Owen K. C. Stephens Developer, Starfinder Team |
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Aventhar wrote:Two archetypes have been confirmed, and they are universal(can apply to all classes)Themes sound cool. I'm curious if Starfinder will also include the concept of archetypes, either out of the gate, or perhaps a later add-on?
Yep, and they'll get their own blog in the not-too-distant future.
Seisho |
pixierose wrote:Yep, and they'll get their own blog in the not-too-distant future.Aventhar wrote:Two archetypes have been confirmed, and they are universal(can apply to all classes)Themes sound cool. I'm curious if Starfinder will also include the concept of archetypes, either out of the gate, or perhaps a later add-on?
Me Gusta - really looking forward to that one
ENHenry |
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Yep, and they'll get their own blog in the not-too-distant future.
Or the REALLY distant future, depending on your point of view. ;)
I do hope to see more of both themes and archetypes, and that numbers of base classes get kept to a minimum - while it's great to have choice, in PF it sometimes feels like there's a bit TOO much overlap, rather than making classes more achetype- and feature-switching friendly, and good modular starting frameworks for the base classes will help that, I would like to think.
The idea of an Icon as the equivalent of a Youtube/Twitch star, giving their fans vlog updates on the road, in between adventures, is flipping awesome - even using in-character campaign write-ups as the "updates"
"What's shockin' your circuits, my people?! This is your favorite Android, Kevarr-3185, checkin' in with another report from the Vast 'Verse, in the Medrani cluster! Saw these INSANE insectoids today, hooked up, shared some Kombucha, exchanged some culture, man these guys were INTENSE! Made my buddy Obozaya look like a Shelyn cultist! I'll be back tomorrow with some stories and a BONUS -- these guys shared some of their MUSIC with me! Anyway, I gotta go finish this firefight! 'Til tomorrow, LOVE TO ALL, you've just been Kevarrated!"
AnimatedPaper |
It's just the name of the theme. I wouldn't overthink it.
Or if it really bothers you, change it to "advocate."
I like these themes as presented, but I fear that this is not going to be the sole example of this issue cropping up. In fact, its come up a couple of times in this thread: themes, as the blog says, are supposed to fit a broad variety of character concepts. However, the theme names and descriptions aren't quite as broad. People are going to have an idea in mind, and have trouble seeing how a theme might apply because, as described, it doesn't, even if the mechanics fit.
Perhaps this will all be moot once the themes are in front of us in their entirety.
Fardragon |
Yeah, the themes are more job descriptions than character motivations. "Member of an order dedicated to seeking justice", (which reduces to Priest) is the way to go. Or "cop /mega city judge/Batman" which all reduce to Bounty Hunter.
But there are a lot of possibilites not covered, which is where Themeless comes in. It should really be called "Other" though - there would be less confusion that way.
Lord Fyre RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32 |
Shisumo wrote:A lot of these have distinctly "outsider" flavor. I was hoping for something that might play into characters who were once a part of the system before being thrown "outside" of it. Would a Bounty Hunter theme work well for an ex-cop?Yup! We specifically designed it with "cop" as one of the examples, we just figured "Bounty Hunter" sounded a bit more... Mandalorian. :P
But, ... not everyone wants to play Star Wars. (In honor of FreeholdDM)
Steven "Troll" O'Neal |
James Sutter wrote:But, ... not everyone wants to play Star Wars. (In honor of FreeholdDM)Shisumo wrote:A lot of these have distinctly "outsider" flavor. I was hoping for something that might play into characters who were once a part of the system before being thrown "outside" of it. Would a Bounty Hunter theme work well for an ex-cop?Yup! We specifically designed it with "cop" as one of the examples, we just figured "Bounty Hunter" sounded a bit more... Mandalorian. :P
A lot of the main cast would be envoys.
AnimatedPaper |
Hmm, fair points. I was thinking more in terms of World of Darkness "virtues and vices" but they do seem more 5e backgrounds made shinier and more evocative.
Edit: my misstep was partly due to the descriptions. Outlaw, Xenoseeker, and Spacefarer seem like role playing motivations, while the others DO seem like jobs.
I stand by my guess that these will make more sense once they're out in front of us.
UnArcaneElection |
UnArcaneElection wrote:So bounty hunter then...^Maybe . . . but I don't like tying the quest for justice to religion.
Not really -- for instance, assuming that the Bounty Hunter bonus stays on Strength, that doesn't reflect most lawyers and civil rights activists; and while lawyers and especially civil rights activists certainly have priests among their numbers, some of their numbers (especially lawyers) are most definitely not priests, and a decent subset of these do not have any philosophy of faith equivalent to religion.
lakobie |
Rhedyn wrote:UnArcaneElection wrote:So bounty hunter then...^Maybe . . . but I don't like tying the quest for justice to religion.
