Guide 4.2 and Changes to Pathfinder Society Organized Play

Monday, August 6, 2012

With Gen Con just 10 days away, I wanted to release the new and improved Guide to Pathfinder Society Organized Play, Version 4.2 today so everyone has an opportunity to review it and discuss it before Gen Con. With the help of the Venture-Captains and Venture-Lieutenants, and specifically the tireless efforts of Boston Venture-Captain Don Walker to help me with wordsmithing, we have added several much-needed changes that we think will improve your experiences in Pathfinder Society play.

Most notably, the following changes will go into effect on August 16 when Season 4 kicks off at Gen Con:

  • We added three new races to character creation for all players to choose from: aasimar, tengu, and tiefling.
  • Scenarios and sanctioned module now have one unified set of rules for applying Chronicle sheets to pregenerated characters.
  • Added all hardcover rulebooks to the Core Assumption for GMs and advised that GMs can refer to the Pathfinder Reference Document for rules from any books they don’t own.
  • Updated text so GMs are now allowed to take boons when they are offered on a Chronicle sheet.

There are quite a few more changes not mentioned above, so keep an eye on the Pathfinder Society General Discussion messageboard, where we’ll be posting a complete list of changes from version 4.1 to 4.2.

As for other changes to Pathfinder Society play, over the past 6 months, I have taken a keen interest in various things that don’t fit Golarion thematically or that cause confusion with power imbalance in the context of the Pathfinder Society Organized Play campaign. I have talked with players that frequent the messageboards, as well players at the various conventions I have attended. I have discussed the topics below with Venture-Captains and Venture-Lieutenants, as well as with members of Paizo’s design and development teams. While some of these might work well in a home game (and I have some players that use them in my home game), they simply are not a good fit for organized play.

With that said, the following archetypes and equipment are being removed from Pathfinder Society Organized Play as legal options effective August 16, 2012:

Archetypes

Gravewalker Witch (Ultimate Magic 84)
Master Summoner (Ultimate Magic 80)
Synthesist Summoner (Ultimate Magic 80)
Undead Lord Cleric (Ultimate Magic 32)
Vivisectionist Alchemist (Ultimate Magic 20)

Equipment

Arcane bonded items must be listed as Always Available (thus, no firearms)

Added to the Additional Resources on June 20:

No Large or larger firearms available for purchase at any point.
Double hackbut (Ultimate Combat 138)
Culverin (Ultimate Combat 138)

Obviously, these changes do not reflect every problem, or cover every potential problem, in the Pathfinder Society, and we will continue to monitor, discuss, and evaluate material as it affects the format and as new material is released. We do not intend actions like this to be a regular occurrence. We did not make these changes lightly and recognize that many of you will feel like this is either too much or too little or somewhere in between. But I feel that these changes are necessary for the health and well-being of the campaign.

With that said, I understand the time investment and care put into a character’s background and the planning that goes along with making sure the character fits exactly how you envision him. If you have a character affected by the changes above, I am offering a rebuild along the following guidelines:

  • You may rebuild any class levels affected, to levels of other classes as necessary. (For example, if you have a 10th-level character with one level of rogue and nine levels of the synthesist summoner archetype, you may rebuild the nine summoner levels into any other class or another summoner archetype).
  • You may retrain any feats that directly apply to the changes above as necessary.
  • You may sell affected equipment for the full price paid when you purchased them (as listed on past Chronicle sheets).

However you feel about these changes, I ask that you remain respectful of the feelings of others when commenting below. We are a community and we all know players who probably have a beloved character affected by the changes above. Please keep discourse civil and appropriate.

I look forward to seeing folks at the show and am looking toward a bright future for the campaign. I sincerely appreciate everyone who provided feedback, whether it was for the changes to the Guide or the options being removed above, in working together to make our organized play the best it can be for the player base and GMs. Feel free to pull me aside at Gen Con to chat about any or all of the above changes.

