Ultimate Intrigue—Vigilante Playtest!

It's a shame no vigilante can fight like Batman.

Also here's hoping they do a v2 playtest since we're running low on time.

A V2 playtest would be most welcome.

I'm going to test Vigilante in PFS-game, so can Identities have different Factions? If not, must leader of the Faction know who you really are?

bump

RobertSh wrote:

I'm going to test Vigilante in PFS-game, so can Identities have different Factions? If not, must leader of the Faction know who you really are?

bump

I'd really like to know the answer to this as well.

We're playing it that your secret identity is part of the PFS game, but your day job person is actually your "agent" or "representative" (the VC's are clueless about your true identity unless you purposely tell them because we think of them as Commissioner Gordon). They're the ones that go in to visit the VC, and IF the adventure is something that their vigilante can do (99.9% of the time they would), then they go get the other person, which takes 5 minutes. We've also played around with the idea that we're a Justice League team so the VC's have a "bat signal" to alert us when danger is present. We're really cheesing it up and having fun with it.

I too would like to see a v2 playtest just to keep going since there's no sheet out yet.

We've done two sessions so far, with a third coming up in a week's time. We've done a level 1 and level 4. The next will be level 7. So far we're seeing huge gaps in power. We've got at least one of each specialization. Two of us are avengers (two-weapon style, and two-handed style). We're kind of wishing there was a fifth specialization that did the support aspect like the bard, inquisitor, and cavalier. Have some teamwork feats and inspirational motivations. As we pointed out, every team needs their boy scout or Tuxedo Mask with pretty speeches that give you the power to stand up for one last strike.
We weren't all that surprised at the level 4 mark when the warlock took charge, and we just sat back and watched him take out the opponents. Being able to do his best spell seven times just had us sitting back and watching. That said, the GM did point out that had his spell been something that could have easily been resisted, or was even immune to, then he would have been useless instead. He just happened to pick well. The stalker, was pretty useless. Having a mere d4 sneak attack does not cut it. Yeah you get d6 if they're unaware of us, but good luck with that. The zealot did well with his few spells, but we all agreed that getting 2d6 is pretty stupid. Have it be 1d6 at an earlier level. It's not all that useful, but at least it's there. You want to make it like the paladin's lay on hands, and then make it a channel later, that's fine. Just give the zealot something a bit more bang for their buck. The avengers are just weaker fighters. There's not much else to say about them. We're both waiting for the level 7 character so we can finally get the Vital Punishment. It's like the only good ability. We both can't stand the idea that there's a version of Reckless Charge that gives you -6 to your AC so you can pounce. Against a large or huge creature that has reach? How about I just ask for the resurrection now and save us all the trouble? The -4 is plenty. And it's not like it's to offset the Close the Gap talent because there's nothing specified in it other than you don't get the -2 for a regular charge. They can be used together, or can't, make sure it's noted.

Question regarding "Living Shield" Talent: Do grapple penalties to AC apply if the grapple fails?

Question regarding Warlock vigilante spell list, is it just the list from the Core rulebook or does it include sorcerer/wizard spells from other (PFS legal) source?

Hang on - the last sentence of the blogpost says "See you on the boards", but Jason and the PDT have been quite...quiet. This doesn't bode well for a Version 2 to be playtested, despite all of the criticism and critical feedback that has arisen.

Hang on - the last sentence of the blogpost says "See you on the boards", but Jason and the PDT have been quite...quiet. This doesn't bode well for a Version 2 to be playtested, despite all of the criticism and critical feedback that has arisen.

Hopefully they are all too busy cranking out a new version for us to playtest to be responding to forum posts.

I wouldn't hold my breath, though

I'm still waiting for the chronicle sheet, nevermind round 2.

It's a shame no vigilante can fight like Batman.

Also here's hoping they do a v2 playtest since we're running low on time.

That is because they split Avenger and Stalker. Batman is Gestalt Avenger/Stalker. He has hidden strike with full bab.

Insain Dragoon wrote:

It's a shame no vigilante can fight like Batman.

Also here's hoping they do a v2 playtest since we're running low on time.

That is because they split Avenger and Stalker. Batman is Gestalt Avenger/Stalker. He has hidden strike with full bab.

I still think the best way to make him is as a Slayer with the Irori combat style, Enforcer, Dazzling Display, and Sap Adept/Master. Even with the vigilante playtest.

The summoner, either unchained or standard, gets to cast arcane spells in light armor. I would allow the Warlock to have this same ability. Their spell progression and BAB is the same for either class.

