Learning Takes a Lifetime

Monday, June 04, 2018

While the kind of armor you wear, weapon you wield, and spells you know can be important measures of your character's power, your choice in skills is indicative of your character's depth. Is your character good at feats of acrobatics? Can they recall knowledge with scholastic effortlessness? Are they the sneakiest sneaker in the sneakerverse? Your skills may aid you in the thick of a fight, but they also enhance your effect on the world when the ringing of steel and the whizzing of spells subside.

The Pathfinder Playtest deals with skills a bit differently than the first edition did. First and foremost, we have cut down the skill list to 17 base skills (down from 35 base skills in Pathfinder First Edition). Now, I say "base skills" because the Lore skill can be split into numerous different lores, but for many purposes, like for this blog post, we can describe it as being a single skill.

Much of the reduction came from consolidation; for instance, we put the general functions of Use Magic Device into each of the various knowledge skills that focus on magical traditions, and we wrapped up a bunch of Strength-based skills into a general Athletics skill. In most cases, we coupled the consolidation with being a tad more generous in the number of skills you can be trained in (for instance, the fighter has 3 + Intelligence modifier trained skills in the playtest rather than 2 + Int in Pathfinder First Edition), making it easier to have a well-rounded character.

So what exactly are these 17 skills? They (and their key ability scores) are: Acrobatics (Dex), Arcana (Int), Athletics (Str), Crafting (Int), Deception (Cha), Diplomacy (Cha), Intimidation (Cha), Lore (Int), Medicine (Wis), Nature (Wis), Occultism (Int), Performance (Cha), Religion (Wis), Society (Int), Stealth (Dex), Survival (Wis), and Thievery (Dex).

Skill Proficiency

Like many things in the Pathfinder Playtest, skills interact with the proficiency system. While a detailed description of the system can be found here, here's the nitty-gritty. Your character can be untrained, trained, an expert, a master, or legendary in a skill. Being untrained grants you a modifier of your level - 2, while being trained grants you a bonus equal to your level, expert a bonus equal to your level + 1, master a bonus equal to your level + 2, and legendary a bonus equal to your level + 3. Then, of course, you add your ability modifier in the key ability for that skill, and apply any other bonuses or penalties. But the new skill system is more than just the bonus you gain. Each level of proficiency unlocks skill uses that are either intrinsic to the skill itself or that are uses you select as your character advances.

Skill Uses

To give you an idea of what this means, let's take a quick look at the Medicine skill. Whether you are trained in Medicine or not, you can Administer First Aid.

[[A]] Administer First Aid

Manipulate

Requirements You must have healer's tools.

You perform first aid on an adjacent creature that is at 0 Hit Points in an attempt to stabilize or revive it. You can also perform first aid on an adjacent creature taking persistent bleed damage. The DC for either is 15. If a creature is both dying and bleeding, choose which one you're trying to end before you roll. You can Administer First Aid again to attempt to remedy the other.

Success The creature at 0 Hit Points gains 1 Hit Point, or you end the persistent bleed damage.

Critical Failure A creature with 0 Hit Points has its dying condition increased by 1. A creature with persistent bleed damage takes damage equal to the amount of its persistent bleed damage.

Basically, this skill use allows anyone who has a healing kit to treat another creature who is dying or suffering from bleed damage, which is super useful. Of course, being untrained reduces your chances to save your friend and increases your chances to hurt them accidentally, but it's worth trying in a pinch. If you are trained in the skill, not only do your chances to help a friend by Administering First Aid increase, but you also gain the ability to use the skill to Treat Disease and Treat Poison, something that someone untrained in the skill cannot do.

Skill Feats

These default uses are just the beginning. As you increase in level, you periodically gain skill feats, usually at even-numbered levels (unless you're a rogue—they gain skill feats every level instead). Skill feats are a subsection of general feats, which means that any character can take them as long as they meet the prerequisites. Moving forward with the example of the Medicine skill, as long as you are at least trained in Medicine, you can take the Battle Medic skill feat. This feat allows you to apply straight-up healing to an ally through nonmagical means, which is nice when your cleric is knocked to the ground or has run out of uses of channel energy.

For a higher-level example, Robust Recovery is a Medicine skill feat you can take after becoming an expert in that skill, and increases the bonus to saving throws against poison and diseases when you treat creatures with those trained skill uses. When you become legendary in Medicine, you can gain this skill feat:

Legendary Medic Feat 15

General, Skill

Prerequisites legendary in Medicine

You've invented new medical procedures or discovered ancient techniques that can achieve nearly miraculous results. Once per day for each target, you can spend 1 hour treating the target and attempt a Medicine check to remove a disease or the blinded, deafened, drained, or enervated condition. Use the DC of the disease or of the spell or effect that created the condition. If the effect's source is an artifact, a creature above 20th level, or other similarly powerful source, increase the DC by 5.

The more powerful or useful the skill feat, the higher the proficiency required to take it. Legendary Medic grants you the ability to perform amazing feats of healing through skill and experience rather than magic, but you must gain that skill and experience first. Of course, the Medicine skill is just the tip of the iceberg. This structure is replicated with every skill, including nearly every rogue's favorite—Stealth.

Stealth is a bit of an outlier in that all of its initial uses can be attempted untrained, but training and later proficiency in the skill yields some very subversive results. The Quiet Allies skill feat allows you to use your expertise in Stealth to reduce those pesky armor check penalties on allies' skill checks, while Swift Sneak allows a master in Stealth to move at their full speed when they Sneak. Upon becoming legendary, you further enhance your skill by no longer needing to specifically declare the sneaking exploration tactic when you are in exploration mode, allowing you to sneak everywhere. You're just that good.

