Guide 4.2 and Changes to Pathfinder Society Organized Play

Weapon cords interfere with fine manual actions, such as reloading a gun.

Nope they just walk around with their guns in hand and only tie/untie when needed to do something else.

Sadly since Fine Manual Actions isn't clearly defined and reloading guns is not specified to be a fine manual action. Table variation will occur.

Though give me a minute I may have something to check.

Tossglove: A tossglove is a hefty leather and metal

glove made for holding and throwing an insect, snake, or
other tiny creature that would otherwise bite the goblin.
Those who don’t use a tossglove when attempting to sling
such creatures provoke an attack of opportunity from
the animal they attempt to throw or stash. The glove
has overlapping plates that cover the goblin’s arm up to
the elbow. It’s a full-round action to put on or take off
a tossglove, and while it’s worn, that hand can’t be used
to perform acts of fine manipulation (such as making
a Disable Device check or firing an arrow). The gloved
hand can still wield a melee weapon.

Looking at this we can see some examples for a similar term of Fine Manipulation. So definatly no bow firing or disabling devices.

Tossglove: A tossglove is a hefty leather and metal

glove made for holding and throwing an insect, snake, or
other tiny creature that would otherwise bite the goblin.
Those who don’t use a tossglove when attempting to sling
such creatures provoke an attack of opportunity from
the animal they attempt to throw or stash. The glove
has overlapping plates that cover the goblin’s arm up to
the elbow. It’s a full-round action to put on or take off
a tossglove, and while it’s worn, that hand can’t be used
to perform acts of fine manipulation (such as making
a Disable Device check or firing an arrow). The gloved
hand can still wield a melee weapon.

Looking at this we can see some examples for a similar term of Fine Manipulation. So definatly no bow firing or disabling devices.

Well, if you can't fire a bow, I wouldn't expect you could easily reload a gun, either. And since both items say they prevent fine manipulation/finer actions...

I agree and thats what I'll be ruling at my table (and letting gunslinger know up front.

Though now i see adding in a couple more free actions and hand switching between shots to reload with one hand while the other has the cord.

you apparently dont have many gunslingers at your table. I have sit at a couple tables where melee types walk out because they never get to hit anything. gunslingers with high inits basically one shot every mob as it gets to the party.

I've played a gunslinger and this hasn't been my experience.

Are you sure you're using the firing into combat and cover rules properly? And the gunslingers are within the first range increment to gain their ranged touch attacks? And the players are reporting misfires, especially when misfiring % doubles when they use paper cartridges?

Even if you're doing all of this, next season is assuming a six player table, so those combats where not everyone gets to do something will receive a bit of a shake-up.

Glad to see the new races, and stat changes for now-forbidden archetypes, the synthesist looks cheesy but I've never played or played with one, yet gunpowder just doesn't belong in most campaigns settings like Golarion. I've got to write up that aasimar oracle that I've been waiting for, although tiefling sorcerer is tempting. Still though, ultimate melee cheese: barbarian 1, alchemist 1, druid 4 or higher.

next season is assuming a six player table, so those combats where not everyone gets to do something will receive a bit of a shake-up.

Hmm, so will 4 be a legal table but with scenarios designed for 6? Unless there's some modifier, like adjusting the number of mooks to the number of players, that encourages people to just drop out of a game if the class and level mix of a 4-person table doesn't look favorable to their character's survival.

Scenarios will have instructions on adjusting encounters for tables with 4 characters.

yet gunpowder just doesn't belong in most campaigns settings like Golarion.

Yeah, but it's not the 'fantasy' theme they're trying to preserve with the gravewalker, undead lord, and vivisectionist bans, it's the 'good guys' aspect. If removing the creepier stuff is supposed to make the game more kid-friendly, it's weird that they don't apply the same filter to the entire Chelaxian faction, since its missions basically assume you're the BDSM sub to some infernal cult.

So as far as I can see outside of the Synthesist and Master Summoner. Everything else seams banned for no good reason. I maybe wrong but thats the feel I get.