Summoner gets an a lot more abilities in my opinion even after giving them that. For example, their summon monster ability and duration n minutes. Plus their Eidolon and the abilities given to it surpasses a talent every even level in my opinion. Talents are nice, but only a few are powerful. I don't see the problem of using a feat to get an extra talent.

Its not that powerful a class...

Amanda Plageman wrote:

RobertSh wrote:

I'm going to test Vigilante in PFS-game, so can Identities have different Factions? If not, must leader of the Faction know who you really are?

bump

I'd really like to know the answer to this as well.

We're playing it that your secret identity is part of the PFS game, but your day job person is actually your "agent" or "representative" (the VC's are clueless about your true identity unless you purposely tell them because we think of them as Commissioner Gordon). They're the ones that go in to visit the VC, and IF the adventure is something that their vigilante can do (99.9% of the time they would), then they go get the other person, which takes 5 minutes. We've also played around with the idea that we're a Justice League team so the VC's have a "bat signal" to alert us when danger is present. We're really cheesing it up and having fun with it.

I'm handling this with a dip into ranger (falconer) so my owl will hang out at the lodge when I'm in my social disguise. If there's trouble they can send the owl to come find me.

Snowblind wrote:

Wicked Woodpecker of the West wrote:

Wouldn't it be easier to make 4 different vigilante classes rather than one with totally different subclasses...

You would think so, but Paizo has already committed themselves to there be one and only one vigilante class, so we are stuck with it.

Ick. I'm not sure that the Vigilante needs to be divided into 4 classes. However, I hope that they're not completely committed with the route that they are currently following. I don't want to dredge up bad stuff, but I have to point out that the last time Paizo was too committed with their chosen direction on something to make the big changes that the feedback was telling them they needed to make was with Mythic Adventures.

It could be argued every Playtest, really.

Having looked at the Vigilante class, it seems to me that it lacks something special, the gimmick that defines the class (like Magus's Spell Strike and spell combat, warpriests fervour, barbarians rage, etc.). Don't know what it could be, but it seems to me that the whole class is about striking from the shadows, so perhaps a nice bonus against any opponent that is flatfooted? This would encourage ambushes from the shadows, and perhaps other talents could enhance that.

Earlier ssttarting Vegence strike, that is limited and scales as you level would be good.
It would give each specializattion a oomph to sttarrt a fight and as I see nothing stating it can't be done in battle.. could give folks who sneak around extra oomph for ducking in and out of stealth.
Allowing every class to do it earlier would provide some neat scaling oomph.
I would love as a warlock to study before a fight, then throw a bolt. or cast a hidden nonlethal spell and have a higher chance of knocking the guy out.

Just limit the studable rounds by some vigilante factor. and at lv 20 add some extra bonus to it. Either allowing 2 out of the 3 choices per 1 round or bump the factors up

Having looked at the Vigilante class, it seems to me that it lacks something special, the gimmick that defines the class (like Magus's Spell Strike and spell combat, warpriests fervour, barbarians rage, etc.). Don't know what it could be, but it seems to me that the whole class is about striking from the shadows, so perhaps a nice bonus against any opponent that is flatfooted? This would encourage ambushes from the shadows, and perhaps other talents could enhance that.

I've been saying that it should be the capstone, vengeance strike. Something like this:

At 1st level, a vigilante can spend a standard action to study a target that is unaware of him (or does not see him as a threat). After studying a target, the vigilante can, in the next round, declare the he is making a vengeance strike against the target as an attack action. When making a vengeance strike, the vigilante can gain a +4 circumstance bonus on his vengeance strike's attack roll, add +3d6 points of precision damage to his vengeance strike's damage roll, or treat his vengeance strike's die roll as if it were 2 higher for the purpose of determining if the attack hit or if it threatens a critical hit (maximum 20).

At 5th level and every 5 levels thereafter, a vigilante can continue to spend 1 additional standard action studying a target, up to a maximum of 5 standard actions at 20th level. Each round of study can be spent in a different way, but each round of study must be allocated before the attack roll is made. A vengeance strike must be declared within 1 round of studying a target and all rounds of study are expended when the vigilante declares a vengeance strike.

As a bonus, here are some ideas for universal vigilante talents to go along with this mechanic:

Flexible Vengeance (Ex): A vigilante who selects this talent can declare his vengeance strike as part of an attack action or a full attack action. When making a vengeance strike as a full attack action, the vigilante can apply all of his rounds of study on a single attack or split them between multiple attacks, if he is able to make multiple attacks during a full attack. All attacks that the vigilante applies his vengeance strike to must be applied against a target that he studied with his vengeance strike ability. The vigilante must have a base attack bonus of at least +6 in order to select this talent.