Not really -- for instance, assuming that the Bounty Hunter bonus stays on Strength, that doesn't reflect most lawyers and civil rights activists; and while lawyers and especially civil rights activists certainly have priests among their numbers, some of their numbers (especially lawyers) are most definitely not priests, and a decent subset of these do not have any philosophy of faith equivalent to religion.
Priest, Bounty Hunter, Scholar, Spacefarer and even Xenoseeker work for the character you suggested but since your not being specific and there are so many ways to inturpert "justice seeker" (are you judge dred? Batman? Phoniex Wright?) Its hard to pin down
Ashanderai |
Edit: my misstep was partly due to the descriptions. Outlaw, Xenoseeker, and Spacefarer seem like role playing motivations, while the others DO seem like jobs.The last sentence of the first paragraph of the article does say right there that...
While a theme may represent a job or role within a broader culture, it can also be a result of a character's background, upbringing, training, or mystical destiny.
Shisumo |
Lord Fyre wrote:A lot of the main cast would be envoys.James Sutter wrote:But, ... not everyone wants to play Star Wars. (In honor of FreeholdDM)Shisumo wrote:A lot of these have distinctly "outsider" flavor. I was hoping for something that might play into characters who were once a part of the system before being thrown "outside" of it. Would a Bounty Hunter theme work well for an ex-cop?Yup! We specifically designed it with "cop" as one of the examples, we just figured "Bounty Hunter" sounded a bit more... Mandalorian. :P
Luke: human mechanic (drone companion) with the Ace Pilot theme and the phrenic adept archetype
Han: human daredevil operative with Outlaw themeObi Wan: old human solarian with Bounty Hunter theme and phrenic adept archetype
Chewbacca: wookiee bombard soldier with the Outlaw theme
Leia: human envoy with the Icon theme
Lord Fyre RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32 |
Lord Fyre wrote:A lot of the main cast would be envoys.James Sutter wrote:But, ... not everyone wants to play Star Wars. (In honor of FreeholdDM)Shisumo wrote:A lot of these have distinctly "outsider" flavor. I was hoping for something that might play into characters who were once a part of the system before being thrown "outside" of it. Would a Bounty Hunter theme work well for an ex-cop?Yup! We specifically designed it with "cop" as one of the examples, we just figured "Bounty Hunter" sounded a bit more... Mandalorian. :P
I'm not sure about that.
I might go with ...
- Malcom Reynolds - Human Soldier Themeless (creating a "Captain" theme)
- Zoë Washburne (Alleyne) - Human Soldier Spacefarer theme (she grew up in space)
- Hoban Washburne - Human Operative Ace Pilot theme
- Kaywinnet Lee "Kaylee" Frye - Human Mechanic Themeless (Her background is kind of unique.) - but her skills don't quite line up with the Mechanic class from Starfinder.
- Jayne Cobb - Human Soldier Mercenary
- Inara Serra - Human Envoy Icon
- Shepard Derrial Book - Human Operative Priest (Best way I can think of to represent this complicated character)
- Doctor Simon Tam - Human Operative(?) Outlaw - Not sure how to do a medical doctor in Starfinder
- River Tam - Human Operative Phrenic Adept Outlaw
UnArcaneElection |
UnArcaneElection wrote:Priest, Bounty Hunter, Scholar, Spacefarer and even Xenoseeker work for the character you suggested but since your not being specific and there are so many ways to inturpert "justice seeker" (are you judge dred? Batman? Phoniex Wright?) Its hard to pin downRhedyn wrote:UnArcaneElection wrote:So bounty hunter then...^Maybe . . . but I don't like tying the quest for justice to religion.
Not really -- for instance, assuming that the Bounty Hunter bonus stays on Strength, that doesn't reflect most lawyers and civil rights activists; and while lawyers and especially civil rights activists certainly have priests among their numbers, some of their numbers (especially lawyers) are most definitely not priests, and a decent subset of these do not have any philosophy of faith equivalent to religion.
To avoid narrowing the concept, I was purposely trying to avoid being too specific, but if you want a specific example, how about a fresh-out-of-college non-religious equal rights/voting rights activist, who has taken on the lofty ideal and dangerous occupation of making sure that everybody gets the right to vote, even if they are of an ethnic group that is locally discriminated against (for instance, in some backwater dumps that use dirty tricks to keep Androids effectively disenfranchised both economically and politically, despite this being illegal in the Pact Worlds)?
Opsylum |
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Looking over the different themes again, it appears to me themes are less a representation of your career or background - which can be any number of infinite things - but more a representation of who your friends are, or what you've grown to rely on. In each of these themes, a sphere of society is accounted for.
High Society: politicians, celebrities, capitalists - rely on influence, fame, and wealth to move the world around them. Domain of the Icon.
Local Enforcement: cops, hitmen, PIs - rely on experience and their keen instinct, and a disturbing empathy for the criminal mind. Domain of the Bounty Hunter.
