Guide 4.2 and Changes to Pathfinder Society Organized Play

Argument mooted by THE POWER OF READING.

New question! Since continual flame now persists between scenarios, can I hire an NPC spellcaster with Heighten Spell to give me a level 4 continual flame to thwart deeper darkness or are spellcasting services limted to vanilla spells only?

Spellcasting services still fall under the "No metamagic enhancement" category, as it did in previous versions of the guide. So, it will be a level 1 spell.

Argument mooted by THE POWER OF READING.

New question! Since continual flame now persists between scenarios, can I hire an NPC spellcaster with Heighten Spell to give me a level 4 continual flame to thwart deeper darkness or are spellcasting services limted to vanilla spells only?

My understanding of the "light affecting" spells is that you have to have a higher level spell. 0-level: light, 2nd level: darkness, 3rd level daylight, 4th?5th? Deeper darkness, etc.

I don't think caster level affects it, but I am welcoming to be corrected.

If I decide to change my synthesist into something other than an Summoner, am I capable of selling the wand I have used charges of?

Sell as in selling treasure? Or did you mean a refund?

PFGOP 4.2 page 28 wrote:

If a class, prestige class, or a class feature-dependent ability score is altered: You may rebuild your character to its current XP, maintaining the same equipment.

probably not a full refund. but what's left of it.
charge cost = full price / 50. charge cost * # of charges = amount you could get a refund for probably.

If I decide to change my synthesist into something other than an Summoner, am I capable of selling the wand I have used charges of?

No, it is partially used and that ship has sailed. I suggest saving it for use by fellow Pathfinders at your table.

Yay! Now I can rebuild my character in such a way that it keeps being fun for me and my friends to play with it!

I'm now no longer saddened by this change :) The only thing I feel bad about now is Cheapy's post further back. You're usually so well spoken and base your replies on facts and a great rules understanding. It saddens me to see you make such a blanket statement.

@a lot of posters / haters: your arguments might be true in some cases, but they are not true in all. The rule has been posted. The way you want things are now the way it is (and I want it that way as well). Why do you have to add insult to injury by being a jerk to some of us, who has done nothing wrong? Please refrain from doing so in the future. Thank you.

Take Boat wrote:

Argument mooted by THE POWER OF READING.

New question! Since continual flame now persists between scenarios, can I hire an NPC spellcaster with Heighten Spell to give me a level 4 continual flame to thwart deeper darkness or are spellcasting services limted to vanilla spells only?

Spellcasting services still fall under the "No metamagic enhancement" category, as it did in previous versions of the guide. So, it will be a level 1 spell.

Level 2, actually, for arcane. It's level 3 for divine. So no, the service won't take care of deeper darkness because it'll be the level 2 version.

It'll cancel regular darkness....unless you have a friendly 5+ cleric or wizard with heighten spell (and also that spell).

My understanding of the "light affecting" spells is that you have to have a higher level spell. 0-level: light, 2nd level: darkness, 3rd level daylight, 4th?5th? Deeper darkness, etc.

I don't think caster level affects it, but I am welcoming to be corrected.

Heighten-ing a spell actually raises its spell level. That is pretty much all it does for the metamagic costing leaving some to feel it is overpriced.

Ah, I forgot to check the FAQ for the metamagic rule. READING HO!!!

Daniel: Heighten Spell changes the actual spell level, so a Heightened continual flame would be treated as a 4th-level spell if it were cast from a 4th-level slot.

Oh well. Maybe I'll take Heighten as a prereq to Preferred Spell and make my own.

If other people pay for the material component can I cast it on an item of theirs for them to keep if we happen to meet during a scenario? Is the word "have" tied to the caster, or can NPCs/other PCs provide spell effects for PCs to "have"?

RachelK wrote:

Why do people give so much hate to synthesists?

People are mean and it is okay?

Yet PFS says that bullying is not?

People don't make sense; it is a game.

Let others have fun and don't tease them for doing so when it was perfectly within the rules at the time.

i've no qualm with them getting rid of synthesits. i didn't dump stats as much as i could, and mine's still disgusting to look at. +11 natural armor? and you can add mage armor to it? his stats accross the board are 20(22), 14, 14, 14, 14, 20 at 8th level. if that weren't an alien suit, that'd be about a 54 point buy character. without the suit he's 8(10), 10, 14, 14, 14, 20 at 8th level as an aasimar.

its just when he goes, i'd like to be able to swish around his stats a bit, so i can still play him. I loved the concept of becoming an angel , wearing an angel suit, but i'll find some other way to build that with other classes. but an 8 str and 10 dex won't leave much room for him to actually hit things anymore.

