Secrets of Alchemy

Friday, April 20, 2018

Historically, alchemy was a protoscience with diverse traditions seen throughout the world. Its chemical discoveries were often explained and expanded upon using the metaphysical traditions of the practitioner's native culture. These alchemical experiments and observations were later refined by experimentation and rigor to become the modern science of chemistry.

In Pathfinder First Edition, alchemy was the domain of lower-level pseudo-magical treasures, at least until the alchemist made his debut in the Pathfinder RPG Advanced Player's Guide. This class forged the way for creating higher-level alchemical items and effects, though it often leaned on arcane magic to get the job done.

When we tapped the alchemist for inclusion in the Pathfinder Playtest, it gave us the chance to rethink the essentials of alchemy and create a broad tradition that reflected its historical inspiration. For the upcoming version of the game, we've pulled magic and alchemy apart. Alchemy might feature dramatic effects, but these are powered by the reactions of powerful chemicals—and sometimes catalyzed by resonance—creating a type of fantastic mad science. Where magical power comes from the energies of a spellcasting tradition, alchemical power comes from the fusion of latent potential trapped within matter, released as energy through a reaction with a different potent material. Strike a sunrod on a hard surface and its alchemical reagents combine to create light. A creature's internal chemistry interacts with an elixir of life to heal wounds or brace the body against toxins. Bombs let off explosive energy when their flask shatters against a creature, exposing the contents to the air.

While magic involves pulling energy out of thin air by way of spells, rituals, or magically empowered items, basic alchemy is a specialty of the Crafting skill. Any character with the Alchemical Crafting skill feat can create alchemical items as long as they have the proper formula, along with enough time and reagents. Alchemists know (or hazard) shortcuts to the process and can create unstable alchemical items by using an alchemist kit and paying a resonance cost.

So, what kind of items can they make in the Pathfinder Playtest? Alchemical items come in four general categories: here's what you can expect from each.

Bombs

This category will be familiar territory for those of you currently playing Pathfinder. Alchemist's fire, liquid ice, and bottled lightning have been a mainstay for low-level alchemists and other characters over the years. In the Pathfinder Playtest, these items are the baselines for alchemical bombs. While the base bombs deal a relatively low amount of damage, the advanced alchemy class feature allows the alchemist to infuse them with extra power according to the alchemist's level. While these powerful bombs are unstable (losing potency in either 24 hours or after a round, depending on how the alchemist crafted them), during that limited time they can pack a punch. For instance, here's bottled lightning.

Bottled Lightning Item 1

Alchemical, Bomb, Consumable, Electricity
Price 3 gp
Method of Use held, 2 hands; Bulk L

Bottled lightning is packed with reagents that create an electric blast when exposed to air. Bottled lightning deals 1d6 electricity damage and 1 electricity splash damage and causes the target to be flat-footed to all creatures until the start of your next turn.

If an 11th-level alchemist makes one of these bombs using his advanced alchemy, the electricity damage increases to 4d6 damage, though the splash stays at 1 (unless said alchemist takes the Calculated Bomber feat, which would increase that splash damage to his Intelligence modifier). The flat-footed effect also stacks with anything extra the alchemist might add to the bomb from his class feats, making bottled lightning a great choice when going up against bosses or high-AC foes.

Of course, there are some surprises among the alchemical bombs. Thunderstones, which deal greater sonic damage in the hands of a higher-level alchemist, and tanglefoot bags are also on the bomb list.

Elixirs

In Pathfinder First Edition, we have potions, elixir, and extracts, all taking up much of the same mechanical design space. In the playtest, these divisions are less ambiguous. Potions are potent liquids made by way of magical crafting and have magical, often arcane, effects. Elixirs, on the other hand, are alchemical concoctions producing effects that are often very dramatic, but are non-magical. Potions are often quicker to use and usually pack some extra oomph, but elixirs work even in places where magic is dulled or suppressed, and an alchemist can craft them in a hurry. Though both potions and elixirs are used by consuming them, and often require a bit of resonance to kick them into gear, elixirs' spectrum of effects tend to deal with changing the body or state of mind. An example of this second sort of elixir is the liquid courage found in bravo's brew.

Bravo's Brew Item 3

Alchemical, Consumable, Elixir, Mental
Price 7 gp
Method of Use held, 1 hand; Bulk L
Activation Operate Activation

This flask of foaming beer grants courage. For the next hour after drinking this elixir, you gain a +1 item bonus to Will saves, and a +3 item bonus to Will saves against fear.

Some of the most potent elixirs are mutagens. These elixirs transform the mind and the body in dramatic ways, granting sizeable item bonuses to a number of related skill checks and attributes. However, this comes with a drawback: penalties to some other group of relevant skills and attributes. Mutagens also tend to morph the user's physical features in some way. For instance, a lesser bestial mutagen gives you a more savage aspect with greater muscle mass, granting you a +2 item bonus to Athletics checks and unarmed attack rolls and increasing the amount of damage die you roll for such attacks, but this new form is clumsy and lumbering, imparting a -1 penalty to Acrobatics, Stealth, and Thievery checks, as well as to AC and Reflex saves.