But this is all just the start. Mark will take up more aspects of what you can do with skill feats this Friday!

Constant Progress

Like many aspects of the Pathfinder Playtest, the goal of skills is not only to gain the greatest bonus, but also for you to expand outward and create a unique character who uses skills the way you want them to be used. Much like how ancestry feats allow you to choose the type of human, dwarf, elf, or whatever you want to play, the proficiency and skill feat system will enable you to determine what kind of knowledgeable, athletic, or sneaky character you want to play. Over time, this system gives us the opportunity to add more skill uses by way of skill feats, which will allow the game to become more dynamic as we add options. This also allows you to continue to grow your skills in new and surprising ways without us having to pull out the wires of the underlying skill, which is something we are always loath to do. In this way, as the game progresses, we can expand skill options in an open-ended way, without invalidating the gateway mechanics.

Stephen Radney-MacFarland
Senior Designer

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thaX wrote:
Does ranks determine how proficient you are, or does one need to take a skill feat to become more proficient after becoming trained?

The way I understand it is that proficiency checks (ability+level+rank bonus) show how reliable your skills are. The higher your level, the more consistently you can do what you can do. The proficiency ranks determine what exactly it is that you can do.

A high level fighter is probably untrained in Arcana and Nature, but can still tell the difference between a devil and a demon and knows not to bother bringing silver to the World Wound.

It takes a character who has more proficiency ranks (through skill feats) to know what sort of demon is currently trying to claw their faces off and what special weaknesses that particular kind might have.


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Stone Dog wrote:
As much as I love Thievery as a skill name, the more I think about it the more I see the point of putting Disable Device back on the list and leave actual criminal activities to Thief Lore and various sorts of sleight of hand tricks to entertainer based Lores, Performance, and/or Deception.

One imagines you can use Perform for a Performance, even if it involves some sleight of hand. Disable Device specifically sounds like a thing you can only do with a skill feat, and we KNOW there's Pickpocket skill feat. If you have the basic training to do any of these tasks, your general manual dexterity improving will improve all of them.

Sovereign Court

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You gain skill ranks on odd levels to increase your skill proficiencies. You gain skill feats on even levels to let you do cool new things with your enhanced skills.


thaX wrote:

So, my initial confusion is with the skill "ranks" that are not mentioned as much as touched upon with this blog.

Rereading the other (linked) blog, you get ranks at first level and every odd level. (the Rogue looks like they get ranks at every level)

Here is my question. Does ranks determine how proficient you are, or does one need to take a skill feat to become more proficient after becoming trained?

You have 3 things concerning skills. You have skill proficiency (untrained, trained, expert etc.), your skill bonus (ability modifier + level + numerical bonus/penalty from proficiency + items (- armor check penalty)) and skill feats.

Skill feats basically lets you "specialize" or do extra special things in certain areas within each skill. We haven't seen if these could give numerical adjustments to your roll too, like items can (as far as I can remember), but some of the mentioned ones could indicate that.


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GentleGiant wrote:
Student of the Canon

I want a 'Student of the Cannon' feat. ;)

Scarab Sages

What is Ride folded under? Animal Lore? A feat? Athletics (which would make sense if it weren't just a Strength skill). I hope it's not Acrobatics, cause verisimilitude is important.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Kay, have two posters that say something...

Stone Dog wrote:
It takes a character who has more proficiency ranks (through skill feats) to know...
GentleGiant wrote:
You have skill proficiency (untrained, trained, expert etc.), your skill bonus (ability modifier + level + numerical bonus/penalty from proficiency + items (- armor check penalty)) and skill feats.

So, Stone Dog and GentleGaint. What does the actual Skill Ranks you get at first and odd levels actually do other than give another +1 to the skill?


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thaX wrote:

Kay, have two posters that say something...

Stone Dog wrote:
It takes a character who has more proficiency ranks (through skill feats) to know...
GentleGiant wrote:
You have skill proficiency (untrained, trained, expert etc.), your skill bonus (ability modifier + level + numerical bonus/penalty from proficiency + items (- armor check penalty)) and skill feats.
So, Stone Dog and GentleGaint. What does the actual Skill Ranks you get at first and odd levels actually do other than give another +1 to the skill?

It determines the number of skills you can raise from untrained to trained at first level. At later levels you can then elect to raise a trained skill to expert and later on to master and legendary (when you've reached the appropriate level).


Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
thaX wrote:

Kay, have two posters that say something...

Stone Dog wrote:
It takes a character who has more proficiency ranks (through skill feats) to know...
GentleGiant wrote:
You have skill proficiency (untrained, trained, expert etc.), your skill bonus (ability modifier + level + numerical bonus/penalty from proficiency + items (- armor check penalty)) and skill feats.
So, Stone Dog and GentleGaint. What does the actual Skill Ranks you get at first and odd levels actually do other than give another +1 to the skill?

It's been said a couple times now, but getting that increased skill rank unlocks additional tasks you can attempt using the skill, as well as what skill feats you can take. Some skill feats also get better at higher ranks, although I don't think we have examples of that yet.

This is all in addition to the +1 to the skill.


