Announcing the Starfinder Roleplaying Game!

Want Mutants? Their called Orcs.

Then I need me some orcs with radiation blast, total carapace, and poor dual brain.

Considering that I'm nearing the end of a long, mythic storyline involving the PCs taking on a dragon-god that's terrorized my campaign setting for more than 15 years (real time) now, I'm already having visions of flashing forward to a future where said dragon-god has been resurrected as a cyborg and formed an alliance with a sentient planet.

My players who have just stepped through their first elf-gate to another world are going to be incredibly excited for this book. August next year can't come fast enough.

There will be Espers?

Reading about Absalon Station I can't avoid to feel a Mass Effect like vibe, which is great

Isn't Esper just another name for psychics?

Isn't Esper just another name for psychics?

More like Psionics really, I know Psychics and Psionics looks like the same but they are not.

A lot of people feels that psionics from 3.5 were like too much sci fi if that makes any sense and at some degree I agree, so they will be perfect for Starfinder.

I doubt very highly a second adaptation from 3.5 psionics given there is Dreamscarred version, so that is why I used the term Esper

Dragon78 wrote:

Isn't Esper just another name for psychics?

More like Psionics really, I know Psychics and Psionics looks like the same but they are not.

A lot of people feels that psionics from 3.5 were like too much sci fi if that makes any sense and at some degree I agree, so they will be perfect for Starfinder.

I doubt very highly a second adaptation from 3.5 psionics given there is Dreamscarred version, so that is why I used the term Esper

Psionics from Dreamscarred Press is one of the main reasons why I'm hoping that the backwards compatibility thing really works. Psionics is perfect for Starfinder and I know I've seen plenty of comments praising Occult Adventures for being 'Psionic' without it being all scifi.

I'm interested in this overall. I was a fan of Star Trek (particularly TNG and DS9) and Babylon 5 before getting into D & D so this is an interesting idea. One thing I am curious about is the core races for this and thus far for me personally, I'm excited about Androids and Lashuntas, but the Ratfolk are just not a race I have ever been overly enthused about. They're in so that's fine but I don't think I'll ever make a Ratfolk character. In science fiction and video games and other places, there have been cat like aliens so hopefully Catfolk will get in, maybe not as a core race although I would be happy about that, but some where in the setting as a heroic race (maybe have a faction or variant of the race going the Kzinti route but hopefully if Catfolk do get in to StarFinder they will be a heroic race by and large and regarded in setting as a generally heroic race like Lashuntas or Androids or Humans will likely be). Reptilian aliens have also been present in SF and video games, etc. so Nagaji, Kobolds, Wyvarans (a real stretch on that one, but just putting it out there as a possibility) and possibly Reptoids from Bestiary 5 as well. Kasathas would be too powerful for a core race probably but if they could be a core race I would be quite happy.

Also based on this quote:

Creative Director[/i] wrote:]So how does all this science fantasy goodness fit into the Pathfinder setting? Simple: Starfinder is set in Golarion's solar system, but far in a possible future—one in which the gods have mysteriously spirited Golarion away to an unknown location, and refuse to answer questions about it. In its place, the cultures of that world have evolved and spread throughout the solar system, especially to a vast space platform called Absalom Station. Gifted access to a hyperspace dimension by an ascended AI deity, the residents of the system suddenly find themselves with the ability to travel faster than light, and the race is on to explore and colonize potentially millions of worlds. But there are horrors out there in the darkness...

I wonder if this actually means that the races of the OTHER planets (Castrovel, Akiton, Verces, Triaxus, etc.) in Golarions solar system have evolved and spread throughout the solar system, which could get elves into the setting more fully as the elves had substantial populations on both Castrovel and Golarion. Then again this could just be an attempt to make sense of that paragraph and the meaning will be made clear in time.

I hope it's summer on Triaxus. :-)

Odraude wrote:

Honestly, I hope they don't go the route of magic = technology. It just feels like a cop out. I'd rather they be two separate forces that can be combined for interesting effects. What I don't want are lasers that are just wands of fireballs reskinned.

