Karzoug the Claimer

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Opsylum wrote:
Thrice Great Hermes wrote:
Misroi wrote:
Rysky the Dark Solarion wrote:
If you want a brawler we have that option both as Soldier and Solarion.
To say nothing of the Vanguard.

The Vangaurd isn't a...

"A quasi religious warrior, specializing in hand to hand combat, whose esoteric training allows them muster an internal force, and through it attain a superhuman level of performance."

COM Playtest wrote:
The entropy within the universe—the level of chaos within any system—is at your disposal, and you channel it into potent combat abilities and steely resolve. In your hands, the cosmic forces that control how suns form and galaxies die allow you to bolster yourself and your allies against damaging effects, manipulate basic aspects of nature to turn the tide of battle, and infuse your very fist with the destructive power of the cosmos.
I dunno... It seems pretty similar. If we wanted a straight up monk, why not just pine for old classes to get remade? Where new classes are concerned, I think Starfinder is more about reimagining fantasy tropes instead of playing them straight. That said, it would be really cool to see more martial arts options come in to play: an archetype or two inspired by prominent martial forms in the galaxy, and a number of feats centered on unarmed combat that could make any class into a martial adept.

The Mystic and the Technomancer are both users of Vancian magic, even share some spells, but they represent different flavors.


Misroi wrote:
Rysky the Dark Solarion wrote:
If you want a brawler we have that option both as Soldier and Solarion.
To say nothing of the Vanguard.

The Vangaurd isn't a...

"A quasi religious warrior, specializing in hand to hand combat, whose esoteric training allows them muster an internal force, and through it attain a superhuman level of performance."


Rysky the Dark Solarion wrote:
If you want a brawler we have that option both as Soldier and Solarion.

Neither of those are the Monk archetype, adapted to a higher tech setting.

This is a rendition of Starfinder Monk, and it's close to what I mean.

I know why there isn't a Monk and why the Biohacker isn't just a biology/biochemistry focused archetype for the Alchemist.

But I still think it's a little sad they aren't here.


Cole Deschain wrote:
Thrice Great Hermes wrote:
A quasi religious warrior, specializing in hand to hand combat, whose esoteric training allows them muster an internal force, and through it attain a superhuman level of performance.

Sounds a lot like a Solarion to me. *shrug*

I mean, you can quibble about the "internal" aspect of the forces they manipulate, but... Solarions are clearly our space-monks as far as design intent went.

Classes are archetypes.

Wizards,Clerics, and Druids, are all spellcasters, but they are all separate archetypes.

Alita, the Battle Angel is Space Monk.

Binary(Ms.Marvel), is a Solarian.


Sauce987654321 wrote:

Fist of the North Star is a great example of a fictional martial arts character. I remember hearing/reading about how they wanted to include a class that has unarmed combat as the main focus, with Fist of the North Star as inspiration, iirc. Idk what happened to that, lol.

Not really important, but John Wick probably just has improved unarmed strike, since he's much more effective with firearms than unarmed attacks. Unless your suggesting he's a gun-monk :p

John Wick fits the trope of a normal human who does extraordinary things just because he trained hard enough.

[https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/monk/archetypes/paizo-monk-archetypes/zen-archer/]John Wick is a Zen Archer[/url].

I think that Paizo is more focused on the Science Fiction aspects of Starfinder and establishing it as it's own setting. Thus the Fantasy and Pathfinder legacy content has been overshadowed.

I also feel that Starfinder was very concerned with replicating Space Opera archetypes with their classes, and there just enough aren't enough examples of "Space Monks" for them to have built such a class.


Rysky the Dark Solarion wrote:
Thrice Great Hermes wrote:


Rysky the Dark Solarion wrote:

?

Why would it be?

This is Starfinder not Pathfinder. Soldier isn’t Fighter with the Soldier Archetype, Operative isn’t Rogue with the Operative Archetype (I don’t think we even have class specific archetypes).

Because Alchemy is a fantastical science and fantastical science is precisely what the Biohacker is a practitioner of. Alchemy could be ddirectly ported to a higher tech setting without having to change or evolve it.
Why would they want to do that when they can evolve it? I don't want P1 classes ported as-is into Starfinder.

The art and science of Alchemy would doubtlessly have evolved over the centuries, but Alchemist would still be recognizably Alchemists.

thejeff wrote:
Thrice Great Hermes wrote:


Rysky the Dark Solarion wrote:

?

Why would it be?

This is Starfinder not Pathfinder. Soldier isn’t Fighter with the Soldier Archetype, Operative isn’t Rogue with the Operative Archetype (I don’t think we even have class specific archetypes).

Because Alchemy is a fantastical science and fantastical science is precisely what the Biohacker is a practitioner of. Alchemy could be ddirectly ported to a higher tech setting without having to change or evolve it.

Jason Keeley wrote:
There's a fair amount of alchemist DNA (pun intended) in the biohacker, but we definitely wanted it to be a Starfinder class, with its own science-fantasy feel!

I wanted a space Monk.

Any portrayal of qausi mystical martal skill in a higher tech setting could be used as insperation?

Maybe not quite to the right level, but Dune's Bene Gesserit?

Dune's Prana-Bindu.

Equilibrium's Tetragrammaton Cleric.

Battle Angel Alita's Panzer Kunst.

Alterd Carbon's Envoys.

Fist of the North Star.

John Wick and his fellow Continental Assassin's.

All of these hold aspects of what a Monk in a higher tech setting should be.