They give you greater depth of ability. Like the blog says for Medicine, even Untrained people can use a kit to Administer First Aid to stabilize a dying person. At first level, this might not be a good idea, a result of 4 or less makes things worse, not better.

If you have an improved Proficiency Rank and are Trained, you can Treat Disease and Treat Poison, but the Untrained person wouldn't even know where to start with that and so couldn't attempt the roll.


how many skills have a character at creation phase?


Hmmm, how does riding work in PF2E? In the case of mounted character i admit i have skipped out on those quite a bit in PF1, one exception was my horse archer hunter that i attempted one time.
Still what can we expect out of mounted character in this new edition?


I hope the ride and fly stuff gets a complete overhaul.

Liberty's Edge

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GentleGiant wrote:

Has anyone (besides the designers) tried to break down what numbers of each proficiency level it's possible to attain, for rogues and non-rogues separately, at its most basic level (i.e. without investing other ressources into skills)?

Obviously this would depend on starting intelligence too.
So, Int 10: X skills at Legendary, Y skills at Master, Z skills at Expert ...
Int : 14 X skills at Legendary, Y skills at Master, Z skills at Expert etc.

Nobody can do this since we don't know how many ranks you get at every odd level (beyond it being more than one). Especially for a Rogue (who get extra). Nor do we know if Int effects them (it adds to starting skills, but might well do absolutely nothing for number of skills thereafter).

Bardarok wrote:
42nfl19 wrote:
So where does Sense Motive lie in all this? Is it rolled under perception also?
That's the prevailing theory but no dev confirmation as of yet.

We do however have eyewitness testimony of it working this way in demo games.

Juda de Kerioth wrote:
how many skills have a character at creation phase?

Varies by Class, but everyone adds Int mod. Druids are 4+Int Mod.


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Hurká wrote:


In PF1 magic made many skills moot, so I believe that the pendulum needs to swing the other way. Legendary Medicine being able to raise the dead seems like swinging the pendulum too far in the other direction.

I don't think Medicine should be able to duplicate Raise Dead... At least not until the inevitable Mythic tier is eventually published. But as for Breath of Life? Reviving someone who has dropped within the last few minutes, rather than days or however long ago? Absolutely, yes this is the province of Medicine. Lesser versions of that aren't even legendary, I am trained in CPR myself, but legendary could and should certainly be able to resuscitate someone sworded to death as long as it's done quick.


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Short of spontaneous human combustion anyways.


Deadmanwalking wrote:
GentleGiant wrote:

Has anyone (besides the designers) tried to break down what numbers of each proficiency level it's possible to attain, for rogues and non-rogues separately, at its most basic level (i.e. without investing other ressources into skills)?

Obviously this would depend on starting intelligence too.
So, Int 10: X skills at Legendary, Y skills at Master, Z skills at Expert ...
Int : 14 X skills at Legendary, Y skills at Master, Z skills at Expert etc.
Nobody can do this since we don't know how many ranks you get at every odd level (beyond it being more than one). Especially for a Rogue (who get extra). Nor do we know if Int effects them (it adds to starting skills, but might well do absolutely nothing for number of skills thereafter).

I was thinking that we actually had been told about how many you get when every odd level, but clearly my up-way-too-late addled brain was mistaken.

Maybe after Friday we'll know...?


Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
KingOfAnything wrote:
Secane wrote:
Emeric Tusan wrote:
LeesusFreak wrote:
KitsuneWarlock wrote:
LeesusFreak wrote:
What happened to sense motive? What umbrella is it under?
If I had to guess, I'd say Deception.
Unless your Intimidation is your resistance to being intimidated, that doesn't seem continuous...
It is rolled in to perception or at least it was at Paizo con.

Perception is gone from the list above?

So the question is where does Sense Motive and Perception fall into now?

Perception isn't a skill, it is just something every character has.

IMO, Perception should be promoted to Ability Score with associated skills of Search, Notice and Examine.


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graystone wrote:
GentleGiant wrote:
Student of the Canon
I want a 'Student of the Cannon' feat. ;)

The Students of the Canon are at constant war with the Cult of the Headcanon. Just last week, the Students of the Canon had to embark on a journey through the ruins of The Great Shipping War just to stop the Cultists from performing the Ritual that would summon the dreaded “Highschool AU” onto Golarion!

Just imagine if they had failed . . .

“Seoni is running down the sidewalk with toast in her mouth. Dragon, her kawaii familiar, didn’t wake her up this morning and now she is late for her first day at Pathfinder Society High!

She bumps into someone and falls onto the ground, her toast nowhere to be seen. Who did she bump into? It’s . . . Valeros-sempai!”

. . . *shudders*


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I've always like Search and Notice for the finding things skills. In Fantasy Craft they had Search under INT for logical deduction of places things could be and Notice under WIS for they ability to process raw sensory input.


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ElSilverWind wrote:
graystone wrote:
GentleGiant wrote:
Student of the Canon
I want a 'Student of the Cannon' feat. ;)

The Students of the Canon are at constant war with the Cult of the Headcanon. Just last week, the Students of the Canon had to embark on a journey through the ruins of The Great Shipping War just to stop the Cultists from performing the Ritual that would summon the dreaded “Highschool AU” onto Golarion!

Just imagine if they had failed . . .

“Seoni is running down the sidewalk with toast in her mouth. Dragon, her kawaii familiar, didn’t wake her up this morning and now she is late for her first day at Pathfinder Society High!

She bumps into someone and falls onto the ground, her toast nowhere to be seen. Who did she bump into? It’s . . . Valeros-sempai!”

