The Monster Within

Seeing as how the Corruptions are optional character options, like VMC, I find that very unlikely.

Dragon78 wrote:

The cleric elder mythos one sounds interesting.

Being someone who is getting into Lovecraft I was really excited to see this..... but this is balanced with Paizo poor track record with cleric archetypes.

I dont want to be a negative Nancy but the fact that it is a CHA based cleric, for me is a big red warning light! The clerics Will save has just been halved straight away!! :(((

I'm pretty sure that archetype is gonna be meant for NPCs, specifically boss NPCs. Besides, I don't think anyone with a good will save would worship most eldritch entities.

I mean if you're that worried about your will save play a half-elf with the dual minded alternate trait and take 2 levels of mesmerist. That said, a bit of a waste when clerics have a reflex save that's easier to exploit most of the time.

Harleequin wrote:

Dragon78 wrote:

The cleric elder mythos one sounds interesting.

Being someone who is getting into Lovecraft I was really excited to see this..... but this is balanced with Paizo poor track record with cleric archetypes.

I dont want to be a negative Nancy but the fact that it is a CHA based cleric, for me is a big red warning light! The clerics Will save has just been halved straight away!! :(((

I'm pretty sure that archetype is gonna be meant for NPCs, specifically boss NPCs. Besides, I don't think anyone with a good will save would worship most eldritch entities.

I mean if you're that worried about your will save play a half-elf with the dual minded alternate trait and take 2 levels of mesmerist. That said, a bit of a waste when clerics have a reflex save that's easier to exploit most of the time.

Hmm, maybe they'll get an ability that lets them add their CHA to Will saves instead of WIS?

You wouldn't have that problem if Paizo stopped being so scared of letting people have Charisma to will. It opens up character options AND makes thematic sense.

Though honestly the cleric/druid/shaman/etc will save is kind of obnoxious anyways.

Seriously do you guys think that oracles and sorcerers are weak?

That being said, I doubt that anyone thinks the wizard, oracle or the sorcerer to be bad because they aren't wisdom based.

But thats the whole point of class balance....the cleric misses out on a whole lot compared to those guys in terms of class abilities/spells BUT he does at least get a great Will save. Its not massive but its something.

Take that away just so he can get better at channeling??!?!?

A double slap in the face if there ever was one!!

You wouldn't have that problem if Paizo stopped being so scared of letting people have Charisma to will. It opens up character options AND makes thematic sense.

Though honestly the cleric/druid/shaman/etc will save is kind of obnoxious anyways.

Let me guess... you're one of the crowd that thought Divine Protection was a reasonably balanced feat?!? ;))

Har, do you seriously think that a worshiper of eldritch deities can fit into a party without much effort?

Not really. The cleric also has better prodiciencies, fortitude saves and casting than those classes.

Not to mention charisma focused channel energy can be amazing with the proper build.

I'm pretty sure that archetype is gonna be meant for NPCs, specifically boss NPCs.

Make that a triple face slap!

Besides, I don't think anyone with a good will save would worship most eldritch entities.

I completely disagree.... I think your Will save would have to be great!

Not really. The cleric also has better prodiciencies, fortitude saves and casting than those classes.

Not to mention charisma focused channel energy can be amazing with the proper build.

In the case of the cultist, you also get goodies like dark knowledge and the ability to drive others mad with a gaze (eventually permanently insane if they fail the save). But as the description says, you're more than a little bit mad yourself by the time you have this archetype. It's not for you if you want to be good at resisting insanity.

Har, do you seriously think that a worshiper of eldritch deities can fit into a party without much effort?

I dont see why not Hyper...

a)Great Old Ones/Outer Gods range from CN to NE to CE.... with the one alignment step rule for clerics, this gives loads of options.

b) There are loads of LE, NE and CE deities already listed and quite a few already have deific obedience info listed.

I think HyperMissingNo's point is that worshiping a Mythos deity is about more than alignment. You can be chaotic good, sure (although it'll be weird). But you should never be just another chaotic good cleric.

It's legal. But it's certainly not in keeping with what those deities represent.