See, NOW that we have an actual sci-fi setting, they can officially use psionics and have it be the magic system du jour. ;)

It's science fantasy, not science fiction, and while technically anything with psionics could be viewed as science fantasy, I'd rather still have proper magic.

And, of course, chances are pretty good that Dreamscarred Press' version will still be applicable, and I'd bet that even if some conversion is required, they'll probably release a conversion handbook - if not more - for Starfinder.

I hope it's summer on Triaxus. :-)

Not if Snow Miser has anything to say about it.

Triaxian Ned Stark: "Never forget, Freehold is coming."
Triaxian Stark Children: {shiver in terror}

It's science fantasy, not science fiction, and while technically anything with psionics could be viewed as science fantasy, I'd rather still have proper magic.

You might find Isaac Bonewits' Authentic Thaumaturgy interesting.

captain yesterday wrote:

I hope it's summer on Triaxus. :-)

Not if Snow Miser has anything to say about it.

Triaxian Ned Stark: "Never forget, Freehold is coming."
Triaxian Stark Children: {shiver in terror}

At least it's summer on Golarion. Probably.

Luthorne wrote:

It's science fantasy, not science fiction, and while technically anything with psionics could be viewed as science fantasy, I'd rather still have proper magic.

You might find Isaac Bonewits' Authentic Thaumaturgy interesting.

I think I looked at it a bit awhile back...it was...uh...interesting, yeah. Nothing terribly new, though. Both in the real world and in science fiction, psionics is often just magic stripped of the superstitious and unnecessary trappings its practitioners had convinced themselves were necessary to use supernatural powers, whether ones hypothetically in common to all humanity or those who were special in some regard. Though there was essentially another genre where it truly was new, something humanity had evolved recently, or acquired from some alien source or genetic manipulation or all three.

Of course, psionics or psychic abilities or whatever are often something entirely different in a fantasy setting when compared to magic. Valdemar and The War God's Own spring to mind first, there. Though with urban fantasy, sometimes it's the reverse of the usual science fiction portrayal...where humans have forgotten magic for the most part, and believe its practitioners (or sometimes, magical creatures posing as humans) to be psychic, because they're willing to accept the possibility of psionics, while magic is clearly impossible. A concept many underground mages or elves or what have you generally find fairly amusing.

Anyways, yeah, I'm all for the evolution of magic, I'd just rather it still feel magical and wondrous to some extent, and, well, preferably not be point-based. Gonna be honest, never really looked at Pathfinder and wanted even more math to deal with. No offense to those who prefer such systems.

Magic/Tech fusion as a kind of advanced alchemy sounds good to me. But maybe not everyone I know. I am still in a state of cautious optimism right now as this is something that I love and get excited about all too easily.

Androfan, here we come!

GREETINGS BATTLE-BROTHERS

I AM CAPTAIN GLUTEUS MAXIMUS, RIGHTEOUS PALADIN OF OUR GOD-EMPEROR AND HIS BELOVED SISTER IOMEDAE OF THE PURGING FIRE. CHECK OUT MY MAD SWAG. I HAVE A NICE PLASMA FALCHION AND A SWEET SUIT OF CELESTIAL POWER ARMOUR. I LOOK TERRIFIC

I HAVE MANY HOBBIES, CITIZEN. THEY INCLUDE SUCH DIVERSE INTERESTS AS SMITING XENO SCUM, SMITING DEMONS AND SMITING BORG WHICH PROBABLY COUNT AS UNDEAD

FOR THE EMPEROR!

Honestly, I hope they don't go the route of magic = technology. It just feels like a cop out. I'd rather they be two separate forces that can be combined for interesting effects. What I don't want are lasers that are just wands of fireballs reskinned.

Lasers will not just be wands of fireball, reskinned.

You mean I can't be the barbaric guy who tear the doors appart when the power is out? That plain old metal survival knives are things of the past? etc?

I am sure there are still plain old metal survival knives. Indeed, survival knives are a place having a device not dependent on either magic energy or high-tech power cells makes a lot of sense.

But the setting will have a lot of advanced technology, and magic is still a major source of power. I strongly suspect a that character attempts to get along without either will be at a significant disadvantage.