Military: soldiers, mercenaries, tacticians - rely on their training, a disciplined body and mind, and their comrades in arms, who they would risk their lives for, and expect the same from. Domain of the Mercenary.
Criminal Underworld: smugglers, runaways, mobsters - rely on their own wit, carefully chosen friends, a deep understanding of society's conventions and how to exploit them, and a good, old-fashioned belief in self-interest as a behavior that ties the world together. Domain of the Outlaw.
Church: oracles, priests, monks - rely on their church, philosophy, or profound connection with their god. Domain of the Priest.
Academic: scientists, professors, curators - rely on their enhanced intellect (well beyond that of their peers) and wide range of knowledge. Domain of the Scholar.
Foreign Relations: diplomats, missionaries, anthropologists - rely on their excellent ability to communicate, empathize, improvise, and learn. Domain of the Xenoseeker.
Frontier: explorers, rangers, nomads - rely on a honed body, keen survival instincts, adaptability, and union with nature. Domain of the Spacefarer.
Sky: pilots, streetracers, flight testers - rely on their intuitive familiarity with physics, an ascendant connection to the heavens, and excellent health and senses to survive in a wide variety of life-threatening situations. Domain of the Ace Pilot.
The last one was a bit contrived, although I think it's an excellent indication of the logic behind themeless. Ace Pilot is a very specific profession, and seems an odd fit when there is no place for much more common backgrounds like a merchant or entertainer. And yet, excellent skill development and ability scores can account for nearly all the flavor one would need for these latter two professions, or most professions in general. A merchant doesn't really need a special ability to represent their expertise in trade and persuasion - diplomacy is already a fairly nuanced skill. While the same might be said of piloting - in a sci-fi setting, this role typically takes on much more importance. As do each of the other themes described here, which require a level of training and transformation beyond that of most professions and backgrounds. So it would make sense for people who ascend in their social or environmental spheres in such fashions to be equally transformed. These themes are a good indication of what some of the more common exotic backgrounds in Starfinder's universe will be.
While a merchant's profession can potentially be just as nuanced as a pilot's, the perks of some professions can't be expressed as well with skills and ability scores alone, and require more thematic decoration to fully express their abilities. For example, haggling is a pretty process for a merchant's diplomacy skill, but where in the cosmos could you find a mechanic for forming a pidgin in a standard rule system? Themeless represents a conventional background, offering an edge to the adventurer practiced in common professions, but who are not any less equally able than their mercenary or ace pilot adventuring peers.
AnimatedPaper |
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Criminal Underworld: smugglers, runaways, mobsters - rely on their own wit, carefully chosen friends, a deep understanding of society's conventions and how to exploit them, and a good, old-fashioned belief in self-interest as a behavior that ties the world together. Domain of the Outlaw.
Frankly these sound a LOT more interesting than the ones in the blog post. I especially like Outlaw; I might not want to play a character that has a price on their head, but won't turn down playing someone working the fringe of society.
Ace pilot is kind of the awkward child of the bunch, isn't it? But I don't disagree with your guesses. Hopefully we'll see more on these sooner than later. I'm curious what an Ace Pilot Mystic or Envoy might look like. Edit: And it occurs to me that an Ace Pilot Mystic would be Anakin Skywalker.
To avoid narrowing the concept, I was purposely trying to avoid being too specific, but if you want a specific example, how about a fresh-out-of-college non-religious equal rights/voting rights activist, who has taken on the lofty ideal and dangerous occupation of making sure that everybody gets the right to vote, even if they are of an ethnic group that is locally discriminated against (for instance, in some backwater dumps that use dirty tricks to keep Androids effectively disenfranchised both economically and politically, despite this being illegal in the Pact Worlds)?
Outlaw possibly, then. Robin Hood was an outlaw, after all.
Obi Wan: old human solarian with Bounty Hunter theme and phrenic adept archetype
Hmm, bounty hunter in 1-3, but by 4 he had retrained to priest I would think.
Assuming retraining is still a thing,
Ventnor |
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lakobie wrote:UnArcaneElection wrote:Priest, Bounty Hunter, Scholar, Spacefarer and even Xenoseeker work for the character you suggested but since your not being specific and there are so many ways to inturpert "justice seeker" (are you judge dred? Batman? Phoniex Wright?) Its hard to pin downRhedyn wrote:UnArcaneElection wrote:So bounty hunter then...^Maybe . . . but I don't like tying the quest for justice to religion.
Not really -- for instance, assuming that the Bounty Hunter bonus stays on Strength, that doesn't reflect most lawyers and civil rights activists; and while lawyers and especially civil rights activists certainly have priests among their numbers, some of their numbers (especially lawyers) are most definitely not priests, and a decent subset of these do not have any philosophy of faith equivalent to religion.