Trust me they had reasons they just haven't explained them. They may not explain them thats up to them. But I feel confident that if they did then it would make reasonable sense.

Hakken wrote:

you apparently dont have many gunslingers at your table. I have sit at a couple tables where melee types walk out because they never get to hit anything. gunslingers with high inits basically one shot every mob as it gets to the party.

I've played a gunslinger and this hasn't been my experience.

Are you sure you're using the firing into combat and cover rules properly? And the gunslingers are within the first range increment to gain their ranged touch attacks? And the players are reporting misfires, especially when misfiring % doubles when they use paper cartridges?

Even if you're doing all of this, next season is assuming a six player table, so those combats where not everyone gets to do something will receive a bit of a shake-up.

yeah--the unfortunate thing is the firing into combat and all other factors dont affect a gunslinger much as they target touch ac.

consider this---a young blue dragon ac 20--touch 10. who hits easier? how many negatives would you need to add. now take an adult blue dragon--ac 28--up 8 and touch ac 8--down 2. It gets EASIER for a gunslinger. Take it to ancient and you get ac 37 and touch 5. so from young to ancient-regular characters had to get a +17 to stay the same to hit roll---gunslingers got a negative 5. and that stays consistent for many monsters.

spellcasters hitting that ever lowering touch ac would have to deal with spell resist that went from young=0 to adult =24 to ancient 29. there is no such balancing factor as spell resistance for gunslingers.

in a homebrew campaign you can put kobolds or orcs or whatever out at medium range where they are not in point blank. In PFS--almost all combat is short range.

I have not even seen the DMs make them account for their cartridges used--let alone misfires. GMs should have to sign off on each sheet for every shot used at 6gp a shot. but in general those shots are ignored--talked to one gunslinger and he said--I just assume my day job takes care of the miscellaneous expense. Were I to run one--would probably audit the gunslinger to make sure he was always paying for shots--but have never seen that done.

Ok I can maybe see some reasons but; can anyone name some. When it still could be possible to do the archetypes in a different way.

another common one that doesnt get updated as monsters rise

ogre vs ogre magi

ogre ac 17 touch 8. 30 hps. melee will mis often--hard to miss touch

ogre magi ac 21 touch 12. spell resist 19--(once again relizing it should be tougher they allowed to make it harder for casters)

paizo did not up the touch ac as monsters level up--meaning almost auto hits for gunslingers. and if they do up the touch-and monsters still have sr--casters are hosed.

I appreciate these changes but I hate retroactive nerfs.

I hate having to say I-told-you-so.

There is always the Magus left to irk you!

Michael Meunier wrote:

How will this play when that moment comes where that extra GM is needed for a con/game day/etc. just before showtime and said GM gets blindsided with ARG material in that 30 minute prep time and either can't get a hardcover book.

I imagine they'll have to beg/borrow/steal from someone that has the scenario prepped, or a player that brought the relevant material to the convention, or the event organizer (who's probably a crazy enough fan to own all the stuff anyway), or find a wifi access point and check it quick enough to jot down some notes, or check someone's PDF copy on their tablet (or netbook)...

Except that the main building for Conception (large UK convention), WiFi may be blocked. WiFi in the Chalets is charged at £5/hr (I think).

And not all of us can afford the luxury of a laptop. I carry my stuff on a USB stick so someone else wil have to use their Laptop to read it.

Then there is the issue that many of the games are played in seperate chalets. So no, it's doubtful we'd be able to contact someone for the details.

Are we saying that new races from ARG aren't going to have stat blocks or sidebars in scenarios?

Confused
Paul H

Please keep it at an appropriate level... It's a game, It's a fact, so don't be too excessive.

As Mike said on the top of the post :

However you feel about these changes, I ask that you remain respectful of the feelings of others when commenting below. We are a community and we all know players who probably have a beloved character affected by the changes above. Please keep discourse civil and appropriate.