. . . *shudders*

I didn't know I wanted this in my life till just this moment. Bye guys! I'm joining a Cult to usher in the end of all things!

Silver Crusade

Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

So, skill points per level are gone the way of the dodo?

I'm still not sure I understand how to train skills at level up though.

I get that at level X, your bonus to skill Y is:

level + proficiency + ability mod + item bonus

Also, from the wording in the blogs, I get that a fighter is peaking his proficiency in 3+INT skills of his choice, and gets a skill feat every odd level.

So... Are there 'virtual skill points' you gain every level?

Like: it takes 1 vsp to be trained, 5 to be expert, 10 to be master, 15 to be legendary?

Liberty's Edge

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Lucas Yew wrote:
Not bad, the legendary feats are. But seriously, fighters and other non-casters should have above average skill points compared to casters; +1 compared to PF1 is a bit meh...

Why?

You are assuming that things are the same as PF1, while spells that mimic skills are been reduced to skill enhancers (not that most of them where so good in PF1) and there are less spell slots.
Fighter gets various weapon and armor proficiencies, wizards get a spellcasting proficiency and no armor proficiency.
Everyone get stat increases in multiple skills, so Int 8 fighters aren't common (and that was the player decision in PF1).
So, can you give a reason why fighters should get a large number of skill points?

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Franz Lunzer wrote:

So, skill points per level are gone the way of the dodo?

I'm still not sure I understand how to train skills at level up though.

I get that at level X, your bonus to skill Y is:

level + proficiency + ability mod + item bonus

Also, from the wording in the blogs, I get that a fighter is peaking his proficiency in 3+INT skills of his choice, and gets a skill feat every odd level.

So... Are there 'virtual skill points' you gain every level?

Like: it takes 1 vsp to be trained, 5 to be expert, 10 to be master, 15 to be legendary?

Skill points were gone in PF1.

This is basically what I am asking. If it is what I think it is, it is either proficiency by Skill Feat, or by Ranks. If it is by ranks, then you only need Four in a skill to become legendary in that skill, and the only reason to put a rank in that skill from then on is to get another +1 in it, though you would want to get all your skills to legendary before you do so...

So, the min level to do that would be at 7th level.

From the responses thus far, it doesn't seem like this is the case, as a character would likely only be Legendary proficiency with maybe three skills, at the most, in his career. (lucky Rogues...)


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Franz Lunzer wrote:
So... Are there 'virtual skill points' you gain every level?

We'll probably learn more on Friday, but... sort of?

"Are You Proficient?" Paizo Blog wrote:

Gaining Proficiency

For most of your statistics, your starting proficiencies are determined by your class, though for skills, you can assign your ranks as you choose among any of the skills in the game. When it comes to leveling up, all classes gain skill rank increases at every odd-numbered level (or more often for the rogue!). Your other proficiencies increase based on your class and feat choices.

So when you get a rank increase, you bump up a skill one level. You can go up to Expert at any time, but Master is level locked around 7th and Legendary is locked around 15th, though some classes can pick certain proficiencies earlier than others.

So maybe you start out Trained in Acrobatics and can do basic stunt work. At 3rd or 5th you can bump up to Expert. At 7th or one of the higher odds you can become a Master. Then after 15th or so, you can increase to Legendary if you so desire.


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Crayon wrote:
That said, it seems like Skills are another aspect of the game being made more complicated for complexity's sake...

How so? No more need to determine which are class skills and which aren't (as far as we know); a shorter list of skills; five different levels of proficiency (the same as everything else in the system); and certain bonus abilities gated behind feats. Not seeing how this is "more complicated for complexity's sake" than PF1E, especially if you factor in things like the Skill Unlocks from Unchained.

Leedwashere wrote:
I think a level 13 character being able to stop their adventuring companion of so many levels from bleeding out without having to sweat about it isn't mind-blowing.

After 13 levels, I'd hope they'd seen enough to figure out "staunch the bleeding" :)

John Lynch 106 wrote:
Can't say I'm a fan* and I know the reaction my table will have to this (based on how they reacted to other games that implemented this) and it won't be pretty.

Any chance you might, y'know, actually get one of them to post here, rather than continually speaking on their behalf? It gets old seeing the same thing in every thread, man.

Mark Seifter wrote:
Deranged Stabby-Man wrote:
Lol, that legendary stealth ability. You literally need to wear a bell on you at all times to keep from giving your party mates heart attacks.
Or you can double down and also take Scare to Death from legendary Intimidate, and literally give them heart attacks.

Well played, sir, well played.

Mark Seifter wrote:
We have a known discussion point where the fighter should very likely get Intimidate as a signature skill and also another starting trained skill, but alas, that omission was pointed out after the book hit the printer (after which we noticed it in several times from several places). I am guessing there won't really be two sides among you guys in the playtest as to whether we should carry through on that.

That's a couple of times we've seen you mention signature skill now, Mark - is it just a case of "these are skills we think are typical for the class", or is there some mechanical benefit for a character taking training in their signature skill?


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Mark Seifter wrote:
Voss wrote:
Diplomacy, Intimidate and Deception are separate and indivisible things because... ?
This is an excellent question. At one point we had it combined one step further, to Influence and Deception, but it just didn't work. Characters needed to be able to be one of diplomatic/intimidating without being the other, and they then couldn't without serious kludging of constantly saying "+X Influence but only for Intimidation" (for instance, one that stuck out to me was that a troll would be great at being diplomatic in our early draft). So we split 'em back out.

