Advanced Class Guide

The black raven wrote:

Hayato Ken wrote:

Threeshades wrote:

Hayato Ken wrote:

Don´t know where to post this else, but it would be really, really good if stuff like that get´s clarified before or at release, to save a lot of people a lot of headaches and discussions. That way we could alo more often play and enjoy this game^^

Do swashbuckler finesse and slashing finesse work with a titanmauler barbarian second levels jotungrip? I can totally see someone crossclassing there and trying to use a nodachi one-handed.

I can tell you right now: Nodachis are two-handed weapons. While a Titan Mauler may be able to wield it one-handed (I'm not even sure if it really is), it's still a two-handed weapon and cannot be used with slashing finesse (which requires a one-handed weapon)

In the hands of a Titanmauler, a two handed weapon is treated as one handed with jotungrip. You ad-hoc solution does not solve the question.

Something like this will most probably come up in PFS and "table variation" or some people saying they know it are not satisfying. I ask this question because of the language that is used there, which is very similar in a lot of other cases, in this case dervish dance, so you can´t just say something. There are enough other examples where people said it´s not working but it actually is working.

From the Design Team :

Quote:

FAQ: http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9quw

Weapons, Two-Handed in One Hand: When a feat or other special ability says to treat a weapon that is normally wielded in two hands as a one handed weapon, does it get treated as one or two handed weapon for the purposes of how to apply the Strength modifier or the Power Attack feat?

If you're wielding it in one hand (even if it is normally a two-handed weapon), treat it as a one-handed weapon for the purpose of how much Strength to apply, the Power Attack damage bonus, and so on.

So the Jotungrip actually "converts" your 2-handed weapon to a 1-handed

...

I am reading the same FAQ and getting that it counts as one handed for all abilities that look at handedness.

Looks like jotungrip should work but giving up how many levels of swashbuckler to get it when swash gives you +1 per level is it worth it?

Looks like jotungrip should work but giving up how many levels of swashbuckler to get it when swash gives you +1 per level is it worth it?

It's not that bad really, you give up two levels but gain ragey goodness.

It doesn't work. The only things that get figured as one handed weapon are derived statistics. It doesn't allow you to use other class abilities that require a one-handed weapon.

So, while reading the errata to crane wing just now, something occured to me. I found the swashbuckler ability to parry quite intruiging, but rolling dice out of your turn kind of slows down combat even more, what is something not liked very much by many people already, leading to bizarre handlings of initiative and other things.

Also, i liked the original crane style very much.

Without making any speculations why this was nerfed so heavily (yes i know some think it was broken) i want to suggest an alternative which might be good for crane style and for the swashbuckler.
Instead of rolling dice or adding a flat never changing bonus, why can´t there just be something that scales?
I see two ways there.
-Either let it be a roll, but instead of rolling you always take ten and add your level and/or your combat boni (BAB, STR/DEX, weapon boni).
-Or add those boni to your AC.

Both ways make for a much faster solution than rolling dice again.
In case of the swashbuckler this can still be linked to a free AoO.
For crane style this could be once a round.
Monks and swashbucklers normaly have no or only light armor, so should still be ok, but also still be viable. I think it´s also not automatic invincibility anymore with crane style then.
It could also be stated that this doesn´t work with medium and/or heavy armor for some reasons.

I can't find this Crane Wing errata. Could you provide a link please. : )

I'll give ya the benefit of the doubt....

Benefit: Once per round, when f ighting defensively

with at least one hand free, you can designate one melee
attack being made against you before the roll is made.
You receive a +4 dodge bonus to AC against that attack.
If you using the total defense action instead, you can
def lect one melee attack that would normally hit you.
An attack so def lected deals no damage and has no other
effect (instead treat it as a miss). You do not expend an
action when using this feat, but you must be aware of the
attack and not f lat-footed.

You can find it on this page, specifically in this PDF that's now binding for PFS.

Thanks Cheapy. : )

Why is it that when I click 'Help/FAQ' at the top of the page it claims that the last errata to Ultimate Combat was in October 2013?

Because this wasn't an FAQ/errata'd, they went straight to print.