AnimatedPaper wrote:
Thrice Great Hermes wrote:


I wanted a space Monk.

Any portrayal of qausi mystical martal skill in a higher tech setting could be used as insperation?

Solarians are space monks, with a sprinkling of space cleric.

Mechanically maybe, trope wise no.

The Monk is a genre transplant from Eastern myth/folklore to Western fiction.

A quasi religious warrior, specializing in hand to hand combat, who's esoteric training allows them muster an internal force, and through it attain a superhuman level of performance.


Rysky the Dark Solarion wrote:

?

Why would it be?

This is Starfinder not Pathfinder. Soldier isn’t Fighter with the Soldier Archetype, Operative isn’t Rogue with the Operative Archetype (I don’t think we even have class specific archetypes).

Because Alchemy is a fantastical science and fantastical science is precisely what the Biohacker is a practitioner of. Alchemy could be ddirectly ported to a higher tech setting without having to change or evolve it.

Jason Keeley wrote:
There's a fair amount of alchemist DNA (pun intended) in the biohacker, but we definitely wanted it to be a Starfinder class, with its own science-fantasy feel!

I wanted a space Monk.

Any portrayal of qausi mystical martal skill in a higher tech setting could be used as insperation?


Rysky the Dark Solarion wrote:
SPACE Alchemist.

I find myself wondering, why wasn't the class just the Alchemist with Biohacker as an Archetype?


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Slyme wrote:

Right now, the local PFS/SFS group and locations I play at are working on a rotating schedule. PFS 1 week, SFS the next, PFS2 the next. I basically play SFS because even with the comedy, it beats sitting home bored with nothing to play. They used to run PFS and SFS side by side, but it often led to SFS games not getting enough signups, so the SFS GMs convinced the local officers to rotate games.

Maybe I just need to find a group running an AP on Roll20 or something, see if I can find a group who doesn't treat the game like a running joke.

"Maybe I just need to find a group running an AP on Roll20 or something, see if I can find a group who doesn't treat the game like a running joke."

That is what your gonna have to do and if you run a game, make sure that everyone is on board with you.

Make sure that they understand that you want to take things seriously, that a serious take on the settings what you enjoy and can run both most effectively and enthusiastically.


Slyme wrote:

Alas, I am not the writer of the adventures...I have zero control over the content.

I also feel like certain players around here would turn even the most grimdark campaign into a 3 Stooges episode...which I personally witnessed one do in a horror themed PFS scenario. :(

I think that's a matter of the players and not the game.

However, imagery does inform expectations.

So maybe it's both, people see a bright colorful, whimsical, space opera, and think I don't have take this seriously.

Ignoring the fact that Bright and colorful, doesn't mean pleasant and light hearted.

I could also attribute the more comical or silly tone, that some of the major Actual plays that served to bring people in to the rpg space.

First impressions are lasting impressions, if your first encounter with Rpgs silly,nothing is too serious, actual plays.

Then you'd balk at somebody trying to run the game deadly serious, you walk in expecting Futurama to Guardians of the Galaxy, but the Gamemaster is giving you FireFly.


Slyme wrote:

I don't know if it's just the local meta, or how the adventures are being written (I've only played SFS, not home games)...but it feels to me like Starfinder comes across as too much comedy, and not enough serious space fantasy.

I was hoping more for Star Wars or Firefly, but it has felt more like Futurama meets Ice Pirates, with a side of Spaceballs every time I have played.

Anyone else feel the same, or is it just me?

It's not too comedic because the best ratio of comedy to drama is dependent personal taste?

That being said...

You hit the nail on the head.

There is intended story,tone, and style invested into every Rpg?

Guardians of the Galaxy, Final Space, and even a Outlaw Star are closer to the intent of Starfinder than what you're reaching for.

You can get what you want out of Starfinder,your just going to have work a little harder.

First make sure that your players are on board.

Set the campaign in a time and place, where people have few resources,and are under semi-constant threAt ,with little ability to just go get More of what they need or escape.

Like a small colony in the Vast or a Space station,City or bigger still a World Ship.

The challenges must be high,the enemies both numorus and strong, with the players having little ability to rest and recover resources.

Throw in a few morally questionable choices to; the lesser of two evils is still evil?


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WhiteWeasel wrote:
Mark the Wise and Powerful wrote:

I haven't played Starfinder. Getting really interested, though.

1. What do you like about the current edition?

2. What would you change?

3. Is there anything you wouldn't want to change?

1) The Gap. Long story short, up until about 400 years ago, though an unexplained supernatural event, all historical accounts and memories were wiped, "resetting" the galaxy if you will. This is narrative genius for two reasons. The first is that it allows starfinder to ditch any baggage lore-wise from pathfinder (and not spoil any future events). The other is, that it creates a "clean slate" of a galaxy where there are so many unknowns, anything can happen or crop up and more or less seem reasonable. This makes starfinder - dare I say, perfect for homebrew shenanigans and custom settings.

2) The game is too crunchy and constraining with it's rules. Starfinder and by extension pathfinder, feel like a video game where you have to adhere to a rigid set of defined parameters that at times, seem completely arbitrary.

But what really gets me is that because of the very "programmed" nature of the rules, they interact with many other rules at once and and it's very daunting for newer players to try and keep track of making all of those little "pathfinder-ism" cogs to mesh together. There are way too many references to other rules in the book that make players have to flip to one or more other pages to fully understand the nature of an interaction, which is really inconvenient and slows down the game. If not overhauled entirely to minimize inter-dependencies, the rules at least need to be more concise and organized better if they are so important to follow closely.

