Introducing the Core Campaign

Jiggy wrote:

And no one batted an eye.

I did because I lost 5 dollars. I had that post pegged as comming in in 5 minutes or less.

Well, let's be optimistic. There's still a chance for that type of thing to be the exception rather than the rule. Gonna try my best to give the benefit of the doubt. :)

BigNorseWolf wrote:

I'll be happy to be proven wrong but I've got a bad feeling about this. Splitting geeks into groups can often split an already small group socially.

I have similar reservations. I mean, mechanically, the idea is fantastic. It addresses multiple issues pretty elegantly.

But on the "people" level... I'm less optimistic. As soon as I finished reading the blog, I was already wondering how this development would interact with existing elements of elitism in the playerbase. As I read through the comments, I pondered whether I should voice my concerns or just quietly hope for the best so I wouldn't risk fueling the very thing I fear.

Then I discovered that it only took 40 minutes for someone to proudly proclaim that the Core Campaign is the place for people who are better roleplayers than those who use more books. It even came straight from a VO.

And no one batted an eye.

I guess I missed that... and I'd been afraid someone might see something and take it that way. Specifics of which quote, please?

Can we get some bestiary's (or just bestiary 1) added so you know we can summon monsters, use our animal companion special abilities (e.g. pounce), wild shape into things etc. etc.

I am so excited about PFS again

Add me to the list of folks with reservations, though I applaud the attempt to lower the barriers of entry for new GMs & players.

While I concur with the concern about splitting the player base further (see also D&D vs. AD&D vs. 2E D&D), my main concern is more spinning this towards the stores that many of us play at and who compete with MtG players & other games for table-space.
CORE-only means the players will have no incentive to buy anything (other than maybe snacks & drinks) at the stores and that may negatively impact the image of Paizo & PFS for the store folks. Hopefully I'm over-thinking this, but I'm curious what some of the other liaisons (or better yet store owners/employees) think about this one.

-TimD

Can we get some bestiary's (or just bestiary 1) added so you know we can summon monsters, use our animal companion special abilities (e.g. pounce), wild shape into things etc. etc.

It has already been said that if a CRB points gives you something that points to beastiary 1, you can use it. So the summon monster lists do just that.

I'm not sure I see the problem of splitting the base. Core-only characters can transition to standard campaign if they want to. So it's not like you're locked into Core-only forever.

Speaking for myself - I look forward to trying out the Core-Only option. And while I find myself wishing for a bit of a middle ground (Core-plus), I see the reasons for doing it as all-or-nothing.

Sounds appealing to me, certainly gives me a reason to try out PFS:)

A clarification on GM Chronicles:

Does a GM need to run a Core-only table in order to gain a Core GM Chronicle, or is it only necessary that it be attached to a Core-only character?

Main reason I ask is that I can see it being exceedingly unclear ahead of time whether a given table is going to end up being run as Core or non-Core. And it doesn't seem like it would make any difference at all to their prep which kind of table they were running.

I'll be happy to be proven wrong but I've got a bad feeling about this. Splitting geeks into groups can often split an already small group socially. I can see a lot of confusion as people muster core only pfs for pfs and vice versa

I suppose if it doesn't work in your area, then don't offer it. In my area someone showing up with a Beginner Box generally holds the coats of the other characters while they crush the encounters. There may be other reasons why we don't see that person again, but levelling the field for newcomers may do more good than harm.

The limiting factor will be the GM pool I think. You may only have one GM and his will sets the rules. On the other side, simpler rules may allow new GMs to dip their toes in. As they get comfortable, they will expand their repertoire and move over to Regular games.

The same may prove true for players. After mastering the core classes, they look to the APG or ACG for new options, then they enter Regular mode. As a bonus, they can replay without penalty.

It is a risk for Paizo to do it this way, but it is just as big a risk to do nothing.

Can we get some bestiary's (or just bestiary 1) added so you know we can summon monsters, use our animal companion special abilities (e.g. pounce), wild shape into things etc. etc.

Bestiary 1 is certainly implied, though I too would like to see it made explicit. I'm sure these things will be clear when the updated Guide is released.