I have no qualms either I just wish people would not be mean to someone for building an effective character that was legal at the time and then find that their character is going to die horribly...

the Diviner wrote:

If I decide to change my synthesist into something other than an Summoner, am I capable of selling the wand I have used charges of?

Sell as in selling treasure? Or did you mean a refund?

Quote:

PFGOP 4.2 page 28 wrote:

If a class, prestige class, or a class feature-dependent ability score is altered: You may rebuild your character to its current XP, maintaining the same equipment.

Refund. Using the rebuild rules as they appear in this blog. The thing is I have a few used wands that I would no longer be capable of using if I'm no longer A Summoner.

So my question is this: Can I sell Used Wands with the current Rebuilding rules, If my new class does not have the required spells on their spell-list?

Ah. Okay Mike, Noted.

Yay! Now I can rebuild my character in such a way that it keeps being fun for me and my friends to play with it!

I'm now no longer saddened by this change :) The only thing I feel bad about now is Cheapy's post further back. You're usually so well spoken and base your replies on facts and a great rules understanding. It saddens me to see you make such a blanket statement.

@a lot of posters / haters: your arguments might be true in some cases, but they are not true in all. The rule has been posted. The way you want things are now the way it is (and I want it that way as well). Why do you have to add insult to injury by being a jerk to some of us, who has done nothing wrong? Please refrain from doing so in the future. Thank you.

This post made me smile. Although I don't play a synthesist I know a person who does and I was sad to think they would die without a fighting chance.

My Druid loves role playing with that character; I'm happy now.

Due to the excitement of adding tieflings, aasimar and tengu to the PFS mixing pot, I think a couple "Wark! Wark!"'s are in order.

reading the document, so its the free bonded item that must be from the list of always available items? so if my character has paid for another item, and paid the cost to bond that item, its legal and i don't need to change anything. correct?

And maybe more than just a single tengu avatar picture ...

And....BOOM, there goes the Mike Brock dynamite....

Hero to the masses.

And for those one or two that asked about why the ban-hammer wasn't dropped on crazy archers, the entire Summoner or Alchemist classes, etc. when these were...some have already said it, but I'll toss my 18 copper in (yes, I consider my opinion 9 times as important as usual..ahem...

I believe these were all banned because of either flavor or what I'll call "table brokenness". The Undead Lord, Viv Alch and Gravewalker - flavor and nearing that odd line that no one wants to cross since this supposed to be an organized game for the masses (including youngins).

The summoners? Master is out, I would say, because if you aren't TOTALLY prepared ahead of time, one turn will most likely last approximately 18 hours once you get going into the class. This isn't true for everyone, but it will be for the masses probably, and in any case, having say 23 aurochs roaming the table will be fun for awhile, and then it will probably just get boring for everyone else.

I haven't seen the synth in play, but I can say I have never heard anyone say they thought that archetype was a good idea (including myself) because of just how ridiculous it is. I mean, you give up being two entities to become this Ben-10-like (I have six year olds, gimme a break) super structure. What I think it comes down to is the Synth idea is broken from the start without even trying. All other builds you at least have to invest feats, gold, etc. in to break - this one you don't have to do anything.

Guys I just want to point out that this is now a moot point. Mike has revised his statement above.

In my opinion if you want to continue the underlying theoretical discussion it should probably be taken to its own thread. Just sayin'.

What theory? The rebuild may lets stats be changed, but the "maintaining the same equipment." clause will be quite putative for many characters.

Chris Bonnet wrote:

I would hope players take some time with their rebuilds and think of positive changes that could be used to build on.

In my original incarnation I had a lot of hp and a decent AC. I very rarely dealth any significant damage.

When I show up at my next game, following current rules, I will be completely trivializing combat. I don't need to change stats to accomplish this.

Normally I do not build for such a purpose, but since you have taken away the concept I have worked the last six months to achieve and cannot reallocate stats to move on to my next concept ....... I guess trivializing combat will have to do.