More than 1000 posts in less than 48 hours. You Paizo people do know how to raise a ruckus ;-)

More than 1000 posts in less than 48 hours. You Paizo people do know how to raise a ruckus ;-)

I mean, when you announce something so incredibly awesome as a science fantasy setting...

Am I the only one who gets the feeling that visits to Kasath and Androffa may be on the horizon? Maybe even our own solar system. It's already been shown to exist in the Pathfinder universe.

Also, we may finally find out what really lies in Apostae's core.

Am I the only one who gets the feeling that visits to Kasath and Androffa may be on the horizon? Maybe even our own solar system. It's already been shown to exist in the Pathfinder universe.

Also, we may finally find out what really lies in Apostae's core.

I guess that depends on the limits of hyperspace travel...I believe they've already said that Androffa and Earth are in separate galaxies from Golarion...we don't even know if they're within the observable universe of each other. That said, it's clearly possible to make such travels with magic, at least, so...who knows? I'm inclined to doubt it, though...one galaxy is more than big enough.

I keep looking for a subscription to starfinder button... going to be a long 15 months...

Hopefully in the thousands of years since the present, some Wizard has been smart enough to come up with a magic system less stupid than Vancian.

Honestly I prefer Vancian magic.

So do I, though I am very fond of at will spell like and supernatural powers.

I've always disliked it. And when I say it's stupid, I don't mean "Yeah it was a dumb idea", I mean it's stupid in universe.

Any given spell is by default cast at absolute max power, and requires the same amount of energy or preparation whether it is or is not. A CL 10 Wizard uses the same amount of resources as a CL 5 Wizard when casting a CL 5 Fireball...would he not have better control over that, given the vast gulf in experience between the two?

You'd think SOMEONE across the millenia would fiddle around and try to fix that...but no. Nobody has succeeded (nor, is it indicated, even TRIED).

Likewise, why would the most powerful beings on the planet tether themselves to a physical object of all things? Spell Mastery (and to a greater extent, Divine magic) shows that prepared magic doesn't need spellbooks, they're just a crutch that for some reason have stuck around forever because the super duper smart Wizards look around at literally every other type of caster and go "Well, I can create my own universe and fill it with life forms of my own creation...but doing away with the spellbook is IMPOSSIBLE!"

As amusing as it would be to see a Wizard carry around a laptop to execute all his spells in the future (ala an excellent book series whose title always escapes me. No, it's not the one with the kids, it's Greek fantasy based), you'd think there'd be a more efficient way on both accounts in a universe where magic powered FTL travel exists.

Besides which, what's the point of making a different game system if you don't change some things?

I would hope Starfinder learns from some of the mistakes Pathfinder has made and tries to correct them. The wonky Combat Maneuver rules, over-reliance on gear, outmoded spell systems, and so on.

While I do hope to see some mistakes corrected in Starfinder (I'm looking at you Touch AC), I don't think we can expect too many drastic changes given that Starfinder is meant to be backwards compatible with Pathfinder.

To me, as long as things can be converted, it's backwards compatible. 3.5 and PF are technically backwards compatible, but some major changes were made (for better or worse).

They could have gone a lot further IMO and still retained backwards compatibility.

A 10th-level wizard does have better control. He's more likely to be able to penetrate spell resistance, his fireball does more damage, his fireball goes farther, he can more easily cast it while distracted, and he can also apply metamagic to it that a 5th-level wizard can't.

Also, apparently spell mastery is tricky since it's a feat, and it seems to have some pretty severe limitations. So, yes, it's a crutch, presumably due to the limitation of human minds to remember all the details involved in casting spells. Remember that just writing the spell into your spellbook requires an hour per spell level (or half an hour for a cantrip), and that it takes up a page per spell level. This seems to pretty heavily imply that the way wizards do magic is obscenely complicated if some of the most intelligent people on the material plane still take a huge amount of time and need a ridiculously large number of notes to be able to cast a spell. One rather suspects that magic used to be even more unwieldy for such casters before they figured out the trick of casting most of the spell and leaving it to be finished as (usually) a standard action.

Divine prepared casters I don't think are a fair comparison, considering that they allow other forces to shape their magic.