3) What I wouldn't change is how alignment is handled: That it basically doesn't matter. What makes any argument of morality compelling is the inherently subjective and fuzzy nature of morality. Putting clear labels on morality defeats the point of it....

When Good,Evil,Law,Chaos, and Neutrality, are real tangible forces rather than just opinions on behavior, Alignment(which would be bettered term Allegiance) makes complete since.


Fumarole wrote:
And people say magic is pointless in Starfinder.

How close are the game mechanics to what is seen in the story?


She's Bill Ny crossed with Steven Irwin.


Wrath wrote:

A lot of the stuff Magic would accomplish is literally replaced with technology now. Who needs teleporting mages or planeshifting etc when you have gear and ships that can do that for you.

Plus the balance thing as already mentioned.

Someone that values personal ability/power over dependence on artifice and cuts a lot of their overhead by not needing to pay for gear.


Nerdy Canuck wrote:
Thrice Great Hermes wrote:
CorvusMask wrote:

So I've been playing Shin Megami Tensei games(devil survivor in particular) lately and I came to think about witchwarper and other wacky upcoming classes, so I started to think: "Wait, is it already possible to do this in Starfinder?"

(for reference, common thing in SMT and its spinoffs is that someone made "Demon Summoning Program" which as it says, summons demons. It basically simulates same steps and magical chants as actual demon summoning rituals, but obviously much faster in easy to use form :p)

I'd guess it wouldn't be possible in Starfinder currently because I'm talking about sort of thing you could do even if you weren't caster yourself, you'd just need to use the program instead of casting any magic. I guess you could play technomancer who does this, but that'd be just the flavor wise.

It wouldn't be that hard to set up.

Starfinder has Summoning rules, i believe that they introduced in the Starfinder ARMORY.

What you need is a hybrid item commuter that casts the summoning spells.

They were introduced in Alien Archive, and what you can summon is pretty limited.

What's the item?


CorvusMask wrote:

So I've been playing Shin Megami Tensei games(devil survivor in particular) lately and I came to think about witchwarper and other wacky upcoming classes, so I started to think: "Wait, is it already possible to do this in Starfinder?"

(for reference, common thing in SMT and its spinoffs is that someone made "Demon Summoning Program" which as it says, summons demons. It basically simulates same steps and magical chants as actual demon summoning rituals, but obviously much faster in easy to use form :p)

I'd guess it wouldn't be possible in Starfinder currently because I'm talking about sort of thing you could do even if you weren't caster yourself, you'd just need to use the program instead of casting any magic. I guess you could play technomancer who does this, but that'd be just the flavor wise.

It wouldn't be that hard to set up.

Starfinder has Summoning rules, i believe that they introduced in the Starfinder ARMORY.

What you need is a hybrid item commuter that casts the summoning spells.


Ambrosia Slaad wrote:
Ooo, this is a very welcome surprise.

For awhile I'd been afraid that the entire line had folded.

After Starfinder, there was no hype or conversation about Aethera anywhere.


BigNorseWolf wrote:

Would a female sex even be identifiable as such if the reproduction bottleneck was instead with the host? *mumbles off into semi coherent biology...*

To other Shirren definitely, to other races debatable, it's going to come down to GM's fiat.


Nova Coke: Lifted directly from Shadowrun.

BLT, Better than Life: Also from Shadowrun, a VR program/device with the ability to feed the user sensations far more intense than reality.

Spice: A drug that produces a euphoric state, it also has a number of mind expanding properties. The exact nature of the effect is determined by which of the several verities the users has imbibed. Heavy usage has the effect of turning the users pupil and scalar a vivid blue.

Eldritch: a drug made through a combination of alchemy and spellcraft.
The synthesis processes Binds magical energies(spell slots) to a physical form. That of a viscus, luminescent liquid it may also be vaporised. Eldritch is a powerful stimulant, the more powerful the magical energies used in its creation the more intense and longer lasting the high. Spellcasters that imbibe Eldritch recover expended magical power(spell slots).


He,She,Xe.

Shirren pronouns solved.


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Depending on how it was built a Starfinder game could work.

Something built with Dragon Age II's combat system and the ability to create your own character.

I could really go for a one planet story.

Your character show up on colony world, something goes down and its up to your character to solve it.


Rysky the Dark Solarion wrote:
Thrice Great Hermes wrote:
Rysky the Dark Solarion wrote:
Thrice Great Hermes wrote:
The Solarian already represents a melee focused class fueled by the cosmic powers of energy represented by Stars and entropy represented by Blackholes.

The Solarion represents an offense focused class.

With Vanguard we have defense.

The Solarian is already contains what the Vanguard was created to represent. The Solarian has the potential to be a shield as well as sword, abilities that built off Solar Armor could have done that.

And the Solarion can still have abilities that build off solar armor while the Vanguard exists, they’re both distinct and different enough in how they go about their defense options.

The Vanguard will always feel redundant to me, and I really wonder why it's powers weren't just additional features for Solar armor and Graviton Revelations.

A future monk,a dedicated psionic, a future Alchemist, a Inventor/Artificer/Gadgeteer, A doctor/medic, a future paladin.

Would have added more to the game.