I'm not worried about players not buying books. I think Core is gonna appeal to two types: the ones who have already played almost everything (and already have all the books), and the ones who are just getting started and will view Core as sort of a "bootcamp" to prepare for the greater campaign. Just my two cents.

Here is how I perceive this as going down:

1. We are likely to pick up some new players and some new GMs because the barrier to both of them (the complexity of the rule set, the sheer numbers of options, etc.) is now gone.

2. We are likely to find some folks who will choose to play the traditional campaign only. They will want all the options, and the latest bright and shiny, and so that will be available for them.

3. We are likely to lose some players, and maybe some GMs, who might feel we are diluting the campaign.

The great thing about this is that it allows everyone to basically play the style of PFS they want. The challenge will be in clearly advertising and scheduling appropriately-labeled tables, and then trying to be a bit flexible in filling tables.

For us, we will likely use a regular schedule of when CORE is offered, when traditional PFS is offered, etc. And, as we find out how well that works (or doesn't) we will adjust the schedule to find the right balance. I think that's what will work best for us.

I'm not sure I see the problem of splitting the base. Core-only characters can transition to standard campaign if they want to. So it's not like you're locked into Core-only forever.

You kind of are, because you can't go back. You can only get out once. After that you're forever banished to the realms of weirdos :) . If a table of core doesn't happen and the other table is non core you may have to go home or play a pregen.

It's an extra dimension on the geek sodoku of getting people at the same table at the same time.

vvincent wrote:

I'm not sure I see the problem of splitting the base. Core-only characters can transition to standard campaign if they want to. So it's not like you're locked into Core-only forever.

You kind of are, because you can't go back. You can only get out once. After that you're forever banished to the realms of weirdos :) . If a table of core doesn't happen and the other table is non core you may have to go home or play a pregen.

It's an extra dimension on the geek sodoku of getting people at the same table at the same time.

Exactly.

This won't be a problem at the store I play at that always runs 4-5 tables.

This could be a huge problem at the store I play at that only runs 1 table.

Exactly.

This won't be a problem at the store I play at that always runs 4-5 tables.

This could be a huge problem at the store I play at that only runs 1 table.

My guess would be that most "1 table" stores will stick with the regular campaign.

Now we're one step closer to have my dream spin off PFS campaigns of Sweet Valley High and Babysitters Club.

feiya and harsk in the picture

feiya: it says 'core only' above the door?

harsk: have fun staying out here lol k thx bye

I don't play PFS anymore, all I know is now I want to play PFS core campaign. I don't care how long I have to wait for a table of "core campaign" to open up, it's worth it. My VC keeps a website going to inform the players of what scenarios are being offered and when he offers a core campaign I'll sign up. Also the responsibility of letting the VC (or who ever organizes PFS in your area) know you want "core" lies with the player. Talk to your organizer and let him know what you want. if he doesn't than it's time you started organizing...

Former VC of New Orleans,

Mike D.

I suppose if it doesn't work in your area, then don't offer it.

That will very likely be what happens. Splitting our group would likely induce fission :) .

In my area someone showing up with a Beginner Box generally holds the coats of the other characters while they crush the encounters. There may be other reasons why we don't see that person again, but levelling the field for newcomers may do more good than harm.

This would likely happen with or without core. With core trying to be a two weapon fighting rogue in a group with Decapitator the barbarian and Yarn + Hairball the pouncing kitty druids will have the same result.

On the other hand you might self select for a lower power level... on the other other hand (hey i'm a wolf i get four) if a minority of your group gets dragged into core only by DM availability they might make Decapitator anyway/to prove a point.

The limiting factor will be the GM pool I think. You may only have one GM and his will sets the rules. On the other side, simpler rules may allow new GMs to dip their toes in. As they get comfortable, they will expand their repertoire and move over to Regular games.

I don't think its the new rules that scare new dms off. The regular combat rules are complicated enough. "you're doing what? Ok, how does that work?" Is a pretty common question from a new DM whether its something old or something new

The same may prove true for players. After mastering the core classes, they look to the APG or ACG for new options, then they enter Regular mode. As a bonus, they can replay without penalty.

They can, but may balk at having to either start over from scratch or find that they're moving from elementary school strait into the quantum physics grad program of a campaign thats BOTH higher level and filled with more options.