Mutagens have some limitations. They must be attuned to a specific creature; this typically involves including some bit of the attuned creature's body (such as hair, nail trimmings, saliva, or the like) as a reagent during the crafting process. Moreover, you can only have one mutagen benefit active at a time, though you can suffer from any number of mutagen drawbacks simultaneously.

What about extracts? Well, in this scheme, they're just not necessary anymore. But, I wouldn't be surprised if we do something else with extracts sometime in the future, reviving that game term to make something particularly dynamic and fun.

Poisons

Alchemists usually deal with elixirs that bolster the body and the mind, but they can also dabble in alchemical poisons that do just the opposite. While there are many poisons in nature, alchemical poisons tend to be more refined versions of those natural poisons, often distilled or concentrated, created for both potency and ease of use.

For example, here's the sleep poison favored by drow.

Sleep Poison Item 2

Alchemical, Consumable, Injury, Poison
Price 5 gp
Method of Use held, 2 hands; Bulk L
Activation 3 Operate Activations, no Resonance Point cost
Saving Throw Fortitude DC 13; Maximum Duration 4 hours; Stage 1 slowed 1 (1 round); Stage 2 asleep with no Perception check to wake up (1 round); Stage 3 asleep with no Perception check to wake up (1d4 hours)

Let's say you found or made a vial of sleep poison. It takes three Operate Activation actions to apply it to a weapon (which must be one that deals either piercing or slashing damage). If the next attack made by the weapon is a hit or critical hit, the target must attempt a save against the poison, gaining the effects of Stage 1 on a failure (or Stage 2 on a critical failure), with later saves determining how the poison either intensifies or is shaken off. Since the maximum duration of the poison is 4 hours, no matter what happens, the poison will be completely gone from the target's system 4 hours later.

Like all alchemical items, an alchemist can create a less stable version of a poison using his advanced alchemy, as long as he possesses the formula for that poison and has the resonance to spare. Here's the bad news. Sleep poison is a closely guarded secret of the drow, so good luck getting the formula.

Tools

The last category of alchemical items is tools. Tools are the items that don't fit in other categories. They typically affect the terrain, vision, or other aspects of the environment, instead of affecting a creature directly. The sunrod is one example of an alchemical tool. The smokestick is another.

Smokestick Item 1

Alchemical, Consumable
Price 2 gp
Method of Use held, 2 hands; Bulk L
Activation Operate Activation, no Resonance Point cost

With a sharp twist of this item, you instantly create a screen of thick, opaque smoke in a 5-foot-radius burst centered on one corner of your space. All creatures within that area are concealed. The smoke lasts for 1 minute or until dispersed by a strong wind.

As you can see alchemy has become a discipline in its own right, with many tools to aid adventurers in general and the alchemist in particular.

Stephen Radney-MacFarland
Senior Designer

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Tags: Pathfinder Playtest
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2 people marked this as a favorite.
emky wrote:
... I'm going to feel doubly bad that so much of the core rulebook with PF2 will be content that I won't be using AND that the game's likely to be worse-balanced for doing so.

Yeah, I get that feeling as well: PF2E seems more like Starfinder in 4618AE than it seems Pathfinder renewed. ... which might not be a bad thing for some, but I think I might stick to PF1E.

If I want to play Starfinder, I'll play Starfinder in the SF timeline.

Shadow Lodge

4 people marked this as a favorite.

I'm rather baffled that people are expecting a reworking of the PF system intended to be more in keeping with the design goals and adventure conventions that Paizo holds their products to, to NOT be similar to the brand new system that Paizo just released last year.


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TOZ wrote:
I'm rather baffled that people are expecting a reworking of the PF system intended to be more in keeping with the design goals and adventure conventions that Paizo holds their products to, to NOT be similar to the brand new system that Paizo just released last year.

I expect it to be somewhere between the two as if I wanted Starfinder, I have Starfinder right over there. But I don't so I play Pathfinder.

If PF2 is just Starfinder set in Golarion...., meh.

Grand Lodge

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I don’t expect it to be, but to think that two games designed by the same team aren’t going to share a lot of base assumptions and preferences seems a bit unrealistic.

Liberty's Edge

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MerlinCross wrote:
If PF2 is just Starfinder set in Golarion...., meh.

We know it isn't.

Action economy is wildly different, Classes are structured differently, Ancestries are structured differently from Starfinder species, there are 9 level prepared spell casters.

Hell, hit points even work differently (no Stamina in PF2).


Deadmanwalking wrote:
MerlinCross wrote:
If PF2 is just Starfinder set in Golarion...., meh.

We know it isn't.

Action economy is wildly different, Classes are structured differently, Ancestries are structured differently from Starfinder species, there are 9 level prepared spell casters.

Hell, hit points even work differently (no Stamina in PF2).

The Ancestries seem close enough to the Starfinder races other than becoming more "Racey" as you level. Like unlocking some draven resistance or something. But if I showed both to a new player is probably get some "they alike" comments.

High level spell faster doesn't factor in for me in either setting as my groups don't go that high. Nice to have and needed but doesn't effect me outside of balance of power spells.

Bulk, backgrounds, and the weirdness of the gear levels seem to be carried over . Though only two of those seem confirmed.

It's not going to be like Starfinder but I think they'll pull some experience from it.