That said? Do whatever you want. It's your campaign.

Actually I do believe there is a feat out there for faithful or divine casting characters that allows CHA to Will saves... I can't remember where though.

I think HyperMissingNo's point is that worshiping a Mythos deity is about more than alignment. You can be chaotic good, sure (although it'll be weird). But you should never be just another chaotic good cleric.

It's legal. But it's certainly not in keeping with what those deities represent.

Also, while it might be technically legal to do so for a cleric, that doesn't mean it's legal for an elder mythos cultist.

Also, while it might be technically legal to do so for a cleric, that doesn't mean it's legal for an elder mythos cultist.

Excellent.

In the case of the cultist, you also get goodies like dark knowledge and the ability to drive others mad with a gaze (eventually permanently insane if they fail the save). But as the description says, you're more than a little bit mad yourself by the time you have this archetype. It's not for you if you want to be good at resisting insanity.

You know how to turn a lady's head Mr Seifter! Tell me more... ;x

But in all seriousness what happened with the WIS vs CHA?

a) If you worship GOO/OG surely you would have a rock solid Will save?! I mean the feat Dreamed Secrets is entirely dedicated to GOO/OG and involves making a good Will save.
Rather ironically, this chap will now be a rather bad choice for taking the perfect thematic feat!!

b)A GOO/OG cultist is possibly one of the least charismatic people surely?

I think HyperMissingNo's point is that worshiping a Mythos deity is about more than alignment. You can be chaotic good, sure (although it'll be weird). But you should never be just another chaotic good cleric.

It's legal. But it's certainly not in keeping with what those deities represent.

I really dont see how worshipping Lamashtu or Rovagug (core deities, both CE and into madness/monsters/destruction/nightmares/disasters) is somehow more realistic/acceptable for a cleric than worshipping say Bokrug or Xhamen-Dor?

Mark Seifter wrote:

In the case of the cultist, you also get goodies like dark knowledge and the ability to drive others mad with a gaze (eventually permanently insane if they fail the save). But as the description says, you're more than a little bit mad yourself by the time you have this archetype. It's not for you if you want to be good at resisting insanity.

You know how to turn a lady's head Mr Seifter! Tell me more... ;x

But in all seriousness what happened with the WIS vs CHA?

a) If you worship GOO/OG surely you would have a rock solid Will save?! I mean the feat Dreamed Secrets is entirely dedicated to GOO/OG and involves making a good Will save.
Rather ironically, this chap will now be a rather bad choice for taking the perfect thematic feat!!

b)A GOO/OG cultist is possibly one of the least charismatic people surely?

So I'm not by any means our office's biggest expert on the source material, but from what I've seen, these guys seem to be quite charismatic and able to convince others to join their cult, sometimes with the manipulative abilities of a sociopath. In at least some other Cthulhuesque games, I've seen rules where the cultists are already at 0 sanity to begin with, their minds are already shattered, and they have sort of formed a powerful and persuasive new psyche out of their madness that appears normal to those who never dig deeper, and that could be one way to play these guys in your horror game if you use the sanity rules (just put them at 0 sanity without the usual consequences, which would incidentally let them use abilities that damaged their own sanity freely if you did). I figured that's where this archetype was coming from when it came in for development. Though actually, if you're looking for the caster that's more of an expert in this kind of knowledge but might be good, evil, or neither and uses the knowledge in different ways, trying to avoid insanity, we have a wizard for you!

Also, while it might be technically legal to do so for a cleric, that doesn't mean it's legal for an elder mythos cultist.

Heart officially broken AND bewildered!

A mythos cultist unable to have Dreamed Secrets as a feat?!?

Nobody is saying worshiping Lamashtu or Rovagug is more realistic or acceptable. Those two clergies also don't belong in normal parties...or any party for that matter that doesn't all worship the same deity.

Let me guess... you're one of the crowd that thought Divine Protection was a reasonably balanced feat?!? ;))

Are you really equating changing the stat on one save to adding it as a flat bonus to all saves?