Wide Study: When a vigilante with this talent uses his vengeance strike ability to study a target, he can choose to study an area of potential opponents instead of a single individual. When using this ability, the vigilante can study an area of up to 10 feet per vigilante level he possesses, allowing him to apply his rounds of study within the studied area. When he makes his vengeance strike, the vigilante can apply his rounds of study on attacks made against any opponent that he studied for at least 1 round that was within his vengeance strike.

The basic idea for this modified vengeance strike (as well as as the talents) is the opening scene of the Batman Animated Series. You know that Batman has been studied those two thugs since they started running, and he uses his vengeance strike to effortlessly knock them down. Having a mechanic like this for the class would open a LOT of doors for the universal vigilante talents, such as:

I think this could tie in with the social talents. Maybe something like this:

Sizing Up (Ex): A vigilante who selects this talent may observe a potential opponent in a social situation and use that knowledge against the individual at a later date. While interacting with a potential foe in their social identity, a Vigilante may study the individual as a potential target for their Vengeance Strike ability. Each minute of social interaction counts as a round of study for Vengeance Strike. The effect lasts one hour per Vigilante level. A Vigilante may only use Sizing Up on a single opponent at a time, and any use of Size Up results in a Vigilante losing the benefits of any previous study. The number of rounds of study a Vigilante may store using this ability is limited by their level as described in the Vengeance Strike ability.

Forgive the terrible template language, I'm a little tired. I hope it gets the idea across.

After walking my dog around the block, it occurs to me that the base benefits (+3d6 precision damage especially) is probably too good for a Level 1 ability. The benefits of the vengeance strike would almost certainly have to be scaled, probably not unlike studied target's improvements to action economy.

The other thing that's neat about vengeance strike working this way is that its not unlike the assassin's ability to assassinate opponents. This has the effect of making the vigilante the perfect candidate for the James Bond class in addition to the Batman class. It fits the niche of the espionage assassin in ways that the assassin prestige class (which in many ways is the, "sneak into your house and kill you because its my job," assassin can't).

well I would think that it woudlnt' start at 3d6 per round.
it would scale as you level up.
you get extra rounds to study as you level up and teh damage and bonuses scale up as you level up as well.

It wouuld be really damn to study and proc it with acid arrow somewhere

I think this could tie in with the social talents. Maybe something like this:

Sizing Up (Ex): A vigilante who selects this talent may observe a potential opponent in a social situation and use that knowledge against the individual at a later date. While interacting with a potential foe in their social identity, a Vigilante may study the individual as a potential target for their Vengeance Strike ability. Each minute of social interaction counts as a round of study for Vengeance Strike. The effect lasts one hour per Vigilante level. A Vigilante may only use Sizing Up on a single opponent at a time, and any use of Size Up results in a Vigilante losing the benefits of any previous study. The number of rounds of study a Vigilante may store using this ability is limited by their level as described in the Vengeance Strike ability.

Forgive the terrible template language, I'm a little tired. I hope it gets the idea across.

I like the idea. Basically a "Case the Joint" for enemies instead of for locations. (BTW, I still think Case the Joint should be a social talent too.)

Me and my brother were playtesting a 15th level vigilante today, he felt that he wasn't entirely sure what to do with it. He made an aasimar celestial vigilante using a greatsword, but... he wasn't completely sure how he was meant to fight. He assumed support based on channel energy and life bond, but he didn't even feel like he really had the chance to use life bond since his health wasn't exactly high.

I had an idea for a base ability for the vigilante(or at least the avenger... though it could just be a vigilante/social talent):

Battle at a glance:

As a free action you roll perception and may write out up to 5 turns of battle, what each character does for their move(if they move or do something else) and attack actions(who they attack, if they attack, if they use another ability) at the end of each round you are 100% correct you get a free attack or 5ft step action, as well as a stacking +1 bonus to BAB and damage or a stacking +1 to AC and CMD and your saves for the turn after, if you guess wrong you lose the bonus the next round, if you guess more than 3 actions wrong in a round you must roll a percentile to determine if;

1. nothing happens

2 or 3 or 4. you lose an action the next turn and what kind(swift/move/attack)

This ability can only be used for up to 5 rounds a minute, they do not have to be consecutive, but the bonus only lasts one round after the last round you wrote your guesses for, and do not stack unless you guess them all at once.