Takhisis wrote:

Most people saw Elizabeth from Bioshock. However, as the Weeb I am, I instead saw space Haruhi Suzumia. The "reality warping schoolgirl" is such a common character type in anime that its actually something of a trope of the medium, so much in fact that a small part of me hopes the iconic Witchwarper will be some form of schoolgirl. Anime in the fluff aside, from a crunch standpoint the class looked very back-loaded, which I don't consider to be a good design choice.

At low levels, you have very few strong abilities and look just flat out worse than a Technomancer or Mystic at the same levels. Most of the low level phase shifts are absolute underpowered jokes, and the one good one is still pretty horrid at low levels (though much like the class itself becomes exponentially stronger at higher levels.) Likewise, while Infinite Worlds is really cool and strong, it has such pitiful uses/day at low levels its not even remotely relevant in that tier of play. However, in start contrast to how weak the class is at low levels, at high levels the tools it gets look far stronger than anything the other casters have access to. Infinite Worlds goes from having too few uses to be relevant to being downright dangerous, and your phase shifts give you *at-will* stuns and debuffs, both of which put you heads and shoulders above even an overlord mystic when it comes to crowd control. So much in fact that the class may be too strong at high levels. I am not sure about that, though, and will have to play with it to see if thats actually the case.

Either way, the class strikes me as very much being the "wizard" of Starfinder, in both the best and worst ways. Like the wizard, it is the strongest crowd control and debuff caster in the game, able to really tilt battles in its party's favor, especially at higher levels when you actually get good control and debuff shifts. This niche' was one that I feel was/is much needed in Starfinder. While Mystics can do some crowd control and even specialize in it with connections like...

Anime fan to, didn't Haruhi or Hitomi(Escaflowne) but I do get the comparison.

Though I'd have a knockoff Haruhi be an actual incarnate deity that is suffering from amnesia.

What do you think about Witchwarper just being a Mystic Connection.


Rysky the Dark Solarion wrote:
Thrice Great Hermes wrote:
The Solarian already represents a melee focused class fueled by the cosmic powers of energy represented by Stars and entropy represented by Blackholes.

The Solarion represents an offense focused class.

With Vanguard we have defense.

The Solarian is already contains what the Vanguard was created to represent. The Solarian has the potential to be a shield as well as sword, abilities that built off Solar Armor could have done that.


I'm not suited to appraise the mechanics of the Witcharper,but I'll give my thoughts on the flavor/fluff.

The Witchwarper exists so that we can play Elizabeth from Bioshock Infinite, there be other inspirations for the class but that's the one that I recognize.

I feel that as it's own class the Witchwarper didn't need to exist, all of it's special abilities could be from a Mystic Connection - Connection Multiverse, Skein, or Conflux.


LotsOfLore wrote:
The Ragi wrote:
Thrice Great Hermes wrote:
I get that they wanted another "pure tech" class, why not go an with Inventor/Gadetteer that's archetype even older than the Mad Biological Engineer.
I'd bet money (if it was legal in my country) that the mechanic gets some expansions to also become an organic (or cyborg) pet class and a gadgeteer of sorts in the Characters Operations Manual.

I agree. I think the gadgeter or tinkerer/inventor is supposed to be the mechanic. For this one they really went for the chemist/farmacist (so yes alchemist) of the future.

Of the three new classes this is the one that I am less excited about, although I may change my mind after I have played it!

However...I can't stop wondering what classes didn't make it, to leave room for this one heheh

The Mechanic is a Technician and or Hacker, but they're not an Artificer/Inventor the guy with a gadget or device for every situation.

An Artificer-Gadgeteer needs to be firmly magitech if not pure tech. In terms of game mechanics they need to work almost like the Wizard class.
Artificer-Gadgeteer knows a number of schematics based on level and Intelligence score.

The schematics represents the gadgets that they can "reliably build".
Based on Intelligence,level, money and perhaps a unique resource like Genius points, an Artificer-Gadgeteer can create a number of devices per-day.

Gadgets unlike spells can be stockpiled for later use, as well as simply given to other character to uses. Using Gadgets requires no skill check or special abilities.

At least once per day, a Artificer-Gadgeteer can quick build something without needing "prep-time".

An Artificer-Gadgeteer, can through sheer power of their Sublime-Madness attempt to improvise a gadget that they do not possess a schematic for. This should be usable about once per-day.

The Gadgets themselves are either single use, have a fixed number of uses, expire quickly for example super-drugs made through mad alchemy.

There must be a class ability, feat, or archetype, that allows some of the Gadgets to be made longer lasting if not permanent.

Gadgets cannot be made or duplicated by anyone but another Artifice-Gadgeteer.


Rysky the Dark Solarion wrote:
I know nothing about Dune, but I’m not seeing anything involving Gun Kata in the class, or martial arts aside from disciplines giving you the Improved [Combat Maneuver] Feats.

I mistyped.

What I meant to say is this...

The Vanguard as a class in my opinion shouldn't exist, because it's redundant.

The Solarian already represents a melee focused class fueled by the cosmic powers of energy represented by Stars and entropy represented by Blackholes.

The Vanguard's abilities should just be Graviton revelations for the Solarian.

A future Monk that drew inspiration from Dune's Weirding Way, Equilibrium's Gun Kata, Battle Angel Alita's Panzer Kunst and any other portrayal of fantastical martial arts in a modern or futuristic setting would have been better.


Thoughts?

The Vanguard in it's current form shouldn't exist, a Future Monk that drew inspiration from Dune's Weirding Way/Prana-Bindu along with Equilibrium's Gun Kata, and every other portrayal of fantastical Martial Arts in modern or futuristic setting.

