Goblins!

Monday, April 2, 2018

Ever since the goblin song from page 12 of 2007's Pathfinder Adventure Path #1: Burnt Offerings, goblins have been a key part of what makes Pathfinder recognizable as Pathfinder. When we first started looking at what would become the ancestries in the Pathfinder Playtest Rulebook, we knew that we wanted to add something to the mix, to broaden the horizon of what it meant to be a hero in Pathfinder. That naturally brought us to goblins.

The trick was finding a way to let you play a goblin who has the feel of a Pathfinder goblin, but who is also a little bit softer around the edges—a character who has a reason to work with a group of "longshanks," as opposed to trying to light them on fire at the first opportunity. Let's look at an excerpt from the goblin ancestry to find out a bit more.

Illustration by Wayne Reynolds

As a people, goblins have spent millennia feared, maligned, and even hunted—and sometimes for understandable reasons, as some rural goblin tribes still often direct cruelty, raiding, and mayhem toward wandering or vulnerable creatures. In recent decades, however, a new sort of hero has emerged from among these rough-and-tumble tribes. Such goblins bear the same oversized heads, pointed ears, red eyes, and jagged teeth of their crueler kin, but they have a noble or savvy streak that other goblins can't even imagine, let alone understand. These erstwhile heroes roam Golarion, often maintaining their distinctive cultural habits while spreading the enthusiasm, inscrutable quirkiness, love of puns and song, and unique mirth that mark goblin adventurers.

Despite breaking from their destructive past, goblin adventurers often subtly perpetuate some of the qualities that have been characteristics of the creatures for millennia. They tend to flock to strong leaders, and fiercely protect those companions who have protected them from physical harm or who offer a sympathetic ear and sage advice when they learn of the goblins' woes. Some goblins remain deeply fascinated with fire, or fearlessly devour meals that might turn others' stomachs. Others are inveterate tinkerers and view their companions' trash as components of gadgets yet to be made. Occasionally, fellow adventurers find these proclivities unsettling or odd, but more often than not goblins' friends consider these qualities endearing.

The entry in the Pathfinder Playtest Rulebook has plenty more to say on the topic, but that should give you a sense of where we are taking Pathfinder's favorite troublemakers.

In addition to the story behind the goblin, its ancestry entry has a lot of other information as well to help you make a goblin player character. It includes the base goblin ability boosts (Dexterity and Charisma), ability flaw (Wisdom), bonus Hit Points (6), base speed (25 feet), and starting languages (Common and Goblin), as well as the rules for darkvision (an ability that lets goblins see in the dark just as well as they can see in normal light). Those are just the basics—the rules shared by all goblins. Beyond that, your goblin's unique ancestry allows you to choose one ability score other than Dexterity or Charisma to receive a boost. Perhaps you have some hobgoblin blood and have an additional boost to Constitution, or you descend from a long line of goblin alchemists and have a boost to Intelligence. You could even gain a boost in Wisdom to negate your flaw!

Then you get into the goblin ancestry feats, which allow you to decide what type of goblin you want to play. Starting off, let's look at Burn It. This feat gives you a bonus to damage whenever you cast a fire spell or deal fire damage with an alchemical item. On top of that, it also increases any persistent fire damage you deal by 1. Goblins still love watching things burn.

Next up is one of my favorites, Junk Tinkerer. A goblin with this feat can craft ordinary items and weapons out of junk and scrap they can find almost anywhere. Sure, the items are of poor quality and break easily, but you will never be without a weapon if you have this feat.

We could not have goblins in the game without adding the Razor Teeth feat. This grants you an attack with your mouthful of razor-sharp teeth that deals 1d6 piercing damage. To be honest, the target of your attack should probably also attempt a Fortitude save against whatever you ate last night that is still stuck between your teeth, but we'll leave that for the GM to decide.

Finally, there is the appropriately named feat Very Sneaky. This lets you move 5 feet farther when you take an action to sneak (which normally lets you move at only half your normal speed) and potentially renders your target flat-footed against a follow-up strike!

There are plenty of other goblin feats for you to choose from, but that's all we have time for today. Come back on Friday when we'll look at some of the feats from the other ancestries in the game!

