that makes them feel valuable.

That approach also allows Concealed/Sensed* categories to be relevant outside of Fog/Dim Light, but become generalized Perception tier which is invoked by combination of Fog/DimLight/etc AND Distance, with both factors interacting to increase Concealment/decrease vision distance. In fact, Fog AND Dim Light together should be able to similarly interact together for non-LLV characters, that's just realistic Dim Light makes Fog even harder to see thru. This also implies Bright Light could be a more relevant condition (for non-Light-Sensitives) in that it could allow avoiding a potential Perception Tier degradation that normal Light would allow due to distance (probably not Fog/Smoke). Then all these are supply integrated into the game, and character abilities and environment are all extra relevant.

* I don't like Sensed's name, and it's description "You know what space creature occupies... but can't determine exact location" is highly confusing (although latter's intention is probably better worded as "can't determine it's posture or activities")

Making low light vision useful just requires some more low light instances. Add a low light radius to light sources and thats all you need to give it some actual utility,

Making low light vision useful just requires some more low light instances. Add a low light radius to light sources and thats all you need to give it some actual utility,

I don't think that's enough, although I don't oppose doing something there. You can walk around in Moonlight with Dim Light everywhere, but non-LLV characters can still see everything they could normally, just with Miss Chance. Even in P1E they had a minor -2 modifier, because Dim Light has become NOTHING but cheapest Stealth enabler & Miss Chance. If LLV is a real category of sensation like Darkvision, or Echolocation, it should actually have distinct role in terms of things you can see that others can't. Torches are fine to address, but the vast majority of area in Dim Lighting is natural Dim Light under Moon etc. LLV needs to have distinct niche there in terms of actually seeing stuff that others can't. Otherwise it's not a real sensory category, it's just conditional Concealment bypass.

My biggest thing really comes down to feeling that the heritages were quickly thrown together using all the heritage feats, rather than designed the heritages around broader concept from scratch. I am also not sure it's completely fufilling the demands for more ancestry feats to provide flavor to races. Yeah, you get an extra "feat" basically, but you get stuck taking a heritage and a regular. You can't take two heritages, or two regular feats, so options are still limited.

Sara Marie wrote:

Removed some posts and replies:

The term "half-breed" has some pretty negative real world connotations, so please find another way to talk about half-elves and half-orcs, etc.

I understand but Paizo's own PRD uses the term to refer to half-orcs. Maybe thats where folks got it from? I guess maybe go with half-blood then?

It's a term also used MULTIPLE times in the inner sea races book to refer to 1/2 orcs so I'm unsurprised people would use Paizo's own words to refer to them that way. That book was printed just 3 years ago so it's not like it happened a long time ago...

PS: Bastards of Golarion also uses the term 4-5 times to refer to partial human's. It also comes up 5 times in the official online resource, the archives of nethys. [NPC codex x2, blood of shadows x2 [March 2016], ARG]. So in a quick look, we have maybe a dozen or 2 instances of Pathfinder's continued use of it.

Data Lore wrote:

Sara Marie wrote:

Removed some posts and replies:

The term "half-breed" has some pretty negative real world connotations, so please find another way to talk about half-elves and half-orcs, etc.

I understand but Paizo's own PRD uses the term to refer to half-orcs. Maybe thats where folks got it from? I guess maybe go with half-blood then?

It's a term also used MULTIPLE times in the inner sea races book to refer to 1/2 orcs so I'm unsurprised people would use Paizo's own words to refer to them that way. That book was printed just 3 years ago so it's not like it happened a long time ago...

PS: Bastards of Golarion also uses the term 4-5 times to refer to partial human's. It also comes up 5 times in the official online resource, the archives of nethys. [NPC codex x2, blood of shadows x2 [March 2016], ARG]. So in a quick look, we have maybe a dozen or 2 instances of Pathfinder's continued use of it.

I mean isn't the term suppose to bring out negative connotations lore wise? Elves see Half-elves in disdain and while Humans I think are more accepting of them they still see them was strange. If anything why not go the full hog and make the Half-elf/orc a heritage that any race can apply. Now you can be a Halfling Half-elf. A Quarter-elf?

Vic Ferrari wrote:

Not really, I know they are infusing more Golarion into the CRB, but PF1 is a game, like D&D, to tell stories in many worlds. Apparently, the majority of people prefer home-brew worlds.

"D&D did it" is still bad argument, even if you are right.

Not at all, and I never said "D&D did it", I was just musing on past environmental variants for races (ancestries). D&D and PF1 are not these wildly different games. Now, as the Playtest is very different, maybe now is the time to sever all ties to D&D and only advocate for play in Golarion.

Thanks for the note about the usages of half-breed. Let's not derail this thread further, however I appreciate the heads up. As far as our forums go, let's try to steer away from this term.

I’m pretty happy with this update because it supports a more substantial base. It’s much easier for them to bake in something like a skinwalker or kitsune’s shapeshifting. With high-level feats, a magical tail feat chain is possible.

It’s also nice to have distinctive elves. In PF1, they never really stood out much to me.

If folks like the direction, we will continue to explore its full implementation.

Thanks for clarifying. This is definitely a step in the right direction, in my opinion, but I think Heritage needs to be much stronger. I'll provide more feedback as I roll Update 1.4 to my playtest groups but my immediate thoughts are...

--o Distribution: This is good. I like Heritage plus Ancestry feat at first level.
--o Flavor: Mixed. Gnomes got it right.
--o Heritage Impact: Needs more impact. Two or three traits is right, not one.
--o Ancestry Feats: I'm okay with the direction this is going in. Lots of minor tweaks.
--o Independent Heritages: Dhampire, Planetouched, etc. Would be nice to test out Ancestry independent Heritages in the playtest.

...to bring us back to topics that actually help the playtest:

Heroe of Undarin!

1) Why can there only be one character of each race? I understand wanting a sample of many races, but I figure sample size is already enough for that, and this module doesn't give extra reason to diversify. No class duplication makes sense, since it makes very odd party mechanics.

2)

--o Independent Heritages: Dhampire, Planetouched, etc. Would be nice to test out Ancestry independent Heritages in the playtest.

If they do explore such an implementation, they would need to consider the problem of the "half-elf dhampire.' If half-elf is a heritage and dhampire is a heritage, does that mean half-elves may never be dhampires?

2) ** spoiler omitted **

One of my DD groups is actually really pumped up for it and has been since the concept was introduced. I think they tend to be more wargaming oriented (not power gamers but strategists) but, in general, the four groups (two DD, one RSR, one homebrew) I have running the playtest are really digging combat so...

I'm probably going to skip it with my other DD group just due to scheduling and trying to keep up. They're more into the social situations so I really want to get them to Red Flags.

If they do explore such an implementation, they would need to consider the problem of the "half-elf dhampire.' If half-elf is a heritage and dhampire is a heritage, does that mean half-elves may never be dhampires?

Absolutely. I noticed that in my Update 1.4 Overhaul thread but didn't get to proposing a workaround.