To avoid narrowing the concept, I was purposely trying to avoid being too specific, but if you want a specific example, how about a fresh-out-of-college non-religious equal rights/voting rights activist, who has taken on the lofty ideal and dangerous occupation of making sure that everybody gets the right to vote, even if they are of an ethnic group that is locally discriminated against (for instance, in some backwater dumps that use dirty tricks to keep Androids effectively disenfranchised both economically and politically, despite this being illegal in the Pact Worlds)?
I'd say an Envoy with the Scholar theme.
Biztak |
Owen K. C. Stephens wrote:
Yep, and they'll get their own blog in the not-too-distant future.Or the REALLY distant future, depending on your point of view. ;)
I do hope to see more of both themes and archetypes, and that numbers of base classes get kept to a minimum - while it's great to have choice, in PF it sometimes feels like there's a bit TOO much overlap, rather than making classes more achetype- and feature-switching friendly, and good modular starting frameworks for the base classes will help that, I would like to think.
The idea of an Icon as the equivalent of a Youtube/Twitch star, giving their fans vlog updates on the road, in between adventures, is flipping awesome - even using in-character campaign write-ups as the "updates"
"What's shockin' your circuits, my people?! This is your favorite Android, Kevarr-3185, checkin' in with another report from the Vast 'Verse, in the Medrani cluster! Saw these INSANE insectoids today, hooked up, shared some Kombucha, exchanged some culture, man these guys were INTENSE! Made my buddy Obozaya look like a Shelyn cultist! I'll be back tomorrow with some stories and a BONUS -- these guys shared some of their MUSIC with me! Anyway, I gotta go finish this firefight! 'Til tomorrow, LOVE TO ALL, you've just been Kevarrated!" [/QUOTE
I was thinking more along the lines of a soldier livestreaming his fights
Imbicatus |
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ENHenry wrote:I was thinking more along the lines of a soldier livestreaming his fightsOwen K. C. Stephens wrote:
Yep, and they'll get their own blog in the not-too-distant future.Or the REALLY distant future, depending on your point of view. ;)
I do hope to see more of both themes and archetypes, and that numbers of base classes get kept to a minimum - while it's great to have choice, in PF it sometimes feels like there's a bit TOO much overlap, rather than making classes more achetype- and feature-switching friendly, and good modular starting frameworks for the base classes will help that, I would like to think.
The idea of an Icon as the equivalent of a Youtube/Twitch star, giving their fans vlog updates on the road, in between adventures, is flipping awesome - even using in-character campaign write-ups as the "updates"
"What's shockin' your circuits, my people?! This is your favorite Android, Kevarr-3185, checkin' in with another report from the Vast 'Verse, in the Medrani cluster! Saw these INSANE insectoids today, hooked up, shared some Kombucha, exchanged some culture, man these guys were INTENSE! Made my buddy Obozaya look like a Shelyn cultist! I'll be back tomorrow with some stories and a BONUS -- these guys shared some of their MUSIC with me! Anyway, I gotta go finish this firefight! 'Til tomorrow, LOVE TO ALL, you've just been Kevarrated!"
I love it. And for an example of an Envoy with the Icon Theme: Ruby Rhod.
Elorebaen |
Not to mention, I assume these are simply names given to a collection of stats. In others words, that you take the Outlaw theme does not maketh you an outlaw.
Opsylum wrote:Criminal Underworld: smugglers, runaways, mobsters - rely on their own wit, carefully chosen friends, a deep understanding of society's conventions and how to exploit them, and a good, old-fashioned belief in self-interest as a behavior that ties the world together. Domain of the Outlaw.Frankly these sound a LOT more interesting than the ones in the blog post. I especially like Outlaw; I might not want to play a character that has a price on their head, but won't turn down playing someone working the fringe of society.
Ace pilot is kind of the awkward child of the bunch, isn't it? But I don't disagree with your guesses. Hopefully we'll see more on these sooner than later. I'm curious what an Ace Pilot Mystic or Envoy might look like. Edit: And it occurs to me that an Ace Pilot Mystic would be Anakin Skywalker.
UnArcaneElection wrote:To avoid narrowing the concept, I was purposely trying to avoid being too specific, but if you want a specific example, how about a fresh-out-of-college non-religious equal rights/voting rights activist, who has taken on the lofty ideal and dangerous occupation of making sure that everybody gets the right to vote, even if they are of an ethnic group that is locally discriminated against (for instance, in some backwater dumps that use dirty tricks to keep Androids effectively disenfranchised both economically and politically, despite this being illegal in the Pact Worlds)?
Outlaw possibly, then. Robin Hood was an outlaw, after all.
Shisumo wrote:Obi Wan: old human solarian with Bounty Hunter theme and phrenic adept archetypeHmm, bounty hunter in 1-3, but by 4 he had retrained to priest I would think.