Not that I'm personally wedded to Gygaxian casting (there are plenty of other magic systems I prefer, though personally psionics isn't one of them), but I don't think some of your arguments hold water given the actual mechanics.

A 10th-level wizard does have better control. He's more likely to be able to penetrate spell resistance, his fireball does more damage, his fireball goes farther, he can more easily cast it while distracted

All of which points to MORE POWER (*Insert Tim Allen here*), not more control.

If I told you I built a flamethrower that could burn through an inch of steel and shoot up to 30 feet, and then I told you I built one that could melt a foot thick steel block and shoot up to half a mile, would your first thought be "Oh, it's better controlled"?

and he can also apply metamagic to it that a 5th-level wizard can't.

Potentially true...but then again, not. It's still basically brute forcing the spell to do something it wasn't supposed to do. It expends a lot more of your resources than the spell already does.

Also, apparently spell mastery is tricky since it's a feat, and it seems to have some pretty severe limitations. So, yes, it's a crutch, presumably due to the limitation of human minds to remember all the details involved in casting spells. Remember that just writing the spell into your spellbook requires an hour per spell level (or half an hour for a cantrip), and that it takes up a page per spell level. This seems to pretty heavily imply that the way wizards do magic is obscenely complicated if some of the most intelligent people on the material plane still take a huge amount of time and need a ridiculously large number of notes to be able to cast a spell. One rather suspects that magic used to be even more unwieldy for such casters before they figured out the trick of casting most of the spell and leaving it to be finished as (usually) a standard action.

You would think so, but the ancient casters such as the Azlanti used the same system...and were better at it. So the system has been in use for all of recorded history, and has REGRESSED rather than PROGRESSED.

Divine prepared casters I don't think are a fair comparison, considering that they allow other forces to shape their magic.

Do they though? They receive the raw power from the gods, rather than study or in-born talent, but they cast exactly the same as Wizards do. Gestures, words, materials, and poof things happen. The only difference is power source, everything else works exactly the same.

I've just find it troublesome as soon as I had Spheres of Power as an adequate replacement. I made a whole rage-filled review about it. I just feel like it's one of the things that creates most of the problems in Pathfinder. I'm to the point where I barely use Paizo spellcasters anymore.

Besides that its used as a template for too many things so I don't want technomancy or whatever just being vancian the way that Alchemist is basically a kool-aide wizard. And as I said before, because of how vancian magic works it eats up so much space. It eats up a third of the core rulebook and still doesn't do what I really want to do until we get to more and more books, and then I have to hunt down spells, which most are trap options, through books of spells and sort out what they do and who can do them. and the whole concept of spell lists and whenever a new class comes out that needs its own spell list but you have to sort out for yourself if it even gets the spell if the spell is third party, and then theres the lack of at-will magic that's actually useful and so on.

No. I am not into vancian casting for this.

Yes, I would say that it's better controlled, since otherwise the fire wouldn't be able to travel that far without dissipating. With more power, it would be more likely to spread out, so it seems likely that very tight control is being used to allow the increased temperatures and distance.

Ultimately, though, I guess it's a question of how you interpret caster level. To me, caster level has always meant increased proficiency and control, allowing a caster to tweak the same spell to get a higher performance out of it, weave around magical protections such as spell resistance to penetrate them, and needing to more easily concentrate on such a spell. I can kind of see you interpreting caster level as raw power, though I don't think it really makes sense for you to be more easily able to concentrate on something that's using more power.

Why do you think the Azlanti were better at it, though? From my perspective, they simply had more resources and more government approval for funding to build up a magical infrastructure...Nex also appears to have quite a lot of impressive magic, and also seem to dedicate a fair bit of their resources, though I doubt they're as big or have as many resources as Azlant did.

As for divine casters, I think James Jacobs has said that the magical power comes from the cleric, and my interpretation has been that clerics have their own magical power shaped into spells for them, which they then unleash using verbal, somatic, and material components, though presumably with less effort since armor doesn't seem to interfere with it. Of course, these elements can be excluded, but it seems to be so difficult (three feats, +2 spell level) that it's probably not worth the extra effort.