Actually, rather than so much skill consolidation, I would have rather seen retention of the large and fine-grained skill list (with some significant tweaking), and granted more skill ranks/proficiencies per level (especially for those classes that are not Intelligence-based casters), to allow for more fine-grained customization of characters without enforcing too much specialization.

And sign me up for disliking the name “Thievery” for the skill that subsumed Disable Device, Sleight of Hand, etc. — of course, if the above advice were followed, these wouldn’t have been combined into Thievery in the first place . . . .

Liberty's Edge

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Franz Lunzer wrote:

So, skill points per level are gone the way of the dodo?

I'm still not sure I understand how to train skills at level up though.

I get that at level X, your bonus to skill Y is:

level + proficiency + ability mod + item bonus

This is correct!

Franz Lunzer wrote:
Also, from the wording in the blogs, I get that a fighter is peaking his proficiency in 3+INT skills of his choice, and gets a skill feat every odd level.

This is incorrect!

What happens to a Fighter is as follows:

At 1st level, he gets a number of skills at Trained equal to 3+int Mod (4+Int Mod in the final game, probably). So an Int 12 Fighter would pick 4 skills (5 in the final game) and they are now Trained.

At 2nd level and every even level thereafter he gets a Skill Feat (on top of the one from Background at 1st level).

At 3rd level and every odd level thereafter, he gets X ranks in skills. He can use those, on a one for one basis, to buy new skills at Trained, or to upgrade existing skills by one rank (so Trained to Expert, or Expert to Master, or Master to Legend). He cannot buy skills to Master before 7th level, or to Legend before 15th.

The only part of this we don't know is what X is, though it seems to probably be 2 (it could be 3), and the same for almost everyone, with only Rogues getting extra and nobody adding Int Mod.

Franz Lunzer wrote:

So... Are there 'virtual skill points' you gain every level?

Like: it takes 1 vsp to be trained, 5 to be expert, 10 to be master, 15 to be legendary?

There are not. There are ranks. They work in a very straightforward fashion, you just don't get huge numbers of them or get them every level.

Jon Brazer Enterprises

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I'd like to know how is the occultism skill going to be different than the arcana skill? I mean, I always thought the line between religion and arcana when it came to magic was thin. Occultism and arcana, I'm going to need some explanation on how these are different and more importantly, why they are separate when others are consolidated.

Silver Crusade

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Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Hmm wrote:

Oh. Let me go on the record that I also want Thievery renamed as something else. Legerdemain works, or even ‘Roguery’ or ‘Security’.

Hmm

I’m partial to Security (Elder Scrolls!).

And Skulduggery :3


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Deadmanwalking wrote:

At 3rd level and every level thereafter, he gets X ranks in skills. He can use those, on a one for one basis, to buy new skills at Trained, or to upgrade existing skills by one rank (so Trained to Expert, or Expert to Master, or Master to Legend). He cannot buy skills to Master before 7th level, or to Legend before 15th.

The only part of this we don't know is what X is, though it seems to probably be 2 (it could be 3), and the same for almost everyone, with only Rogues getting extra and nobody adding Int Mod.

We can probably do a little math based off this statement from Mark:

Mark Seifter wrote:
As best I can tell, a single-classed rogue who desperately desired skill, spent every option and took every advantage, could manage to gain at least 54 skill rank increases, but 35 of those would all be only for untrained to trained, so...lots of Lores!

Liberty's Edge

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Dale McCoy Jr wrote:
I'd like to know how is the occultism skill going to be different than the arcana skill? I mean, I always thought the line between religion and arcana when it came to magic was thin. Occultism and arcana, I'm going to need some explanation on how these are different and more importantly, why they are separate when others are consolidated.

We know that the four Spell Lists are now Arcane, Divine, Primal, and Occult. Having one skill for each spell list makes good sense to me. Occultism is then different from Arcana in the same way and to about the same degree as Religion is different from Nature: It deals with an entirely different category of creatures and phenomena.

Cyouni wrote:

We can probably do a little math based off this statement from Mark:

Mark Seifter wrote:
As best I can tell, a single-classed rogue who desperately desired skill, spent every option and took every advantage, could manage to gain at least 54 skill rank increases, but 35 of those would all be only for untrained to trained, so...lots of Lores!

Not very well, since we know one can spend Skill Feats or General Feats on extra Skills. And Rogues get extra skill ranks over other classes, but at an unknown progression.

That probably means that the Feats can only get you new skills at Trained, not increase skills, and thus means that Rogues get 19 unrestricted skill-ups over their career, plus 10 that can only get you to Trained, but we don't know that, and certainly don't know how it stacks up against other Classes.

It does probably indicate we're talking a maximum of 2 Skills per level at which you receive them for non-Rogues, but details are still very shaky.

If it is 2 Ranks per level, then you can get 6 skills all the way to Legendary in theory at 20th level (if you have at least 6 Trained at 1st and do nothing else with any other skills after 1st level, except maybe picking up new ones at Trained by raising Int), as a non-Rogue, but a Rogue couldn't do any better on that front (though they could readily have every other skill at Trained and several Lores).

If it's one Rank per level, possibly plus another that can only be used to make a Skill Trained (a real possibility), then make that a max of 3 skills at Legendary.


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I just looked at my notes from the Glass Cannon podcast and found these snippets regarding skills (or abilities similar to skills).