The Vanguard's powers should just be Solairan graviton revelations.


I'm not really qualified to judge the Biohacker on a mechanical level.

But as I was reading over the lore and the classes abilities I just kept asking myself...why isn't the Biohacker the Alchemist but in future?

Thematically and mechanically the class is clearly inspired by Pathfinder's Alchemist.

I get that they wanted another "pure tech" class, why not go an with Inventor/Gadetteer that's archetype even older than the Mad Biological Engineer.


Metaphysician wrote:
Why would the power level of PCs ( or anyone ) *not* be literal? What, exactly, would it even be otherwise? Them not *actually* being that skilled or capable, everyone just pretending they are?

If we take the game mechanics literally rather than as a some vague,abstract, representation of what is taking place with in the setting then things get weird...

Take Hit Points for instance, if they are literal then a high level character should be able to jump off a multi-story building in the nude,with no enchantments effecting them, and survive with no significant.

Because their Hit Points exceed the damage inflicted by the fall.


Garretmander wrote:

Ah, I prefer the AA's approach of 'here's some target numbers and a guideline on how to fiddle with them'.

I enjoyed NPC classes existing as a thought exercise, you know: what can the average commoner do? the average warrior, the average mage? I prefer the freedom to stat out an NPC's combat statistics and leave their out of combat abilities more nebulous.

It also helps with situations at the table. For example: the PCs started shooting at someone I didn't expect them to shoot and didn't stat out.

In the old system, I could find a typical stat block with some digging, maybe I have stack of them ready to go, or try and build a character that might be as high as lvl 5 on the fly.

In the new system I can find a CR_ NPC's AC and hit points on a table and play by the seat of my pants. I've had to do that already, it works really well.

I've never enjoyed building monsters like PCs.

I think that building monsters as a PCs could work, if everything just used the same mechanics,creature powers and abilities scaled by level like a lot of spells.

Do and to simplify things further you really only need five Nps/monsters.

The Warrior,The Talker,The Thinker,The Caster,and the Sneak.

Metaphysician wrote:

I'm still left wondering what any of this really has to do with "Are PCs actually as powerful as they seem to be?"

Are they that powerful? Yes.

Is everyone that powerful? No.

Are there other people that powerful? Sure.

Does any of this require the actual practicality of building NPCs with the same mechanics as PCs? Nope.

It's a slight tangent but still in the same realm.

I wonder how literally we are supposed to take game mechanics, and in-universe what does being high level represent.

I've always found CR/CL a little annoying and feel that if PCs and NPs were built using similar rules it would make encounter building faster and easier.

You pick the monster's class, then set the level to point that is a threat to PCs. One level 4 monster is roughly as strong as four level one PCs. The Monsters abilities will scale with level like some abilities do.


The Artificer wrote:

Thrice great Hermes

"Lately I've been questioning if magic users even in universe actually need material components, magi in so many settings is describe as channeling energy.

Material components are seeing more like an mechanical-artifact rather than an in setting requisite."

I looked up in all the books for spells that have a material element. this is a really rough list of all of them.
Other than those listed below no spell needs any material component. My reason for this post is because I was curious if spells Did need components or not.
A couple of these are a bit of a stretch when it comes to material components but I wanted to list them for sake of completion... I do not own any Adventure path.

Junk sword, junk armor, fabricate scrap, reanimate, animate dead, animated armor, dismissal, explosive blast, raise dead,reincarnate, terraform, transfer charge.. I hope this helps clear things up.

What I meant by "mechanical artifact", was that material components were a holdover from earlier D&D editions in game mechanics and setting lore in characters really did need material components for spells.

However as time and pop culture marched on, magic as channeled energy came to the for front. Material components outside of rituals faded out of public consciousness, magic was just a matter of Energy,Will,and Word.

I read a lot of the 3.5 supplements, the way that magic was described as working made material-components feel superfluous. Almost like the writers were trying hard to justify holding on to something that the setting had grown beyond.

Spells that transform or manipulate something,clearly need that object or force to be present for it to work.


Garretmander wrote:
Thrice Great Hermes wrote:


The common diplomat,lawyer,negotiator,conman isn't an Envoy.

The common magic-user that the citizens of the Pact Worlds encounter is not a Technomancer or Mystic, they're something closer to a Magewright.

The common trooper or mercenary, isn't a Soldier.

The common Engineer isn't a Mechanic.

The common, spy,thief,tracker, isn't an Operative.

And that's representing the AA's rules for building NPCs. Those common troopers are CR3 combatants, the engineer is a CR4 expert, the crack commando team is a group of CR12 combatants, etc. The PCs are extraordinary in the variety of skills they've picked up, an NPC will know a trick or two that they know, but a PC will know them all.

Those with PC classes being the ones that know all the tricks is exactly what I had in mind.

From a stand point of game mechanics If I was going to represent the exceptional/mundane divide I'd do something like D&D 3.5s NPC classes.

Pcs,Npcs, and monsters really all should be built using the same rules, cr or cl has always seemed like a hassle.


Metaphysician wrote:

Skill makes you more resilent a lot of ways:

1. "I dodge better than before"

2. "I overcome pain better than before"

3. "I have stronger willpower"

4. "I make better use of my protective equipment"

5. "I am more proficient with use of defensive powers"

All of these are handled with the same abstraction of "higher stamina/hit points", because it would be dumb to use a dozen different defensive mechanics for different special effects.