It is a risk for Paizo to do it this way, but it is just as big a risk to do nothing.

How big of a factor was it in DMs walking away?

I'm not sure I see the problem of splitting the base. Core-only characters can transition to standard campaign if they want to. So it's not like you're locked into Core-only forever.

Fair enough.

Not trying to rain on parades, but would like to know how this should play out before it happens.

-TimD

(... am I the only one who was excited at the prospect of no pets or summoned creatures since Bestiary 1 wasn't included? Oh, well, can't have everything.)

I hear a lot of "What ifs"...

The only two "real" complaints I've heard involved the challenge of scheduling CORE vs. PFS and elitism (or whatever you want to call it).

To those concerned with the former, its just another thing. What's the big deal? With all the factors an organizer has to weigh when scheduling events, this is just another minor challenge. The key is communication. Keep your players informed and other than the occasional hiccup, you'll be fine.

In regards to the latter, if think this is going to be any bigger blip in the forums than any other "argument" topic, I think you've been stricken with the "newest thing" disease. Will there be some people who find fault with this new campaign? Absolutely. Are they going to be any more disruptive than those who already incessantly complain about aspects of the existing campaign? Nope.

Nothing is going to please all the players, all the time

pH unbalanced wrote:

Exactly.

This won't be a problem at the store I play at that always runs 4-5 tables.

This could be a huge problem at the store I play at that only runs 1 table.

My guess would be that most "1 table" stores will stick with the regular campaign.

I'm the store coordinator for a store where PFS is dying (its not just my store, its pretty much dying in the whole city).

I'm hoping that Core only will revitalize things. A combination of more challenging encounters, a more level playing field, and people getting to replay.

For me, the gamble is "heads I win, tails I break even".

After the current module finishes I'll definitely be trying Core and seeing how it works. Quite possibly to the exclusion of non core.

Lamplighter, don't you count animal companions as pets? Because they are still legal. And Mike said that anything in the CRB that referenced another source could still be used if you owned that source. So I think summon monster spells still work as worded in the CRB too.

To those concerned with the former, its just another thing. What's the big deal?

Trying to schedule something other than a 1-5 if you're running at half of your player base.

I assume it could become standard operating procedure to run the 1-5's in core only mode and then if people get through that to shoo them over to the free for all. (This would also let someone replay into those oft unused 7-11s...)

Hmmmm. I actually like that. It would get more people on the same page (eventually)

In regards to the latter, if think this is going to be any bigger blip in the forums than any other "argument" topic, I think you've been stricken with the "newest thing" disease.

Yes, but as much as I may argue with rogue aficionados we can still play at the same table (well, cept that one incident in mexico with the court order...) This takes a philosophical divide and makes it so that you DON"T game with them at the same table.

Lamplighter, don't you count animal companions as pets? Because they are still legal. And Mike said that anything in the CRB that referenced another source could still be used if you owned that source. So I think summon monster spells still work as worded in the CRB too.

I know, Derek... but when I first read the announcement and those clarifications had not been made, I was ecstatic with the possibility that everyone would finally be limited to one PC.

Don't get me wrong, I love the Core Only option, and it helps with a lot of issues such as replay, complexity, etc. The issue it does NOT help with is power creep. If someone wants to find the most broken/powerful/solo/whatever PC, they can still do it in Core. If pounce-kitty druids had been eliminated as part of this proposal due to Bestiaries not being legal, it would have made things better in my opinion.

I'm not worried about players not buying books. I think Core is gonna appeal to two types: the ones who have already played almost everything (and already have all the books), and the ones who are just getting started and will view Core as sort of a "bootcamp" to prepare for the greater campaign. Just my two cents.

As I understand it, i believe this is exactly the two groups that the "Core Campaign" is designed to appeal to-- with an emphasis on the latter group.

I'd love to see "mixed" tables of experienced players and new players playing the "Core Only" option, where the new players aren't overwhelmed by options, and the experienced players explicitly try to help the new players see what this whole PFS thing is all about.

I'd also love to see more people get into GMing now that they don't have to worry about as many crazy character options. We need more online GMs, for instance, I believe!