Whether any of this information is outdated I obviously can't know.

From part 1:
* Disbelieve was done as a Perception check

From part 2:
* Paladin class feat (Hospice Knight) - Medicine skill is a class skill, increases Lay on Hands to d6s
* Medicine skill - treat dying or close to death - can be improved later on to actually restore HP with skill unlocks. Medicine = Heal skill.
* Society roll/skill? - probably replaces Knowledge: Local.
* Perception also has a DC - a passive Perception (10 + skill level). E.g. a monster trying to sneak past you would make a Stealth check against your Perception DC.
* Critical successes on skill checks give you e.g. additional information.

From part 3:
* Thievery skill (picking locks).
* Lock kit - fumbled the thievery skill, so gets a penalty due to missing pieces of the kit.
* Occultism skill - identify strange symbols or runes.
* Knowledge skills - you can still succeed untrained, but some things might be held back by the GM as knowledge a layman wouldn't have.
* Lore (underworld) - knowledge skill about the criminal underworld, thieves guilds and such.
*********************

With regards to Occultism, that could indicate that it has to do with cults, secret societies (in the same way Lore Underworld pertains to the criminal underworld and thieves guilds), rituals, rune magic maybe(?) and things from beyond/Gods of the Dark Tapestry/The Dominion of the Black (maybe other planes too).

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KingOfAnything wrote:
Fuzzypaws wrote:
I was thinking curing mundane things like disease or Blindness would be a Master feat rather than a Legendary one. Drained, enervated, cursed at legendary, sure. But stuff within the realm of tens if not hundreds of thousands of real world doctors should not be the exclusive domain of level 15+ legends.
It is a legendary feat to completely cure a disease in an hour. Anyone trained in the skill can treat a disease and hasten it's cure, no feat required.

And restore the sight to a blind person. At least the equivalent of removing a cataract, in 1 hour, on the field and not an hospital, without loss of sight and the need of a artifical lens.

Or treating a retinal detachment, without a laser or other moder medical instruments.

Yes, that is truly legendary. Not something that "tens if not hundreds of thousands of real world doctors" can do. Actually no real world doctor can do that.

If that was possible life in third world countries would be way better.

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Bardarok wrote:
kaid wrote:
FedoraFerret wrote:
Not gonna lie, unless Remove Blindness/Deafness and Cure Disease have been turned into much higher level spells I'm not super impressed by that legendary Heal feat.
I think it probably depends how early various classes can get legendary proficiency as a medic. At the levels this is available having more options about who can clear some nasty conditions is useful. Also curing blindness through purely non magical means is pretty legendary.
Unless Feat 15 means that it requires level 15 as an additional prerequisite. That formatting seems to indicate that it is a level 15 feat though we don't know what that would actually mean. Maybe feat levels are different from character levels, spell levels are.

I think it require 15 skill ranks in medicine.

But if we get a few skill points every 2 level that can be problematic.

necromental wrote:
kaid wrote:
FedoraFerret wrote:
Not gonna lie, unless Remove Blindness/Deafness and Cure Disease have been turned into much higher level spells I'm not super impressed by that legendary Heal feat.
I think it probably depends how early various classes can get legendary proficiency as a medic. At the levels this is available having more options about who can clear some nasty conditions is useful. Also curing blindness through purely non magical means is pretty legendary.
Not if you're curing a lvl 3 condition at lvl 15. Also, not available in combat.

Potentially several times in a day, without preparing oner or more spell slot for that and it applies to several kinds of conditions, while spells generally cure only one.

I really don't get how you find that underwhelming.


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Diego Rossi wrote:
I think it require 15 skill ranks in medicine.

It doesn't because skill ranks aren't Numbers anymore. The ranks are Untrained > Trained > Expert > Master > Legendary.

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Deadmanwalking wrote:


Franz Lunzer wrote:
Also, from the wording in the blogs, I get that a fighter is peaking his proficiency in 3+INT skills of his choice, and gets a skill feat every odd level.

This is incorrect!

What happens to a Fighter is as follows:

At 1st level, he gets a number of skills at Trained equal to 3+int Mod (4+Int Mod in the final game, probably). So an Int 12 Fighter would pick 4 skills (5 in the final game) and they are now Trained.

At 2nd level and every even level thereafter he gets a Skill Feat (on top of the one from Background at 1st level).

At 3rd level and every odd level thereafter, he gets X ranks in skills. He can use those, on a one for one basis, to buy new skills at Trained, or to upgrade existing skills by one rank (so Trained to Expert, or Expert to Master, or Master to Legend). He cannot buy skills to Master before 7th level, or to Legend before 15th.

The only part of this we don't know is what X is, though it seems to probably be 2 (it could be 3), and the same for almost everyone, with only Rogues getting extra and nobody adding Int Mod.

Well, that makes things easier. (I don’t know where your knowledge is from, or how you gained it, but if it’s correct, then a lot of granularity of the skill system is lost in PF2E.)

It makes the math work with the rest of the system, I can see that.
I’ll have to see it in play, I guess.

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Milo v3 wrote:
Diego Rossi wrote:
I think it require 15 skill ranks in medicine.
It doesn't because skill ranks aren't Numbers anymore. The ranks are Untrained > Trained > Expert > Master > Legendary.

Probaly you and Deadmanwalking are right. The use of teh term rank generate some confusion. "Mastery increase" would be clearer, at least in a Blog when we don't have a complete document.