Assuming retraining is still a thing,
Ashanderai |
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Not to mention, I assume these are simply names given to a collection of stats. In others words, that you take the Outlaw theme does not maketh you an outlaw.
AnimatedPaper wrote:Opsylum wrote:Criminal Underworld: smugglers, runaways, mobsters - rely on their own wit, carefully chosen friends, a deep understanding of society's conventions and how to exploit them, and a good, old-fashioned belief in self-interest as a behavior that ties the world together. Domain of the Outlaw.Frankly these sound a LOT more interesting than the ones in the blog post. I especially like Outlaw; I might not want to play a character that has a price on their head, but won't turn down playing someone working the fringe of society.
Ace pilot is kind of the awkward child of the bunch, isn't it? But I don't disagree with your guesses. Hopefully we'll see more on these sooner than later. I'm curious what an Ace Pilot Mystic or Envoy might look like. Edit: And it occurs to me that an Ace Pilot Mystic would be Anakin Skywalker.
UnArcaneElection wrote:To avoid narrowing the concept, I was purposely trying to avoid being too specific, but if you want a specific example, how about a fresh-out-of-college non-religious equal rights/voting rights activist, who has taken on the lofty ideal and dangerous occupation of making sure that everybody gets the right to vote, even if they are of an ethnic group that is locally discriminated against (for instance, in some backwater dumps that use dirty tricks to keep Androids effectively disenfranchised both economically and politically, despite this being illegal in the Pact Worlds)?
Outlaw possibly, then. Robin Hood was an outlaw, after all.
Shisumo wrote:Obi Wan: old human solarian with Bounty Hunter theme and phrenic adept archetypeHmm, bounty hunter in 1-3, but by 4 he had retrained to priest I would think.
Assuming retraining is still a thing,
Owen's PaizoCon game of the Emerald Star Spire had a pre-gen character like this that was a mechanic with the Icon theme. It proved to be a lot of fun for everyone at the table as we theorized on the character's background and how his livestreaming audience was rating his performance, as well as the rest of us.
Owen K. C. Stephens Developer, Starfinder Team |
Torbyne |
UnArcaneElection wrote:Missing theme:I assume there are a bunch of missing themes, and I hope we'll be able to expand the list as the game matures. :)
Is one of the missing themes "missing" an amnesiac or lost person background? so we are missing the theme missing theme?
More seriously, do you see themes as a common approach to custimization on the future as Archetypes have been in Pathfinder? Or are the choose X Talent/Trick/Specialization abilities of the classes designed in such a way that the class ability lists could be grown over time?
Owen K. C. Stephens Developer, Starfinder Team |
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More seriously, do you see themes as a common approach to custimization on the future as Archetypes have been in Pathfinder? Or are the choose X Talent/Trick/Specialization abilities of the classes designed in such a way that the class ability lists could be grown over time?
We tried very hard to have an internally consistent idea of what a theme is, what a class is (and therefore what a class feature is), and what an archetype is.
I expect we'll expand all of those as the game matures. More themes allows for new high-concept options for characters, and may be tailored to be fairly broad while calling out an iconic example. If we did a Game Warden, we might well tie it to Castrovel, but that doesn't mean it couldn't also work for a Veskarium Poacher, or Free Caption Exotic Animal Smuggler.
Class features would continue to be things that make the most sense only for a specific class. For example, we can easily add new mythic connections as we explore more different ways to be a mystic. We'd be less likely to offer an alternate power that replaces mind link for the mystic, since that's a core part of that class concept (but even so if a good enough idea came along for a mystic who has a different kind of connective power, I could see us doing it).
All the classes have some kind of selectable customization, be that a single choice that is carried out throughout the class (such as mystic connections, operative specializations, soldier fighting styles, and the mechanics choice or exocortex or drone), and others that are discrete choices made periodically (such as the envoy's improvisations and expertise talents, m,echan ic tricks, operative exploits, solarian stellar revelations, soldier gear boosts, or technomancer magic hacks). Those are things that it easy for us to expand on where we have a good idea tied specifically to one class.
If something feels like a class feature, but is something we expect anyone should be able to do, or at least several different class concepts seem to support it, that's more likely to be a new feat (though we'll be keeping a stern eye on feat chains and feat prerequisites--we don't want to keep adding new options that require 4 or 5 previous options be taken, even if we accept that sometimes having 1 or 2 prerequisites just makes sense).
And if a concept feels like it's more than a theme but less than a class, and appears to be a separate line of training nearly anyone could access, we can build an appropriate archetype for it.
We tried to map these things out so we knew in advance where the most easily expandable places in the game are, so we don't have to shoehorn in a mechanic if we come up with a great idea later down the line.
Ventnor |
Torbyne wrote:More seriously, do you see themes as a common approach to custimization on the future as Archetypes have been in Pathfinder? Or are the choose X Talent/Trick/Specialization abilities of the classes designed in such a way that the class ability lists could be grown over time?We tried very hard to have an internally consistent idea of what a theme is, what a class is (and therefore what a class feature is), and what an archetype is.
