Class Preview: The Soldier

I bet that since Merciful weapons likely can't damage machines (extrapolating from Constructs), Merciful rocket launchers are excellent weapons for pacifying a starship in deep space without worrying about punching holes in anything important.

Owen K. C. Stephens wrote:

David knott 242 wrote:

Since soldiers are proficient with light and heavy armor, I would infer that they have eliminated the medium armor category.

And you would be correct. :)

So did most Medium armor get squeezed into Light, into Heavy, or more or less an even split between these?

Pretty sure medium armor from pathfinder is in museums. As is their heavy and light armor. This is the future of lightweight and heavy high tech gear.

I really don't understand the strong Will save - Reflex in addition to Fortitude I could understand, but Will does not seem appropriate, particularly not for a class named for a profession the training regimen of which has always heavily emphasized the breaking of one's will.

Granted, it might work for the "authority-resisting lone wolf" archetype (which isn't really a 'soldier,' but okay), but maybe an Archetype/variant/kit is what that should be, rather than the default of the class. Give the default either a strong Reflex save or (even better) a higher HD.

Also, if there's going to be an "arcane warrior" fighting style, why not also a "holy warrior/chaplain?"

I really don't understand the strong Will save - Reflex in addition to Fortitude I could understand, but Will does not seem appropriate, particularly not for a class named for a profession the training regimen of which heavily emphasizing the breaking of the will.

Granted, it might work for the "authority-resisting lone wolf" archetype (which isn't really a 'soldier,' but okay), but maybe an Archetype/variant/kit is what that should be, rather than the default of the class. Give the default either a strong Reflex save or (even better) a higher HD.

Also, if there's going to be an "arcane warrior" specialization, why not also a "holy warrior/chaplain?"

I think its just because everyone complained so much about the PFigther have a low will save.

I think its just because everyone complained so much about the PFigther have a low will save.

I want to give them the benefit of the doubt, but I do have a bad feeling that a lot of this is the result of Paizo caving to the various perennial foregone-conclusion bandwagons we see around here.

Gunslingers and Kineticists have poor Will saves, too, and are similarly nasty when victimized by mind control (then again, almost anyone is); do people complain about them?

Vidmaster7 wrote:

I think its just because everyone complained so much about the PFigther have a low will save.

I want to give them the benefit of the doubt, but I do have a bad feeling a lot of this is the result of Paizo caving to the various perennial bandwagons we see around here.

Yeah I'd rather not think that way too. It doesn't really bother me if they have a good will save and maybe their is something in their training to strengthen their will power. I could see mental focusing being a thing.

Yeah I'd rather not think that way too. It doesn't really bother me if they have a good will save and maybe their is something in their training to strengthen their will power. I could see mental focusing being a thing.

It could be like how Clerics have better Will saves than Sorcerers - not really "will," but faith in some external source.

Vidmaster7 wrote:

Yeah I'd rather not think that way too. It doesn't really bother me if they have a good will save and maybe their is something in their training to strengthen their will power. I could see mental focusing being a thing.

It could be like how Clerics have better Will saves than Sorcerers - not really "will," but faith in some external source.

Or mental training against torture and things that would damage morale. I could see in the future how mental conditioning could be just as important to soldiers as physical and they probably would actually be good at it by then.

Or mental training against torture and things that would damage morale. I could see in the future how mental conditioning could be just as important to soldiers as physical and they probably would actually be good at it by then.

That's not really "will" we're talking about anymore, though. That has to come from within. It could be a lot like the Mesmerist's Towering Ego - robust, but with feet of clay.

I don't know, traditionally, fictitious soldier/fighter protagonists do tend to have a lot of willpower, determined to pursue their goals with grim implacability. I mean, that might not be realistic for all soldiers, but I do feel like it has enough representation in fiction that it's understandable...

Edit: Of course, what exactly 'Will' is in Pathfinder has always been strange to me...it doesn't seem much like actual willpower...

I think it's more a grim toughness of both mind and body. The soldier willing to wade through heavy gunfire, stand firm against hordes of implacable enemies, or go toe to toe with unspeakable horrors from the depths of the void. Which has a wide number of examples from fantasy and sci-fi literature.

The soldier looks like they learned a lot from what worked well and what didn't with the pathfinder fighter.

I think the Arcane Assailant js actually just an unfortunate name. Since various magic types all have been meld into one there is no reason that it also can't represent the holy wareior type with some reflavoring of varioius abilities. Especially if you go and pick the priest theme.

Also really really pleased to see feat chains have been hacked down somewhat. Just comparing SF's Shot on the Run to PF's, it requires slightly higher Dex but 2 fewer feats. Almost all of my group's houserules involve eliminating/reducing feat taxes, so this will be very well received :)

And the higher Dex requirement will not be a significant issue...

I hope the jump jet's mentioned are gear and not an option for a class ability.