Jason Bulmahn
Director of Game Design

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Tags: Pathfinder Playtest Wayne Reynolds
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Souls At War wrote:

I still want to know if we will get a "We Be Goblin" AP?

For those "who won't be buying it", you said your points, there are no need for you to post about that again in this thread or any other about it.

I probably wouldn't buy it, but that's ok. I'm not really feeling War for the Crown, or Hell's Vengeance either. Not every adventure path needs to appeal to everyone. That's a recipe for making everything bland and boring.

It just needs to appeal to enough people to make a profit, and hopefully appeal enough to the writers that they enjoy making it.


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People seem to be mystifying the concept of "Core", the Core Rules are nothing but the rules that we get from the get go, rules that are not in an expansion that is all. They are not special or take priority over future expansions they are just things we get in the first rulebook.


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Biztak wrote:

People seem to be mystifying the concept of "Core", the Core Rules are nothing but the rules that we get from the get go, rules that are not in an expansion that is all. They are not special or take priority over future expansions they are just things we get in the first rulebook.

Unfortunately, for those of us who play a lot of organized Society play, goblins in the core rules means they are very likely to be a legal race option in organized play. That's what I am against. Goblins as PCs in home campaigns are just fine with me.


My only issue with goblins is the +2 CHA, I am really looking forward to see what can they bring to the table, mechanical or lore wise.

pjrogers wrote:
Biztak wrote:

People seem to be mystifying the concept of "Core", the Core Rules are nothing but the rules that we get from the get go, rules that are not in an expansion that is all. They are not special or take priority over future expansions they are just things we get in the first rulebook.

Unfortunately, for those of us who play a lot of organized Society play, goblins in the core rules means they are very likely to be a legal race option in organized play. That's what I am against. Goblins as PCs in home campaigns are just fine with me.

"In PFS every PC can only be created under explicit consent of the GM"

Problem solved.


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pjrogers wrote:
Unfortunately, for those of us who play a lot of organized Society play, goblins in the core rules means they are very likely to be a legal race option in organized play. That's what I am against. Goblins as PCs in home campaigns are just fine with me.

So who will protect me from the playable gnomes in my organized play?

Silver Crusade

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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
pjrogers wrote:
Biztak wrote:

People seem to be mystifying the concept of "Core", the Core Rules are nothing but the rules that we get from the get go, rules that are not in an expansion that is all. They are not special or take priority over future expansions they are just things we get in the first rulebook.

Unfortunately, for those of us who play a lot of organized Society play, goblins in the core rules means they are very likely to be a legal race option in organized play. That's what I am against. Goblins as PCs in home campaigns are just fine with me.

If I had to deal with a human alchemist worshipper of Angazhan and his barely repressed rage issues which was perfectly pathfinder society legal thanks to Chaotic Neutral being a valid alignment, I'm sure you can survive a few goblins learning to read.

Heck, you might even grow to like some of them.


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William Werminster wrote:

My only issue with goblins is the +2 CHA, I am really looking forward to see what can they bring to the table, mechanical or lore wise.

pjrogers wrote:
Biztak wrote:

People seem to be mystifying the concept of "Core", the Core Rules are nothing but the rules that we get from the get go, rules that are not in an expansion that is all. They are not special or take priority over future expansions they are just things we get in the first rulebook.

Unfortunately, for those of us who play a lot of organized Society play, goblins in the core rules means they are very likely to be a legal race option in organized play. That's what I am against. Goblins as PCs in home campaigns are just fine with me.

"In PFS every PC can only be created under explicit consent of the GM"

Problem solved.

That works well in AL, where the culture is already established that a GM has a lot more control over the game, but the PFS culture is very different and that rule would not work well in the current PFS culture.

However, we don't yet know what future PFS rules will be, and I'm a strong proponent that we should not base the rule books on what PFS may or may not rule. Society play is very different from home games, and we shouldn't include or exclude things from books just because society play may or may not want it. If PFS doesn't want something, they just ban it. There's a giant list of things banned from PFS, from nearly every book Paizo has released.

PFS even has a list of "core rules" that are banned. So just because something is in the core rule book, doesn't mean it's automatically allowed in PFS.

However, even with that, I strongly suspect that goblins will be allowed in PFS, and there will likely be some events in the next few APs or PFS scenarios that will reflect the change in culture.