Starfinder has to forms of Armor Class,three saves Reflex/Fortitude/Will.

Which amount to five defenses.

Hit-points and Stamina are two layers of resliance.

Two things are influencing my thoughts on level,classes and their power.

1. is a D&D article from the old official site, it's in the archive somewhere. The article said that no one on earth has ever posed the level of ability that hitting level 20 is meant to represent.

2. is Eberron which takes the stance that the PC classes are meant to represent extraordinary individuals.

A stance that I share.

The common diplomat,lawyer,negotiator,conman isn't an Envoy.

The common magic-user that the citizens of the Pact Worlds encounter is not a Technomancer or Mystic, they're something closer to a Magewright.

The common trooper or mercenary, isn't a Soldier.

The common Engineer isn't a Mechanic.

The common, spy,thief,tracker, isn't an Operative.

Even at first level someone with a PC class is beyond the average person in terms of ability and likely accomplishments as well.

How much time passes over the course of the Dead Suns adventure path? I'd say maybe six months.

In that time from you go from above average to superheroic, level 1 at the start of the AP to at least 11 by the end.

That's the speed at which Shonen battle/adventure manga can develop.

To me it makes the most since if level represents how epic/heroic a character is rather than skill.


Metaphysician wrote:
Thrice Great Hermes wrote:
Metaphysician wrote:
I see no reason not to take them literally, with the proviso that everyone understand that Stamina and Health do not necessarily represent literal slabs of flesh. A level 20 PC really is that powerful, they aren't only that powerful because the plot says so.

What does being higher level represent in-universe.

Is Level skill, or a quantification of that X-factor that sets the extraordinary apart from the mundane?

Yes. ;)

I don't see those things as being different, or at least necessarily different. Talent without Skill ( ie, Training ) is useless, after all. I mean, some characters might rely more on natural ability, and some more on hard work and discipline, but by the time you've hit Level 20, the difference is long since irrelevant.

So, once again, a Level 20 character really is that powerful and able to shake the world. Whatever the origin of their "super powers" is unimportant, because one power source is as good as another. Starfinder is a setting where you can learn or buy "super powers", but its the skill and dedication that make the difference.

I see Level as the "X-Factor" or how heroic,epic,larger than life a character is quantified.

To me level just being a measure of skill doesn't make since, especially when hit points are factored in;How do people just get more resilient?

How much of the setting's physics/metaphysics do the rules approximate?

Is Starfinder by default an Rpg-mechanics verse.

Lately I've been questioning if magic users even in universe actually need material components, magi in so many settings is describe as channeling energy.

Material components are seeing more like an mechanical-artifact rather than an in setting requisite.


The Gods went to war and it spilled over and their mortal followers began to fight as well.

Golarian and every other world was ravaged by crusades,inquisitions and jihads, the fighting was nothing short of apocalyptic.

But when all was said and done, entire pantheons had been
destroyed,reformed or come into existence as a result of dozens of gods dying,changing sides,and mortals ascending to divinity.

The New Gods wiped the cosmos clean of most of the damage that the war inflicted,Golarian a site of several crucial battles and had been "damaged" or changed beyond even the Gods power to restore and was simply sealed the planet away.

Finnaly the New Gods wiped all knowledge of the war causing the Gap.


Metaphysician wrote:
I see no reason not to take them literally, with the proviso that everyone understand that Stamina and Health do not necessarily represent literal slabs of flesh. A level 20 PC really is that powerful, they aren't only that powerful because the plot says so.

What does being higher level represent in-universe.

Is Level skill, or a quantification of that X-factor that sets the extraordinary apart from the mundane?


Metaphysician wrote:

Don't forget that "Adventurers" have a tendency to possess great personal power. Starfinder ( or Pathfinder ) aren't quite superhero settings, where random individuals may possess power that is completely unavailable to nation-states. . . but they aren't quite that far off, either.

Societies have a strong incentive to get as many of these wonderfully, dangerously talented individuals into socially-acceptable roles as possible. After all, the alternative tends to involve the society being overthrown once a sufficient number of them get it in their head that it would be better than the alternative.

Here's a question...

How literally do we take game mechanics?

Because the answer to the question is going to determine just how "super" is the Pathfinder/Starfinder setting supposed to be?


Metaphysician wrote:
Thrice Great Hermes wrote:
ghostunderasheet wrote:
As a gm how would you work it out for your pcs. And as a pc how would try and get the best deal. I failed my attempt at it having to pay 3 times the price twice and only being allowed to use "it" at one location. Like opening an account at wellsfargo expecting to be able to use it at all the banks everywhere but finding out you only use your account or make withdraws at that one location. But if you but if you find another wellsfargo you can open another location by paying them the maximum fee. Thats basicly the deal i was able to strike. My group has it's issues but it's my group. *He stated with all the obstinance of a pouty child*

First treat being an "Adventure" as what the job actually is a mercenary,bounty/monster hunting, and object/data recovery/person agent.

I'd have Adventure be a euphemism for "itinerant mercenary/bounty-hunter".

If the characters belong to a Adventure's guild or union then have medical treatment be part of the services that they get for paying their guild dues.

Along with room,board,training,discounts on equipment as a result of deals between the guild and various manufactures,and vehicle rental.

Based upon the amount of dues that an Adventure pays their guild, the standard being 10% of every job taken;though you can chose to pay more.

The Adventure is entitled to X number of "Free" medical treatments per year;if that number is exceed the adventure's must pay out of pocket,though at a discounted rate as a result of deals between the guild and medical service providers.