Well you could certainly go that route, but don't you think that's kinda the jerk (fine, then I'll become a problem) route?

Yay! Now I can rebuild my character in such a way that it keeps being fun for me and my friends to play with it!

...

Hmm... I never found your character that funny. Except for on 5 particular occations ;)

With that said I am happy that you are not stuck with those dump stats. They would have been as much of a punishment for the rest of the party, as they would for you.

Of my characters, the only one affected is my Gravewalker, whos' not actually evil... just mean and unpleasant.
While we did not get a blanket ban on clerics of evil deities, I will keep lobbying for it!

(EDIT: Derwalt and I are actually good friends!)

reading the document, so its the free bonded item that must be from the list of always available items? so if my character has paid for another item, and paid the cost to bond that item, its legal and i don't need to change anything. correct?

That is correct. It is only the free item that must be an always available item.

One request for everyone. Don't let this become another Apes with hammers thread. The players we lost during that dark time were not limited to those who posted on the thread.

can races be changed with the banning of the archetypes?

can races be changed with the banning of the archetypes?

No

Well done, and thanks for the changes and updates!

Very professional. Thank you!

You may retrain any feats that directly apply to the changes above as necessary.

How are these feats defined? I have a former vivisectionist alchemist who had feats that helped him excel in melee, and now his melee abilities have been stunted a bit with the lack of sneak attack. Will I be able to trade those abilities for ones which help me make use of my new bombs?

I'm a little disappointed at this change, but I welcome the chance to rebuild my character, as long as I don't have to worry about being subpar at both melee and ranged now.

Quote:

You may retrain any feats that directly apply to the changes above as necessary.

How are these feats defined? I have a former vivisectionist alchemist who had feats that helped him excel in melee, and now his melee abilities have been stunted a bit with the lack of sneak attack. Will I be able to trade those abilities for ones which help me make use of my new bombs?

I'm a little disappointed at this change, but I welcome the chance to rebuild my character, as long as I don't have to worry about being subpar at both melee and ranged now.

If I had to guess, I'd say that ifyou took sap adept, or anything that required something the archetype gave that the base class didn't have, then you could change it. If you took weapon focus (claws), probably not.

. Will I be able to trade those feats for ones which help me make use of my new bombs?

Yes, you may trade those feats.

Well this sucks, i'm not very long into my character. He's only level 3, one adventure away from 4th, but why in all the multiverse do i have to scrap my undead lord? Now some of you might think hey 3rd going on fourth no big deal right? Wrong, I've had this character over a year in a half of making, owing to the lack of PFS game play in my neck of the woods. I have backstory, plans, goals, and artwork for this character. I even been chronicling his battles and trails in a "journal" my own little story of this character. Well i've just put and end to his story now, scrapped him because now i can't see playing a watered down version of a cleric or wizard. just can't. I've made a handful of PFS characters, and an army of what ifs, and this is the only one I've had such a prime interest in seeing where his story takes him. Well his story ends here with a ***** slap from god saying bad boy, and as for me. I can't see investing my time, emotion, energy, and money in another character that will probably get a axe in it sooner rather than later. Here's me fading into the dark once more.

The Absalom dockmaster looked through his telescope and gasped. He began to sweat, fumbled with the signal horn, and blasted a warning to the rest of the dock. Sailors looked up with surprise and trepidation across their faces. Across the horizon an armada of junks sailed through the waters. Circling above each junk was a collection of multicoloured kites, fluttering in the winds. And on the bough of the ships? Tengu. Hundreds upon hundreds of sword-waving, treasure-seeking, loud squawking corvid-blooded adventurers.

Ha! I love these changes.

I think the play experience in Pathfinder Society will have it's fun score increased by +4 as a permanent bonus as a result of these being made. I love the fact that synthesists and master summoners can rebuild and shuffle their stats. I love the fact that my tables most likely have no classes to complain about anymore! (except maybe Antagonise, but hey, small steps)

I'd personally keep Aasimar and Tieflings 'special' as con boons but I am too overjoyed about Tengu becoming mainstream to stop other players getting their celestial and infernal fun. The next step? Complete Tengu! Can we get more avatars now?

Most of all, I'm delighted that the double hackbut is staying in Alkenstar where it belongs. I was pretty critical of this weapon on the boards, and it's great to see that the issue has been examined by the powers-that-be. Everything that seemed odd and broken has had a magnifying glass applied to it. It's a great model of showing how an organised play experience can quickly come up with a listing of what rules shine and which don't.