One thing I do wonder about: is Hero Lab able to restrict itself to Core-only? At the moment, a lot of people operate in the mode of using Hero Lab to make characters without thinking too hard about sources. A lot of other peoplle operate in the mode of looking at d20srd.com without thinking too hard about sources. I suspect we're going to have a minor problem of "Core-only" characters using things that aren't core and the players not fully realizing they've done it....

Joseph Kellogg wrote:

A nitpicky question here, but can I use the boon that lets me make

** spoiler omitted **
on a Core PC?

Bump, looks like this question got lost in the shuffle.

I'm assuming this is only if you earn the boon while playing a Core Character. In other words someone could not create a brand new core character with that boon, since it was earned in the standard campaign.

BigNorseWolf wrote:

Hmmm. How do druids work with this? Shapeshift out of the bestiary?

If a CRB option advises that something found in the CRB is clarified in the Bestiary, then the player uses that specific option out of the Bestiary to meet the requirement set forth in the CRB.

Does this also incorporate other Bestiaries?

For example, the Druid Wild Shape ability makes no reference to any Bestiary, it simply points you to the various Beast, Plant and Elemental Shape spells. Beast Shape makes no reference to the Bestiaries, it simply allows you to turn into an animal of the appropriate size.

Can a Core Campaign Druid turn into an animal from Bestiaries 2-4 or are they limited just to number 1? Various other classes will experience similar issues such as anyone using Planar Ally or Planar Binding.

Michael Brock wrote:

BigNorseWolf wrote:

Hmmm. How do druids work with this? Shapeshift out of the bestiary?

If a CRB option advises that something found in the CRB is clarified in the Bestiary, then the player uses that specific option out of the Bestiary to meet the requirement set forth in the CRB.

Does this also incorporate other Bestiaries?

For example, the Druid Wild Shape ability makes no reference to any Bestiary, it simply points you to the various Beast, Plant and Elemental Shape spells. Beast Shape makes no reference to the Bestiaries, it simply allows you to turn into an animal of the appropriate size.

Can a Core Campaign Druid turn into an animal from Bestiaries 2-4 or are they limited just to number 1? Various other classes will experience similar issues such as anyone using Planar Ally or Planar Binding.

Just Bestiary 1. That will be further clarified when we update the Guide.

I'm the store coordinator for a store where PFS is dying (its not just my store, its pretty much dying in the whole city).

That's too bad. From whereabouts do you hail, if I may ask?

Just Bestiary 1. That will be further clarified when we update the Guide.

Thanks for the quick reply.

I like this idea, I may advertise an ongoing online core only game and see if people can run through all the most deadly and/or enjoyable scenarios using nothing but the basics.

The UK has negligible store based play as far as I can tell so this shouldn't affect play over here all that much. Most games seem to be either home games or based around various University societies.

This doesn't really bring the power level down. In a few ways, maybe. However, there are still full casters and they will still dominate the game as easily as they always have if they choose to do so. Rogues will still be meh, but they get their niche back. Barbarians and Paladins will still mostly outclass Fighters and Rangers.

What I would have rather seen than CRB only is Pathfinder Roleplaying Game only. Just the hardcovers, nothing else. A much less intidating cost to get everything, especially at PDF prices, and only 2 or so book releases per year. We get to keep interesting classes like the Magus and Oracle, but cut out the bloat that some complain about.

I myself will be sticking to the original campaign, cutting out the vast majority of customization makes the game uninteresting to me.

pauljathome wrote:

I'm the store coordinator for a store where PFS is dying (its not just my store, its pretty much dying in the whole city).

That's too bad. From whereabouts do you hail, if I may ask?

Toronto.

Attendance has been very significantly down at all venues. Various theories as to why but nobody really has information to back up their guesses.

This doesn't really bring the power level down.

Nor is it supposed to. Complexity is the target here.

Core only does not stop Druids with pets + summons.
Core only does not stop barbarians from murdering everything.
Core only does not stop wizards from being able to completely shut down any encounter.
Core only dos note stop ranged combat from being the most powerful martial option.