For those Adventures that operate independently their are likely specialized Medical Care services that cater to them.

Something akin to Shadowrun's"Doc Wagon", the Adventure pays a monthly or annual fee and they receive on demand medical care,

...

Years ago I realized that the profession of "Adventures" didn't make any sense.

The adventure profession exist as a result of overlap between how many people play the game and the setting, small itinerant bands of heavily armed individuals that do a mixture of treasure hunting,private security, and monster/bounty hunting.

In fantasy fiction their are few "adventures", the protagonists of those stories have a very specific reason to put their lives on the line.

There also few settings that just have small fortunes sitting around waiting for a sufficiently equipped band of individuals to claim them.


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ghostunderasheet wrote:
As a gm how would you work it out for your pcs. And as a pc how would try and get the best deal. I failed my attempt at it having to pay 3 times the price twice and only being allowed to use "it" at one location. Like opening an account at wellsfargo expecting to be able to use it at all the banks everywhere but finding out you only use your account or make withdraws at that one location. But if you but if you find another wellsfargo you can open another location by paying them the maximum fee. Thats basicly the deal i was able to strike. My group has it's issues but it's my group. *He stated with all the obstinance of a pouty child*

First treat being an "Adventure" as what the job actually is a mercenary,bounty/monster hunting, and object/data recovery/person agent.

I'd have Adventure be a euphemism for "itinerant mercenary/bounty-hunter".

If the characters belong to a Adventure's guild or union then have medical treatment be part of the services that they get for paying their guild dues.

Along with room,board,training,discounts on equipment as a result of deals between the guild and various manufactures,and vehicle rental.

Based upon the amount of dues that an Adventure pays their guild, the standard being 10% of every job taken;though you can chose to pay more.

The Adventure is entitled to X number of "Free" medical treatments per year;if that number is exceed the adventure's must pay out of pocket,though at a discounted rate as a result of deals between the guild and medical service providers.

For those Adventures that operate independently their are likely specialized Medical Care services that cater to them.

Something akin to Shadowrun's"Doc Wagon", the Adventure pays a monthly or annual fee and they receive on demand medical care, with level of care provided based upon the Adventure's level of subscription Copper,Silver,Gold,Platinum,and finally Electrum.


Ravingdork wrote:
I never said otherwise, merely that they wouldn't likely be categorized as adventurers specifically.

Sorry if I came across as caustic.

I can think of way for the "adventure" profession to work in-universe.

If I'm mistaken adventure's guilds exist in the setting with the Pathfinder Society being the most famous of them.

First we answer the question what is an adventurer.

An Adventure is an itinerant mercenary,bounty/monster hunter, and object or data retrieval agent.

The term "Adventure " a euphemism, who's usage was started by the Mercs to establish a more positive image and attract a higher class of clientele.

Before the advent of "Adventures" these Mercs were viewed rather negatively and were referred to by a number of negative epithets,the most famous and enduring of which is Murderhobo.

Adventure Guilds provider their agents with insurance as part of benefits that they get for guild membership.

The Starfinder Society comes across as less of an adventure's guild than it's predecessor, being more motivated by knowledge than profit.


Ravingdork wrote:

Nothing anybody says is going to be remotely accurate for the simple fact that most things in Starfinder don't have a real world equivalent.

Also, the nature of supply and demand would ensure that even for those things that do have analogs, could be priced VERY differently simply due to the setting.

Take insurance for example. Someone started a thread asking how that would work in Starfinder. Easy answer: It wouldn't. No one would ensure adventurers, and magical healing makes it kind of moot.

In short, it'd be impossible to make a determination. Just too many variables.

Do mercenaries/private security/military contrasters have insurance?

How about salvagers?

Private Investigators.

Professional Hunters.

Bounty Hunters?

Explorers?

If the answer is yes then "Adventures" would be able to get insurance.


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Isabelle Lee wrote:
There's been a lot of delays for various reasons. The Aethera team is very small (and largely employed at day jobs), so when things get bumpy for someone, it makes a big impact. To the best of my knowledge, though, those books are still going to be available in time. ^_^

That's good news I'd been worried that the Aethera line had folded.


Banshee16 wrote:
GM Lamplighter wrote:

I've run several games of Aethera so far at game days, cons, and PaizoCon, and wanted to put down some thoughts here. [Disclaimer: I did a small amount of work on the book, but I don't get royalties or anything like that. I just fell in love with the setting by being a Kickstarter backer and having time to use it these past months.]

First, the setting really is fantastic. It's Pathfinder in Space, but it's not really sci-fi so much as it is fantasy/pulp/steampunk with some wild west feel. The technology level is about that of 1920's Earth, with a few big items like magic-powered spacecraft. It really doesn't feel like it's "the future" so much as it feels like a completely different world.

Second: it really is Pathfinder. Not to diss the Mothership, but Starfinder is shaping up to be basically a different game system set in the same campaign world (sort of) as Pathfinder. And that's great! I can't wait to play it. Aethera, though, is Pathfinder: same rules system, just in a different setting. Space combat and new worlds to explore, alongside paladins and wizards and all that goodness. There's one new class, a few mods due to the changes in setting, and a bunch of archetypes, feats, and options for all of the Pathfinder classes (including everything through Occult Adventures), but there are no new rules systems to learn. I believe this is a big part of why players have found it so easy to immerse themselves in the setting, since they already know the rules.