If you choose to use this ability while changing identities, there is no penalty for failure, and each success garners one less round you must spend changing.

The idea would be for it to function much like how Sherlock Holmes fights in the Robert Downey jr. movies.

Sounds more like a magical ability. A neat idea; the execution probably needs some work.

I would just re-flavor a buff spell like Tactical Acumen along those lines instead of the whole complicated system though.

I had an idea for a base ability for the vigilante(or at least the avenger... though it could just be a vigilante/social talent):

Battle at a glance:

As a free action you roll perception and may write out up to 5 turns of battle, what each character does for their move(if they move or do something else) and attack actions(who they attack, if they attack, if they use another ability) at the end of each round you are 100% correct you get a free attack or 5ft step action, as well as a stacking +1 bonus to BAB and damage or a stacking +1 to AC and CMD and your saves for the turn after, if you guess wrong you lose the bonus the next round, if you guess more than 3 actions wrong in a round you must roll a percentile to determine if;

1. nothing happens

2 or 3 or 4. you lose an action the next turn and what kind(swift/move/attack)

This ability can only be used for up to 5 rounds a minute, they do not have to be consecutive, but the bonus only lasts one round after the last round you wrote your guesses for, and do not stack unless you guess them all at once.

If you choose to use this ability while changing identities, there is no penalty for failure, and each success garners one less round you must spend changing.

The idea would be for it to function much like how Sherlock Holmes fights in the Robert Downey jr. movies.

Not a great mechanic idea. This essentially puts the GM and the vigilante player to blows against one another, because if the player doesn't get his way, then he'll accuse the GM of rigging the game to work against him. On the flip side, if the GM always does what the player wants in order to appease him, then the guessing game mechanic is largely irrelevant AND the ability pigeonholes that particular GM's actions.

The "Robert Downey Jr." mechanic already exists in Pathfinder. Its the investigator's studied combat class feature; RDJr.'s interpretation of Sherlock Holmes was literally the inspiration of that type of investigator. Which is what Sherlock is: an investigator. Not a vigilante.

That said though, it'd be a cool add-on for the vigilante to have.

What I'd like to see all the vigilantes get is a Sense Motive chance to determine how powerful their opponent is, whether in vigilante or social form. Size them up. We've seen Matt Murdock do it with Fisk, and Bruce Wayne with everyone else.

To top it off, how are you a vigilante if you don't get shuriken proficiency? Where's my ability to toss batarangs at my enemies without the need to take the Exotic Weapon Proficiency?

The "Robert Downey Jr." mechanic already exists in Pathfinder. Its the investigator's studied combat class feature; RDJr.'s interpretation of Sherlock Holmes was literally the inspiration of that type of investigator. Which is what Sherlock is: an investigator. Not a vigilante.

Knock. . . knock

There is already a better class for that.

Then why do we need the Vigilante?

:P

M1k31 wrote:

"Battle at a glance"

Not a great mechanic idea. This essentially puts the GM and the vigilante player to blows against one another, because if the player doesn't get his way, then he'll accuse the GM of rigging the game to work against him. On the flip side, if the GM always does what the player wants in order to appease him, then the guessing game mechanic is largely irrelevant AND the ability pigeonholes that particular GM's actions.

The "Robert Downey Jr." mechanic already exists in Pathfinder. Its the investigator's studied combat class feature; RDJr.'s interpretation of Sherlock Holmes was literally the inspiration of that type of investigator. Which is what...

Read the ability again... I did not say "show the GM immediately" I said "write it down"... you don't show the GM your prediction until the end of the turn it predicts... it must however be clearly written beforehand... you are essentially predicting the flow of the battle from your characters perspective and gaining benefits to show you are that good... only if you actually can. This includes the other PC's... so if you predict a PC will attack NPC 3 and NPC 5 you did not perceive attacks ... you the player will possibly be screwed... no GM or player fault...

The ability's balance is the difficulty in pulling it off... that's a possible 6 free attacks(over 5 turns, as that is 5 free attacks and 1 round of BAB +5) at level one... the extra attacks are a trap however, as you must essentially predict the turns that characters die.

I left many technical aspects out simply because that would be best left to Paizo.

As for it being an investigator ability.... this class already steals so many different aspects from other existing classes I'm shocked that surprises you....