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It is funny, reading the forum, I learned that PF2 is just like Starfinder, but also like DnD 4e, and just a 5e clone.

Which means 4e,5e and SF are similar ganes?


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I play a lot of Starfinder, and because the devs worked really hard (as a design goal) to make it compatible with Pathfinder (with legacy races and conversion guides in the Core Rulebook, not to mention monster conversion guides elsewhere), I think Starfinder and PF1 are *much* more similar than Starfinder and PF2 are going to be.


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ahhh alchemy :(

I wish paizo make it like in the witcher video game, with toxicity, so you could use a little ammount of alchemical items per level.

As a houseruler, i use Vitality (con score + fort base) and every potion has a toxicity equal spell level (even cure wounds potions). amd toxicity reduce your max vitality score.

So, once you get at half your vitality score, i apply the rules from pathfinder unchained wound treshold (p. 136).

I hope you read my comment and consider this at least as an optional rule.


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emky wrote:
Will Alchemy be easily stripped out and ignored for those of us who don't like it in our FRPGs? Or is it so integrated to the game that you're missing too much/balance if you drop it? (Really: Alchemy and Goblins should be in splatbooks, not the core book. They are a niche conceit, and not core "fantasy tends to have this!" material.) I'm going to feel doubly bad that so much of the core rulebook with PF2 will be content that I won't be using AND that the game's likely to be worse-balanced for doing so.

Don't think it will be too hard to remove. Ban the feat that lets you craft it, ban the alchemist and then never sell or give players alchemical drops. I doubt alchemy is something that is an assumed part of core balance, just like you can probably live without any of the other classes and be fine.

Disagree with almost everything else you say. Thinking something shouldn't be an option because you don't like it is incredibly selfish. I don't like Rangers, I'm not going around saying they shouldn't be in the book to make more room for what I do want.


gustavo iglesias wrote:

It is funny, reading the forum, I learned that PF2 is just like Starfinder, but also like DnD 4e, and just a 5e clone.

Which means 4e,5e and SF are similar ganes?

Maybe? Some parts? Is Healing surge that different from Starfinder Stamina? Will PF2 Backgrounds be that different from from 5e or closer to SF? Will it just be a hodgepodge of ideas tossed in?

I'd need to see more of the moving parts working together myself before I can say what it is. And if I don't like what PF2 is, well I have 3 APs and a homebrew setting to work through.


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Technology!


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Charlatan wrote:
Technology!

Dear gods it's gonna be fun to see the splat book for Numeria


I celebrate the use of item levels~

Having data like that attached to items gives you a lot of quick design marks for making mechanics that interact with items.

I am kind of hoping that there are more powerful bombs that can be used by non-alchemists, but I worry that the alchemist's bomb multiplier effect makes that kind of design decision impossible.


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Excaliburproxy wrote:

I celebrate the use of item levels~

Having data like that attached to items gives you a lot of quick design marks for making mechanics that interact with items.

I am kind of hoping that there are more powerful bombs that can be used by non-alchemists, but I worry that the alchemist's bomb multiplier effect makes that kind of design decision impossible.

I dunno. I can easily see them being in the category of "Too weak, use the high level" and "Too pricey, use the lower level".

Heck wasn't how Grenades handled in Starfinder not liked? Someone proved that the higher level Grenades were not viable due to just fully throwing money away. But the lower Grenades were quickly out paced with HP.

Granted they didn't have crafting rules and an Alchemist can make that without cash even if it lasts a Day. Or a couple minutes.


MerlinCross wrote:
Excaliburproxy wrote:

I celebrate the use of item levels~

Having data like that attached to items gives you a lot of quick design marks for making mechanics that interact with items.

I am kind of hoping that there are more powerful bombs that can be used by non-alchemists, but I worry that the alchemist's bomb multiplier effect makes that kind of design decision impossible.

I dunno. I can easily see them being in the category of "Too weak, use the high level" and "Too pricey, use the lower level".

Heck wasn't how Grenades handled in Starfinder not liked? Someone proved that the higher level Grenades were not viable due to just fully throwing money away. But the lower Grenades were quickly out paced with HP.

Granted they didn't have crafting rules and an Alchemist can make that without cash even if it lasts a Day. Or a couple minutes.

Well, yeah: you can negate that issue with adjustments to the game's costs and wealth or by giving characters with crafting options a way to get those kinds of items at a reasonable rate.

For instance: in starfinder, you could give people with a hypothetical crafting feat the ability to make consumables at 1/10th cost (which would be the sales cost of a grenade, anyways). Even giving some characters the ability to craft at 1/5th cost might make grenades viable.


Excaliburproxy wrote:
MerlinCross wrote:
Excaliburproxy wrote:

I celebrate the use of item levels~

Having data like that attached to items gives you a lot of quick design marks for making mechanics that interact with items.

I am kind of hoping that there are more powerful bombs that can be used by non-alchemists, but I worry that the alchemist's bomb multiplier effect makes that kind of design decision impossible.

I dunno. I can easily see them being in the category of "Too weak, use the high level" and "Too pricey, use the lower level".

Heck wasn't how Grenades handled in Starfinder not liked? Someone proved that the higher level Grenades were not viable due to just fully throwing money away. But the lower Grenades were quickly out paced with HP.