I expect we'll expand all of those as the game matures. More themes allows for new high-concept options for characters, and may be tailored to be fairly broad while calling out an iconic example. If we did a Game Warden, we might well tie it to Castrovel, but that doesn't mean it couldn't also work for a Veskarium Poacher, or Free Caption Exotic Animal Smuggler.
Class features would continue to be things that make the most sense only for a specific class. For example, we can easily add new mythic connections as we explore more different ways to be a mystic. We'd be less likely to offer an alternate power that replaces mind link for the mystic, since that's a core part of that class concept (but even so if a good enough idea came along for a mystic who has a different kind of connective power, I could see us doing it).
All the classes have some kind of selectable customization, be that a single choice that is carried out throughout the class (such as mystic connections, operative specializations, soldier fighting styles, and the mechanics choice or exocortex or drone), and others that are discrete choices made periodically (such as the envoy's improvisations and expertise talents, m,echan ic tricks, operative exploits, solarian stellar revelations, soldier gear boosts, or technomancer magic hacks). Those are things that it easy for us to expand on where we have a good idea tied specifically to one class.
If something feels like a class feature, but is something we expect anyone should be able to do, or at least several different class concepts...
It sounds like the team has put a lot of thought into how different PC systems interact with each other.
Mark Seifter Designer |
15 people marked this as a favorite. |
It sounds like the team has put a lot of thought into how different PC systems interact with each other.
Owen's point on the separation of features is critical to avoid a situation where you wind up somewhere down the line with, to use themes as an example, some theme that isn't really a high-concept option but instead gives outsized benefits to, say, mystics (based on its concept, the priest theme could have been at risk of doing this but doesn't do so, in my opinion), and then if you don't pick that theme with mystic, you're a significantly worse mystic than the people who do, thus creating a perception of restricted options for themes. By using Owen's separations, themes can be themes and you can pick the theme you want based on your picture of the character in your head without worrying about whether it's a "bad" choice for your character class/race/etc. This is because the theme literally makes you good at being the theme, so for instance, if you want to be an icon, the icon makes you better at that, and there's not really a situation where you would be mechanically incentivized to take the icon theme for its powers even though you thought being a spacefarer would be cooler. If all that makes sense?
UnArcaneElection |
{. . .}
UnArcaneElection wrote:To avoid narrowing the concept, I was purposely trying to avoid being too specific, but if you want a specific example, how about a fresh-out-of-college non-religious equal rights/voting rights activist, who has taken on the lofty ideal and dangerous occupation of making sure that everybody gets the right to vote, even if they are of an ethnic group that is locally discriminated against (for instance, in some backwater dumps that use dirty tricks to keep Androids effectively disenfranchised both economically and politically, despite this being illegal in the Pact Worlds)?
Outlaw possibly, then. Robin Hood was an outlaw, after all.
{. . .}
Maybe . . . but that leads to the odd situation in which some people trying to do what I am saying are acting perfectly within the law (even though they aren't cops), but still putting their lives on the line against entrenched interests who would rather redefine the law to be what is to their benefit, even if they can't get their concept onto the books (or their concept is written in the books, but was overturned by the courts).
Shadrayl of the Mountain |
Ventnor wrote:It sounds like the team has put a lot of thought into how different PC systems interact with each other.Owen's point on the separation of features is critical to avoid a situation where you wind up somewhere down the line with, to use themes as an example, some theme that isn't really a high-concept option but instead gives outsized benefits to, say, mystics (based on its concept, the priest theme could have been at risk of doing this but doesn't do so, in my opinion), and then if you don't pick that theme with mystic, you're a significantly worse mystic than the people who do, thus creating a perception of restricted options for themes. By using Owen's separations, themes can be themes and you can pick the theme you want based on your picture of the character in your head without worrying about whether it's a "bad" choice for your character class/race/etc. This is because the theme literally makes you good at being the theme, so for instance, if you want to be an icon, the icon makes you better at that, and there's not really a situation where you would be mechanically incentivized to take the icon theme for its powers even though you thought being a spacefarer would be cooler. If all that makes sense?
I'm curious to see how this will all pan out with freelancers and 3rd party down the line. Will there be some sort of guidance put out on how to maintain these separations? All in all, it seems like a great idea so far, though.