Hi

Yeah, I know. Not everyone's as 'Balanced' as me! LOL

Just feel that sonme of these changes would't be necessary if they'd sorted them when the new classes/archetypes first came out. So much time, love & effort lost.

Ah well. Realise I'm not the only one spending hours redoing characters....

Paul H

Lastly, can't understand disallowing these archetypes whilst opening up far more powerful races from the latest splat book.

Paul H

Maybe it's not always about 'power' and 'balance'?

It seems that table-time, integrity of the PFS Golarion, family-friendliness and other factors are also involved here.

I really don't think it's about family friendliness, but more about streamlining play styles and what the Pathfinder Society (in game) is all about, as well as making it easier for different players to always work together without too much (non-PVP) infighting.

I have not even seen the DMs make them account for their cartridges used--let alone misfires. GMs should have to sign off on each sheet for every shot used at 6gp a shot. but in general those shots are ignored--talked to one gunslinger and he said--I just assume my day job takes care of the miscellaneous expense. Were I to run one--would probably audit the gunslinger to make sure he was always paying for shots--but have never seen that done.

Thing is, this is part of GM failure, not player, or class failure.

And this is also one of the reason I like discussion on these boards. If I have a Gunslinger* at the table, I now know this has been an issue and know to check ammo use in the past, and at least make sure to mark it down on the sheet post game. I can't fix the past, but I *can* make sure to do my part to keep it from happening again.

Just like I got a lot of confusion dispelled on Animal Companions (No, nothing esoteric like Apes with Hammers, things like tricks, pushing, etc etc.) This is why forums and being polite** are important.

*

I really don't think it's about family friendliness, but more about streamlining play styles and what the Pathfinder Society (in game) is all about, as well as making it easier for different players to always work together without too much (non-PVP) infighting.

Family friendliness also requires common sense. Case in point (spoilered for family friendliness)

I want more kids at the table, it's easier when people leave their gorier choices at home. Heck, I'll downplay Mayim's flirty nature, and upplay (if that's possible) Dex's "It's not my heritage that makes me who I am" nature to encourage positive role models.

Take Boat wrote:

Argument mooted by THE POWER OF READING.

New question! Since continual flame now persists between scenarios, can I hire an NPC spellcaster with Heighten Spell to give me a level 4 continual flame to thwart deeper darkness or are spellcasting services limted to vanilla spells only?

Spellcasting services still fall under the "No metamagic enhancement" category, as it did in previous versions of the guide. So, it will be a level 1 spell.

Continual Flame is a 3rd level cleric spell.

what paizo needs to do is come out with a rule limiting how many "free" action reloads you can do in 1 round. reloading a double barrel pistol 8 times (four for each hand --utilizing weapon cords) is cheese extreme.

The limit I enforce on tables is ONE...ONE free action per round. So no matter how you slice it, you can't reload 8 times in one round.

Tossglove: A tossglove is a hefty leather and metal

glove made for holding and throwing an insect, snake, or
other tiny creature that would otherwise bite the goblin.
Those who don’t use a tossglove when attempting to sling
such creatures provoke an attack of opportunity from
the animal they attempt to throw or stash. The glove
has overlapping plates that cover the goblin’s arm up to
the elbow. It’s a full-round action to put on or take off
a tossglove, and while it’s worn, that hand can’t be used
to perform acts of fine manipulation (such as making
a Disable Device check or firing an arrow). The gloved
hand can still wield a melee weapon.

Looking at this we can see some examples for a similar term of Fine Manipulation. So definatly no bow firing or disabling devices.

Well, I think you just shot yourself in the foot with that (see what I did there?) Firing a Bow seems to be an easier set of actions than reloading a firearm.

Matt Seay wrote:

yet gunpowder just doesn't belong in most campaigns settings like Golarion.

Yeah, but it's not the 'fantasy' theme they're trying to preserve with the gravewalker, undead lord, and vivisectionist bans, it's the 'good guys' aspect. If removing the creepier stuff is supposed to make the game more kid-friendly, it's weird that they don't apply the same filter to the entire Chelaxian faction, since its missions basically assume you're the BDSM sub to some infernal cult.

