Naw, nothing to do with Oracles and more to do with general frustration over how bad Charisma is for non-charisma based classes.
I see what you're saying but CHA based classes eg) Oracle and Sorceror do at least get all manner of goodies and class abilities in return. Critically, the class is designed from the ground up with CHA is mind.
I mean you said it yourself, the archetype may very well be dead in the water purely because it uses such an inferior casting stat.
I fear so - but its only a prob because its a cleric. A strong Will save is a core component of the class, which as everyone knows gets little in the way of class abilities. Unlike the Oracle the Cleric is NOT designed from the ground up with CHA in mind.
Obviously I hope it has toys to compensate for that, but the fact that you even need to compensate for it in the first place feels really lame to me.
I hope so too, Mark S is an experienced Paizo dude, but I have fears:
1) The mechanics of the cleric class itself are largely designed around WIS - changing the casting stat is by default a huge issue as it will impact on many areas.
2) The part of the cleric class that is CHA based - channeling, is widely acknowledged as being definitely sub-par.... I have concerns over the flogging of dead horses!
3) With all due respect to the developers, the history of cleric archetypes (with 1 or 2 exceptions)is not one to inspire massive optimism! :((
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Is it really that horrible if the archetype takes one of the strongest and blandest classes in the game, makes it abit weaker and more flavourful?
|
Naw, nothing to do with Oracles and more to do with general frustration over how bad Charisma is for non-charisma based classes.
I see what you're saying but CHA based classes eg) Oracle and Sorceror do at least get all manner of goodies and class abilities in return. Critically, the class is designed from the ground up with CHA is mind.
I mean you said it yourself, the archetype may very well be dead in the water purely because it uses such an inferior casting stat.I fear so - but its only a prob because its a cleric. A strong Will save is a core component of the class, which as everyone knows gets little in the way of class abilities. Unlike the Oracle the Cleric is NOT designed from the ground up with CHA in mind.
Obviously I hope it has toys to compensate for that, but the fact that you even need to compensate for it in the first place feels really lame to me.I hope so too, Mark S is an experienced Paizo dude, but I have fears:
1) The mechanics of the cleric class itself are largely designed around WIS - changing the casting stat is by default a huge issue as it will impact on many areas.
2) The part of the cleric class that is CHA based - channeling, is widely acknowledged as being definitely sub-par.... I have concerns over the flogging of dead horses!
3) With all due respect to the developers, the history of cleric archetypes (with 1 or 2 exceptions)is not one to inspire massive optimism! :((
It makes sense though! The worshipers of Old Ones quickly degenerate and devolve. They don't stay the same or gain power, at least not for very long.
It makes sense though! The worshipers of Old Ones quickly degenerate and devolve. They don't stay the same or gain power, at least not for very long.
I love Mark's idea of an inbuilt insanity component to the archetype but not if it means it becomes unPC-able!
I don't agree with them 'falling apart'..... yes their afflictions will get worse but this should be counterbalanced by the powers that they wield and the fact that they become mentally toughened by continued exposure to the abyss.
The thematic gold of this is that some priests go mad early on in their service but the mentally strong rise through the ranks!!!
Worshipping GOO/OG should be no more inherently risky than worshipping demons, daemons or devils..... in the end all gods need followers...
It makes sense though! The worshipers of Old Ones quickly degenerate and devolve. They don't stay the same or gain power, at least not for very long.
I love Mark's idea of an inbuilt insanity component to the archetype but not if it means it becomes unPC-able!
I don't agree with them 'falling apart'..... yes their afflictions will get worse but this should be counterbalanced by the powers that they wield and the fact that they become mentally toughened by continued exposure to the abyss.
The thematic gold of this is that some priests go mad early on in their service but the mentally strong rise through the ranks!!!Worshipping GOO/OG should be no more inherently risky than worshipping demons, daemons or devils..... in the end all gods need followers...
I think the big difference is that GOO/OG don't really have agendas...for that matter some OG might not even be properly sentient. They may supply spells to their worshipers but care even less about them than demons or devils (who at least probably view their mortal servants as useful tools to carry out there agendas).
