Class Preview: The Solarian

A thousand years from now, Golarion was saved.

A thousand years ago, Golarion will be lost.

I understood that reference.

QuidEst wrote:

I was initially unimpressed by Crush, but I realized that there are some nice situations. Any time an enemy has a heavy-duty weapon that takes a full action to fire, the trade suddenly becomes much better. Grab something useful to do with your move action, and force them into using a weaker backup weapon. Similarly, if any converted bestiary creatures show up, those might use traditional full attacks with natural weapons.

Our mainly photon solarian occasionally started using graviton control powers in situations like these, especially in a couple of fights against lower-Fort and highly mobile threats; in addition to the situations you identified, crush was hugely crippling against a pair of faceless stalker operatives since the one under the effects couldn't trick attack and lost much of their damage, which was a much larger percentage of the damage for the foes than the solarian lost, particularly since he had stellar rush to keep mobile and attack even without his move action (and since the party focused fire and killed the non-crushed one). It was always a weird shock for the party when he went graviton because of how often he went photon, but he was very clever about when to use it and it was always really effective because of that. He also got even crazier when he was working together with the envoy, but that was true every time.

It is nice to read about the possibilities and versatility

I'm extremely happy to see abilities that will be useful some of the time, leading to more variety of tactics. I'M always most pleased when something can be used with cleverness by my players.

I'm extremely happy to see abilities that will be useful some of the time, leading to more variety of tactics. I'M always most pleased when something can be used with cleverness by my players.

It's pretty important when designing an at-will ability. An at-will ability that's too overwhelming can just turn a character into a one-note spammer of that ability, whereas a situationally powerful suite of abilities gives you a wider variety of play experience.

Hey Mark, how often do Solarions get new revelations? Can I get a second manifestation and have solar armor and weapon, or dual wield? Is the choice of armor or weapon set at level 1, or can I change it when manifested?

Reckless wrote:

I'm extremely happy to see abilities that will be useful some of the time, leading to more variety of tactics. I'M always most pleased when something can be used with cleverness by my players.

It's pretty important when designing an at-will ability. An at-will ability that's too overwhelming can just turn a character into a one-note spammer of that ability, whereas a situationally powerful suite of abilities gives you a wider variety of play experience.

Ah, Hey there, Slumber Hex. Yeah, did you hear? Mark Seifter was talking about you.

Mark Seifter wrote:

Reckless wrote:

I'm extremely happy to see abilities that will be useful some of the time, leading to more variety of tactics. I'M always most pleased when something can be used with cleverness by my players.

It's pretty important when designing an at-will ability. An at-will ability that's too overwhelming can just turn a character into a one-note spammer of that ability, whereas a situationally powerful suite of abilities gives you a wider variety of play experience.

Ah, Hey there, Slumber Hex. Yeah, did you hear? Mark Seifter was talking about you.

So I actually almost called out slumber hex by name but decided the point was stronger in the general. But yes. Yes.

Hey Mark, how often do Solarions get new revelations? Can I get a second manifestation and have solar armor and weapon, or dual wield? Is the choice of armor or weapon set at level 1, or can I change it when manifested?

You get a pretty high amount of revelations especially if you add the zenith ones to the mix. I feel like our solarian ended the playtest with more of them than his level counting zeniths. Book's not with me for specifics. I know there was a kasatha solarian in an office game that dual wielded a solar weapon and a kinetic manufactured weapon, but I didn't play more than one fight with that character in it; most of my experience was with my playtesters, and our vesk solarian was a beast with his solar blade and taking heavy armor proficiency, relying on stellar rush to counteract the lower movement speed.

faceless stalker operatives

I just Shatner'ed myself.

Cole Deschain wrote:

Aratrok wrote:

But it's also important to talk about what seems bad, or what could be improved.

This particular instance is a case of an individual who only ever seems to do this bit... frankly, this case is far more grounded than the one that preceded it and likely prompted the post you responded to, but humans are weird.

This is factually incorrect.

Allow me to draw your attention to the words in bold. You appear to have missed them.

we dont know the math may be its little bit more powerful than we think

We do know the math. The first page of the mystic has been shown off, so we've seen saves,

At 6th level, the solarion's DC for crush is 17(10+3+ 4 (for 18 or 19 in whatever stat), maybe 18 if they've already got a stat booster item.