Mark Seifter Designer |
Mark Seifter wrote:I'm curious to see how this will all pan out with freelancers and 3rd party down the line. Will there be some sort of guidance put out on how to maintain these separations? All in all, it seems like a great idea so far, though.Ventnor wrote:It sounds like the team has put a lot of thought into how different PC systems interact with each other.Owen's point on the separation of features is critical to avoid a situation where you wind up somewhere down the line with, to use themes as an example, some theme that isn't really a high-concept option but instead gives outsized benefits to, say, mystics (based on its concept, the priest theme could have been at risk of doing this but doesn't do so, in my opinion), and then if you don't pick that theme with mystic, you're a significantly worse mystic than the people who do, thus creating a perception of restricted options for themes. By using Owen's separations, themes can be themes and you can pick the theme you want based on your picture of the character in your head without worrying about whether it's a "bad" choice for your character class/race/etc. This is because the theme literally makes you good at being the theme, so for instance, if you want to be an icon, the icon makes you better at that, and there's not really a situation where you would be mechanically incentivized to take the icon theme for its powers even though you thought being a spacefarer would be cooler. If all that makes sense?
We have a stronger in-house design guide for the separations than ever existed in PF's 1st days so it should be less common, and as always, everyone will do their best to avoid them, but I'm sure there will eventually be a theme (or other feature) that violates these guideline somewhere down the line; it's inevitable in a mature enough game system with enough options in enough books. If you see a new feature that's causing your group issues (say a theme that's diverting away player choice from other themes), that's going to be something you want to come to a group consensus to drop from your game, and hopefully if it's pressuring players into feeling like they're letting the team down to pick the theme they want, it'll be something players and GM alike can agree to drop together.
Torbyne |
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Shadrayl of the Mountain wrote:We have a stronger in-house design guide for the separations than ever existed in PF's 1st days so it should be less common, and as always, everyone will do their best to avoid them, but I'm sure there will eventually be a theme (or other feature) that violates these guideline somewhere down the line; it's inevitable in a mature enough game system with enough options in enough books. If you see a new feature that's causing your group issues (say a theme that's diverting away player choice...Mark Seifter wrote:I'm curious to see how this will all pan out with freelancers and 3rd party down the line. Will there be some sort of guidance put out on how to maintain these separations? All in all, it seems like a great idea so far, though.Ventnor wrote:It sounds like the team has put a lot of thought into how different PC systems interact with each other.Owen's point on the separation of features is critical to avoid a situation where you wind up somewhere down the line with, to use themes as an example, some theme that isn't really a high-concept option but instead gives outsized benefits to, say, mystics (based on its concept, the priest theme could have been at risk of doing this but doesn't do so, in my opinion), and then if you don't pick that theme with mystic, you're a significantly worse mystic than the people who do, thus creating a perception of restricted options for themes. By using Owen's separations, themes can be themes and you can pick the theme you want based on your picture of the character in your head without worrying about whether it's a "bad" choice for your character class/race/etc. This is because the theme literally makes you good at being the theme, so for instance, if you want to be an icon, the icon makes you better at that, and there's not really a situation where you would be mechanically incentivized to take the icon theme for its powers even though you thought being a spacefarer would be cooler. If all that makes sense?
... So. That "1" key is pretty far away from the "f" key on most english keyboards. Is that a term used at Paizo to refer to Pathfinder? If so that sort of raises questions as to why you need to differentiate it from anything else with the PF initials.
Mark Seifter Designer |
Mark Seifter wrote:...Shadrayl of the Mountain wrote:We have a stronger in-house design guide for the separations than ever existed in PF's 1st days so it should be less common, and as always, everyone will do their best to avoid them, but I'm sure there will eventually be a theme (or other feature) that violates these guideline somewhere down the line; it's inevitable in a mature enough game system with enough options in enough books. If you see a new feature that's causing your group issues (say a theme that'sMark Seifter wrote:I'm curious to see how this will all pan out with freelancers and 3rd party down the line. Will there be some sort of guidance put out on how to maintain these separations? All in all, it seems like a great idea so far, though.Ventnor wrote:It sounds like the team has put a lot of thought into how different PC systems interact with each other.Owen's point on the separation of features is critical to avoid a situation where you wind up somewhere down the line with, to use themes as an example, some theme that isn't really a high-concept option but instead gives outsized benefits to, say, mystics (based on its concept, the priest theme could have been at risk of doing this but doesn't do so, in my opinion), and then if you don't pick that theme with mystic, you're a significantly worse mystic than the people who do, thus creating a perception of restricted options for themes. By using Owen's separations, themes can be themes and you can pick the theme you want based on your picture of the character in your head without worrying about whether it's a "bad" choice for your character class/race/etc. This is because the theme literally makes you good at being the theme, so for instance, if you want to be an icon, the icon makes you better at that, and there's not really a situation where you would be mechanically incentivized to take the icon theme for its powers even though you thought being a spacefarer would be cooler. If all that makes sense?
It's a Pathfinder vs Starfinder thing. Sorry! I tend to call Pathfinder PF and Starfinder SF (and other weirder abbreviations throughout the process).
Torbyne |
It's a Pathfinder vs Starfinder thing. Sorry! I tend to call Pathfinder PF and Starfinder SF (and other weirder abbreviations).