I love the fact that I can get a boon from GMing. Does this work retroactively?
Great work all round :)

Here's me fading into the dark once more.

Careful, now. You get to rebuild the stats and class. Why not just rebuild him as a Cleric of Urgathoa? Is it his personality, or his class abilities that you're so invested in?

The Lord, he can still be a cleric of Urgathoa. He just loses his Corpse Companion, and the Command Undead feat, in exchange for a second domain. It's a very minor change.

You can still have a backstory, plans, and artwork.

If you get that bent out of shape losing a skeleton companion, I can't imagine what kind of a tissy you'd throw if your character were actually, you know, killed off or something.

While these changes wont make everyone happy (we are a fractious bunch).

At least the additional changes regarding stat rebuild (hours after the blog) give the affected players a way out.

I think this just shows the attentiveness of the Paizo folks. The ability to adapt and to reconsider changes way faster than other companies we've all gamed with.

We need to take the rhetoric down a notch, step away from our screens and come back ready to get our game on!

Well, I was a tiefling before it was cool.

I have always had a serious love of the god based classes. My paladin when first concepted in 3.5 was a half-angel, and I loved him. The GM liked smacking him with ray of enfeeblements to make him drop like a stone. Took more fall damage with that guy than anyone! Now, I can make an Aasimar. I will have quite a few Aasimar characters now...for all the good it does me since I'm constantly GMing. :P

I love the fact that I can get a boon from GMing. Does this work retroactively?

Glad you like the changes, but Mike's already answered this one -- no.

Idea for future (convention?) boon:

"If your character has a racial boon chronicle sheet applied... [insert something cool]"

That would offer any "old school" aasimar, tengu, tieflings or any future fully open races something special. :)

They got a one year head start on everyone else. They played in a time when those races were rare. Some will say that was a sufficient boon, some will not.

We added three new races to character creation for all players to choose from: aasimar, tengu, and tiefling.

MUahahahahaah

Anyone know why the vivisectionist got the axe? Too good at really low levels? Too much stealing the rogues thunder?

Anyone know why the vivisectionist got the axe? Too good at really low levels? Too much stealing the rogues thunder?

I do know the answer, but since the reason was discussed in an NDA location I'll have to wait for Mike to answer.

One change I've not seen discussed is the expansion of the core assumption, which seems like a big deal. Unlike players, who know ahead of them what they will need, GMs either have to bring ALL of the hardbacks or some kind of electronic device. Either way, the GM buy-in has greatly increased. We need more, not fewer, GMs.

One change I've not seen discussed is the expansion of the core assumption, which seems like a big deal. Unlike players, who know ahead of them what they will need, GMs either have to bring ALL of the hardbacks or some kind of electronic device. Either way, the buy-in for being a GM has greatly increased.

Not exactly. The PRD is a valid source of content for GMs, but nothing says that said content must be accessed electronically at the table. Print out your monster stats ahead of time.

One change I've not seen discussed is the expansion of the core assumption, which seems like a big deal to me. Unlike players, who know ahead of them what they will need, GMs either have to bring ALL of the hardbacks or some kind of electronic device. Either way, the buy-in for being a GM has greatly increased.

Actually, it has been discussed in the changelog thread.

GMs are not required to own all the hardback books. The guide states that GMs should have "access to all books in the Pathfinder Roleplaying Game line of hardcover rulebooks," then goes on to clarify that access through the PRD is acceptable.

Players are still required to have access to the materials for their characters if it's not in the Core Rulebook.

The intent of this change is to improve several aspects of scenario publishing:

1) It reduces word count in the scenarios dedicated to stat blocks.
2) It reduces errors in the statblocks, as now the developer can reference the source, just as they do with creatures in the Bestiary today.

If you don't own a copy of the hardback that is referenced in a scenario, you can research it ahead of time during your scenario prep and even print it out from the PRD if that's most convenient for you.

Players are still required to have access to the materials for their characters if it's not in the Core Rulebook.

Ah, that's different then. Concern withdrawn.

One change I've not seen discussed is the expansion of the core assumption, which seems like a big deal. Unlike players, who know ahead of them what they will need, GMs either have to bring ALL of the hardbacks or some kind of electronic device. Either way, the GM buy-in has greatly increased. We need more, not fewer, GMs.