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There were too many nerfbats applied thanks to PFS as it is. It would stink to base any future non-organized play material either primarily or solely upon how it would work in an organized play environment.

Grand Lodge

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William Werminster wrote:

"In PFS every PC can only be created under explicit consent of the GM"

Problem solved.

William, I see you haven't played PFS yet, so let me explain to you that the "GM" in this case is campaign leadership. Now, I believe that it has not yet been decided whether PFS 2 will allow goblins. We've disallowed a number of Core options in PFS 1, so there's precedent for the campaign excluding an option.

So for those of you in PFS who love goblins, you know that everyone's going to be paying attention to the Playtest. If it works there, then yes, goblins will likely be part of PFS. It all depends on how well my fellow goblin players act. I'm hoping that those who are dubious now will be pleasantly surprised.

Aldarc wrote:
So who will protect me from the playable gnomes in my organized play?

Hey!!! We're quite nice when you get to know us, just a bit eccentric.

Hmm


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graystone wrote:
LittleMissNaga wrote:
Mostly I expect that because I'm here to play a game and have fun, not be punished and picked on because a GM declared my fun to be wrong. That's not fun. I'd find another GM and have my fun with them.
Not everyone's fun is equal, especially when you go in knowing that your fun is stepping on others fun: if you know the DM doesn't like goblins, it seem odd to want to play one.

I'd prefer everyone's fun was equal, actually. Thanks.

As I said, I'd find a GM that works with what I want, and for that matter a whole group that works together, rather than try to play with people who shut down my fun, or try to foist my fun upon people who don't want it.

It's fine to not like the same stuff I do. That just means we shouldn't be in a group together. Not that my fun is less than equal.


Hmm wrote:

Hey!!! We're quite nice when you get to know us, just a bit eccentric.

Hmm

My favorite is still the gnome who walked around with a faux beard made of cat fur attached to this face, insisting he was a dwarf. Quite eccentric, indeed!

Scarab Sages

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BretI wrote:
graystone wrote:
BretI wrote:
If Legend Lore starts bringing up Goblin heroes, people with power are going to notice.
Does the local populous have access to those kind of spells though? And would they even know to ASK about goblin heroes? The king knowing about goblin heroes doesn't matter a LOT on the local level.
I would expect most rulers of countries to have access to something like that, yes.

Sure.

BretI wrote:
I would expect them to be able to send out animal messengers with memos informing the people under them of the change.

This is not typical of leaders in any published Pathfinder material out there except for maybe Andoran or on a local level of a small village. But nation leaders don't send out memo's to their people.

BretI wrote:
When I played Kingmaker, one of the things our group did was make sure every settlement had someone who could provide an animal messenger or equivalent. That was done so that we as rulers could stay informed of problems.

Just because you as players did it, doe snot mean its canon for Pathfinder for leaders to do something like this. Just because they can, does not mean they deem that use of resources worth the effort with everything else they have to do.

This is not a very good convincing argument in my opinion.


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CraziFuzzy wrote:

Look, I never said that Goblins shouldn't be a core race - I said that the reasoning of them having strong brand identity was poor game design. If they added other 'new' races, especially ones that are far more populous in typical 'class-based' form, it would be much easier to swallow.

Get rid of half-elf, get rid of half-orc, implement half-breeds in the heritage feat system, and make the 8 core races as such:
Dwarf; Elf; Gnome; Goblin; Halfling; Human; Kobold; Orc

This, I like.

But it would probably be even more controversial and require a lot of reworking. I just don't really find the half-races all that interesting.


Pathfinder Maps, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Tallow wrote:
BretI wrote:
I would expect them to be able to send out animal messengers with memos informing the people under them of the change.
This is not typical of leaders in any published Pathfinder material out there except for maybe Andoran or on a local level of a small village. But nation leaders don't send out memo's to their people.

There is at least one adventure path where the rebels have access to about a dozen magic items that do the equivalent.

Tallow wrote:
BretI wrote:
When I played Kingmaker, one of the things our group did was make sure every settlement had someone who could provide an animal messenger or equivalent. That was done so that we as rulers could stay informed of problems.

Just because you as players did it, doe snot mean its canon for Pathfinder for leaders to do something like this. Just because they can, does not mean they deem that use of resources worth the effort with everything else they have to do.