Personally it would take a very very very compelling backstory/idea for me to let anyone play a daemon or demon worshipper in a campaign, since I hate evil campaigns and generally enforce a "no evil" character clause for PCs in my campaign. And a lot of evil deities really don't make much sense as N PC patrons.
Is it really that horrible if the archetype takes one of the strongest and blandest classes in the game, makes it abit weaker and more flavourful?
But thats one of the huge problems with the class as is....
A cleric (or any class) archetype should offer the chance to specialise and become better in something that would be very difficult/impossible to achieve with the base class. In return certain class abilities are given up.
However... many of the cleric archetypes are actually overall worse than the base class itself. The trade offs made not balancing with what is received in return.
This thus means that nobody bothers to use them and just reverts to the same old, boring, cobweb covered cleric base class.
And you end up back at square one again....
When I did my 'Fighter Unchained' thread, I noticed that Paizo are actually actively trying to fix the class by addressing root problems. And its working well IMO.
When I did my Cleric Unchained thread, I noticed that this is not the case... root problems are not being addressed.
The classic example being channeling.... a mediocre, poor scaling, feat intensive ability.
Currently the solution seems to be more Channel Feats... which fails to address the root probs:
1) Channeling is all the above
2) Clerics are feat starved and quite MAD - thus making channeling a less viable option.
And you end up back at square one again....
Personally it would take a very very very compelling backstory/idea for me to let anyone play a daemon or demon worshipper in a campaign, since I hate evil campaigns and generally enforce a "no evil" character clause for PCs in my campaign. And a lot of evil deities really don't make much sense as N PC patrons.
But yet there are entire campaigns dedicated to Asmodeus?!?!?
And many evil deities that have full Prestige Class info?!?
Worshippers of GOO/OG can have a wide variety of alignments... in fact several of the GOO/OG are CN themselves.... James Jacobs himself said that he wanted it this way to allow for the unusual case of CG followers
However... many of the cleric archetypes are actually overall worse than the base class itself. The trade offs made not balancing with what is received in return.
And some (like me) see this as a good thing.
Instead of getting "Oh no, this archetype makes this tier 1 class slightly weaker." it should be "thank god, this archetype makes this tier 1 class slightly weaker".
Instead of getting "Oh no, this archetype makes this tier 1 class slightly weaker." it should be "thank god, this archetype makes this tier 1 class slightly weaker".
Ahhhh... you see this is a common misconception, its not about 'power' per se. I'm not talking about increasing the power of the cleric at all. Its about focus and specialisation.
You gain in some areas but you lose in others. But the trade must be balanced.
With the cleric the trade offs are often unbalanced... = no one plays them = you're stuck with the bland base class = conversations about poor cleric archetypes!!!
I've only been playing PF for about 3-4 years but its an obvious prob IMO.
Most other classes do not seem to suffer from this problem at all.... apart from Ninjas of course! :((
I'm absolutely hoping to be completely wrong and eating my hat with ketchup, but I fear exactly the same thing will happen again with the Mythos Cultist....
Contributor
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Personally it would take a very very very compelling backstory/idea for me to let anyone play a daemon or demon worshipper in a campaign, since I hate evil campaigns and generally enforce a "no evil" character clause for PCs in my campaign. And a lot of evil deities really don't make much sense as N PC patrons.But yet there are entire campaigns dedicated to Asmodeus?!?!?
And many evil deities that have full Prestige Class info?!?
Nobody ever said that they could never be worshiped by PCs, or that it was never intended to happen.
I don't know who you're arguing with, but it's not anyone in this thread.
Worshippers of GOO/OG can have a wide variety of alignments... in fact several of the GOO/OG are CN themselves.... James Jacobs himself said that he wanted it this way to allow for the unusual case of CG followers
You're twisting and misrepresenting his words, which is rather rude of you.
As you can see from the link there, he said the exact same thing we're all saying. Yes, it's legal. Yes, it can happen. But it's not normal or the general intention, and he wouldn't just let someone play one as if it were any other character - he would require justification.