Granted they didn't have crafting rules and an Alchemist can make that without cash even if it lasts a Day. Or a couple minutes.

Well, yeah: you can negate that issue with adjustments to the game's costs and wealth or by giving characters with crafting options a way to get those kinds of items at a reasonable rate.

For instance: in starfinder, you could give people with a hypothetical crafting feat the ability to make consumables at 1/10th cost (which would be the sales cost of a grenade, anyways). Even giving some characters the ability to craft at 1/5th cost might make grenades viable.

I mean we can. Homebrew exists. It'd be nice to see the Devs take it into account.

That's not to say they don't with PF2. But we don't have the full info. Fingers crossed and all.


People have said "There can't be higher level bombs because the Alchemists multiplier makes them OP" but think about it. With cantrips scaling now things like acid splash might be viable for clean up after the wizard/sorcerer casts a couple fire balls, and all for "free"(well free if eschew components is still a thing in 2E). Where an Alchemist will quickly run out of his "free" bombs and need to start expending resources just to keep up. Even if the multiplier affects splash.

11th level
Wizard or sorcerer : energy ball(fire) 20' rad 10d6 ~ 35 damage on average.

Alchemist (INT 20) x4 multiplier. normal bomb 4d6 +5(20?) 15'diameter

Artokus's fire 8d6 +1d6 (4d6) 15' diameter

Hypothetical bomb that does 3d6 +1d6 to 10'splash 12d6 +4d6 25' diameter.

Since the higher level bombs will likely cost more resonance to make, Even the bonus Resonance the class gets won't keep the Alchemist from running out of free bombs long before he catches up to the damage a caster can do with a handful of spells


My guess is that you will almost never multiply multiple weapon dice, and that there will be bombs that are 1d8, 1d10, and 1d12.


If they just step up in damage size then I don’t think that would suit the goal of making them useful to non-alchemists.


Excaliburproxy wrote:
If they just step up in damage size then I don’t think that would suit the goal of making them useful to non-alchemists.

I don’t think “bombs should remain useful to any class through high levels” will be a goal of the game. Alchemical items in general, sure.

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Starfinder Society Subscriber

I think damaging bombs will be the purview of the alchemist, but I'm hoping that other classes will find the debuffs useful enough to dabble in the craft.


I can see that being true, especially with the no-save flatfooted effect.


Excaliburproxy wrote:
I can see that being true, especially with the no-save flatfooted effect.

To be fair I don't think every bomb will cause a Flatfoot. Frost bomb might still Stagger, Acid could apply a DoT same with Fire Bomb and so on.


MerlinCross wrote:
Excaliburproxy wrote:
I can see that being true, especially with the no-save flatfooted effect.
To be fair I don't think every bomb will cause a Flatfoot. Frost bomb might still Stagger, Acid could apply a DoT same with Fire Bomb and so on.

I get ya. I am just implying that certain bombs can be useful to non-alchemists at high levels simply due to the fact that bombs hit touch and have no-save status effects rather than dealing damage.

While only alchemists might use fire and acid bombs at high levels, a rogue may often chuck a shock bomb at the start of the round to get access to their sneak attack. With that in mind, shock bombs might end up being weirdly ubiquitous at high levels just due to the fact that they are so cheap and effective.

Designer

9 people marked this as a favorite.
Excaliburproxy wrote:
MerlinCross wrote:
Excaliburproxy wrote:
I can see that being true, especially with the no-save flatfooted effect.
To be fair I don't think every bomb will cause a Flatfoot. Frost bomb might still Stagger, Acid could apply a DoT same with Fire Bomb and so on.

I get ya. I am just implying that certain bombs can be useful to non-alchemists at high levels simply due to the fact that bombs hit touch and have no-save status effects rather than dealing damage.

While only alchemists might use fire and acid bombs at high levels, a rogue may often chuck a shock bomb at the start of the round to get access to their sneak attack. With that in mind, shock bombs might end up being weirdly ubiquitous at high levels just due to the fact that they are so cheap and effective.

I mentioned this before, but I really want to play a melee alchemist who still makes those amped up shock bombs for the party rogue to toss around.


Mark Seifter wrote:
Excaliburproxy wrote:
MerlinCross wrote:
Excaliburproxy wrote:
I can see that being true, especially with the no-save flatfooted effect.
To be fair I don't think every bomb will cause a Flatfoot. Frost bomb might still Stagger, Acid could apply a DoT same with Fire Bomb and so on.

I get ya. I am just implying that certain bombs can be useful to non-alchemists at high levels simply due to the fact that bombs hit touch and have no-save status effects rather than dealing damage.

While only alchemists might use fire and acid bombs at high levels, a rogue may often chuck a shock bomb at the start of the round to get access to their sneak attack. With that in mind, shock bombs might end up being weirdly ubiquitous at high levels just due to the fact that they are so cheap and effective.

I mentioned this before, but I really want to play a melee alchemist who still makes those amped up shock bombs for the party rogue to toss around.

That really is pretty cool; I like the idea of the alchemist whipping up bespoke consumables for their friends.