This is not a very good convincing argument in my opinion.

It is a second level spell. It is doing things that historians speculate the oracles of ancient times may have done. I really didn't think it a revolutionary idea.

Unfortunately, I do not own nor have I played any of the APs that would answer the question. I would hope that either Hell's Vengeance or War of the Crown would have some mention of the expected communication systems.


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Carrier pigeons.


There have been some hints that the Goblins in Golarion will have an in-lore reason to be more accepted in the setting and to those that think that that is too hand-wavy (and I'm not sure I disagree) the post mention of "rural goblin tribes" makes me think that Goblins in the end might not be so different after all.


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Quote:
If only there was an opportunity to weave examples of these new good goblins into an upcoming AP...

Coming up with an excuse after the fact doesn't do much good. That's one of the things that makes it handwavium.


Aldarc wrote:
Corrik wrote:
Who have been unmentioned until Jason thought to make Goblins core. And that is the issue. Goblins have not had a heroic presence, marking their entry to core as over due. We haven't had a lovable Goblin iconic running around since the Advanced Player's Guide. We have a few Society NPCs. We don't have notable examples of neutral or good goblin settlements. We have a keep were 17 of them do menial labor, and 2 monsters cities where they are still barely tolerated. We have image after image after image of goblins taking joy in killing people and burning their homes down. But now, somehow, they have a massive PR boost across the lands.

If only there was an opportunity to weave examples of these new good goblins into an upcoming AP...

Quote:
Kobolds and Orcs have been working on their PR image for decades. If only they had invested in handwavium.
Just like with goblins, a lot of that PR happens outside of the game and in the hearts of players and developers. It's what happened to orcs in Warcraft. In Warcraft 3 - arguably the most important game in the franchise in terms of establishing the universe as popularly conceived - orcs got a new backstory with their peaceful shamanistic existence being corrupted by a newly devised Burning Legion. This was not there before. (But we can also talk about other in-universe handwaviums between WC1 and WC2 and between WC2 and WC3 and between WC3 and WoW.) As a result the game featured a shift from the marauding Horde of WC1-2 days to a "noble savage" Horde. But what spurred this? Blizzard loved the funny voices and lines that Rob Pardo dubbed for the orc units in Warcraft 2, particularly the peon and grunt units. That was it. As a result orcs received a handwavium. People scarcely recall this now. People scarcely look back far enough. And far less people care. Warcraft 3 is probably the most beloved of the Warcraft RTS series, and people loved the new orcs. Things change.

Here's the rub about the shift to noble savage warcraft Orcs: Everyone else in universe didn't just accept it. Most of the RoC orc campaign is you fighting various humans who (fairly rightfully) don't just take Thrall at his word that "fo real guys, us orcs are totally different now," Further that's not helped by Grom and the Warsong in general who still act like the old horde minus the demons. It takes a freaking demonic invasion and an ancient prophet figure to get Jaina's refugees begrudingly working with Thrall's crew. Helping with that certainly worked well for getting the orcs accepted but even then there were significant amounts of people who remembered the old horde's actions and did not accept that they had really changed (the bonus Frozen Throne campaign with Admiral Proudmoore's vendetta).*

In other words, the Horde may have gotten a noble savage touchup in WC3, but they had to earn their wider acceptance among the civilized races. PF Goblins haven't done that.

*Note, I haven't played WoW so I can't talk much about what's happened there.


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Tieflings and aasimar seem to clearly capable ancestries within every race. Rather than make them a race unto themselves, the simple solution is to have such ancestry be an option across the board. Tack on the variations of celestial and fiendish ancestry to the 'base species' and the varieties of life are retained without having to make entirely new races, freeing up space for more base races instead.

Similarly half-humans really should be an ancestry of their own accord. Could even mix it up. Elf with human ancestry and human with elf ancestry, for one pair of examples, are not necessarily identical given the variations on the theme presented via various alternative racial features over the past several years.


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Quote:
The reason Goblins are included is because they are part of Paizo's and Golarion's Identity people associate them with the game, its not a publicity stunt is just them asserting that part of their identity.