Mark.... just so you know, I think this must be one of the most eagerly awaited books in a long time! :)))

Eeeexcellent! :)

Kalindlara wrote:

I think HyperMissingNo's point is that worshiping a Mythos deity is about more than alignment. You can be chaotic good, sure (although it'll be weird). But you should never be just another chaotic good cleric.

It's legal. But it's certainly not in keeping with what those deities represent.

I really dont see how worshipping Lamashtu or Rovagug (core deities, both CE and into madness/monsters/destruction/nightmares/disasters) is somehow more realistic/acceptable for a cleric than worshipping say Bokrug or Xhamen-Dor?

1) You'll notice that their clerics can't be chaotic good. Would you compare a cleric of Yog-Sothoth to a cleric of Cayden Cailean?

2) What does realism or acceptability have to do with the post you responded to? I don't know what you're trying to say...

3) Honest, non-snarky question: have you ever actually read any of Lovecraft's work?

Mark Seifter wrote:

Also, while it might be technically legal to do so for a cleric, that doesn't mean it's legal for an elder mythos cultist.

Heart officially broken AND bewildered!

A mythos cultist unable to have Dreamed Secrets as a feat?!?

Rather, it's the reverse; there might be a character who is theoretically capable of taking the feat but unable to take the archetype, but that doesn't necessarily mean vice versa.

Nobody is saying worshiping Lamashtu or Rovagug is more realistic or acceptable.

I disagree... you basically are.

By saying that worshippers of GOO/OG kind of have to be NPCs or similar you are saying there is something fundamentally UN-PC able about them.

This can only be down to 2 things from a cleric perspective... alignment and beliefs.

When looking at the list of deities (many of whom have obedience/prestige class info), there is nothing that is fundamentally different.

I mean there are entire campaigns dedicated to Asmodeus! How is Mhar somehow Un-PC able?!?

Poor clerics, I do wish channel worked like it did in the playtest were it healed and harmed at the same time.

Steadfast personality adds charisma bonus to saves instead of the wisdom bonus. I wish you got the highest of two stats for saves for example Str or Con for Fort, Int or Dex for Ref, and Cha or Wis for will.

Steadfast personality adds charisma bonus to saves instead of the wisdom bonus.

Actually it doesnt....only for Will vs mind affecting effects

Are you really equating changing the stat on one save to adding it as a flat bonus to all saves?

It was more to do with the fact that it was mainly Oracle players that moaned.... which I suspected you might have been (apols if I was mistaken) xxx

For Oracles they can get CHA to almost anything!

1) You'll notice that their clerics can't be chaotic good. Would you compare a cleric of Yog-Sothoth to a cleric of Cayden Cailean?

2) What does realism or acceptability have to do with the post you responded to? I don't know what you're trying to say...

3) Honest, non-snarky question: have you ever actually read any of Lovecraft's work?

You were making a point about "what these deities represent"... I never exclusively discussed being Chaotic Good and worshipping GOO / OG

Looking at the overall GOO/OG pantheon, the following are possible (depending on deity):

CG, N, CN, LE, NE, CE... a pretty reasonable spread of that there is no doubt.

Yes its about more than alignment, but a quick look through the Paizo deity list shows that there is nothing UN-PC able about GOO/OG beliefs in comparison

Ps...Yes I have read some Lovecraft

Though actually, if you're looking for the caster that's more of an expert in this kind of knowledge but might be good, evil, or neither and uses the knowledge in different ways, trying to avoid insanity, we have a wizard for you!

Typical!.... trust the wizard to get the goodies!

...Though actually, if you're looking for the caster that's more of an expert in this kind of knowledge but might be good, evil, or neither and uses the knowledge in different ways, trying to avoid insanity, we have a wizard for you!

Umm, i think you just described a core rule book wizard.

Mark Seifter wrote:

The death clutch spell causes someone's heart to leap out into your hand

Sweet we're finally getting Clutch of Orcus reprinted into PF.

Mark Seifter wrote:

Hive is related to a new subtype of aberration created by a depraved annunaki; while normally hive larvae gestate in your body for sustenance and then kill you, a hive corrupted character has survived a rare metabolic symbiosis, gaining hive-related powers instead like a hive mind or acid blood.