Alexander Augunas wrote:

M1k31 wrote:

"Battle at a glance"

Not a great mechanic idea. This essentially puts the GM and the vigilante player to blows against one another, because if the player doesn't get his way, then he'll accuse the GM of rigging the game to work against him. On the flip side, if the GM always does what the player wants in order to appease him, then the guessing game mechanic is largely irrelevant AND the ability pigeonholes that particular GM's actions.

The "Robert Downey Jr." mechanic already exists in Pathfinder. Its the investigator's studied combat class feature; RDJr.'s interpretation of Sherlock Holmes was literally the inspiration of that type of investigator. Which is what...

Read the ability again... I did not say "show the GM immediately" I said "write it down"... you don't show the GM your prediction until the end of the turn it predicts... it must however be clearly written beforehand... you are essentially predicting the flow of the battle from your characters perspective and gaining benefits to show you are that good... only if you actually can. This includes the other PC's... so if you predict a PC will attack NPC 3 and NPC 5 you did not perceive attacks ... you the player will possibly be screwed... no GM or player fault...

The ability's balance is the difficulty in pulling it off... that's a possible 6 free attacks(over 5 turns, as that is 5 free attacks and 1 round of BAB +5) at level one... the extra attacks are a trap however, as you must essentially predict the turns that characters die.

I left many technical aspects out simply because that would be best left to Paizo.

As for it being an investigator ability.... this class already steals so many different aspects from other existing classes I'm shocked that surprises you....

It's an absolutely horrible ability as it relies on the the player to completely predict everything that happens. If even one thing deviates, you lose. It also requires all of combat to stop and let the player write down everything he thinks is going to happen from round to round.

How much detail is he required to go into? A description for every action? Every square of movement? Which spells will be cast?

This ability would be hell to use in any party with a full caster focused on maximizing his actions, or a bard, or an inquisitor, or a magus.

Here's a thought, the Warlock might be one of the two best classes for using Hammer the Gap on. Both the Warlock and the Kineticist can use melee touch attacks, so their chance to hit is going to be higher than others. Hammer the Gap greatly favors accurate builds, and the Warlock and Kineticist will be able to make use of these better than others.

If nothing else, it should help them in powering through energy resistance (though not immunity).

It's an absolutely horrible ability as it relies on the the player to completely predict everything that happens. If even one thing deviates, you lose. It also requires all of combat to stop and let the player write down everything he thinks is going to happen from round to round.

How much detail is he required to go into? A description for every action? Every square of movement? Which spells will be cast?

This ability would be hell to use in any party with a full caster focused on maximizing his actions, or a bard, or an inquisitor, or a magus.

Detail level: Move action: do you move Y/N? and a possibly a direction

for your other action: do you attack(also covers spells that target a foe)? + target, not dependent on success, do you double move instead? anything else(like buffs/talking would just be written as "other"

Free actions would be left out. You only need to know if something "dies" because that character would cease performing actions... which makes 2 of the 3 incorrect actions you are allowed before anything negative possibly happens... which is why most often the likelihood is that a player will only try a single round prediction per round(which would not stack) or a double round prediction...

Maybe just a Sense Motive check (DC 10 + HD?) as a swift action that gives a +1, plus an additional +1 per 5 you beat the check from, and you can spend those plusses on attack roll, damage roll, saving throw, skill check, level checks, etc., or apply those plusses as penalties to an opponent's attack roll, damage roll, saving throw, skill check, etc.

Maybe just a Sense Motive check (DC 10 + HD?) as a swift action that gives a +1, plus an additional +1 per 5 you beat the check from, and you can spend those plusses on attack roll, damage roll, saving throw, skill check, level checks, etc., or apply those plusses as penalties to an opponent's attack roll, damage roll, saving throw, skill check, etc.

that simplifies a complexity which is the balancing factor for the ability....

Tels wrote:

It's an absolutely horrible ability as it relies on the the player to completely predict everything that happens. If even one thing deviates, you lose. It also requires all of combat to stop and let the player write down everything he thinks is going to happen from round to round.

How much detail is he required to go into? A description for every action? Every square of movement? Which spells will be cast?

This ability would be hell to use in any party with a full caster focused on maximizing his actions, or a bard, or an inquisitor, or a magus.

Detail level: Move action: do you move Y/N? and a possibly a direction

for your other action: do you attack(also covers spells that target a foe)? + target, not dependent on success, do you double move instead? anything else(like buffs/talking would just be written as "other"

Free actions would be left out. You only need to know if something "dies" because that character would cease performing actions... which makes 2 of the 3 incorrect actions you are allowed before anything negative possibly happens... which is why most often the likelihood is that a player will only try a single round prediction per round(which would not stack) or a double round prediction...