No, it's them shoving their mascot in to core.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I imagine that if Bestiary entries do not have room for Player Character stats/Ancestries, there will likely be the PF2 version of the Advanced Race Guide come out real soon after the core book.

Sovereign Court

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Pathfinder Starfinder Society Subscriber
Corrik wrote:
Quote:
If only there was an opportunity to weave examples of these new good goblins into an upcoming AP...
Coming up with an excuse after the fact doesn't do much good. That's one of the things that makes it handwavium.

Those APs will be published before second edition, though...


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Corrik wrote:
Quote:
The reason Goblins are included is because they are part of Paizo's and Golarion's Identity people associate them with the game, its not a publicity stunt is just them asserting that part of their identity.
No, it's them shoving their mascot in to core.

To be fair, it's THEIR world, not Gygax's.

Scarab Sages

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BretI wrote:
Tallow wrote:
BretI wrote:
I would expect them to be able to send out animal messengers with memos informing the people under them of the change.
This is not typical of leaders in any published Pathfinder material out there except for maybe Andoran or on a local level of a small village. But nation leaders don't send out memo's to their people.

There is at least one adventure path where the rebels have access to about a dozen magic items that do the equivalent.

Tallow wrote:
BretI wrote:
When I played Kingmaker, one of the things our group did was make sure every settlement had someone who could provide an animal messenger or equivalent. That was done so that we as rulers could stay informed of problems.

Just because you as players did it, doe snot mean its canon for Pathfinder for leaders to do something like this. Just because they can, does not mean they deem that use of resources worth the effort with everything else they have to do.

This is not a very good convincing argument in my opinion.

It is a second level spell. It is doing things that historians speculate the oracles of ancient times may have done. I really didn't think it a revolutionary idea.

Unfortunately, I do not own nor have I played any of the APs that would answer the question. I would hope that either Hell's Vengeance or War of the Crown would have some mention of the expected communication systems.

The common tactic in governing a country in a time period similar to where Golarion is set, is to keep the populace as happily ignorant of things as you can. Essentially, if it fits the narrative of the King to tell his people that Goblins are friendly, then he will make sure the word gets out. If it doesn't fit his governing narrative, he won't. If he's neutral about it, he likely won't, because he doesn't care if a typically evil race gets killed by adventurers and townfolk alike, just as they have always done and will continue to do with all the other evil races.

Even in today's world, our government only feeds us the narrative they want us to hear, and if it weren't for some journalists, we would never actually hear the truth.

I would not expect Thrune to be telling her people much of anything that doesn't fit the narrative of Thrune being all powerful, fear her! I would not expect Stavian to be telling his people much of anything other than he's the rightful ruler and any information that doesn't help facilitate that narrative won't be communicated at all.

So no, even with magic, unless you have a particular benevolent ruler who willingly accepts all creatures as equal and wants to help the plight of the goodly adventuring goblins, you just aren't going to have leaders of nations spending resources to communicate this sort of information to their population at large.


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KingOfAnything wrote:
Corrik wrote:
Quote:
If only there was an opportunity to weave examples of these new good goblins into an upcoming AP...
Coming up with an excuse after the fact doesn't do much good. That's one of the things that makes it handwavium.

Those APs will be published before second edition, though...

Immediately before. Where have all of these hero goblins been in the Paizo material before this? Telling me a god passed out a memo making goblins core just in time for 2e hardly disqualifies for handwavium. This is an idea thought up after the fact, with little to no current in-universe explanation or evidence. What little there is, is better demonstrated by other options.


Corrik wrote:
Coming up with an excuse after the fact doesn't do much good. That's one of the things that makes it handwavium.

After the fact or concurrent with the fact?

Tarik Blackhands wrote:

Here's the rub about the shift to noble savage warcraft Orcs: Everyone else in universe didn't just accept it. Most of the RoC orc campaign is you fighting various humans who (fairly rightfully) don't just take Thrall at his word that "fo real guys, us orcs are totally different now," Further that's not helped by Grom and the Warsong in general who still act like the old horde minus the demons. It takes a freaking demonic invasion and an ancient prophet figure to get Jaina's refugees begrudingly working with Thrall's crew. Helping with that certainly worked well for getting the orcs accepted but even then there were significant amounts of people who remembered the old horde's actions and did not accept that they had really changed (the bonus Frozen Throne campaign with Admiral Proudmoore's vendetta).*

In other words, the Horde may have gotten a noble savage touchup in WC3, but they had to earn their wider acceptance among the civilized races. PF Goblins haven't done that.