Sweet we're gettin' Xenomorphs! Surprised I haven't seen more people geeking on this. Does this mean we will get monsters in this book as well including the Xenomorph and more?

Mark Seifter wrote:

...vile corruptions, where you have no control over the manifestations but can ignore the gifts to help you fight off the corruption's influence.

Care to elaborate on this more? As it stands this really doesn't make much sense. So you take a corruption, don't get any of its buffs, but get bonuses on saves against corruption?

I'm geeking over the xenomorphs!

Now my next question for Mark is...can you combine corruptions? If it's been answered somewhere I missed it.

So can I have my insectoid with a robo arm that shoots its own acid blood at people? Or something like that?

...Wait a second...Har...are you seriously calling a feat that just boosts saves more broken than a feat that lets you grab two spells from the biggest and best spell list in the game and lets you change those spell each day? Hoo boy. Buckle down everyone, this is gonna be a long post!

Unless you stick to the low levels that feat will make the cleric more disruptive than the god they worship. I mean Divine Protection was broken too, don't go twisting my words, but if you call it more broken than Dreamed Secrets then you have not seen a good wizard or sorcerer once they get 3rd level spells. On top of that, it's two spells, meaning you can grab Blood Money and Permanency once you get 6th level spells. I have seen this combo in action, the game starts to fall part when you use it effectively. I'm sure a more wizard/sorcerer savvy player can find other combos that turn the game's challenge to dust.

Side note this is more broken in the hands of an oracle than a cleric who can just spam their spells and can use Embrace Destiny beforehand to ensure that they'll make the save. Add in lesser restoration and they basically have as many tries to cast the spell as they can cast that spell...and trust me they can cast it a lot. Most of my out of combat contributions are casting that spell and fixing blood money damage with my flame oracle.

Also only Lunar and Nature oracles can get Cha to AC and reflex saves while any class can get Cha to initiative with a feat. They still can't use ranged attacks that well nor can they fly that well if they dump dex or use mounted combat in the case of a nature oracle (and trust me you want to go mounted on that one.) Not to mention you also have to deal with maximum dex bonus on armor which limits the type of armor you can get. And really if you're playing the class right you don't even need AC most of the time by level 7 with a maxed charisma score. You should be in the air and as far away from the thick of combat as your spells will reach using either the wings your mystery gives you or a magic item. Melee oracles can't get cha to damage (while clerics can get wis to damage btw) so even with this a Lunar oracle can't go hog wild on the charisma. They become a druid that can doesn't lose much AC with wild shape at the cost of only being able to use it once per day and not having a feat that lets you cast in that form. I mean there is the natural attack route but you need to be a race with claws and take a curse that gives you a bit attack to get the most out of it, and those curses have pretty hefty drawbacks. I'd rather stick to battle, metal, ancestor, or spellscar for battle oracles. Lunar's better off sticking to the back and providing support while Nature...is among the weakest of the mysteries. It has a niche of using SNA and boosting the saves of animals...but Herald Caller clerics are far better for summoning since they can do it with standard actions and get free feats. It can do mounted combat but hunters are better for that with access to fly for the mount and they already have lances. Plus teamwork feats...

I'm getting off topic, but that's what happens when I talk balance with the class I've played the most of. My point that you should be able to get is Oracles getting cha to replace dex for ac isn't as broken as it first looks. You have to look at each revelation carefully to see its true value and you have to be careful when picking them. There's a lot of them that look better or worse when given more time with them, like most options in the game.

swoosh wrote:

Are you really equating changing the stat on one save to adding it as a flat bonus to all saves?

It was more to do with the fact that it was mainly Oracle players that moaned.... which I suspected you might have been (apols if I was mistaken) xxx

For Oracles they can get CHA to almost anything!

Naw, nothing to do with Oracles and more to do with general frustration over how bad Charisma is for non-charisma based classes.

I mean you said it yourself, the archetype may very well be dead in the water purely because it uses such an inferior casting stat.