I was more talking about how useful bombs and high level alchemy could be for groups without a classed Alchemist (i.e. groups who like buying alchemical items or groups with a wizard or the like who skill-specializes in alchemy crafting). Like: is there an item-level-14 alchemist fire that does more damage and/or has cooler effects? If so, how can that be balanced with a classed Alchemist that boost the damage/efficacy of their own personal creations? That seems like a hard rope to walk, man, and I wish you guys the best of luck with it.


Excaliburproxy wrote:
Mark Seifter wrote:
Excaliburproxy wrote:
MerlinCross wrote:
Excaliburproxy wrote:
I can see that being true, especially with the no-save flatfooted effect.
To be fair I don't think every bomb will cause a Flatfoot. Frost bomb might still Stagger, Acid could apply a DoT same with Fire Bomb and so on.

I get ya. I am just implying that certain bombs can be useful to non-alchemists at high levels simply due to the fact that bombs hit touch and have no-save status effects rather than dealing damage.

While only alchemists might use fire and acid bombs at high levels, a rogue may often chuck a shock bomb at the start of the round to get access to their sneak attack. With that in mind, shock bombs might end up being weirdly ubiquitous at high levels just due to the fact that they are so cheap and effective.

I mentioned this before, but I really want to play a melee alchemist who still makes those amped up shock bombs for the party rogue to toss around.
That really is pretty cool; I like the idea of the alchemist whipping up bespoke consumables for their friends.

I would but Alchemy is such a low boost it's not really worth it. Might talk to my DM about those Concoctions though.

But I usually play Bomber with a side of support. I'm going to be brewing up a lot of Potions anyway might as well toss them or the Extracts I don't use that day, over to the others.


MerlinCross wrote:
Excaliburproxy wrote:
Mark Seifter wrote:
Excaliburproxy wrote:
MerlinCross wrote:
Excaliburproxy wrote:
I can see that being true, especially with the no-save flatfooted effect.
To be fair I don't think every bomb will cause a Flatfoot. Frost bomb might still Stagger, Acid could apply a DoT same with Fire Bomb and so on.

I get ya. I am just implying that certain bombs can be useful to non-alchemists at high levels simply due to the fact that bombs hit touch and have no-save status effects rather than dealing damage.

While only alchemists might use fire and acid bombs at high levels, a rogue may often chuck a shock bomb at the start of the round to get access to their sneak attack. With that in mind, shock bombs might end up being weirdly ubiquitous at high levels just due to the fact that they are so cheap and effective.

I mentioned this before, but I really want to play a melee alchemist who still makes those amped up shock bombs for the party rogue to toss around.
That really is pretty cool; I like the idea of the alchemist whipping up bespoke consumables for their friends.

I would but Alchemy is such a low boost it's not really worth it. Might talk to my DM about those Concoctions though.

But I usually play Bomber with a side of support. I'm going to be brewing up a lot of Potions anyway might as well toss them or the Extracts I don't use that day, over to the others.

I dunno, man. It seems to me like it might really pay dividends to brew a bestial mutagen with a bit of the monk's hair and then hand it over to him. That sleep poison might also be really effective if every person in your party got handed one poisoned dagger/arrow before a fight began (though I worry that might be blowing a lot of daily resources just to put down one beasty).

I could only see myself making a bravo's brew on the fly though (in reaction to seeing a dragon or whatever that I knew was going to force me into a fear check).

Designer

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Excaliburproxy wrote:
MerlinCross wrote:
Excaliburproxy wrote:
Mark Seifter wrote:
Excaliburproxy wrote:
MerlinCross wrote:
Excaliburproxy wrote:
I can see that being true, especially with the no-save flatfooted effect.
To be fair I don't think every bomb will cause a Flatfoot. Frost bomb might still Stagger, Acid could apply a DoT same with Fire Bomb and so on.

I get ya. I am just implying that certain bombs can be useful to non-alchemists at high levels simply due to the fact that bombs hit touch and have no-save status effects rather than dealing damage.

While only alchemists might use fire and acid bombs at high levels, a rogue may often chuck a shock bomb at the start of the round to get access to their sneak attack. With that in mind, shock bombs might end up being weirdly ubiquitous at high levels just due to the fact that they are so cheap and effective.

I mentioned this before, but I really want to play a melee alchemist who still makes those amped up shock bombs for the party rogue to toss around.
That really is pretty cool; I like the idea of the alchemist whipping up bespoke consumables for their friends.

I would but Alchemy is such a low boost it's not really worth it. Might talk to my DM about those Concoctions though.

But I usually play Bomber with a side of support. I'm going to be brewing up a lot of Potions anyway might as well toss them or the Extracts I don't use that day, over to the others.

I dunno, man. It seems to me like it might really pay dividends to brew a bestial mutagen with a bit of the monk's hair and then hand it over to him. That sleep poison might also be really effective if every person in your party got handed one poisoned dagger/arrow before a fight began (though I worry that might be blowing a lot of daily resources just to put down one beasty).

I could only see myself making a bravo's brew on the fly though (in reaction to seeing a dragon or whatever that I knew was going to force me into...

Monks tend to love bestial mutagen. There's a few mutagens that are really good for monks but it's hard for my monk to turn down that extra accuracy and damage.