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GentleGiant wrote:
Disbelieve was done as a Perception check

Disbelieve as in disbelieve a lie or disbelieve an illusion?


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Rysky wrote:
GentleGiant wrote:
Disbelieve was done as a Perception check
Disbelieve as in disbelieve a lie or disbelieve an illusion?

Illusion if I remember correctly. The illusory orcs that attacked them in the forest.

Return to the Crypt playtest blog (if anyone wants to listen to it to confirm):
(59:00) As the fight rages on, it quickly becomes apparent to some of the characters that these orcs are not real. Created by illusion magic, they vanish the moment they are struck. These phantom foes are created using a new spell called illusory creature. Created by a hidden wizard, these orcs are bit more difficult to hit than ordinary foes, basing their statistics on the caster. The fact that they are a spell also explains why they have only two actions each turn and hit for so little damage (all of which is halved once the illusion is revealed).


graystone wrote:
GentleGiant wrote:
Student of the Canon
I want a 'Student of the Cannon' feat. ;)

How about Student of the Salmon Cannon?

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edduardco wrote:
Bardarok wrote:
edduardco wrote:
Bardarok wrote:
edduardco wrote:
So how training is gained? The blog mentioned fighters has 3 + Int trained skills, but is that for level?
It was mentioned in the level up blog that (Cleric's at least) get a skill increase every other level where they can increase their proficiency level in a skill.

Thanks Bardarok and KignOfAnything

But, can we be sure that skill ranks increases just by one each odd level? If yes that is kind of disappointing, I would expect to keep adding Int.

Its not as bad as all that, the bonus for all skills (trained and untrained) increase by one every level. So skill ranks are levels of proficiency in the new system which maxes out at rank 4 (legendary). I also assume that you get a bonus skill rank when you improve intelligence.
Yes I know, but that means that most characters are only going to have three or four skills maxed, I don't see how are they going to be more round up with that. Although given the number of skill feats maybe that is more than enough, I definitely need to play with this to see how it goes, because right now I don't think I like it much.

A level 19 fighter with int 12 (and I am convinced that he will have more int at that level) ha a total of (3+1)*10 increases in skill proficency.

Becoming legendary cost 4 skill proficencies. So he can be legendary in 10 skills.
At level 9 he can be a master (assuming he can't get a legendary proficency at that level) in 6 skills and expert in sevent.
Plus what you get from your race and background.
That isn't "three or four skills maxed". That is 4 skill maxed at level 1, assuming you can be at most trained at that level, or 2 skill maxed if you can be an expert.
4 skills at expert level at level 3. 6 at level 5 or 2 at master and 2 at expert and 2 at trained (again, plus background and race).

I don't see the problem.

Silver Crusade

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GentleGiant wrote:
Rysky wrote:
GentleGiant wrote:
Disbelieve was done as a Perception check
Disbelieve as in disbelieve a lie or disbelieve an illusion?

Illusion if I remember correctly. The illusory orcs that attacked them in the forest.

Return to the Crypt playtest blog (if anyone wants to listen to it to confirm):
(59:00) As the fight rages on, it quickly becomes apparent to some of the characters that these orcs are not real. Created by illusion magic, they vanish the moment they are struck. These phantom foes are created using a new spell called illusory creature. Created by a hidden wizard, these orcs are bit more difficult to hit than ordinary foes, basing their statistics on the caster. The fact that they are a spell also explains why they have only two actions each turn and hit for so little damage (all of which is halved once the illusion is revealed).

Nice.

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Igwilly wrote:

Expanding on what I said:

Magic is perfectly capable of reacting to non-magical stuff. It is very possible (even probable) that true seeing has a limit, and, if the sneaker is good enough, it just doesn't work. That's not making stealth magical; that's limiting magic. Something the game desperatly needs.

Just to specify it: in PF1 True seeing dosn't allow you to see automatically people using stealth.

PF1 True seeing wrote:

The subject sees through normal and magical darkness, notices secret doors hidden by magic, sees the exact locations of creatures or objects under blur or displacement effects, sees invisible creatures or objects normally, sees through illusions, and sees the true form of polymorphed, changed, or transmuted things.

...

True seeing, however, does not penetrate solid objects. It in no way confers X-ray vision or its equivalent. It does not negate concealment, including that caused by fog and the like. True seeing does not help the viewer see through mundane disguises, spot creatures who are simply hiding, or notice secret doors hidden by mundane means.

Magic has already been limited several years ago, but there are plenty of people in the forum that refuse to acknowledge the limitations and will go on as if they didn't exist.

I have no doubts that that will continue in PF2.

It is the same thing as claiming that Knock replace and surpass the rogue disable device.
What it do in (in game) reality?
"When you complete the casting of this spell, make a caster level check against the DC of the lock with a +10 bonus."
Compare that with a Rogue with maximized Disable device:
Base skill rank = the rogue level = the same as the CL of the spellcaster
+10 to the caster check of the spellcaster vs: +3 for class skill +2 for masterwork tools +4 for dexterity = +9

So a Rogue with typical starting dexterity and equipment is 1 point behind the spellcaster that need to memorize the spell or need to lear it. But the rogue can retry without burnig spell slots, can take 10 and take 20, all things that you can't make with a caster level check.
When the rogue reach level 6 he will almonst certainly rise his desterity to 20 and be on par, at level 12 he will be ahead.

Knock is a poor substitute for the Rogue ability to disable devices in a party without a Rogue, nothing more.