Obviously I hope it has toys to compensate for that, but the fact that you even need to compensate for it in the first place feels really lame to me.

doc the grey wrote:

Mark Seifter wrote:

The death clutch spell causes someone's heart to leap out into your hand

Sweet we're finally getting Clutch of Orcus reprinted into PF.

Mark Seifter wrote:

Hive is related to a new subtype of aberration created by a depraved annunaki; while normally hive larvae gestate in your body for sustenance and then kill you, a hive corrupted character has survived a rare metabolic symbiosis, gaining hive-related powers instead like a hive mind or acid blood.

Sweet we're gettin' Xenomorphs! Surprised I haven't seen more people geeking on this. Does this mean we will get monsters in this book as well including the Xenomorph and more?

Mark Seifter wrote:

...vile corruptions, where you have no control over the manifestations but can ignore the gifts to help you fight off the corruption's influence.

Care to elaborate on this more? As it stands this really doesn't make much sense. So you take a corruption, don't get any of its buffs, but get bonuses on saves against corruption?

I'm geeking over the xenomorphs!

Now my next question for Mark is...can you combine corruptions? If it's been answered somewhere I missed it.

So can I have my insectoid with a robo arm that shoots its own acid blood at people? Or something like that?

There's no particular reason why someone exposed to numerous catalysts wouldn't potentially become afflicted with more than one corruption, per se, though the mystically transformative where you are becoming a different sort of creature altogether might not play as nicely. But something like an accursed werevelociraptor vampire whose soul is bound to Hell, with a golem arm, infused with shadow probably doesn't conflict too much in that regard. Some of the side-effects and catalyst progression might start to become pretty tricky to deal with if you had them all, though!

But something like an accursed werevelociraptor vampire whose soul is bound to Hell, with a golem arm, infused with shadow probably doesn't conflict too much in that regard.

I know what I'm playing next campaign.

Mark Seifter wrote:

...Though actually, if you're looking for the caster that's more of an expert in this kind of knowledge but might be good, evil, or neither and uses the knowledge in different ways, trying to avoid insanity, we have a wizard for you!

Umm, i think you just described a core rule book wizard.

A more mythos-y wizard though, since that's the kind of knowledge I meant by "this kind".

Lemartes wrote:

doc the grey wrote:

Mark Seifter wrote:

The death clutch spell causes someone's heart to leap out into your hand

Sweet we're finally getting Clutch of Orcus reprinted into PF.

Mark Seifter wrote:

Hive is related to a new subtype of aberration created by a depraved annunaki; while normally hive larvae gestate in your body for sustenance and then kill you, a hive corrupted character has survived a rare metabolic symbiosis, gaining hive-related powers instead like a hive mind or acid blood.

Sweet we're gettin' Xenomorphs! Surprised I haven't seen more people geeking on this. Does this mean we will get monsters in this book as well including the Xenomorph and more?

Mark Seifter wrote:

...vile corruptions, where you have no control over the manifestations but can ignore the gifts to help you fight off the corruption's influence.

Care to elaborate on this more? As it stands this really doesn't make much sense. So you take a corruption, don't get any of its buffs, but get bonuses on saves against corruption?

I'm geeking over the xenomorphs!

Now my next question for Mark is...can you combine corruptions? If it's been answered somewhere I missed it.

So can I have my insectoid with a robo arm that shoots its own acid blood at people? Or something like that?

There's no particular reason why someone exposed to numerous catalysts wouldn't potentially become afflicted with more than one corruption, per se, though the mystically transformative where you are becoming a different sort of creature altogether might not play as nicely. But something like an accursed werevelociraptor vampire whose soul is bound to Hell, with a golem arm, infused with shadow probably doesn't conflict too much in that regard. Some of the side-effects and catalyst progression might start to become pretty tricky to deal with if you had them all, though!

Thanks Mark. :)

Will there be any examples of catalysts before the book is out?

Mark Seifter wrote:

Lemartes wrote:

doc the grey wrote:

Mark Seifter wrote:

The death clutch spell causes someone's heart to leap out into your hand

Sweet we're finally getting Clutch of Orcus reprinted into PF.