Liberty's Edge

Mark Seifter wrote:
Monks tend to love bestial mutagen.

So, I'm guessing you've simplified natural attacks to just count as unarmed attacks then?


Mark Seifter wrote:
Excaliburproxy wrote:
MerlinCross wrote:

I would but Alchemy is such a low boost it's not really worth it. Might talk to my DM about those Concoctions though.

But I usually play Bomber with a side of support. I'm going to be brewing up a lot of Potions anyway might as well toss them or the Extracts I don't use that day, over to the others.

I dunno, man. It seems to me like it might really pay dividends to brew a bestial mutagen with a bit of the monk's hair and then hand it over to him. That sleep poison might also be really effective if every person in your party got handed one poisoned dagger/arrow before a fight began (though I worry that might be blowing a lot of daily resources just to put down one beasty).

I could only see myself making a bravo's brew on the fly though (in reaction to seeing a dragon or whatever that I knew was going to force me into a fear check).

Monks tend to love bestial mutagen. There's a few mutagens that are really good for monks but it's hard for my monk to turn down that extra accuracy and damage.

Well I kinda meant Now but alright.

1) There's your possible Mutagen for the day. Or Resonance from someone. Or Gold. Oh and Debuffs on the Monk. Hey we can GIVE people Mutagen without a Feat in PF2 right?

2) I'm iffy on Poison. It still feels like something you have to know will work and there's a lot of Immunites running around. VS Bandits, yeah sure. VS Undead or any not living creature, meh brew up some fire.

3) I predict and am open to being wrong, a lot of Concections being ported over as the "New Elixirs". They were either too buried in Splats or not worth it in PF1. I'm interested and seeing what changes.

4) Mark, does this mean you FIXED the whole confusing issue about Flurry of Blows and Natural Weapons? Or just Natural Weapons + Unarmed? Or just Natural Weapons in general?

Designer

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JRutterbush wrote:
Mark Seifter wrote:
Monks tend to love bestial mutagen.
So, I'm guessing you've simplified natural attacks to just count as unarmed attacks then?

Natural attacks and unarmed strikes are consolidated into one nice and consistent package, so whether you're using a fist, or a claw, or a crane flutter, or whatever, you only have to learn it once (also they work similarly to other weapons in most ways, so maybe you only have to learn it 0 times if you know the weapons? That just sounds weird though).


MerlinCross wrote:
Mark Seifter wrote:
Excaliburproxy wrote:
MerlinCross wrote:

I would but Alchemy is such a low boost it's not really worth it. Might talk to my DM about those Concoctions though.

But I usually play Bomber with a side of support. I'm going to be brewing up a lot of Potions anyway might as well toss them or the Extracts I don't use that day, over to the others.

I dunno, man. It seems to me like it might really pay dividends to brew a bestial mutagen with a bit of the monk's hair and then hand it over to him. That sleep poison might also be really effective if every person in your party got handed one poisoned dagger/arrow before a fight began (though I worry that might be blowing a lot of daily resources just to put down one beasty).

I could only see myself making a bravo's brew on the fly though (in reaction to seeing a dragon or whatever that I knew was going to force me into a fear check).

Monks tend to love bestial mutagen. There's a few mutagens that are really good for monks but it's hard for my monk to turn down that extra accuracy and damage.

Well I kinda meant Now but alright.

1) There's your possible Mutagen for the day. Or Resonance from someone. Or Gold. Oh and Debuffs on the Monk. Hey we can GIVE people Mutagen without a Feat in PF2 right?

2) I'm iffy on Poison. It still feels like something you have to know will work and there's a lot of Immunites running around. VS Bandits, yeah sure. VS Undead or any not living creature, meh brew up some fire.

3) I predict and am open to being wrong, a lot of Concections being ported over as the "New Elixirs". They were either too buried in Splats or not worth it in PF1. I'm interested and seeing what changes.

4) Mark, does this mean you FIXED the whole confusing issue about Flurry of Blows and Natural Weapons? Or just Natural Weapons + Unarmed? Or just Natural Weapons in general?

(I know you were talking to Mark probably but I am chiming in)

1) I was thinking that you'd get more than one mutegen but each would come at some nontrivial resonance cost. I could be wrong on that count.
2) I am also SUPER iffy on poison. For a poison to take effect, the FIRST attack made with a weapon has to hit (I believe) and then the monster has to fail the save against the poison. If I may make some math assumptions: I am guessing that getting any kind of benefit out of a poison is about as half as likely to take effect (edit: as compared to competing alchemical items like bombs). That is a rough ol' time. I would prefer to use poisons if they either required no save, had some kind of effect on success, or would not be used on a miss (though that would still put ranged poisoners in a tough spot).
3) I have no opinion on this but I look forward to seeing what is in the book and what kinds of things (if any) a alchemist can do to improve elixirs from their base versions.
4) The article actually talks about bestial mutagens and says it effects unarmed attacks specifically (rather than saying it effect "natural weapons"). As an additional aside: I am very interested to hear that natural attacks and unarmed attacks are operating as the same thing.