Yep, jump jets and flight packs are both armor upgrades anyone can buy.

Soldiers should have high will saves from their training and experience.

Resisting fear and combat stress, anti-interrorgation training, the discipline soldiers are known for etc.

However, they may also be conditioned to obey orders and not think for themselves unless they happen to be the highest ranking personnel present. None of which says low will save to me. Opinions may vary. :)

Owen K. C. Stephens wrote:

David knott 242 wrote:

Since soldiers are proficient with light and heavy armor, I would infer that they have eliminated the medium armor category.

And you would be correct. :)

So did most Medium armor get squeezed into Light, into Heavy, or more or less an even split between these?

Medium armor never really existed in Starfinder. Since we didn't want to port low-tech leather and chainmail over, we did a whole new math tree to determine armor effectiveness, using our new ability score calculations, potential accuracy bonus rebalancing, potential defense bonus rebalancing, and armor upgrade slots. So light and heavy were one way of having a stronger differentiation and making sure it's meaningful.

Also, if there's going to be an "arcane warrior" fighting style, why not also a "holy warrior/chaplain?"

There's really no "arcane" magic or "holy" magic. There's just magic, though there are several different religious traditions which teach magic is a divine gift.

So you could probably play a Soldier with the arcane assailant specialization and the priest theme to get a paladin-type character, I think.

UnArcaneElection wrote:

Owen K. C. Stephens wrote:

David knott 242 wrote:

Since soldiers are proficient with light and heavy armor, I would infer that they have eliminated the medium armor category.

And you would be correct. :)

So did most Medium armor get squeezed into Light, into Heavy, or more or less an even split between these?

Medium armor never really existed in Starfinder. Since we didn't want to port low-tech leather and chainmail over, we did a whole new math tree to determine armor effectiveness, using our new ability score calculations, potential accuracy bonus rebalancing, potential defense bonus rebalancing, and armor upgrade slots. So light and heavy were one way of having a stronger differentiation and making sure it's meaningful.

Oh yes :) When are we going to get a preview about all that sweet, sweet math?

Bombard: the opposite. Focus on blading big and hard.

My guess would be that this is the heavy weapons dude: Rocket launchers, rotary laser arrays, FGMPs, etc.

Medium armor slows you down as much as heavy armor does, so there are only two reasons to treat medium and heavy armor separately:

1) Proficiency: Many Pathfinder classes are proficient with medium but not heavy armor.

2) Special materials: Mithral is among the special materials that lets you treat armor made from it as one category lighter.

I can easily see neither of the above applying to Starfinder, so anyone stealing a suit of non-mithral chainmail from a museum in Starfinder would have a bulky and less effective than expected suit of heavy armor.

Extrapolating from this picture it looks like Soldiers have a D12 hit dice.

Extrapolating from this picture it looks like Soldiers have a D12 hit dice.

That is quite the wealth of info right there. Great! Also, two-handed melee weapons look brutal in damage up against the other weapons.

I really don't understand the strong Will save - Reflex in addition to Fortitude I could understand, but Will does not seem appropriate, particularly not for a class named for a profession the training regimen of which has always heavily emphasized the breaking of one's will.

Granted, it might work for the "authority-resisting lone wolf" archetype (which isn't really a 'soldier,' but okay), but maybe an Archetype/variant/kit is what that should be, rather than the default of the class. Give the default either a strong Reflex save or (even better) a higher HD.

Also, if there's going to be an "arcane warrior" fighting style, why not also a "holy warrior/chaplain?"

As someone who served as a soldier for 8 years, I can say that your understanding of that training regimen is inaccurate. The training begins with breaking down your will and personality to a point where you can follow orders without thinking. At that point it is now a process are building up your will so that you can stand strong against overwhelming odds even in the face of certain death. Willpower has nothing to do with faith or external sources. The most widely used phrase I heard during all my military training was this: "Get your mind right." The body can only do so much (Fort) and at a certain point it is only through ones' Willpower that you can succeed.

I believe that a strong Will save for the Soldier class as an accurate representation of a modern soldier makes perfect sense. I don't even really care about metagame purposes.

Very well said. Couldn't agree more,high Will is perfect for the soldier.

TheGoofyGE3K wrote:

Bombard: the opposite. Focus on blading big and hard.

My guess would be that this is the heavy weapons dude: Rocket launchers, rotary laser arrays, FGMPs, etc.

Agreed! That should've said blasting lol

Given that Will saves are used to resist things like fear, getting rattled by explosions, and outright mind control that the militaries of Starfinder would be well aware of, given the existence of telepathic species...

A poor Will save would not only sell short actual military training as it is practiced, it would mean that Starfinder's militiaries were one artillery barrage away from a panicked rout.