You're trying to explain further and give more detail about such an ability, but the reality is that such an ability has far too many possible choices for any one person to get accurate. The truth is, if someone were to ever get it accurate, it's because they pre-planned it (i.e. cheated), they've set up a routine, or luck.

I mean, a Magus has a standard action, a move action and a swift action he's likely to use every round (or nearly every round). You have to plan out what each of those actions are going to be used for.

Double move + arcana?
cast spell + move + immediate action spell?
Cast spell + direct spell + quicken spell?
Full attack + arcane strike?
Stand from prone + move + any of the above?
spell combat/spell strike + above?

And that's just a single set of choices (and not all of them) for a single character on the battleboard. You might have a Wizard, a Fighter, and Bard and a Cleric in there as well, each with an abundance of actions.

Do spells that don't target enemies count as an attack? What kind of action are they? What if they do something else, like battlefield control? Or a divination? What about a debuff?

You need to drop this whole idea. It's far too complicated to ever see the light of day.

Just had a player who was going to playtest a vigilante for me in a PFS module I was running, but he wasn't able to build a character he found sufficiently interesting--he's pretty experienced and he seems like someone very amenable to superheroes, and he's also not afraid of silly if you think that might be an issue. He just couldn't easily build a usable and fun level 1 vigilante. He ended up building a gnome monk instead.

I'm not sure that is an incredibly useful data point, but one I wanted to mention.

Here's a thought, the Warlock might be one of the two best classes for using Hammer the Gap on. Both the Warlock and the Kineticist can use melee touch attacks, so their chance to hit is going to be higher than others. Hammer the Gap greatly favors accurate builds, and the Warlock and Kineticist will be able to make use of these better than others.

If nothing else, it should help them in powering through energy resistance (though not immunity).

Good thought. Though I don't tfeel like it helps enough.

Tels wrote:

Here's a thought, the Warlock might be one of the two best classes for using Hammer the Gap on. Both the Warlock and the Kineticist can use melee touch attacks, so their chance to hit is going to be higher than others. Hammer the Gap greatly favors accurate builds, and the Warlock and Kineticist will be able to make use of these better than others.

If nothing else, it should help them in powering through energy resistance (though not immunity).

Good thought. Though I don't tfeel like it helps enough.

I suppose if you had TWF it might add enough extra.

Yup, and the recent change allows for the Warlock to TWF with Mystic Bolt.

Just had a player who was going to playtest a vigilante for me in a PFS module I was running, but he wasn't able to build a character he found sufficiently interesting--he's pretty experienced and he seems like someone very amenable to superheroes, and he's also not afraid of silly if you think that might be an issue. He just couldn't easily build a usable and fun level 1 vigilante. He ended up building a gnome monk instead.

I'm not sure that is an incredibly useful data point, but one I wanted to mention.

Played a Fey Zealot vigilante tonight. That was the most fun of any vigilante I've played at level 1. No idea what to do with it at level 2, but I've been very down on what to do with level 1 vigilantes, so I was happy to see something positive at that level.

Zwordsman wrote:

Tels wrote:

Here's a thought, the Warlock might be one of the two best classes for using Hammer the Gap on. Both the Warlock and the Kineticist can use melee touch attacks, so their chance to hit is going to be higher than others. Hammer the Gap greatly favors accurate builds, and the Warlock and Kineticist will be able to make use of these better than others.

If nothing else, it should help them in powering through energy resistance (though not immunity).

Good thought. Though I don't tfeel like it helps enough.

I suppose if you had TWF it might add enough extra.

Yup, and the recent change allows for the Warlock to TWF with Mystic Bolt.

Yup I suppose the whole line and rapid shot gets you.. 4 extra attacks? If all hits its not a bad boost..

Tels wrote:

Zwordsman wrote:

Tels wrote:

Here's a thought, the Warlock might be one of the two best classes for using Hammer the Gap on. Both the Warlock and the Kineticist can use melee touch attacks, so their chance to hit is going to be higher than others. Hammer the Gap greatly favors accurate builds, and the Warlock and Kineticist will be able to make use of these better than others.

If nothing else, it should help them in powering through energy resistance (though not immunity).

Good thought. Though I don't tfeel like it helps enough.

I suppose if you had TWF it might add enough extra.

Yup, and the recent change allows for the Warlock to TWF with Mystic Bolt.

Yup I suppose the whole line and rapid shot gets you.. 4 extra attacks? If all hits its not a bad boost..

still wish clustered shot would apply for resistances.