Designer

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Excaliburproxy is correct that you can have lots of mutagens; it's not like in PF1 where if you brew another, the old one ends or anything like that. They are just a crazy and cool type of elixir with a few of their own twists. In playtest, it was not uncommon for the alchemist to ask the party if any of the PCs were interested in certain benefits that came with drawbacks and for most of the party to take him up on it and receive a handy dandy mutagen.


Mark Seifter wrote:
Excaliburproxy is correct that you can have lots of mutagens; it's not like in PF1 where if you brew another, the old one ends or anything like that. They are just a crazy and cool type of elixir with a few of their own twists. In playtest, it was not uncommon for the alchemist to ask the party if any of the PCs were interested in certain benefits that came with drawbacks and for most of the party to take him up on it and receive a handy dandy mutagen.

Do mutagens last indefinitely?

Silver Crusade

Mark Seifter wrote:
JRutterbush wrote:
Mark Seifter wrote:
Monks tend to love bestial mutagen.
So, I'm guessing you've simplified natural attacks to just count as unarmed attacks then?
Natural attacks and unarmed strikes are consolidated into one nice and consistent package, so whether you're using a fist, or a claw, or a crane flutter, or whatever, you only have to learn it once (also they work similarly to other weapons in most ways, so maybe you only have to learn it 0 times if you know the weapons? That just sounds weird though).

I imagine one major benefit of this + the resonance system is that now a +1 Amulet of Mighty Fists (or whatever the PF2 equivalent is) really can be exactly equal in price and effect to a +1 Longsword

Designer

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Joe M. wrote:
Mark Seifter wrote:
JRutterbush wrote:
Mark Seifter wrote:
Monks tend to love bestial mutagen.
So, I'm guessing you've simplified natural attacks to just count as unarmed attacks then?
Natural attacks and unarmed strikes are consolidated into one nice and consistent package, so whether you're using a fist, or a claw, or a crane flutter, or whatever, you only have to learn it once (also they work similarly to other weapons in most ways, so maybe you only have to learn it 0 times if you know the weapons? That just sounds weird though).
I imagine one major benefit of this + the resonance system is that now a +1 Amulet of Mighty Fists (or whatever the PF2 equivalent is) really can be exactly equal in price and effect to a +1 Longsword

Mrgrgr, razzle frazzle natural attack/unarmed extra attacks per round forcing extra costs for monks. But no more!


Mark Seifter wrote:
Joe M. wrote:
Mark Seifter wrote:
JRutterbush wrote:
Mark Seifter wrote:
Monks tend to love bestial mutagen.
So, I'm guessing you've simplified natural attacks to just count as unarmed attacks then?
Natural attacks and unarmed strikes are consolidated into one nice and consistent package, so whether you're using a fist, or a claw, or a crane flutter, or whatever, you only have to learn it once (also they work similarly to other weapons in most ways, so maybe you only have to learn it 0 times if you know the weapons? That just sounds weird though).
I imagine one major benefit of this + the resonance system is that now a +1 Amulet of Mighty Fists (or whatever the PF2 equivalent is) really can be exactly equal in price and effect to a +1 Longsword
Mrgrgr, razzle frazzle natural attack/unarmed extra attacks per round forcing extra costs for monks. But no more!

Haha. What? Really? I am shocked if this doesn't cause a problem somewhere in the game's system. This makes me very interested in knowing how two weapon fighting will work, how it will interact with unarmed combat, and how it will be balanced in the 3 action economy.


Mark Seifter wrote:
Excaliburproxy is correct that you can have lots of mutagens; it's not like in PF1 where if you brew another, the old one ends or anything like that. They are just a crazy and cool type of elixir with a few of their own twists. In playtest, it was not uncommon for the alchemist to ask the party if any of the PCs were interested in certain benefits that came with drawbacks and for most of the party to take him up on it and receive a handy dandy mutagen.

So how many Liquid items do we have now and how many Feats/Traits/Ablities might target all of them?

Because I kept getting different answers on Potions vs Extracts for some feats, traits and items.


Juda de Kerioth wrote:

ahhh alchemy :(

I wish paizo make it like in the witcher video game, with toxicity, so you could use a little ammount of alchemical items per level.

As a houseruler, i use Vitality (con score + fort base) and every potion has a toxicity equal spell level (even cure wounds potions). amd toxicity reduce your max vitality score.

So, once you get at half your vitality score, i apply the rules from pathfinder unchained wound treshold (p. 136).

I hope you read my comment and consider this at least as an optional rule.

Doesn't make any balance sense to me.

You can have an infinite amount of magical buffs (practically limited only to how many you can get cast on you before the first ones start running out) but too much alchemy in a day damages you?


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Mark Seifter wrote:
Joe M. wrote:
Mark Seifter wrote:
JRutterbush wrote:
Mark Seifter wrote:
Monks tend to love bestial mutagen.
So, I'm guessing you've simplified natural attacks to just count as unarmed attacks then?
Natural attacks and unarmed strikes are consolidated into one nice and consistent package, so whether you're using a fist, or a claw, or a crane flutter, or whatever, you only have to learn it once (also they work similarly to other weapons in most ways, so maybe you only have to learn it 0 times if you know the weapons? That just sounds weird though).
I imagine one major benefit of this + the resonance system is that now a +1 Amulet of Mighty Fists (or whatever the PF2 equivalent is) really can be exactly equal in price and effect to a +1 Longsword
Mrgrgr, razzle frazzle natural attack/unarmed extra attacks per round forcing extra costs for monks. But no more!