Erm, it was errata. They just don't list all errata in the FAQ unless there was a FAQ associated with it.

Removed a post. Let's not bring debates about another product here, please.

Erm, it was errata. They just don't list all errata in the FAQ unless there was a FAQ associated with it.

Thanks.

Which button do I click for errata? I wouldn't have had a clue about this if I hadn't accidentally discovered it reading this thread. I favourited your post just so I could find that link again. There has to be an easier way. : )

Anyone ever consider the Dervish Dance feat for the Swashbuckler? I'm going to be trying out this in my next campaign with a heavy panache use (through regaining panache with critical hits) and dodge stacking to create a medium damage dealer who can shake up the melee combat for other DPS characters to mess up the bad guys. Any thoughts?

I'm not quite finished looking through optimum feat-building yet, but with the added DEX to melee damage and the precision damage you gain from level 3, along with the Extra Grit and Signature Deed feats, you can make heavy use of the panache deeds to make up for the lack of power-attack level damage.

Consider Signature Deed with Targeted Strike or Bleeding Strike: for free with every attack, you can knock a target prone while dealing full damage or do your DEX mod worth of bleed damage with every hit? Then stacking two Extra Grit feats for a total of 4 + your CHA mod worth of panache points that you can regain on a critical hit (that with a Dervish Dance scimitar, you can get to 16-20x2 with Swashbuckler Weapon Training). It seems like a fairly decent build for a melee 'debuffer'. If I'm missing any points, I'm open to them!

There was much discussion about how the Swashbuckler class seemed custom-built to force people into a binary choice during the playtest.

A: Choose the Dervish Dance feat

B: Make a Str based Swashbuckler

There were also some hints that there might be similar feats to Dervish Dance (but weapon agnostic) coming in the ACG.

Anything that breaks up the scimitar dominance is a good thing as far as I'm concerned.

Anything that breaks up the scimitar dominance is a good thing as far as I'm concerned.

Now if only we could break the "swords and longbows are better than everything else" dominance.

Kudaku wrote:

Anything that breaks up the scimitar dominance is a good thing as far as I'm concerned.

Now if only we could break the "swords and longbows are better than everything else" dominance.

Meet wish

One really nice homebrew method for that back in 3.5 was introducing multiple levels of proficiency, upgrading a weapon's statstics when you go from simple to martial to exotic profiency with it, similar to the hand and a half weapons, so that simple weapon doesn't automatically mean rubbish and inferior to martial weapons. For example a quarterstaff would gain reach and trip in the hands of a character with martial weapons proficiency.

Another way, and less subsystemy, was stuff you could only do with simple weapons like BoED's Intuitive Attack (though that was rubbish for its own reasons)

There were also some hints that there might be similar feats to Dervish Dance (but weapon agnostic) coming in the ACG.

Anything that breaks up the scimitar dominance is a good thing as far as I'm concerned.

Unfortunately this won't do a lot for Magi, as they love their 18-20 crit range and the other 18-20 weapons are unfinesable or completely inferior (lower damage die or piercing)

Unfortunately this won't do a lot for Magi, as they love their 18-20 crit range and the other 18-20 weapons are unfinesable or completely inferior (lower damage die or piercing)

I agree that magi love the threat range and are unlikely to pick up, say, a handaxe without an arcana or feat that lets the critical hit multiplier somehow interact with spellstrike.

That said, the difference between using a slashing and a piercing weapon is nowhere near as big as the difference between a weapon finesse magus using a rapier and a dervish dance magus using a scimitar.

At the very least it'd mean that dervish dance magi could fight an enemy with slashing damage reduction without shooting themselves in the foot :)

Even with it, it's an Arcana tax (unless it did more than just applying your crit mod to criticals) and the limited spells per day favor more frequent crits as they have less time to average out.

Also I checked once, the ONLY advantage a piercing weapon has is against Rakshasa and if your weapon is Holy or otherwise good aligned, it doesn't have an advantage there either all the time some are piercing OR good.

I checked once, the ONLY advantage a piercing weapon has is against Rakshasa and if your weapon is Holy or otherwise good aligned, it doesn't have an advantage there either.