** spoiler omitted **...

This is something I've been wondering about. I'm not really keen on the idea of elves with laser blasters. Something I liked about Spelljammer was the whole "blunderbusses in space" and "sailing ships among the stars" things....though I wasn't a fan of the crystal spheres.

I also like Steampunk type stuff like the Iron Kingdoms. Is Aethera a similar kind of vibe? Or more sci-fi?

Aethera is more Dieselpunk than Steampunk, and it's in space!

There are no Elves, save Humans the common Ye Olden Fantasy Races are absent.

The High-Tech of the setting is Magitech fueled by aether-crystals.
The Mundane tech is all world war II era.


First I'd suggest be one hundred percent sincere...

No wink to the audience.

No being Self referential or Self aware reducing your game to a half parody and or deconstruction of the era.

Be idealistic, the mocking,cynical,jaded I've seen it all attitudes of modernity must be thrown out the window!

Black and White morality is the norm, shades of gray are rare.


Sleek,shiny,chrome, space ships
.

Computers as we known them are completely none existent, the smallest PC is about the size of a large modern television and is little more than a sophisticated calculator;it might have some media player and telecommunication functions, might.

Truly powerful computers are huge machines the smallest are about the sizes of kitchen refrigerators, the biggest take up entire buildings.

There is in all likelihood no analog to the Internet thus no Net-culture especially social media, and no Hackers.

Though In the real world a primitive analog the Internet was developed but not implanted in the mid 1940s, if one supposes the Memex or an equivalent was actually constructed...then you can get your cyberpunk on.

***

Things are grand and larger than life bordering on flamboyant, think epic fantasy but with future technology as filtered through the lens of the 1940s. Do not skimp on descriptive adjective, go purple prose if you have to.


First what is the conversion rate of credits to dollars?

What that's dealt with I'd suggest looking into the cost of private aircraft, because that is realm of cost for personal spaceships.

Here's my logic...
As technology advances things that once cost a fortune are more accessible to the common man. The cost of modern space shuttles are not a good measuring stick for how much spacecraft should cost in Starfinder or any other space-opera/science-fantasy where personal spacecraft are assumed to be relatively normal.

This is just a guess, but I suspect that part of the cost of space shuttles is do to how much effort is necessary to blast a ship out of the gravity well;in Starfinder gravity manipulation tech is ubiquitous, which cuts the cost of escaping said gravity-well.

Small air planes have costs comparable to mid to upper class cars, so factoring in all the junk necessary to keep a human like being alive and comfortable in space, I'd ball park a 1 to 4 person ultralight Runabout brand new with no Drift drive at 100 to 175 thousand credits.


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Shinigami02 wrote:
Golarion was very colorful and whimsical... and the prison of a God of Destruction, tainted by the Abyss, with one of the major world powers basically having Hell on speed-dial. As far as Starfinder, an Eldritch Horror is literally one of the Core Gods, an another is one of the core planets.

Yup, but it's about the execution.

The Eldritch Horror in Path/Starfinder is a
lighter-shade of black.

You a puny mortal can stand before the storm, challenge it and force it to break.


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Deadmanwalking wrote:

That would be considered problematic, yes.

Of course, Lashunta were all originally equally intelligent. The males had less Wis and Chr, but not less Int. Makes things a bit less problematic whichever gender is more physically powerful.

So the Males still have less going on upstairs than the females, and if I'm remembering my lore the Lashunta are matriarchal.


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thejeff wrote:
The Mad Comrade wrote:
Thrice Great Hermes wrote:

I didn't think of Wing Commander's Jump Drive as being Traveller inspired, because mechanically it's closer to the Alderson Drive from the CoDominium series.

Wing Commander is one of the few settings that I know of to use multiple FTL Methods.

If I was going to run a modded Starfinder campaign,heck if I had been on the design team, I would've replaced the Drift with a Wing Commander Style Jump Drive.

Why, You ask?

Because inter-dimensional FTL Drives are ubiquitous in Space Opera, and the ability to access other dimensions is nothing revolutionary to the Pathfinder setting; it's been a know quantity for millennia.

So "The Drift" as written is no big mind blowing revolution, heck a technological means to access the many alternate planes/dimensions that are known to exist for interstellar shouldn't have been that difficult to achieve.

What would have been a revolution, would have the revelation of the existence of "soft spots" in the fabric of space and the means harness them to instantaneously travel between distant points.

I also would have changed the Drift because Like many others, the fact that it eats pieces of the multiverse with every uses is more than a little unnerving.

The Drift drive's mechanisms are a bit unnerving.

The strengths it provides are (a) vagueness; (b) opportunities for in-flight encounters; and (c) not having to map out all of the jump points in Golarion's star system, let alone the staggering number of jump points required to expand to the nearest dozen or so stars. ;)

I suspect that "unnerving" is considered a strength.

Unnerving, in that cosmic horror since doesn't to me fit the flavor of the setting. Starfinder is too colorful and whimsical for existential/cosmic horror to be a central aspect. It would be very dissonant for the Guardians of the Galaxy's FTL drive] to be similar to Event Horizon's.Gravity Drive or Warhammer 40K's Warp Drive.

Jump Points could still allow for mid-transit encounters, the Jump would simply have to be[url=http://thelostfleet.wikia.com/wiki/Jump_space]non instantaneous.

Next add in a pre-jump calculation that would influence travel time and where or not the ship navigated the dimensional flux well to avoid a "planer convergence"(encounter).

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