I've NEVER liked poor Will saves on direct combat types- even in D&D/PF, they're the ones who face down things like dragons and giants without being able to shoot lightning bolts out of their hands or mystically heal themselves in mid-battle. That takes a measure of mental fortitude.

Discipline is kind of their thing.

That is quite the wealth of info right there. Great! Also, two-handed melee weapons look brutal in damage up against the other weapons.

Just to keep honest, I didn't do the work to make that legible. That was an Anthony Walls on another thread.

Stone Dog wrote:

Extrapolating from this picture it looks like Soldiers have a D12 hit dice.

That is quite the wealth of info right there. Great! Also, two-handed melee weapons look brutal in damage up against the other weapons.

Apparently, Pathfinder-era weapons, including unarmed strike, are going to be called "archaic" weapons.

I think that damage scaling for the Soldier will be accomplished by specializations, gear boosts, and fighting styles. I also think based on your style there will be utility on the battlefield.

I also do not have problem with Soldiers having good Will saves. I think soldiers see and overcome allot of horrific things in battle. Combine that with training a good will save makes sense to me.

I think in the past the fighter has been tide to bad will save good fortitude related to mechanics of than anything else. If a Fighter had good will save, then many of the spells a caster has or monster abilities are not as effective. It was a mechanics thing rather than based on logic. If you think about it why would a fighter have bad will save. They stand up front fighting horde of orcs, giants, dragons, or worse. So saying fighter does not have the courage or will to fight through there fear does not make allot of sense. So I applaud Starfinder for putting that mechanic and concept of the fighter/soldier having poor will save upside down. Throwing it out.

So I am going to guess that there may be a little something to when you take hit point damage. I have mentioned it on multiple post asked Mr. Owens K Stephens directly and no answer. A simple no would be easy if it would not have any kind effects.

Finally wanted to thank the person said they were soldier for 8 years. Thank you for your service!

Dave2

Extrapolating from this picture it looks like Soldiers have a D12 hit dice.

Where's that from? :O

Extrapolating from this picture it looks like Soldiers have a D12 hit dice.

Not only do soldiers not have d12 Hit Points, but the question of "What Hit Dice do Soldiers Get?" is actually meaningless in Starfinder.

Stone Dog wrote:

Extrapolating from this picture it looks like Soldiers have a D12 hit dice.

Where's that from? :O

PaizoCon!

Several of the Paizo employees who worked on Starfinder are running Starinder games here at the convention, and have access to the first draft of the Starfinder Society Pregenerated Characters.

Stone Dog wrote:

Extrapolating from this picture it looks like Soldiers have a D12 hit dice.

Not only do soldiers not have d212 Hit Points, but the question of "What Hit Dice do Soldiers Get?" is actually meaningless in Starfinder.

Darn. I wanted to use my over-200 sided die for something. :P

Stone Dog wrote:

Extrapolating from this picture it looks like Soldiers have a D12 hit dice.

Not only do soldiers not have d212 Hit Points, but the question of "What Hit Dice do Soldiers Get?" is actually meaningless in Starfinder.

Now THAT tidbit has me very excited! I do hope Starfinder is a little less about massive HP pools and more about armor reducing injury and utilizing Cover/Concealment! That was my biggest hangup on D20 Modern... I can get behind the abstraction of HP for a fantasy model, but getting shot over and over and over and over again before you finally drop is just beyond my ability for suspension of disbelief.

I can get behind the abstraction of HP for a fantasy model, but getting shot over and over and over and over again before you finally drop is just beyond my ability for suspension of disbelief.

Huh. I have no more trouble with it than I do a character being hit by an eight-pound length of sharpened steel over and over.

Faelyn wrote:

I can get behind the abstraction of HP for a fantasy model, but getting shot over and over and over and over again before you finally drop is just beyond my ability for suspension of disbelief.

Huh. I have no more trouble with it than I do a character being hit by an eight-pound length of sharpened steel over and over.

'Ere now! Wot's all this then?

Stone Dog wrote:

Extrapolating from this picture it looks like Soldiers have a D12 hit dice.

Not only do soldiers not have d12 Hit Points, but the question of "What Hit Dice do Soldiers Get?" is actually meaningless in Starfinder.

I see two possible interpretations here.

I would agree with Mr. Stephens on the point of weather it is ranged or melee weapons Pathfinder, D&D 5, or Starfinder it is about heroic characters that are super human. They are not on the more simulationist perspective when it comes to damage. So weather the characters are hit by sword or gun or massive balls of fire they are able to keep going because they are superheroes. They are able to shrug off damage that would kill the normal person. That has always been my take on it.

That will lead me to my last point on damage. I would guess Mr. Stephens has read my post couple of times about weather or not there is any kind of effect for taking hit point damage other than slower to heal. So since there has not been the simple answer of no there is not. Could we get a preview of damage and effects?