Also I checked once, the ONLY advantage a piercing weapon has is against Rakshasa and if your weapon is Holy or otherwise good aligned, it doesn't have an advantage there either.

I think you misunderstood - I meant that the difference between using a scimitar and a rapier is huge for dexterity-focused magi because of dervish dance - if dervish dance worked with all weapon finesse weapons then the gap between piercing and slashing finesse weapons would shrink significantly.

The final note was meant as a reference to the fact that dervish dance characters tie themselves rather strongly to slashing damage - monsters that have DR penetrated by piercing or bludgeoning (skeletons, clay golems) or that interact poorly with slashing damage (various kinds of ooze) pose a problem.

Oh, I know and it will add a few more options for non-magi and help them out there, but magi don't gain a whole lot (most of their damage is from spells which ignore DR anyways)

There were also some hints that there might be similar feats to Dervish Dance (but weapon agnostic) coming in the ACG.

I wouldn't count on it. The devs disagree on the balance, and basically allowed Dervish Dance only because its restricted. Regardless of which side of that fence you are one, Paizo as a whole doesn't seem to want it in, and has sort of gotten rid of the other attempts to allow it. It could happen, don't get me wrong, I just wouldn't count on it.

Kudaku wrote:

There were also some hints that there might be similar feats to Dervish Dance (but weapon agnostic) coming in the ACG.

I wouldn't count on it. The devs disagree on the balance, and basically allowed Dervish Dance only because its restricted. Regardless of which side of that fence you are one, Paizo as a whole doesn't seem to want it in, and has sort of gotten rid of the other attempts to allow it. It could happen, don't get me wrong, I just wouldn't count on it.

From the Swashbuckler Class Discussion thread.

Okay...for all you Dex damage junkies, we are looking into options that allow you to do it, but they will probably be more like Dervish Dance -- that is options that you feat into.

Perhaps one could still be pessimistic about it, but I'm optimistic about that statement, especially since Stephen seemed very reluctant to yield that point to begin with.

DM Beckett wrote:

Kudaku wrote:

There were also some hints that there might be similar feats to Dervish Dance (but weapon agnostic) coming in the ACG.

I wouldn't count on it. The devs disagree on the balance, and basically allowed Dervish Dance only because its restricted. Regardless of which side of that fence you are one, Paizo as a whole doesn't seem to want it in, and has sort of gotten rid of the other attempts to allow it. It could happen, don't get me wrong, I just wouldn't count on it.

From the Swashbuckler Class Discussion thread.

Stephen Radney-MacFarland wrote:

Okay...for all you Dex damage junkies, we are looking into options that allow you to do it, but they will probably be more like Dervish Dance -- that is options that you feat into.

Perhaps one could still be pessimistic about it, but I'm optimistic about that statement, especially since Stephen seemed very reluctant to yield that point to begin with.

+1 to optimism

One really nice homebrew method for that back in 3.5 was introducing multiple levels of proficiency, upgrading a weapon's statstics when you go from simple to martial to exotic profiency with it, similar to the hand and a half weapons, so that simple weapon doesn't automatically mean rubbish and inferior to martial weapons. For example a quarterstaff would gain reach and trip in the hands of a character with martial weapons proficiency.

That was me:

DM Beckett wrote:

Kudaku wrote:

There were also some hints that there might be similar feats to Dervish Dance (but weapon agnostic) coming in the ACG.

I wouldn't count on it. The devs disagree on the balance, and basically allowed Dervish Dance only because its restricted. Regardless of which side of that fence you are one, Paizo as a whole doesn't seem to want it in, and has sort of gotten rid of the other attempts to allow it. It could happen, don't get me wrong, I just wouldn't count on it.

From the Swashbuckler Class Discussion thread.

Stephen Radney-MacFarland wrote:

Okay...for all you Dex damage junkies, we are looking into options that allow you to do it, but they will probably be more like Dervish Dance -- that is options that you feat into.

Perhaps one could still be pessimistic about it, but I'm optimistic about that statement, especially since Stephen seemed very reluctant to yield that point to begin with.