*Note, I haven't played WoW so I can't talk much about what's happened there.

You're right that not everyone in the universe accepted the orcs. (And orcs were distrustful of humans.) But on the whole how are those people - including Admiral Proudmoore - depicted by the "text" in WC3? It's not very flattering. But the larger point is that the shift did happen, and the orcs did receive a handwavium to their backstory because Blizzard was enchanted by their comical unit text from WC2.


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Wild Spirit wrote:
Corrik wrote:
Quote:
The reason Goblins are included is because they are part of Paizo's and Golarion's Identity people associate them with the game, its not a publicity stunt is just them asserting that part of their identity.
No, it's them shoving their mascot in to core.
To be fair, it's THEIR world, not Gygax's.

Then why leave the rest of the core races unaffected and while just shoving in their mascot? Why not change things, update them so it better matches their world?


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Corrik wrote:
Wild Spirit wrote:
Corrik wrote:
Quote:
The reason Goblins are included is because they are part of Paizo's and Golarion's Identity people associate them with the game, its not a publicity stunt is just them asserting that part of their identity.
No, it's them shoving their mascot in to core.
To be fair, it's THEIR world, not Gygax's.
Then why leave the rest of the core races unaffected and while just shoving in their mascot? Why not change things, update them so it better matches their world?

Because they can do whatever they like. If I see a cake recipe I like, it's up to me if I leave out raisins or add in almonds. It my cake really similar? Undoubtedly. Is what I put in my cake only and only up to me? Definitely!


Aldarc wrote:
Corrik wrote:
Coming up with an excuse after the fact doesn't do much good. That's one of the things that makes it handwavium.

After the fact or concurrent with the fact?

Tarik Blackhands wrote:

Here's the rub about the shift to noble savage warcraft Orcs: Everyone else in universe didn't just accept it. Most of the RoC orc campaign is you fighting various humans who (fairly rightfully) don't just take Thrall at his word that "fo real guys, us orcs are totally different now," Further that's not helped by Grom and the Warsong in general who still act like the old horde minus the demons. It takes a freaking demonic invasion and an ancient prophet figure to get Jaina's refugees begrudingly working with Thrall's crew. Helping with that certainly worked well for getting the orcs accepted but even then there were significant amounts of people who remembered the old horde's actions and did not accept that they had really changed (the bonus Frozen Throne campaign with Admiral Proudmoore's vendetta).*

In other words, the Horde may have gotten a noble savage touchup in WC3, but they had to earn their wider acceptance among the civilized races. PF Goblins haven't done that.

*Note, I haven't played WoW so I can't talk much about what's happened there.

You're right that not everyone in the universe accepted the orcs. (And orcs were distrustful of humans.) But on the whole how are those people - including Admiral Proudmoore - depicted by the "text" in WC3? It's not very flattering. But the larger point is that the shift did happen, and the orcs did receive a handwavium to their backstory because Blizzard was enchanted by their comical unit text from WC2.

The Admiral is certainly presented as least mildly nuts in his grudgeholding, but he's never out and out presented as a villain (look at his death bit with Jaina mourning him and Rexxar claiming him to be a proud man in a noninsulting manner). As for in RoC? Jaina's people are certainly not shown as villains considering basically every single time they're the ones who got attacked by the Horde in the first place (generally some permutation of Grom charging off axes first). In RoC, the humans have a damn good reason not to give Thrall the time of day before Mediv throws his authority around and it's not (only) old hatreds like Proudmoore.

Either way, the fact of the matter remains. WC3 orcs got their cultural shift handwaved into existence and then about two campaigns worth of development to have them not (usually) get stabbed on sight by humans/elves. PF goblins haven't gotten either of those. So far we have "Some of them aren't so bad" and we're expected to presume that's enough to overcome every other instance of goblins being psychotic pyromaniacs that have been shown to us so far which a lot of people don't buy. Show a cultural shift, a risen good goblin deity, or a stand against some demonic invasion equiv along with a block of fluff about working on wider acceptance and then we can talk about wider goblin acceptance.

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