Dave2

Faelyn wrote:

I can get behind the abstraction of HP for a fantasy model, but getting shot over and over and over and over again before you finally drop is just beyond my ability for suspension of disbelief.

Huh. I have no more trouble with it than I do a character being hit by an eight-pound length of sharpened steel over and over.

I started to say something along the lines of "at least with fantasy models I can imagine the hit being less of an actual strike and more of a close parry that wears down the hero's combat prowess", but really when I think about it, the same thing can be done with any system/model.

Mind. Blown. August just needs to hurry up and arrive so I can fork over more of my cash to you fine folks at Paizo. I have full faith that Starfinder is going to be amazing.

Owen K. C. Stephens wrote:

Stone Dog wrote:

Extrapolating from this picture it looks like Soldiers have a D12 hit dice.

Not only do soldiers not have d12 Hit Points, but the question of "What Hit Dice do Soldiers Get?" is actually meaningless in Starfinder.

I see two possible interpretations here.

1> Hit dice don't come from your class, but from some other source, possibly theme?
2> There aren't hit dice PER SAY, but something (probably class) grants you a static number of HP per level, which is functionally exactly the same as HP works in PFS or D&D Adventurers league, but we're going to pretend it's different because we don't use the words "Hit Dice". And the soldier has a d12 hit die.

I think it's more straightforward than that:

Not sure if HP increases with level or not.

So, no hit dice? I guess it will just be a standardized progression based on bab. Makes sense considering we're supposed to be able to play just about any race. I'm still dubious, but I may just like this.

So, no hit dice? I guess it will just be a standardized progression based on bab. Makes sense considering we're supposed to be able to play just about any race. I'm still dubious, but I may just like this.

My simpliest, easiest answer is HP=LevelxCON value. it adds a great incentive for everyone to invest some and means no one is overly squishy. with stamina allowing you to re-up between fights no less it would give everyone a lot more longevity. But also means that you can give everyone scaling weapons since HP is going to be a lot higher.

I'd like to point out how cool it is that a level 1 soldier has essentially over 20hp at level 1 thanks to stamina

Steven "Troll" O'Neal wrote:

So, no hit dice? I guess it will just be a standardized progression based on bab. Makes sense considering we're supposed to be able to play just about any race. I'm still dubious, but I may just like this.

My simpliest, easiest answer is HP=LevelxCON value. it adds a great incentive for everyone to invest some and means no one is overly squishy. with stamina allowing you to re-up between fights no less it would give everyone a lot more longevity. But also means that you can give everyone scaling weapons since HP is going to be a lot higher.

That would be simple, though it'd mean everything would need a level. Even though it is a science fantasy game I don't like the idea of a level 7 dragon, it feels a little too much like a video game.

Hmm trying to figure out the attributes with respect to racial bonuses and point buy amount of points.

It doesn't seem to add up in a way that a Pathfinder race would.

Jaaaaayyyynnnne! The man they call.... Jayyyyynnnne!

So this is what it feels like to go insane.

Steven "Troll" O'Neal wrote:

So, no hit dice? I guess it will just be a standardized progression based on bab. Makes sense considering we're supposed to be able to play just about any race. I'm still dubious, but I may just like this.

My simpliest, easiest answer is HP=LevelxCON value. it adds a great incentive for everyone to invest some and means no one is overly squishy. with stamina allowing you to re-up between fights no less it would give everyone a lot more longevity. But also means that you can give everyone scaling weapons since HP is going to be a lot higher.

Don't forget that we've got hit points, and then we have stamina points (which I assume is Obo's "8 SP"), and the latter are more equivalent to Pathfinder's hit points as I understand it. I suspect everyone gets HP = Con, but then stamina is more dependent on class and level. If we're going to play "assume too much based on too little data," I would speculate that soldiers get 7(+Con mod) SP/level, making them the equivalent of d12 characters in Pathfinder.

I think it's more straightforward than that:
starting Hit Points = Con score
SP (Stamina points) come from class. (8, in this case, or everyone just defaults to 8 maybe?)
Resolve points (RP) are 4.

Not sure if HP increases with level or not.

My hunch is that it will be based on something like the wound/vitality system.

With the notable difference being that instead of Wound Points you have Hit Points and instead of Vitality Points you have Stamina Points.

I would also expect HP to remain at their starting value when a character goes up in level and it will be SP that increase per level.

Faelyn wrote:

Jaaaaayyyynnnne! The man they call.... Jayyyyynnnne!

So this is what it feels like to go insane.

{slides a frosty Mudder's Milk down to Redblade8} Insanity will go easier on ya if'n ya don't fight it.

That would be simple, though it'd mean everything would need a level. Even though it is a science fantasy game I don't like the idea of a level 7 dragon, it feels a little too much like a video game.

There already are Level 7 dragons... A Wyrmling Red Dragon is a level 7 dragon.