Thanks for digging up that quote! I'll go light another Light of hope.

Man, they'd need to tone down the Swash a ton if they add Dex to damage for core.

Man, they'd need to tone down the Swash a ton if they add Dex to damage for core.

I don't really see it... The swashbuckler already has Dex to damage via Dervish Dance.

Or am I missing sarcasm again? I'm rubbish at reading forum-sarcasm :(

I've been running a game with a Swashbuckler, and I actually agree with Cheapy... being able to roll an extra dice on pretty much any type of check using a point of Panache already makes Swashbucklers VERY powerful. I think Dex to damage without needing Dervish Dance might send it over the top into TOO powerful.

EDIT: Replace "pretty much any type of check" in my post with "a lot of checks that are useful in a Skull & Shackles game". That happens to be what I'm running my players though, so I might be seeing a skewed data set on how useful the Swashbuckler is.

That double precision damage hits in pretty hard at higher levels, that´s true. Would be much better as an additional attack at full BAB, like the ninja has with ki points.
On lower levels and 1-2 the swashbuckler is really low so far and there DEX to damage can really save her hide. And they already stated that will most probably be one or more feats.

Problem i had was more with regaining panache. Swashie hit something, prepared for final strike and zoooooom, the barbarian rushed in hacking everything in two halves. Which left me without panache more often than not.

I've been running a game with a Swashbuckler, and I actually agree with Cheapy... being able to roll an extra dice on pretty much any type of check using a point of Panache already makes Swashbucklers VERY powerful. I think Dex to damage without needing Dervish Dance might send it over the top into TOO powerful.

EDIT: Replace "pretty much any type of check" in my post with "a lot of checks that are useful in a Skull & Shackles game". That happens to be what I'm running my players though, so I might be seeing a skewed data set on how useful the Swashbuckler is.

I believe the further quotes from Stephen say something along the lines of a feat tax, similar to Dervish Dance, but hopefully one that can be taken at first level.

I did a little bit of digging and I found the following:

whos_that wrote:

Stephen Radney-MacFarland wrote:

Okay...for all you Dex damage junkies, we are looking into options that allow you to do it, but they will probably be more like Dervish Dance -- that is options that you feat into.

So...will you guys then be redesigning mythic finesse if this feat is available to all weapons?

It will not be open to all weapons. Basically it will not be Weapon Finesse (Mythic). It will be more like Dervish Dance. You get it for this weapon.

Shadar Aman wrote:

That's disappointing, but totally understandable. I admit that I'm mostly asking because I was hoping to try it out on some other classes. Do you expect this feat to be broadly available, or Swashbuckler only?

Not entirely sure yet. Still hammering out the details. If I were a betting man I would say it it will be as open as Dervish Dance is...so other classes would be able to use it as well, but it will have more utility for the swashbuckler.

Speculation: So most likely a feat that comes online around level 3 and has some fairly specific limitations akin to the dervish dance's "one free hand" rule. Like Weapon Focus it would only work with one specific weapon, but it's a possibility that you could take the feat multiple times and get the bonus with different weapons.

If the feat only allows you to finesse with 1 weapon then you would still be struggling to pierce various damage reductions. This actually makes some interesting weapons attractive - light and one-handed weapons that deal two types of damage. The gladius, the dagger, the boarding axe, the cestus etc.

Sidenote: Personally I houseruled Dervish Dance to work with any light or 1-handed weapons that qualify for weapon finesse (and renamed it Improved Weapon Finesse) about six months ago and I've had no problems.

I did a little bit of digging and I found the following:

Stephen Radney-MacFarland wrote:

whos_that wrote:

Stephen Radney-MacFarland wrote:

Okay...for all you Dex damage junkies, we are looking into options that allow you to do it, but they will probably be more like Dervish Dance -- that is options that you feat into.

So...will you guys then be redesigning mythic finesse if this feat is available to all weapons?

It will not be open to all weapons. Basically it will not be Weapon Finesse (Mythic). It will be more like Dervish Dance. You get it for this weapon.