Core only does stop fighters from being able to meaningfully contribute outside of combat.
Core only does stop martials from being able to pounce, but let's druids do it just fine.
Core only does stop character variation via archetypes.
Core only does stop you from ever seeing a Lucerne hammer.
Core only does reverse every option from the last five years that made the monk playable.

In short, core only does nothing to stop the most overpowered options, but does limit the options that allow players to overcome th weaknesses of th core classes. I will likely play in core games, but I'm not convinced it's going to solve the problems the proponents think it will, and I'm concerned about the long term effects on product sales and the player community.

What about retraining to Core? Does it make sense to allow a non-Core character to be able to retrain to Core? What if the character in question is already Core but has played non-Core scenarios?

What of human languages from the Inner Sea World guide such as Kelish and Tien? Some scenarios seem to expect that you will know one or more of these.

What about retraining to Core? Does it make sense to allow a non-Core character to be able to retrain to Core? What if the character in question is already Core but has played non-Core scenarios?

It has been addressed several times. The technology cannot discriminate so once you cross over you can never go back.

What of human languages from the Inner Sea World guide such as Kelish and Tien? Some scenarios seem to expect that you will know one or more of these.

Unless they appear on a Chronicle sheet, they are not available.

Exciting and gutsy! Love it!

Given the monumental size of the stack of books I'd have to lug from table to table to play many of my current PFS characters at a Convention (due to resources & components of builds being spread across so many diverse publications) I welcome this option. While I shall probably continue to play those characters from time to time - the opportunity to just kick back, relax and play a simple Core Rulebook only game appeals to me. I'll miss a few things such as the Drag & Reposition manouvres from the APG but I can live without them if ened be :).

It will also make things simpler. New players will not be flooded with options, left drowning in a sea of rules. Anything that makes things simpler for new players can only be good for the society. I am concerned that existing pfs players might get a bit snobbish about those who are apparently playing with the stabilisers on. Perhaps a few friendly jokes about "when are you going to play with the big boys and learn to sue all the rules?" On the whole 'though I think the Core Campaign is probably a good thing 'though that won't cause too much trouble.

One thing I do wonder about: is Hero Lab able to restrict itself to Core-only? At the moment, a lot of people operate in the mode of using Hero Lab to make characters without thinking too hard about sources. A lot of other peoplle operate in the mode of looking at d20srd.com without thinking too hard about sources. I suspect we're going to have a minor problem of "Core-only" characters using things that aren't core and the players not fully realizing they've done it....

Yes, you can restrict it to Core Only, but it takes modifying the character configuration. Nothing in the audit/verification shows what resources are used. It would be a good upgrade if the program highlighted when a character was Core Only.

Right now you can only have one default configuration, and by default that configuration tends to add any new book you add a license for.

I do think it can be a bigger problem for auditing characters manually, but people will quickly come up with things to look for. Anyone buying a <insert class> kit needs to adjust.

What about retraining to Core? Does it make sense to allow a non-Core character to be able to retrain to Core? What if the character in question is already Core but has played non-Core scenarios?

I am guessing that would not be allowed due to the initial sessions being reported as "non-core" - I do not think the reporting system could differentiate.

A clarification on GM Chronicles:

Does a GM need to run a Core-only table in order to gain a Core GM Chronicle, or is it only necessary that it be attached to a Core-only character?

Main reason I ask is that I can see it being exceedingly unclear ahead of time whether a given table is going to end up being run as Core or non-Core. And it doesn't seem like it would make any difference at all to their prep which kind of table they were running.

I am guessing a GM would have to apply a non-core GM sheet to a non-core PC due to the fact that the game would be reported as a non-core game and the reporting system does not differentiate players from GM for credit.

I guess once we see the reporting system we will know more clearly.

I for one am thrilled by this...I've often thought of challenging myself by building a core assumption only character but didn't want to bring down my fellow players at any given table.

Anyone buying a <insert class> kit needs to adjust.

Pathfinder's Kit it is then. :)

I'm glad it makes folks happy and I hope it works out but it's not for me (as a player). I won't mind GMing Core Campaign as long as the GM credit can be applied to a standard Campaign character. If Core Campaign GM credit must be assigned to a Core Campaign-compliant character, then it really puts a damper on my enthusiasm.