A Psyker in Grey Knight's Terminator-like armour...hot damn! Hope that's possible.

J. Sutter, this seems really extreme...

I'm sure there was some other way to finally being able to win the Mengkare argument... :D

As amusing as it would be to see a Wizard carry around a laptop to execute all his spells in the future (ala an excellent book series whose title always escapes me. No, it's not the one with the kids, it's Greek fantasy based)

WebMage (and its sequels), by Kelly McCullough. I own the set. XD

(Context for everyone else: In that series, magic falls into three major categories, only two of which are used on any regular basis. The preferred form of magic is programmed magic, in which familiars are actually the ones casting spells, and do so by using tamed primal energy that's available to them through what's basically the magical internet. Raw chaos is dangerous stuff, but the "servers" process it and make it available for others to use. The other somewhat-common power is pure chaos magic, where you just kind of do it without any of the safeguards, and which most of the characters can do because they all have a connection by blood to primal chaos, being descendants of the chaos-formed Titans. Chaos magic is noted as not being even slightly safe, although actual chaos powers (such as Eris, Goddess of Discord) have an advantage when using it and more control over what can be done. It does match relatively well to the Prepared/Spontaneous dynamic. Ritual-based casting was noted to be a thing, but largely avoided now because using computers was faster, easier, safer, and generally just better.)

I've just find it troublesome as soon as I had Spheres of Power as an adequate replacement. I made a whole rage-filled review about it. I just feel like it's one of the things that creates most of the problems in Pathfinder. I'm to the point where I barely use Paizo spellcasters anymore.

Besides that its used as a template for too many things so I don't want technomancy or whatever just being vancian the way that Alchemist is basically a kool-aide wizard. And as I said before, because of how vancian magic works it eats up so much space. It eats up a third of the core rulebook and still doesn't do what I really want to do until we get to more and more books, and then I have to hunt down spells, which most are trap options, through books of spells and sort out what they do and who can do them. and the whole concept of spell lists and whenever a new class comes out that needs its own spell list but you have to sort out for yourself if it even gets the spell if the spell is third party, and then theres the lack of at-will magic that's actually useful and so on.

No. I am not into vancian casting for this.

Realistically, though, we're probably getting Gygaxian casting regardless. I expect some tweaks and possibly some radical alterations to the normal spell lists, especially since they've said they're doing all-new classes and there will be new hazards and circumstances spells should have evolved to deal with, such as interacting with electronics, dealing with radiation and hard vacuum, doing things that technology doesn't handle with less expense and effort, and so on and so forth.

Not that that will stop me from implementing Spheres of Power, especially since I think it does a great job of modeling psychic stuff, as well as probably Ethermagic, since the flavor seems to fit perfectly, and likely Akashic Mysteries (perhaps reflavored somewhat, but I think creating magical constructs and being able to swap focus around has a good feel for science fantasy) and Grimoire of Lost Souls (for a truly ancient form of magic lurking around the edges of the galaxy).

Well, I am curious to see what they do and how much work it will take to adapt things to the mechanics.

Sundakan wrote:

As amusing as it would be to see a Wizard carry around a laptop to execute all his spells in the future (ala an excellent book series whose title always escapes me. No, it's not the one with the kids, it's Greek fantasy based)

WebMage (and its sequels), by Kelly McCullough. I own the set. XD

That's the one!

I never did finish it, but always wanted to.

and likely Akashic Mysteries (perhaps reflavored somewhat, but I think creating magical constructs and being able to swap focus around has a good feel for science fantasy)

If you do want it reflavoured abit, check out Arcforge. Sslarn has rules and guidelines to help people convert from the normal flavour of veilweaving to technology based stuff.

Awesome, now make Trailfinder and move the gunslinger to its own pocket universe.

that's what spellslinger was for.

Liked that game.

Luthorne wrote:

and likely Akashic Mysteries (perhaps reflavored somewhat, but I think creating magical constructs and being able to swap focus around has a good feel for science fantasy)

If you do want it reflavoured abit, check out Arcforge. Sslarn has rules and guidelines to help people convert from the normal flavour of veilweaving to technology based stuff.