Stephen Radney-MacFarland wrote:

Shadar Aman wrote:

That's disappointing, but totally understandable. I admit that I'm mostly asking because I was hoping to try it out on some other classes. Do you expect this feat to be broadly available, or Swashbuckler only?

Not entirely sure yet. Still hammering out the details. If I were a betting man I would say it it will be as open as Dervish Dance is...so other classes would be able to use it as well, but it will have more utility for the swashbuckler.

Speculation: So most likely a feat that comes online around level 3 and has some fairly specific limitations akin to the dervish dance's "one free hand" rule. Like Weapon Focus it would only work with one specific weapon, but it's a possibility that you could take the feat multiple times and get the bonus with different weapons.

If the feat only allows you to finesse with 1 weapon then you would still be struggling to pierce various damage reductions. This actually makes some interesting weapons attractive - light and one-handed weapons that deal two types of damage. The gladius, the dagger, the boarding axe, the cestus etc.

Sidenote: Personally I houseruled Dervish Dance to work with any light or 1-handed weapons that qualify for weapon finesse (and renamed it Improved Weapon Finesse) about six months ago and I've had no problems.

Aasimar, Half-Elf, Half-Orc and Human are ok with this feat. They can all take martial Versatility to spread the dex love around. At higher levels they can drop a feat or two to DEX to damage a full weapon group. So long as Swashbuckler can continue to take parent class restricted feats that is.

Man, they'd need to tone down the Swash a ton if they add Dex to damage for core.

No, I don't think that is necessary. It is more a matter of how and when you can use it.

Let’s say they make it a feat that comes with a str prereq of 13 and feat prereqs like Weapon finesse and it can only be used in one hand and you can’t use a shield or another weapon in the other hand, but you can use a buckler. It only applies to light weapons and one one-handed weapon of your choice.

Now given this you can’t dump you str, you can’t use TWF, you can’t use a THW, you can’t use a weapon and shield bash combo. I think this would balance it. Hey, you could even throw in a 13 int prereq although I would find that to be unnecessary (and possibly provocative).

The fact is we already have the Dervish Dance feat that led to the Scimitar domination. I really would like a feat that let me use a Dagger or rapier or longsword or flail with dex. I would also like the feat on the PRD so anyone playing this game could create a swashbuckler, fighter, rogue or whatever, based on dex.

Hey folks,

So I'm making a Swashbuckler/Rogue and looking at the Swashbuckler Finesse feature and I'm wondering if it might make more sense to use the Blades, Light weapon group as opposed to all P weapons light and one handed. I mean what makes more sense, a Swashbuckler wielding a cutlass or one wielding a heavy pick?

Don't the latter feel like one of them 'What's wrong with this picture?' moments?:)

OH

Hey folks,

So I'm making a Swashbuckler/Rogue and looking at the Swashbuckler Finesse feature and I'm wondering if it might make more sense to use the Blades, Light weapon group as opposed to all P weapons light and one handed. I mean what makes more sense, a Swashbuckler wielding a cutlass or one wielding a heavy pick?

Don't the latter feel like one of them 'What's wrong with this picture?' moments?:)

OH

Well, there's a dorf pick duelist in the NPC codex. Make of that what you will.

At level 5 so far my swashies damage is pretty good but not exactly amazing even with the dex to damage bard dip. A barbarian with a greatsword would do more.

So where or when can I get this and if I can't get it yet what are all ten classes

So where or when can I get this and if I can't get it yet what are all ten classes

Linky

At the cost of sounding jerky, I rebate that i'll only allow dex to damage when there will be a feat for strengh to AC and reflexes and initiative.

Thanks

At the cost of sounding jerky, I rebate

You don't sound jerky, just illiterate. "Repeat" means "say again," and, based on context, seems to be the word you were looking for. A "rebate" is a refunding of a portion of the sales price -- an advertising gimmick.

At the cost of sounding jerky, I rebate that i'll only allow dex to damage when there will be a feat for strengh to AC and reflexes and initiative.

If it was straight "DEX instead of STR to damage" I could see your point, but with all the restrictions it's pretty meh, even if you don't mind paying 2 feats for it.