We've also seen a selection of monsters in First Contact. Relying on save or suck is a VERY bad choice against most of them.

Add in guns as a basic option in this game (with scaling damage), and stagger means much less. Can it be situationally useful, if you're facing tricky operative things? Sure. But I'm skeptical of taking fixed decisions for circumstantial situations, especially when focused fire is still an option for the party.

Lensmen, Lanterns, Jedi, space monks. Good to see this type of trope in Starfinder.

As I was saying elsewhere, I could see Crush being a fairly potent way of shutting down spellcasters you can close to gap on, depending on how some of the action economy changes look. I'm not sure if casting defensively exists anymore, given the absence of Concentration, but I'll assume it would be brought down to a full action casting or something instead of being completely gone.

If so, that mage is going to have a fun time dealing with a solarian using Crush on them and wailing on them, particularly since their Fortitude save is probably bad. This also applies to any ranged creatures, which should have an even worse time dealing with trying to keep away from a melee specialist.

This was the class i was most excited about from the initial information that came out on the game but as more and more was previewed i started learning towards interest in the Mechanic. This preview is another huge setback for my interest in the class. Which is strange, the mindblade/soul knife/jedi vibe is a big deal for me, i love the concept, i have tried all kinds of ways to play the concept since 3.0. This preview just doesnt excite me that it will be any better at it than any of the previous classes that did the not!jedi thing. i am still curious about what else the class has but this tells me nothing about the parts i want to know about and the two powers previewed feel extremely situational. i am a little disappointed.

As I was saying elsewhere, I could see Crush being a fairly potent way of shutting down spellcasters you can close to gap on, depending on how some of the action economy changes look. I'm not sure if casting defensively exists anymore, given the absence of Concentration, but I'll assume it would be brought down to a full action casting or something instead of being completely gone.

If so, that mage is going to have a fun time dealing with a solarian using Crush on them and wailing on them, particularly since their Fortitude save is probably bad. This also applies to any ranged creatures, which should have an even worse time dealing with trying to keep away from a melee specialist.

This is exactly what happened in one fight. The boss caster couldn't Guarded Step away either because it's a move. Given the party also had a soldier and an operative switch-hitter, the solarian really screwed that caster over.

Really, I'm not sure why everyone dislikes the situational powers. From the sounds of it, the Solarion gets a lot of powers, so you can pick up plenty for every situation. The Slumber Hex was used as an example as what they're trying to avoid. Really, it's like complaining that the fly spell is situational in PF because it's only useful against melee characters that don't have a way to fly. Or that tripping is a useless tactic because it's so obsolete against a lot of enemies. In reality, they're both highly potent when the situation arises, and it's why you need a lot of different abilities, each with their own niche, that you can call on when needed.

It's exactly what they intended, and it looks like they're trying to back it up as well by giving us so many situational abilities. Really, when you have a situational ability for every situation, what's really the problem?

Really, I'm not sure why everyone dislikes the situational powers. From the sounds of it, the Solarion gets a lot of powers, so you can pick up plenty for every situation. The Slumber Hex was used as an example as what they're trying to avoid. Really, it's like complaining that the fly spell is situational in PF because it's only useful against melee characters that don't have a way to fly. Or that tripping is a useless tactic because it's so obsolete against a lot of enemies. In reality, they're both highly potent when the situation arises, and it's why you need a lot of different abilities, each with their own niche, that you can call on when needed.

It's exactly what they intended, and it looks like they're trying to back it up as well by giving us so many situational abilities. Really, when you have a situational ability for every situation, what's really the problem?

There are some simple beater/nuke builds for solarian, mostly photon builds which tend towards flashy and direct solutions, but graviton is thematically the stellar mode that requires more tactical thinking but rewards it when used wisely. That's also how the philosophies of the two solarian modes differ, which I found cool because it's not a simple good/evil thing like is often the case with dualistic classes. The best part was that playtesters who tended towards different playstyles split into two camps each of which was convinced that the mode that matched their style was way more powerful than the other mode, which is usually a good thing.