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Legendary Medic would make for a really cool humanitarian character. Being able to cure 1 condition an hour without resource depletion makes them really good for dealing with a disease outbreak or otherwise treating entire towns. Neat that this kind of hero can now be represented.

I also don't see taking an hour to be a huge downside most of the time vs spells. Prepared casters don't usually carry things like remove blindness by default, so they need to stop and prepare it. In PF1 if you had an open slot this could be done in 15 minutes. If not, you had to make camp.

In PF2, the closest thing we have heard to open slots is Quick Preparation, a high level wizard feat, which takes 10 minutes. No indication yet that this applies to clerics yet.

I submit that stopping for 10 minutes will rarely be a significant difference over stopping for an hour, and it is definitely better than stopping to sleep for eight hours.

Silver Crusade

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Rysky wrote:
Hmm wrote:

Oh. Let me go on the record that I also want Thievery renamed as something else. Legerdemain works, or even ‘Roguery’ or ‘Security’.

Hmm

I’m partial to Security (Elder Scrolls!).

And Skulduggery :3

Security feels like it should be the Starfinder name; Skulduggery I can get behind! (and from there sneak attack)

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Alexander Bascom wrote:
Yolande d'Bar wrote:

Generally, I like the look of this. I don't really want, however, a system where untrained high-level characters outshine trained low-level characters at basic knowledge stuff like Religion or Occultism. The 3rd level cleric should probably know more religious stuff than the typical 15th level atheist barbarian--but the fact that the cleric gets +3 on her check, and the barbarian +13, doesn't bode well to me.

I wonder what the effect would be if I houseruled "untrained" to mean level divided by 2. . . .

That house rule would help with the extreme untrained vs legendary.. but the ranks between trained and legendary are still meaningless compared to level.

So you're a fighter who dabbled in religion, but is level 10? I am a level 5 Cleric who as devoted my life to it! Who is better?

Let's make it a RL example (I hope I will not offend anyone).

Character A is a Chatolic priest that has studied in seminary.
Character B is a traveler that has spent some time visiting the world and has visited temples and holy sites of different religions.

Who know betther the tenets of the Chatolic church and the differences in faith between Chatolics, Protestants and Ortodox churches? The Priest.
Who has a better chance of recognizing holy symbols of non-Christian (or related) faiths? The traveler.

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Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
Mark Seifter wrote:
Legendary Medic also has another really powerful advantage that would likely require in-depth analysis of the playtest document to undercover but I can tell you right off: The chances for say, a 16th-level legendary Medicine user to remove a 17th+ level affliction with this feat are substantially better than any other 16th-level character's odds. This advantages dissipates a bit at level 17 for a caster willing to use a 9th-level spell slot on affliction-removal (though that's quite an expensive resource), and evaporates compared to a level 20 cleric who takes 10th-level spells and then prepares a remove curse or the like in that slot (which seems quite unlikely when you could prepare miracle or avatar, and even then, the Legendary Medic can keep going with it and the cleric has one of those a day).

Interesting, but not without flaws.

Let's say that yes, Legendary Medicine with the feat means you can remove any disease or poison or blindness/deafness condition, as well as the source of those conditions from the person. (The latter is speculation, but let's give it the benefit of the doubt to have it be more powerful.) Useful, yes.

But just one question though: At what point will the party stop to let Frank the Fighter (or whoever the dedicated healer is) recoup his afflictions for an hour (or more, per affliction) after getting a really bad case of rabies from the BBEG's guardian pet?

I can assure you it is not when the world is in need of saving and the big bad is closing in on executing his schemes. You might as well have the Cleric burn his 9th/10th level spell on it so the party can keep moving and not lose the Adventure Path, since the most likely case of using or applying such a feat would be directly after or even perhaps during the throes of combat. (This also assumes some effects aren't "This effect cannot be healed or restored short of XYZ spell," as I expect some of those high level effects to possess verbiage of.)

In short, even if...

Well, probably they will stop for mundane healing before or at the same time they will stop to give the cleric time to change his spell selection (if possible) or recover them.

If the time is so short that isn't possible to spend an hour heling a party member, probbly it is too short to stop long enough that the cleric is able to change/recover his spells, don't you think?

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AnimatedPaper wrote:
Mark Seifter wrote:
kwiqsilver wrote:

I don't think I like the idea that a 10th level fighter who has never touched a piano before is going to be a better pianist than a low level bard with training.

It also seems like the difference between untrained and legendary (5 points) is low enough that it'll be stuck in the shadow of the large die roll variation at lower levels or of the large level bonus at higher level.

The 10th level untrained fighter would potentially be able to do something impressive involving that piano for a quick little trick (I can imagine maybe playing Mary Had a Little Lamb with one hand while bench pressing the piano with the other hand), but is completely incapable of Staging a Performance of Sonnorae's Sonata #53 (the Betrayal Sonata).
I thought of it as the fighter being asked to be on Celebrity Piano Duels, while the bard has a job in a local bar. The bard might be flat better at the technical aspects, but the fighter has name recognition and is a lot more likely to draw a crowd.

Now I see people fighting wielding pianos as weapons. :D


Very similar list to 5th Ed, and I really like that you get extra trained skills for Int; at least in the 5th Ed playtest you got additional languages for a high Int, they settled on nothing...

I also seriously dig getting rid of Perception as a skill, finally.

There is a treadmill in this edition, but that is intentional, and with the 4-tiers of success system, it seems a great way to leverage that.

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