Dekalinder wrote:

At the cost of sounding jerky, I rebate

You don't sound jerky, just illiterate. "Repeat" means "say again," and, based on context, seems to be the word you were looking for. A "rebate" is a refunding of a portion of the sales price -- an advertising gimmick.

English is not my mother language so, well, let's say i'm less than infallible. What I wanted to say was "restate". Anyway, now i'm a bit less illiterate.

Anyway back on topic, restricting a feat is not an excuse to pass crap under the radar. Especially if this restriction are going to be tailor made so that you are going to meet the requisite anyway.

The route that i'd like them to take for making dex effective in combat is diversifing it from strengh. Like strengh focusing on damage while dex focusing on battelfield control trough very high CMB and special options. Anyway, wishfull thinking.

Stuffy Grammarian wrote:

Dekalinder wrote:

At the cost of sounding jerky, I rebate

You don't sound jerky, just illiterate. "Repeat" means "say again," and, based on context, seems to be the word you were looking for. A "rebate" is a refunding of a portion of the sales price -- an advertising gimmick.

English is not my mother language so, well, let's say i'm less than infallible. What I wanted to say was "restate". Anyway, now i'm a bit less illiterate.

Anyway back on topic, restricting a feat is not an excuse to pass crap under the radar. Especially if this restriction are going to be tailor made so that you are going to meet the requisite anyway.

The route that i'd like them to take for making dex effective in combat is diversifing it from strengh. Like strengh focusing on damage while dex focusing on battelfield control trough very high CMB and special options. Anyway, wishfull thinking.

I can kind of see where you are coming from. Strength is obvious, it is just hitting harder but dex to damage feels more like a precision thing... like not just hitting someone in the arm but right at the inner bend of the elbow. But precision damage is kind of weak and doesn't stack so for a melee class that already gets a precision bonus it is abstracted to "untyped" damage.

At the cost of sounding jerky, I rebate that i'll only allow dex to damage when there will be a feat for strengh to AC and reflexes and initiative.

Eh, why not. Oracles, who are SAD even without it, can already replace dex with charisma for both (Lore, Lunar and Nature get a mystery for AC and Reflex/CMD and Noble Scion: War is a feat they can use) and get to be full casters on top of it. I don't see any harm in letting strength, an attribute that is mostly used by weak MAD classes, dump a stats (how strength lets you move first or avoid getting hit I don't know, but nothing unbalanced).

I understand that the Swashbuckler is OFFICIALLY a Fighter + Gunslinger hybrid, but (slightly tongue-in-cheek), I'm not buying it.

Panache, Deeds, and Nimble are obviously derived from the Gunslinger's Grit, Deeds, and Nimble features, but there is very little in the class to indicate any real influence from the Fighter.

The Bonus Feats, Training, and Mastery are from Fighter, but the Bonus Feats are only every 4th level - so it's already much more like a Gunslinger's Bonus Feats than a Fighter's (which are every other level). Additionally, Training is only for swashbuckling weapons (duh), and Mastery is only for those weapons; this mimic the Gunslinger's focus on firearms.

Swashbuckler is just a very, very solid Base Class with the Advanced Class moniker, and it's a shame. I'd rather the Swashbuckler Class be re-assigned as a simple Alternate Class of the Gunslinger, and not have to worry about the hybrid nature of the Advanced Classes.

The Swashbuckler has so little in common with the Fighter it doesn't warrant being considered a "hybrid;" instead, both from a cursory glance and upon close analysis, it's really just Gunslinger's Inigo-Montoya-Worshiping Evil Twin. The Gunslinger is Clint Eastwood to the Swashbuckler's Errol Flynn, and there's not an ounce of Fighter to be found in the class.

Heck, the Samurai is an Alternate Class of the Cavalier, so you can't even make the argument that all Alt Classes are only for Core Classes, not Base Classes (such as the Ninja being the Alt for the Monk, and the Antipaladin being the Alt of the - duh - Paladin).

I'm okay with the idea of Advanced Classes, but I'll be more than a bit miffed if Paizo puts out the Swashbuckler as an "Advanced" Class, when by all rights it should just be an Alternate Class solely for the Gunslinger, and leave the Fighter half out of the equation.