I'm confused. Am I missing something about mystic bolt or cluster shot? How don't they work together? Or is it you just can't apply it to it

Zwordsman wrote:

Tels wrote:

Zwordsman wrote:

Tels wrote:

Here's a thought, the Warlock might be one of the two best classes for using Hammer the Gap on. Both the Warlock and the Kineticist can use melee touch attacks, so their chance to hit is going to be higher than others. Hammer the Gap greatly favors accurate builds, and the Warlock and Kineticist will be able to make use of these better than others.

If nothing else, it should help them in powering through energy resistance (though not immunity).

Good thought. Though I don't tfeel like it helps enough.

I suppose if you had TWF it might add enough extra.

Yup, and the recent change allows for the Warlock to TWF with Mystic Bolt.

Yup I suppose the whole line and rapid shot gets you.. 4 extra attacks? If all hits its not a bad boost..

still wish clustered shot would apply for resistances.

I'm confused. Am I missing something about mystic bolt or cluster shot? How don't they work together? Or is it you just can't apply it to it

Mystic bolts deal energy damage which ignores damage reduction, but not energy resistance. Since cluster shot only applies to damage reduction, not energy resistance, it's pointless for a warlock to take it for mystic bolts, unless mystic bolts gets tweaked to allow some physical attacks.

Terminalmancer wrote:

Just had a player who was going to playtest a vigilante for me in a PFS module I was running, but he wasn't able to build a character he found sufficiently interesting--he's pretty experienced and he seems like someone very amenable to superheroes, and he's also not afraid of silly if you think that might be an issue. He just couldn't easily build a usable and fun level 1 vigilante. He ended up building a gnome monk instead.

I'm not sure that is an incredibly useful data point, but one I wanted to mention.

Played a Fey Zealot vigilante tonight. That was the most fun of any vigilante I've played at level 1. No idea what to do with it at level 2, but I've been very down on what to do with level 1 vigilantes, so I was happy to see something positive at that level.

That was also my experience. It feels like the first real new combination of class abilities... still needs work of course but it's sort of playable.

chad gilbreath wrote:

Zwordsman wrote:

Tels wrote:

Zwordsman wrote:

Tels wrote:

Here's a thought, the Warlock might be one of the two best classes for using Hammer the Gap on. Both the Warlock and the Kineticist can use melee touch attacks, so their chance to hit is going to be higher than others. Hammer the Gap greatly favors accurate builds, and the Warlock and Kineticist will be able to make use of these better than others.

If nothing else, it should help them in powering through energy resistance (though not immunity).

Good thought. Though I don't tfeel like it helps enough.

I suppose if you had TWF it might add enough extra.

Yup, and the recent change allows for the Warlock to TWF with Mystic Bolt.

Yup I suppose the whole line and rapid shot gets you.. 4 extra attacks? If all hits its not a bad boost..

still wish clustered shot would apply for resistances.

I'm confused. Am I missing something about mystic bolt or cluster shot? How don't they work together? Or is it you just can't apply it to it

Mystic bolts deal energy damage which ignores damage reduction, but not energy resistance. Since cluster shot only applies to damage reduction, not energy resistance, it's pointless for a warlock to take it for mystic bolts, unless mystic bolts gets tweaked to allow some physical attacks.

They could add special wording into mystic bolt that allowed clustered shots to apply to energy resistance. They did do simmilar for gunslingers....

They could add special wording into mystic bolt that allowed clustered shots to apply to energy resistance. They did do similar for gunslingers....

This would be a mixed blessing, as it would make Clustered Shots a mandatory feat tax on a feat starved build.

I still feel that Mystic Bolts should have the built in ability to overcome energy resistance and immunity at mid to high level, based on the Winter Witch ability to bypass cold resistance/immunity.

Deadkitten wrote:

They could add special wording into mystic bolt that allowed clustered shots to apply to energy resistance. They did do similar for gunslingers....

This would be a mixed blessing, as it would make Clustered Shots a mandatory feat tax on a feat starved build.

I still feel that Mystic Bolts should have the built in ability to overcome energy resistance and immunity at mid to high level, based on the Winter Witch ability to bypass cold resistance/immunity.

I don't know that it would be a mixed blessing. Opening up additional good options for an underpowered build should be a good thing in terms of game balance and enjoyment. Having one enjoyable option should be better than having zero enjoyable options, even if it doesn't allow for much creativity.

Hopefully they open up more than one good options, so instead of being seen as a feat tax, there are simply multiple viable builds.