Dαedαlus wrote:

Really, I'm not sure why everyone dislikes the situational powers. From the sounds of it, the Solarion gets a lot of powers, so you can pick up plenty for every situation. The Slumber Hex was used as an example as what they're trying to avoid. Really, it's like complaining that the fly spell is situational in PF because it's only useful against melee characters that don't have a way to fly. Or that tripping is a useless tactic because it's so obsolete against a lot of enemies. In reality, they're both highly potent when the situation arises, and it's why you need a lot of different abilities, each with their own niche, that you can call on when needed.

It's exactly what they intended, and it looks like they're trying to back it up as well by giving us so many situational abilities. Really, when you have a situational ability for every situation, what's really the problem?

There are some simple beater/nuke builds for solarian, mostly photon builds which tend towards flashy and direct solutions, but graviton is thematically the stellar mode that requires more tactical thinking but rewards it when used wisely. That's also how the philosophies of the two solarian modes differ, which I found cool because it's not a simple good/evil thing like is often the case with dualistic classes. The best part was that playtesters who tended towards different playstyles split into two camps each of which was convinced that the mode that matched their style was way more powerful than the other mode, which is usually a good thing.

Sounds like the difference between Superman and Batman. Between glorious warriors and schemers. Both can be paragons of virtue at times though.

Not much of a point, but it does seem appropriate. I've weirdly always figured that given "Darkness" can have connotations of secrecy, it has a better case for being the side of knowledge and truth than Light; since if you ignore such things as "forbidden knowledge", you don't get an accurate view of the world.

In any case, I've lately been thinking up a character that might be similar to a Dark Solarion based on this. Well... More like Solarion/Operative hybrid, but that's besides the point. Wasn't exactly thinking of using it for a game though.

Hmm... That actually reminds me of a question I should ask in the Operative thread.

...

Worth pointing out that this exactly how light and dark magic work in Fire Emblem. Light magic is associated with priests, dark magic is canonically Int-based and has fewer practicioners mostly because its harder to learn. The ultimate dark spell is also known as "the revealing darkenss."

I loved the battle tome classes! After reading Marks comments it sounds like the Solarian is one of them. I can't wait to play.

Still going to play a technomancer for my first time playing this game. However, the Solarion seems cool.

Garbage-Tier Waifu wrote:

As I was saying elsewhere, I could see Crush being a fairly potent way of shutting down spellcasters you can close to gap on, depending on how some of the action economy changes look. I'm not sure if casting defensively exists anymore, given the absence of Concentration, but I'll assume it would be brought down to a full action casting or something instead of being completely gone.

If so, that mage is going to have a fun time dealing with a solarian using Crush on them and wailing on them, particularly since their Fortitude save is probably bad. This also applies to any ranged creatures, which should have an even worse time dealing with trying to keep away from a melee specialist.

This is exactly what happened in one fight. The boss caster couldn't Guarded Step away either because it's a move. Given the party also had a soldier and an operative switch-hitter, the solarian really screwed that caster over.

Sick.

Now, this will either make or break the class for me, but.... can they manifest wings?

Dαedαlus wrote:

Really, I'm not sure why everyone dislikes the situational powers. From the sounds of it, the Solarion gets a lot of powers, so you can pick up plenty for every situation. The Slumber Hex was used as an example as what they're trying to avoid. Really, it's like complaining that the fly spell is situational in PF because it's only useful against melee characters that don't have a way to fly. Or that tripping is a useless tactic because it's so obsolete against a lot of enemies. In reality, they're both highly potent when the situation arises, and it's why you need a lot of different abilities, each with their own niche, that you can call on when needed.

It's exactly what they intended, and it looks like they're trying to back it up as well by giving us so many situational abilities. Really, when you have a situational ability for every situation, what's really the problem?

There are some simple beater/nuke builds for solarian, mostly photon builds which tend towards flashy and direct solutions, but graviton is thematically the stellar mode that requires more tactical thinking but rewards it when used wisely. That's also how the philosophies of the two solarian modes differ, which I found cool because it's not a simple good/evil thing like is often the case with dualistic classes. The best part was that playtesters who tended towards different playstyles split into two camps each of which was convinced that the mode that matched their style was way more powerful than the other mode, which is usually a good thing.