Mark Seifter wrote:

Hive is related to a new subtype of aberration created by a depraved annunaki; while normally hive larvae gestate in your body for sustenance and then kill you, a hive corrupted character has survived a rare metabolic symbiosis, gaining hive-related powers instead like a hive mind or acid blood.

Sweet we're gettin' Xenomorphs! Surprised I haven't seen more people geeking on this. Does this mean we will get monsters in this book as well including the Xenomorph and more?

Mark Seifter wrote:

...vile corruptions, where you have no control over the manifestations but can ignore the gifts to help you fight off the corruption's influence.

Care to elaborate on this more? As it stands this really doesn't make much sense. So you take a corruption, don't get any of its buffs, but get bonuses on saves against corruption?

I'm geeking over the xenomorphs!

Now my next question for Mark is...can you combine corruptions? If it's been answered somewhere I missed it.

So can I have my insectoid with a robo arm that shoots its own acid blood at people? Or something like that?

There's no particular reason why someone exposed to numerous catalysts wouldn't potentially become afflicted with more than one corruption, per se, though the mystically transformative where you are becoming a different sort of creature altogether might not play as nicely. But something like an accursed werevelociraptor vampire whose soul is bound to Hell, with a golem arm, infused with shadow probably doesn't conflict too much in that regard. Some of the side-effects and catalyst progression might start to become pretty tricky to deal with if you had them all, though!

Thanks Mark. :)

Will there be any examples of catalysts before...

I'll just give you one that's pretty guessable anyway: if a vampire feeds on you regularly, though not enough to fully create spawn, you might contract the vampirism corruption over time. Powerful curses or powerful vampires feeding you their blood might cause it sooner.

I'll just give you one that's pretty guessable anyway: if a vampire feeds on you regularly, though not enough to fully create spawn, you might contract the vampirism corruption over time. Powerful curses or powerful vampires feeding you their blood might cause it sooner.

>.>

Fair enough! :)

Last question of the night and I should have put it in the prior one.

Is there anyway of starting a pc with some of these corruptions? Building it into your backstory? Or would that cause problems?

Fair enough! :)

Last question of the night and I should have put it in the prior one.

Is there anyway of starting a pc with some of these corruptions? Building it into your backstory? Or would that cause problems?

If the GM and the players work something out for it, there's no reason why it wouldn't work from the mechanics side. You could even have everyone start with their own corruption. I mean heck, Strange Aeons book 1 product description says "The adventurers awaken within the walls of the eerie Briarstone Asylum, their minds wracked and memories missing." I'm actually not privy to the full details of the AP, but it sure sounds like, with some work together with players and GM, the PCs could start with corruptions that they don't even remember how they contracted.

Will the robo-corruption fit in well in Iron Gods?

Will the robo-corruption fit in well in Iron Gods?

Just a PC whose circumstances went beyond his control?

Will the robo-corruption fit in well in Iron Gods?

While promethean is construct-based, to be honest, the body horror of losing parts of yourself (and other related horrors from the psychological aspects) would work fine with tech as well; Tech Guide has a limit for cybernetic enhancements your mind and body can handle, so a character that goes over half their max limit (I pulled that number out of thin air, you could even say any cybernetics if you want) could well experience the promethean catalyst and require more and more cybernetics to stay alive.

Lemartes wrote:

Fair enough! :)

Last question of the night and I should have put it in the prior one.

Is there anyway of starting a pc with some of these corruptions? Building it into your backstory? Or would that cause problems?

If the GM and the players work something out for it, there's no reason why it wouldn't work from the mechanics side. You could even have everyone start with their own corruption. I mean heck, Strange Aeons book 1 product description says "The adventurers awaken within the walls of the eerie Briarstone Asylum, their minds wracked and memories missing." I'm actually not privy to the full details of the AP, but it sure sounds like, with some work together with players and GM, the PCs could start with corruptions that they don't even remember how they contracted.

Thanks Mark. Really looking forward to this book!

Starting an adventure in an asylum sounds interesting.