I don't see how anyone can say that gunpowder doesn't fit in Golarion.

There's an entire city based around firearms and gunpowder inside the Inner Sea Guide.

Alkenstar anyone?

Hakken wrote:

what paizo needs to do is come out with a rule limiting how many "free" action reloads you can do in 1 round. reloading a double barrel pistol 8 times (four for each hand --utilizing weapon cords) is cheese extreme.

The limit I enforce on tables is ONE...ONE free action per round. So no matter how you slice it, you can't reload 8 times in one round.

So at your table, if they drop their weapon on their foot, they can't say "Ow"? Limiting free actions like that starts down an even cheesier road in my mind...

bugleyman wrote:

One change I've not seen discussed is the expansion of the core assumption, which seems like a big deal. Unlike players, who know ahead of them what they will need, GMs either have to bring ALL of the hardbacks or some kind of electronic device. Either way, the GM buy-in has greatly increased. We need more, not fewer, GMs.

No it hasn't. If we use a monster from Bestiary 3, a GM can now print out the monster info from the PRD and we don't have to print a full stat block in the scenario.

If we use an archetype or class from UM or UC, we don't have to reprint those in every scenario we want to use them in. The GM can print one or two pages from the PRD that covers those rules.

Where does it advise a GM has to bring every hardcover, or even buy them for that matter?

What it does increase is the assumption that a GM will actually pre-read a scenario before running it. This is something we should be doing anyway (and something I am often guilty of not doing).

On the other hand, it neither raises nor lowers the monetary bar for entry into the world of GMing. What this ultimately means is that anyone can GM as long as they have a copy of the Core Rulebook, a copy of the Pathfinder Society Field Guide, a copy of the Guide to Pathfinder Society Organized Play, a copy of the Bestiary, and access to the PRD, which is made freely available to players and GMs via the magic of the Internet. This is a concession Paizo are making in order to be able to use more appropriate and flavorful material for their Pathfinder Society scenarios without requiring every GM to buy a copy of every book they might use.

More GMs means a greater potential for more players. More players means more games. In the end, everybody wins.

Hakken wrote:

what paizo needs to do is come out with a rule limiting how many "free" action reloads you can do in 1 round. reloading a double barrel pistol 8 times (four for each hand --utilizing weapon cords) is cheese extreme.

The limit I enforce on tables is ONE...ONE free action per round. So no matter how you slice it, you can't reload 8 times in one round.

I agree that there has to be a limit on free actions.

But limiting it to one seems really, really excessive.

The answer to the reload question is simple. Take a level in Druid, so you have an animal companion, say, a chimpanzee, and have him spend his entire action reloading your pistols and passing them back to you.

What?

What, did I say something wrong?

The answer to the reload question is simple. Take a level in Druid, so you have an animal companion, say, a chimpanzee, and have him spend his entire action reloading your pistols and passing them back to you.

What?

What, did I say something wrong?

Using that well known 'Reload Pistol' trick that you taught him?

Chris Mortika wrote:

The answer to the reload question is simple. Take a level in Druid, so you have an animal companion, say, a chimpanzee, and have him spend his entire action reloading your pistols and passing them back to you.

What?

What, did I say something wrong?

Using that well known 'Reload Pistol' trick that you taught him?

Fine, take a level of wizard instead and hand it to your monkey familiar (then bond the pistol to you as your bonded item).

The limit I enforce on tables is ONE...ONE free action per round. So no matter how you slice it, you can't reload 8 times in one round.

So... No archers at your table either LazarX?

Ninjaiguana wrote:

Chris Mortika wrote:

The answer to the reload question is simple. Take a level in Druid, so you have an animal companion, say, a chimpanzee, and have him spend his entire action reloading your pistols and passing them back to you.

What?

What, did I say something wrong?