I hope i end up feeling the same once i have the final product in hand. What i see right now is a Soldier with less armor and niche tricks.

The damage from blazing orbit will be 7-10 points for most of the career assuming no resistance or immunities (lets not get too hung up that Fire is one of the most commonly resisted or immune elements in Pathfinder) and once you get it enemies will be averaging around 100 HP, so if you know the enemy will have to move or you are lucky enough to be controlling a choke point on the map than you might be able to hit them for about a 1/10 of their total HP, pretty negligible stuff. It helps that it is zero resources and is a move action that still allows you to move, it looks more useful for the concealment effect to let you close in on things that might out reach you than any offensive booster.

Crush though, that looks really bad. Going off First Contact for some examples, there is are a few CR 4s that have a +8 and i would be hesitant to try a DC 17 save against them. There is a CR 6 with only a +6 against it but then the other CR 6 has a +8, the CR 7 is +11 and the CR 9 has a +13, our best bet has a 55% chance of landing vs definitely giving up an action on your part. definitely give up your main action for a minor chance to cancel out one baddies' action? cant see this ever being a sound choice on its own. If you have a party that can stack up debuffs than it might come up but then you have a party dedicating its actions to debuffing when you could just kill it and be done. Otherwise, has there been some massive change to design paradigm where GMs are expected to throw single creatures against the party at a time?

I understand that these are zero resource cost but that doesnt really matter since they arent really that big a deal in the first place. Whoopie, i can trail fire behind me all day and piss off station security or force crush someone about as well as Silent Bob in Mall Rats. what does their class weapon and armor feature do that the advanced melee weapon at the same level doesnt? what function does a weapon crystal have? Those seem like the bread and butter of the class, not the nuisance at will abilities.

Okay, I'm gonna be negative today. Sorry about that!

I've just never been that interested in the Solarian. It seems like a weirdly narrow-flavored concept, and to be honest, I doubt my mind is going to be changed until I either read the iconic's page or get the actual full class description in my hands. That said, is it just me, or are the "class preview" characters really weirdly bland compared to the iconics? I mean, I get that that's why they aren't iconics, but damn, I am just not terribly impressed by "Rugged Dark-Haired White Boy #100044". At least the outfit is kind of charming, I guess.

EDIT: On the other hand, I will defend the Orbit ability. The real handy aspect is when you need to run away. Concealment against AoOs, plus 2d6 damage per square if someone tries to follow you. In a narrow hallway, this would be a really nice option to have.

I think it's his expression.

Yeah! It's the blandest goddamn "Hi it's me, Shmalcolm Shmeynolds" expression I've ever seen.

Ugh, I'm being mean. Sorry, it's really hot today and I'm feeling dehydrated. I'm gonna go get a drink and chill with a death stick or two. On the bright side, he looks like a goofy superhero (and I mean goofy superhero), so I guess that's something un-bland about him.

Yeah! It's the blandest g~%%~!n "Hi it's me, Shmalcolm Shmeynolds" expression I've ever seen.

Ugh, I'm being mean. Sorry, it's really hot today and I'm feeling dehydrated. I'm gonna go get a drink and chill with a death stick or two.

Seems more Malcolm Merlyn than Malcolm Reynolds to me, but yeah, his face is uninspiring. But the spear of nothingness is pretty damn cool.

You take that back about Barrowman!

You take that back about Barrowman!

Oh, I love Barrowman. I have fond memories of seeing him one a live espisode of the Nerdist at SDCC a few years ago. He was hillarious.

If I had to guess Wisdom, strength and/or dexterity.

Okay, I'm gonna be negative today. Sorry about that!

I've just never been that interested in the Solarian. It seems like a weirdly narrow-flavored concept, and to be honest, I doubt my mind is going to be changed until I either read the iconic's page or get the actual full class description in my hands.

That's okay if you aren't interested. I am not interested in the soldier or mystic and probably will only touch them if I was DMing. I would only use them as pawns. But to me I think the Solarian is pretty interesting. But I don't play with alignment restrictions. I think having the power of the universe in your hands could make for great story telling.