Bug report: I can only favorite this post once.

Scarab Sages

RangerWickett wrote:

I was hoping for tripwires, landmines, and stuff like that. Maybe it's my old like of 4e, where you could set up a hazard and have your buddy shove an enemy into it. Or maybe that's combining alchemy with Craft (traps) or something.

Still, this is cool.

Seems like that would more be aligned with the Rogue Class.


Mark Seifter wrote:
Joe M. wrote:
Mark Seifter wrote:
JRutterbush wrote:
Mark Seifter wrote:
Monks tend to love bestial mutagen.
So, I'm guessing you've simplified natural attacks to just count as unarmed attacks then?
Natural attacks and unarmed strikes are consolidated into one nice and consistent package, so whether you're using a fist, or a claw, or a crane flutter, or whatever, you only have to learn it once (also they work similarly to other weapons in most ways, so maybe you only have to learn it 0 times if you know the weapons? That just sounds weird though).
I imagine one major benefit of this + the resonance system is that now a +1 Amulet of Mighty Fists (or whatever the PF2 equivalent is) really can be exactly equal in price and effect to a +1 Longsword
Mrgrgr, razzle frazzle natural attack/unarmed extra attacks per round forcing extra costs for monks. But no more!

“Mrgrgr”? Is that a . . . Bravely Default reference?! Please tell it is! You’d officially be my favorite person ever!


Mark is for usre one of my fav designers.

Designer

3 people marked this as a favorite.
ElSilverWind wrote:
Mark Seifter wrote:
Joe M. wrote:
Mark Seifter wrote:
JRutterbush wrote:
Mark Seifter wrote:
Monks tend to love bestial mutagen.
So, I'm guessing you've simplified natural attacks to just count as unarmed attacks then?
Natural attacks and unarmed strikes are consolidated into one nice and consistent package, so whether you're using a fist, or a claw, or a crane flutter, or whatever, you only have to learn it once (also they work similarly to other weapons in most ways, so maybe you only have to learn it 0 times if you know the weapons? That just sounds weird though).
I imagine one major benefit of this + the resonance system is that now a +1 Amulet of Mighty Fists (or whatever the PF2 equivalent is) really can be exactly equal in price and effect to a +1 Longsword
Mrgrgr, razzle frazzle natural attack/unarmed extra attacks per round forcing extra costs for monks. But no more!
“Mrgrgr”? Is that a . . . Bravely Default reference?! Please tell it is! You’d officially be my favorite person ever!

Ideally. Although honestly that pun was harder to see until they changed the way they pronounced the name.


Mark Seifter wrote:
ElSilverWind wrote:
Mark Seifter wrote:
Joe M. wrote:
Mark Seifter wrote:
JRutterbush wrote:
Mark Seifter wrote:
Monks tend to love bestial mutagen.
So, I'm guessing you've simplified natural attacks to just count as unarmed attacks then?
Natural attacks and unarmed strikes are consolidated into one nice and consistent package, so whether you're using a fist, or a claw, or a crane flutter, or whatever, you only have to learn it once (also they work similarly to other weapons in most ways, so maybe you only have to learn it 0 times if you know the weapons? That just sounds weird though).
I imagine one major benefit of this + the resonance system is that now a +1 Amulet of Mighty Fists (or whatever the PF2 equivalent is) really can be exactly equal in price and effect to a +1 Longsword
Mrgrgr, razzle frazzle natural attack/unarmed extra attacks per round forcing extra costs for monks. But no more!
“Mrgrgr”? Is that a . . . Bravely Default reference?! Please tell it is! You’d officially be my favorite person ever!
Ideally. Although honestly that pun was harder to see until they changed the way they pronounced the name.

Just one more post about it so that I don’t derail the thread further. You are confirmed my favorite person.

The pronounciation change was a bit silly to me. Now every time they say her name, all I can hear is “I’m Idiot Lee!”. Which I found to be “Unnacceptable!”

*off to build Agnes as a Shelyn Cleric with the Air and Good Domains*


QuidEst wrote:
Excaliburproxy wrote:
If they just step up in damage size then I don’t think that would suit the goal of making them useful to non-alchemists.
I don’t think “bombs should remain useful to any class through high levels” will be a goal of the game. Alchemical items in general, sure.

I'm just hoping they'll allow poison formula's for other classes, or at the very least for the assassin prestige class.

Liberty's Edge

Runehacking wrote:
I'm just hoping they'll allow poison formula's for other classes, or at the very least for the assassin prestige class.

All Formulas are allowed for all Classes. It's just a single Skill Feat for non-Alchemists to get the ability to make Alchemy formulas.

Now, they have to spend gold, and bombs specifically do more damage in the hands of an Alchemist, but they're universally available from level 2 onward (level 1 for Rogues).

Prestige Classes existing is the only part of your post that's uncertain.


My money is on an assassin archetype. Pop it on anyclass, and you’ve got class feat options for poison, stealth, and eventually some sort of death attack. (Kill on a crit fail, mess them up on a failed save, and inconvenience them on a normal success.)

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