Yeah, I'm aware, will be somewhat interested in the final product, even though I'm not terribly interested in most psionics (the soulknife being an exception), and I'm fine with akashic magic being a form of magic for a science fantasy setting myself, though technology-induced magic is certainly an intriguing concept...though certainly far from new, with Mass Effect being one of the more recent versions, though Akashic Mysteries is considerably more fun than biotics.

The first thought that came to me when I saw this is "Now we're adding Spelljammer to the PF multiverse."

Now I liked Spelljammer and played and DM'ed a lot of it but it didn't mesh well with the "normal settings" because adding it in drastically changes a campaign's direction.

So I'm glad to see that this is being introduced as a separate entity and not just yet another campaign setting / companion book (which in my opinion is getting quite old - but that is something for another day)

I guess my hesitation with getting on board with it when it comes out is the same problem I have with the core PF - the endless adder books and no pdf subscription. I mean how many character classes and archetypes and feats (especially feats) and traits (ditto) do we really need? I would much rather see all that energy put into good, original adventures with tie-ins to world/location development.

I know what Lisa said, but I'm worried this will cause a slip in original PF quality, much like the ACG when the team was distracted with PF Online. That ended up a debacle IMHO. Hopefully they have learned from that and will be fine. I'm definitely worried, though.

I can tell you that there was not a single editorial team resource that got distracted by Pathfinder Online. There was maybe a once every two weeks 1 hour approval meeting. That is that. Pathfinder Online had next to zero impact on the Paizo editorial team.

-Lisa

Chris Marsh wrote:

Nightterror wrote:

The beginning of the end. Next big bestiary will feature only monsters for this. Bye myth monsters you were great and will be missed.

Lisa Stevens has specifically said this is not going to be the case. She made sure the game we know will not suffer.

I have no doubt this will be true if Starfinder underperformed or tanks. But if it succeeds at some point the marginal value of time and product investments will shift and these initial plans will be abandoned for wherever the future market is.

If Starfinder blows up in a good way and there is demand for a lot more product than we are planning, then there will be a lot more employees hired to make that product. I repeat once again, Starfinder will NOT take away resources from Pathfinder. Pathfinder is the goose that laid the golden egg. I will not be risking that goose ever.

-Lisa

PF Online failed for completely different reasons and there were actually enough loud people around to cheer that up.

Sadly the majority of people, who tends to be rather casual most likely, and investors thought different. Current trends in online games proof them. The MMO PVP just wasn´t the right thing there it seems.

I don't want to hijack this thread, but Pathfinder Online hasn't been successful to date because it isn't a finished game. It didn't have the funding that it needed to make the game envisioned. That will be changing very soon. You can't judge the success of a game that hasn't been completed because there isn't a lot of people wanting to play the game during its development stages. We shall see what happens in two years once a new company takes over with many millions of dollars of investment and nearly 4 times the staff that Goblinworks had.

Anyway, I don't want to discuss this here, but needed to correct this.

-Lisa

Auntie Lisa!

Slithery D wrote:

Chris Marsh wrote:

Nightterror wrote:

The beginning of the end. Next big bestiary will feature only monsters for this. Bye myth monsters you were great and will be missed.

Lisa Stevens has specifically said this is not going to be the case. She made sure the game we know will not suffer.

I have no doubt this will be true if Starfinder underperformed or tanks. But if it succeeds at some point the marginal value of time and product investments will shift and these initial plans will be abandoned for wherever the future market is.

If Starfinder blows up in a good way and there is demand for a lot more product than we are planning, then there will be a lot more employees hired to make that product. I repeat once again, Starfinder will NOT take away resources from Pathfinder. Pathfinder is the goose that laid the golden egg. I will not be risking that goose ever.

-Lisa

Not even in exchange for being able to write and direct Star Wars VIII and IX?

Spelljammer and Dragonstar were wonderful. I see starfinder as potentially the next step in the evolution of science fantasy space opera gaming. And to add my 2cp on Spheres of Power I love it, I was a backer for it and in my home brew games it replaces the traditional magic system.

Removed a post.

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