You're twisting and misrepresenting his words, which is rather rude of you.
As you can see from the link there, he said the exact same thing we're all saying. Yes, it's legal. Yes, it can happen. But it's not normal or the general intention, and he wouldn't just let someone play one as if it were any other character - he would require justification.
Not really... that in itself was specific to CG alignments. I've already said that actually a wide variety of alignments are possible.
It really is no different to worshipping devils and daemons.... after all whole campaigns are dedicated to Asmodeus!
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
To be fair, Tammy isn't in it for Asmodeus, she just wants power.
She also wants a belt made out of a Paladin's entrails.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
RE: Cleric and archetypes. Probably best to start a new thread on this since its pretty off topic. I will conclude my own thoughts here is that, most of the "issues" with Clerics is that it has an overall boring chassis, like Wizard, which makes cool and equally powerful archetypes difficult to come up with. Not many people care however because Clerics and Wizards are already so powerful that even an inferior archetype is still likely to be very playable in most parties. The fighter situation is completely different (See the 50 bazillion threads on that subject). Again my last words on the subject here.
RE: Gods and clerics. Remember that hardcover rulebooks (or the books in general) are not just for people with PCs. Many options (especially in something like Horror Adventures) are also present to give GM's the ability to craft unique and flavorful enemies and NPCs for the PCs to play against. Not every option is put forward with the expectation that players will use it. Yes, you can go ahead and be a CG priest of Azathoth, a CN priest of Rovagug or a true N priest of Szuriel, but realize that you are likely the only worshipper in existence of that alignment, regular people will probably not trust you, other worshippers of that god will try to kill you, you have increased risk of losing your abilities by violating your gods credo, and you probably won't have a nice fate in the afterlife.
Fair enough...we are thread de-railing slightly x
Back on topic.... looking forward to seeing the CoC style investigators... 'Cult Hunters' and the Alchemist archetype... very apt. :))
Tick tock... tick tock.... 3 of us from work are prob gonna chip in together for the hardbook
Hopefully at least one template in this book will turn animals into aberrant Lovecraftian horrors.
Hopefully at least one template in this book will turn animals into aberrant Lovecraftian horrors.
That'd be cool.
Even if not, Mark did say that animals could be affected by corruptions, so animals with a Deep One corruption can most likely come close, at least from what I'm guessing of what they are.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
It makes sense though! The worshipers of Old Ones quickly degenerate and devolve. They don't stay the same or gain power, at least not for very long.
I love Mark's idea of an inbuilt insanity component to the archetype but not if it means it becomes unPC-able!
{. . .}
I just have to mention that Great Old Ones and Outer Gods are unlikely to care much about Political Correctness . . . .
It makes sense though! The worshipers of Old Ones quickly degenerate and devolve. They don't stay the same or gain power, at least not for very long.
I love Mark's idea of an inbuilt insanity component to the archetype but not if it means it becomes unPC-able!
{. . .}I just have to mention that Great Old Ones and Outer Gods are unlikely to care much about Political Correctness . . . .
Yeah, H.P. himself was not entirely big on it either.
|
|
| 5 people marked this as a favorite. |
It's usually because the horrors in those stories go so far beyond what is comprehensible (their entire point) that there is no apex above it.
That being said the type of horror it is, Cosmic Horror, is its own thing.
You can still have Gothic, Hammer, and Slasher Horror either apart of it or running up aside it or leading to it.
The thing about Lovecraft's horrors is that they are the best high CR enemies.
Sure, slashers, curses, body horror, monsters from every culture -- they are great spoopy elements. But an incomprehensible horror from beyond time makes for the best type of boss battle.
So you'll see a lot of games having eldritch horrors as the big baddies.
Sometimes Paizo seems to think all one needs to do to be "anti-mage" is "boy, you're going to hate this +4 to casting defensively DC if you obligingly within melee reach of me when you cast and don't use quickened spells, buddy!"
QFT
Anyone have a guide to what not manifested elemental whispers familiars can do? Can they see through the kineticist eyes and make knowledge checks?