That said, is it just me, or are the "class preview" characters really weirdly bland compared to the iconics? I mean, I get that that's why they aren't iconics, but damn, I am just not terribly impressed by "Rugged Dark-Haired White Boy #100044". At least the outfit is kind of charming, I guess.

Class previews aren't supposed to compare to the iconic preview. One is a class and the other tells a story describing a character who happens to be that class. It's like talking about a job or a person. What would most likely be more interesting?

Now, this will either make or break the class for me, but.... can they manifest wings?

I'd be fine if they flew via manipulating gravity.

I'm gonna murder the f@&% out of stuff with a black hole in sword format. All other arguments are invalid.

Really? 'Cause:

Each solarian begins play with two zenith powers: black hole, which draws a foe closer to you...

Sounds like something you'd use with your glompy hugs. :)

Okay, I'm gonna be negative today. Sorry about that!

I've just never been that interested in the Solarian. It seems like a weirdly narrow-flavored concept, and to be honest, I doubt my mind is going to be changed until I either read the iconic's page or get the actual full class description in my hands. That said, is it just me, or are the "class preview" characters really weirdly bland compared to the iconics? I mean, I get that that's why they aren't iconics, but damn, I am just not terribly impressed by "Rugged Dark-Haired White Boy #100044". At least the outfit is kind of charming, I guess.

I actually like him a lot more an the iconics. Ok, the cape is silly, but he actually looks like a person, rather than an ambulatory pile of gear with a random cartoony head on top. Part of it is art style (and actual facial expressions).

But then I've never understood the point of iconics anyway. Ok, the random sketch in the class entry keeps showing up in the other art in the books because...?

I'd much rather see more variety in the art than the same dirty dozen over and over and over. They make the world feel too small.

I've just never been that interested in the Solarian. It seems like a weirdly narrow-flavored concept, and to be honest, I doubt my mind is going to be changed until I either read the iconic's page or get the actual full class description in my hands....

If I was a PC, the thought of trying to fight my way through the twisty, tricky, trappy corridors of a kobold warrenship would be harrowing enough. But on top of that, running into kobold solarians flipping between photon & graviton attunements in pairs who bring the fight to us? {shudder}

Kobold Cleaver wrote:

Okay, I'm gonna be negative today. Sorry about that!

I've just never been that interested in the Solarian. It seems like a weirdly narrow-flavored concept, and to be honest, I doubt my mind is going to be changed until I either read the iconic's page or get the actual full class description in my hands. That said, is it just me, or are the "class preview" characters really weirdly bland compared to the iconics? I mean, I get that that's why they aren't iconics, but damn, I am just not terribly impressed by "Rugged Dark-Haired White Boy #100044". At least the outfit is kind of charming, I guess.

I actually like him a lot more an the iconics. Ok, the cape is silly, but he actually looks like a person, rather than an ambulatory pile of gear with a random cartoony head on top. Part of it is art style (and actual facial expressions).

But then I've never understood the point of iconics anyway. Ok, the random sketch in the class entry keeps showing up in the other art in the books because...?

I'd much rather see more variety in the art than the same dirty dozen over and over and over. They make the world feel too small.

If I remember my history right, Iconics aren't really for us, they are, at least originally for the artist. Particularly artist who don't know anything about d&d and wouldn't know the first about what to draw if you just said "Make a ranger". This just saves Paizo and the artist lots of time in various cases. But then as time went on fans took a lot of interest in the Iconics and now we have the beasts they are today.

This might just be me but I really want to get to 3 graviton, orbit backward and then black hole a group into the fire. Of course if a soldier can then grenade them or do something explodey it wouldn't hurt either.

Really? I thought only the Tactical Sniper Rifle the Sarcesian from Starfinder: First Contact did that!

Starfinder: First Contact wrote:

Ranged tactical sniper rifle +12

(1d810+5 P) or
frag grenade II +12 (explode
20 ft., 2d6 P, DC 13)

Whew. I was worried that was a typo.

It was. The damage was supposed to be 1D810+51112. There was a post by Owen KC Stephens on Facebook about that. ;)

You sure it wasn't +1337?

But then I've never understood the point of iconics anyway. Ok, the random sketch in the class entry keeps showing up in the other art in the books because...?