Using that well known 'Reload Pistol' trick that you taught him?

Fine, take a level of wizard instead and hand it to your monkey familiar (then bond the pistol to you as your bonded item).

See, now you're talking sense!

Ninjaiguana wrote:

Chris Mortika wrote:

The answer to the reload question is simple. Take a level in Druid, so you have an animal companion, say, a chimpanzee, and have him spend his entire action reloading your pistols and passing them back to you.

What?

What, did I say something wrong?

Using that well known 'Reload Pistol' trick that you taught him?

Fine, take a level of wizard instead and hand it to your monkey familiar (then bond the pistol to you as your bonded item).

Isn't one of the new changes that you can't bond with a firearm?

Ninjaiguana wrote:

Chris Mortika wrote:

The answer to the reload question is simple. Take a level in Druid, so you have an animal companion, say, a chimpanzee, and have him spend his entire action reloading your pistols and passing them back to you.

What?

What, did I say something wrong?

Using that well known 'Reload Pistol' trick that you taught him?

Fine, take a level of wizard instead and hand it to your monkey familiar (then bond the pistol to you as your bonded item).

Love the idea but wasn't there something in there about no bonded guns? Rest of the idea works though! Now if there was just a way to give the monkey Rapid Reload......

Ryan Bolduan wrote:

Ninjaiguana wrote:

Chris Mortika wrote:

The answer to the reload question is simple. Take a level in Druid, so you have an animal companion, say, a chimpanzee, and have him spend his entire action reloading your pistols and passing them back to you.

What?

What, did I say something wrong?

Using that well known 'Reload Pistol' trick that you taught him?

Fine, take a level of wizard instead and hand it to your monkey familiar (then bond the pistol to you as your bonded item).

Love the idea but wasn't there something in there about no bonded guns? Rest of the idea works though! Now if there was just a way to give the monkey Rapid Reload......

Ninja'd!

Ryan Bolduan wrote:

Ninjaiguana wrote:

Chris Mortika wrote:

The answer to the reload question is simple. Take a level in Druid, so you have an animal companion, say, a chimpanzee, and have him spend his entire action reloading your pistols and passing them back to you.

What?

What, did I say something wrong?

Using that well known 'Reload Pistol' trick that you taught him?

Fine, take a level of wizard instead and hand it to your monkey familiar (then bond the pistol to you as your bonded item).

Isn't one of the new changes that you can't bond with a firearm?

What I'm wondering is how he got a familiar and a bonded object...

What I'm wondering is how he got a familiar and a bonded object...

Perhaps he comes from a long line of accomplished wizards like I do? My heritage can be traced back to one of Aroden's apprentices if you know the genealogies well enough.

Obviously the tongue in cheek nature of my response did not translate well in my post.

Could the stat dumping be fixed By all stats start with a 10 and the only way you can go beneath it is if your race ability negative takes it there. Just an idea.

Great job, guys. It looks impressive and it's clear that Mike and Mark really listened to the ongoing discussions and made some difficult choices. Awesome work.

Could the stat dumping be fixed By all stats start with a 10 and the only way you can go beneath it is if your race ability negative takes it there. Just an idea.

I'm not certain there's anything to be fixed by this. Characters with low stats are part and parcel of the game. The problems lie in players not roleplaying their character's limitations, or finding mechanical ways to make them irrelevant.

Anyway, this isn't germane to the 4.2 changes.

LazarX wrote:

The limit I enforce on tables is ONE...ONE free action per round. So no matter how you slice it, you can't reload 8 times in one round.

So... No archers at your table either LazarX?

Taking arrows from your quiver doesn't need a separate action, it's part of the attack action.

Derwalt wrote:

LazarX wrote:

The limit I enforce on tables is ONE...ONE free action per round. So no matter how you slice it, you can't reload 8 times in one round.

So... No archers at your table either LazarX?

Taking arrows from your quiver doesn't need a separate action, it's part of the attack action.

Drawing ammunition is a free action.