I do wonder whether the clustered shots-like ability in particular would be better handled as a vigilante talent, instead of special wording that applies to an existing feat.

Considering they did nothing of the sort for the Kinetcist, THE energy damage bolt class, I somehow doubt they'd do it for the Warlock, since it's a secondary class feature at best.

Considering they did nothing of the sort for the Kinetcist, THE energy damage bolt class, I somehow doubt they'd do it for the Warlock, since it's a secondary class feature at best.

Different beasts. The kineticist is designed around making one big attack that deals enough damage that resistance isn't as potent. (Annoying, yes, but less potent.) Mystic bolt, on the other hand, is low damage and designed for interatives, meaning that you can miss with one or more bolts, further lowering the damage done.

Considering they did nothing of the sort for the Kinetcist, THE energy damage bolt class, I somehow doubt they'd do it for the Warlock, since it's a secondary class feature at best.

Mark did tease something about the ability to lower resistance and immunity, at least for the pyrokineticist. Problem is, I'm not entirely certain what his post means. Read my posts following his and then his responses to my posts; it's left me confused on what exactly his post means for the Kineticist.

Luthorne wrote:

chad gilbreath wrote:

Zwordsman wrote:

Tels wrote:

Zwordsman wrote:

Tels wrote:

Here's a thought, the Warlock might be one of the two best classes for using Hammer the Gap on. Both the Warlock and the Kineticist can use melee touch attacks, so their chance to hit is going to be higher than others. Hammer the Gap greatly favors accurate builds, and the Warlock and Kineticist will be able to make use of these better than others.

If nothing else, it should help them in powering through energy resistance (though not immunity).

Good thought. Though I don't tfeel like it helps enough.

I suppose if you had TWF it might add enough extra.

Yup, and the recent change allows for the Warlock to TWF with Mystic Bolt.

Yup I suppose the whole line and rapid shot gets you.. 4 extra attacks? If all hits its not a bad boost..

still wish clustered shot would apply for resistances.

I'm confused. Am I missing something about mystic bolt or cluster shot? How don't they work together? Or is it you just can't apply it to it

Mystic bolts deal energy damage which ignores damage reduction, but not energy resistance. Since cluster shot only applies to damage reduction, not energy resistance, it's pointless for a warlock to take it for mystic bolts, unless mystic bolts gets tweaked to allow some physical attacks.

They could add special wording into mystic bolt that allowed clustered shots to apply to energy resistance. They did do simmilar for gunslingers....

The only language they changed was allowing Gunslingers to benefit from Deadly Aim, not Clustered Shot.

The problem with changing Clusteres Shot to allow stacking damage, is that Mystic Bolt is not just a ranged weapon; it's also a melee weapon. That means, a Warlock who uses the melee version of Mystic Bolt (say, because a creature with reach and resistance charged him) won't be able to penetrate the energy resistance of the creature, but if he shoots the creature instead, he can because of Clustered Shot.

If Clustered Shot were to work with Mystic Bolt in any form, I suspect it would come into play as either a new feat, or a new talent for the Warlock (probably a talent so others couldn't get it easily).

Also the kineticist has the option to switch to a blast the does non elemental damange and targets normal AC when confronted with resistant/immune foes. Warlock does not.

Rynjin wrote:

Considering they did nothing of the sort for the Kinetcist, THE energy damage bolt class, I somehow doubt they'd do it for the Warlock, since it's a secondary class feature at best.

Mark did tease something about the ability to lower resistance and immunity, at least for the pyrokineticist. Problem is, I'm not entirely certain what his post means. Read my posts following his and then his responses to my posts; it's left me confused on what exactly his post means for the Kineticist.

Yeah, that exists for Pyrokineticists, but only for Pyrokineticists. Lowers the resistance by X points per attack if you can Burn people.

Rynjin wrote:

Considering they did nothing of the sort for the Kinetcist, THE energy damage bolt class, I somehow doubt they'd do it for the Warlock, since it's a secondary class feature at best.

Different beasts. The kineticist is designed around making one big attack that deals enough damage that resistance isn't as potent. (Annoying, yes, but less potent.) Mystic bolt, on the other hand, is low damage and designed for interatives, meaning that you can miss with one or more bolts, further lowering the damage done.

You would think, at least, that they'd allow it for the archetype that can full attack then. But they do not.

Also the kineticist has the option to switch to a blast the does non elemental damange and targets normal AC when confronted with resistant/immune foes. Warlock does not.

The Warlock has the option to switch to a bow too. Point?