No worries, i think using PF as short hand for Pathfinder is pretty common and easy enough to pick up from context, i was curious if that part was to make it stand out from Stafinder as in PF1/SF2 or if it differentiates pathfinder product lines in house somehow.
Mark Seifter Designer |
Mark Seifter wrote:It's a Pathfinder vs Starfinder thing. Sorry! I tend to call Pathfinder PF and Starfinder SF (and other weirder abbreviations).No worries, i think using PF as short hand for Pathfinder is pretty common and easy enough to pick up from context, i was curious if the PF1 part was to make it stand out from Stafinder as in PF1/SF2 or if it differentiates pathfinder product lines in house somehow.
Yeah, we have a lot of weird PZO numbers on products (which I barely understand and am shocked that some teams got right John's question about them two years ago in the trivia contest) that has different numbers for the Core line (starting at PZO1110) than other lines, and other abbreviations. There was definitely a PFA1/SFB2 time for me for a little while when I was having trouble keeping them straight pingponging across the two systems. I should probably abbreviate less when it just makes things confusing.
Mark Seifter Designer |
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Owen K. C. Stephens wrote:UnArcaneElection wrote:Missing theme:I assume there are a bunch of missing themes, and I hope we'll be able to expand the list as the game matures. :)Is one of the missing themes "missing" an amnesiac or lost person background? so we are missing the theme missing theme?
More seriously, do you see themes as a common approach to custimization on the future as Archetypes have been in Pathfinder? Or are the choose X Talent/Trick/Specialization abilities of the classes designed in such a way that the class ability lists could be grown over time?
Weirdly, one of my favorite playtester theme usage was a technomancer envoy who joined the party in a weird unexpected place and ran with that for her backstory: she was a famous techie a la Bill Gates or Mark Zuckerberg who vanished suddenly like Amelia Earhart, and the PCs found her and were like "Whoah, we just found IconChar!" So she managed to use icon to handle "missing" but it probably won't work in many cases.
Torbyne |
Torbyne wrote:Weirdly, one of my favorite playtester theme usage was a technomancer envoy who joined the party in a weird unexpected place and ran with that for her backstory: she was a famous techie a la Bill Gates or Mark Zuckerberg who vanished suddenly like Amelia Earhart, and the PCs found her and were like "Whoah, we just found IconChar!" So she managed to use icon to handle "missing" but it probably won't work in many cases.Owen K. C. Stephens wrote:UnArcaneElection wrote:Missing theme:I assume there are a bunch of missing themes, and I hope we'll be able to expand the list as the game matures. :)Is one of the missing themes "missing" an amnesiac or lost person background? so we are missing the theme missing theme?
More seriously, do you see themes as a common approach to custimization on the future as Archetypes have been in Pathfinder? Or are the choose X Talent/Trick/Specialization abilities of the classes designed in such a way that the class ability lists could be grown over time?
That is actually a fun way to handle the scenario. It makes me wonder about icons in general though, would an icon have trouble disguising themselves as someone else or get a bonus from having to do it more often than someone who isnt an icon? it might not be a good thing to be well known for who you are in every situation...
Mark Seifter Designer |
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Mark Seifter wrote:That is actually a fun way to handle the scenario. It makes me wonder about icons in general though, would an icon have trouble disguising themselves as someone else or get a bonus from having to do it more often than someone who isnt an icon? it might not be a good thing to be well known for who you are in every situation...Torbyne wrote:Weirdly, one of my favorite playtester theme usage was a technomancer envoy who joined the party in a weird unexpected place and ran with that for her backstory: she was a famous techie a la Bill Gates or Mark Zuckerberg who vanished suddenly like Amelia Earhart, and the PCs found her and were like "Whoah, we just found IconChar!" So she managed to use icon to handle "missing" but it probably won't work in many cases.Owen K. C. Stephens wrote:UnArcaneElection wrote:Missing theme:I assume there are a bunch of missing themes, and I hope we'll be able to expand the list as the game matures. :)Is one of the missing themes "missing" an amnesiac or lost person background? so we are missing the theme missing theme?
More seriously, do you see themes as a common approach to custimization on the future as Archetypes have been in Pathfinder? Or are the choose X Talent/Trick/Specialization abilities of the classes designed in such a way that the class ability lists could be grown over time?
Being an icon means you want to be recognized (as the player, anyway, I imagine the character might not fully embrace their celebrity depending on the concept), at least when you're not in disguise. It's definitely going to get harder and harder to walk around in no disguise and just pass as a normal Jane if you're an icon, but on the other hand, the power of celebrity can be very helpful when you're providing a distraction for your teammates. Icons literally have a power that makes the equivalent of the Knowledge (local) DC to have heard of you decrease as you advance as an icon, providing a concrete way for the GM to figure out if NPCs have heard of you or not.