Iconics are a bit more than that, at least now-days (can't speak for early PF or earlier). They function as a sort of Sample Character, something for someone new to the game (or that just didn't have a character ready) to be able to have to work with that provides more than just a statblock.

As well as providing branding and reference material for the art. Yeah that part may be a bit limiting, but at the same time it also provides consistency and familiarity, for all that it would be nice to see more varied faces sometimes.

Rysky wrote:

I'm gonna murder the f@&% out of stuff with a black hole in sword format. All other arguments are invalid.

Really? 'Cause:

Class Preview: The Solarian wrote:

Each solarian begins play with two zenith powers: black hole, which draws a foe closer to you...

Sounds like something you'd use with your glompy hugs. :)

Oooo, good idea!

Great now the succubus is going to get class levels in solarian.

What have you done?

Hunt, the PugWumpus wrote:

Rysky wrote:

I'm gonna murder the f@&% out of stuff with a black hole in sword format. All other arguments are invalid.

Really? 'Cause:

Class Preview: The Solarian wrote:

Each solarian begins play with two zenith powers: black hole, which draws a foe closer to you...

Sounds like something you'd use with your glompy hugs. :)

Oooo, good idea!

*facepalm*

Hunt, how many times do I have to tell you to NOT GIVE RYSKY IDEAS?!?!

*flips open a mechanic manual to learn ways to block and obfuscate solarian powers*

Great now the succubus is going to get class levels in solarian.

What have you done?

Dark Solarian in a grapple thread when?

Vidmaster7 wrote:

Great now the succubus is going to get class levels in solarian.

What have you done?

Dark Solarian in a grapple thread when?

Ok well it may not be all bad news.

Great now the succubus is going to get class levels in solarian.

What have you done?

Nice idea

I've already got some FAQ questions:

1) Does the fire damage from blazing orbit trigger for *each* square you enter? I.e. if you enter one square, take 2d6, enter the next, take another 2d6?

2) Does forced movement into those squares, say from the same or a different Solarian's black hole power, which moves an enemy closer, trigger the damage?

Depending on exact numbers, that might be an easy 12d6 from a move (can Black hole move you 6 squares?) and a standard action (is Black hole standard? Full round?) with no resource cost at 6th. Maybe something like 24d6 at 10th. And just for sillies, something like 54d6 at 20th (although maybe you can have faster base movement and pull farther at higher level?) Although I'm guessing Black hole gives a save.

I.e. Solarian is in over his head up front after 3 rounds of combat in and is Gravity attuned, activates Blazing Orbit and moves away with concealment, then draws an enemy through his flames to his friends via Blackhole. Move + Attack damage + better positioning of the enemy at the end. Might not be as good as a full attack in terms of raw damage output, but I could see it being the right move in some situations.

Anyways I'm looking forward to what kind of silly combos one can build between team members.

I'd be fine if they flew via manipulating gravity.

Ooh, now I'm seeing Solarion as a basis for making a Windrunner from the Sanderson's Stomrlight Archives. I like it.

I've already got some FAQ questions:

1) Does the fire damage from blazing orbit trigger for *each* square you enter? I.e. if you enter one square, take 2d6, enter the next, take another 2d6?

2) Does forced movement into those squares, say from the same or a different Solarian's black hole power, which moves an enemy closer, trigger the damage?

Depending on exact numbers, that might be an easy 12d6 from a move (can Black hole move you 6 squares?) and a standard action (is Black hole standard? Full round?) with no resource cost at 6th. Maybe something like 24d6 at 10th. And just for sillies, something like 54d6 at 20th (although maybe you can have faster base movement and pull farther at higher level?) Although I'm guessing Black hole gives a save.

I.e. Solarian is in over his head up front after 3 rounds of combat in and is Gravity attuned, activates Blazing Orbit and moves away with concealment, then draws an enemy through his flames to his friends via Blackhole. Move + Attack damage + better positioning of the enemy at the end. Might not be as good as a full attack in terms of raw damage output, but I could see it being the right move in some situations.

Anyways I'm looking forward to what kind of silly combos one can build between team members.

That... actually sounds pretty interesting and cool.