No it hasn't. If we use a monster from Bestiary 3, a GM can now print out the monster info from the PRD and we don't have to print a full stat block in the scenario.

If we use an archetype or class from UM or UC, we don't have to reprint those in every scenario we want to use them in. The GM can print one or two pages from the PRD that covers those rules.

Where does it advise a GM has to bring every hardcover, or even buy them for that matter?

Well, I was a tiefling before it was cool.

So was my barbarian ;)

One change I've not seen discussed is the expansion of the core assumption, which seems like a big deal. Unlike players, who know ahead of them what they will need, GMs either have to bring ALL of the hardbacks or some kind of electronic device. Either way, the GM buy-in has greatly increased. We need more, not fewer, GMs.

We're not blindsiding GMs with content they don't know they're going to need. Every scenario going forward is going to include a sidebar listing all sources required to run the adventure, and every time we use a rule from somewhere other than the Core Rulebook or Bestiary, we'll call out where it comes from. When GMs prep the scenarios, they can either make notes in their printout of the adventure explaining how a spell or feat works, bookmark the necessary page in their hardcover books, print out the relevant pages from a PDF copy of the book, or print out the necessary rules from the free Pathfinder Reference Document.

There's been a lot of feedback in the last few years for more content from non-core material, and we have tried to accomodate that request. The result, however, was needing to reprint content from everything but the Core Rulebook and Bestiary, and while that was really handy for GMs at the table, it added a lot of work on our end of things, especially when really complex classes needed to be fully explained or entire monsters needed to be reprinted. Such redundant rules increased the word-count the editorial team needed to develop, lay out, and edit, as well as the number of pages GMs needed to print, yet it didn't increase the resources to spend on that extra work or those extra bits of paper and ink on the user's end.

For several years now Pathfinder Adventure Paths and Modules have not reprinted material that was available on the PRD and while some have complained, most people we've heard from have appreciated the extra room that opened up in each respective adventure as content wasn't being repeated both in the adventure, the hardcover rulebook, and the PRD.

While I think the new layout is good, with chapter breaks happening on page breaks, I'm not a fan of the increased amount of artwork. It brings it in-line with other Paizo publications, but it is killer on ink. I will just have to remember to copy the text and format it for my own printing.

We're not blindsiding GMs with content they don't know they're going to need. Every scenario going forward is going to include a sidebar listing all sources required to run the adventure, and every time we use a rule from somewhere other than the Core Rulebook or Bestiary, we'll call out where it comes from. When GMs prep the scenarios, they can either make notes in their printout of the adventure explaining how a spell or feat works, bookmark the necessary page in their hardcover books, print out the relevant pages from a PDF copy of the book, or print out the necessary rules from the free Pathfinder Reference Document.

There's been a lot of feedback in the last few years for more content from non-core material, and we have tried to accomodate that request. The result, however, was needing to reprint content from everything but the Core Rulebook and Bestiary, and while that was really handy for GMs at the table, it added a lot of work on our end of things, especially when really complex classes needed to be fully explained or entire monsters needed to be reprinted. Such redundant rules increased the word-count the editorial team needed to develop, lay out, and edit, as well as the number of pages GMs needed to print, yet it didn't increase the resources to spend on that extra work or those extra bits of paper and ink on the user's end.

For several years now Pathfinder Adventure Paths and Modules have not reprinted material that was available on the PRD and while some have complained, most people we've heard from have appreciated the extra room that opened up in each respective adventure as content wasn't being repeated both in the...

Whoa! As indicated, as long as players are still required to bring the material for their characters, then my concern about GMs having to bring everything does not apply.

I could argue that represents a sea change in the meaning of "Core assumption," but I'm not actually trying to pick a fight here.

To repeat: As long as players still need to bring the material pertinent to their character, complaint withdrawn.

No it hasn't. If we use a monster from Bestiary 3, a GM can now print out the monster info from the PRD and we don't have to print a full stat block in the scenario.

If we use an archetype or class from UM or UC, we don't have to reprint those in every scenario we want to use them in. The GM can print one or two pages from the PRD that covers those rules.

Where does it advise a GM has to bring every hardcover, or even buy them for that matter?

Settle down, Francis. ;)