Mike Brock
Pathfinder Society Campaign Coordinator

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2/5

2 people marked this as a favorite.

Reading over the "gunslingers aren't so bad if you enforce all the restrictions around their actions" posts... maybe it is the idea that I have to spend most of my GM time/effort catering to micro-managing one player's actions instead of tending to the needs of the rest of the players that rubs me the wrong way.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Jiggy wrote:
LazarX wrote:
Derwalt wrote:
LazarX wrote:
The limit I enforce on tables is ONE...ONE free action per round. So no matter how you slice it, you can't reload 8 times in one round.
So... No archers at your table either LazarX?
Taking arrows from your quiver doesn't need a separate action, it's part of the attack action.
Drawing ammunition is a free action.

When was the last time you called out drawing each arrow from your quiver as a separate declared action while you firing your multi-shot?

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Whiskey Jack wrote:
Reading over the "gunslingers aren't so bad if you enforce all the restrictions around their actions" posts... maybe it is the idea that I have to spend most of my GM time/effort catering to micro-managing one player's actions instead of tending to the needs of the rest of the players that rubs me the wrong way.

You shouldn't have to micro manage your gunslinger once you've made it clear as to how he's supposed to operate. Tracking things like expenditures is part of player responsibilities.

Grand Lodge 5/5 Venture-Captain, Arizona—Phoenix aka TriOmegaZero

LazarX wrote:
When was the last time you called out drawing each arrow from your quiver as a separate declared action while you firing your multi-shot?

An irrelevant question when the point is that you are not holding everyone to the limit of one free action if you allow archers to draw more than one arrow a round.


LazarX wrote:
The limit I enforce on tables is ONE...ONE free action per round. So no matter how you slice it, you can't reload 8 times in one round.

"You can perform one or more free actions while taking another action normally."

One or more = minimum 2

Also, by doing so, touch spells with material components now take two rounds to use, as you can't prepare the spell components and make the free touch.

Here's a list of spells you've crippled:

Touch spells with Material/Focus/DivineFocus components:

Hide from Animals
Scorching Ash Form
Miasmatic Form
Gaseous Form
Air Bubble
Lend Judgment
Lend Judgment, Greater
Abstemiousness
Lover's Vengeance
Displacement
Tongues
Tongues, Communal
Light
Keen Senses
Darkness
Deeper Darkness
Aid
Air Walk
Align Weapon
Barkskin
Blight
Death Ward
Delay Poison
Dispel Chaos
Dispel Evil
Dispel Good
Dispel Law
Goodberry
Hide from Undead
Imbue with Spell Ability
Magic Fang
Magic Stone
Magic Vestment
Magic Weapon
Mark of Justice
Pass without Trace
Poison
Regenerate
Resist Energy
Rusting Grasp
Sanctuary
Shillelagh
Snare
Spell Immunity
Spell Immunity, Greater
Spell Resistance
Virtue
Water Walk
Wind Walk
Wood Shape
See Through Stone
Protection from Energy
Hibernate
Shield the Banner
Bestow Grace
Blessing of the Salamander
Bloody Claws
Brand
Brand, Greater
Bristle
Cast Out
Corruption Resistance
Nature's Exile
Righteous Vigor
Sacrificial Oath
Ward the Faithful
Weapon of Awe
Bestow Grace of the Champion
Pernicious Poison
Rapid Repair
Sky Swim
Stalwart Resolve
Air Walk, Communal
Delay Poison, Communal
Magic Siege Engine
Protection from Energy, Communal
Resist Energy, Communal
Spell Immunity, Communal
Spell Immunity, Greater Communal
Water Walk, Communal
Replenish Ki
Delay Disease
Wrathful Mantle
Sanctify Corpse
Heroic Fortune
Plane Shift
Stolen Light
Harrowing
Dancing Lantern
Weaponwand
Sacred Bond
Mage Armor
Protection from Arrows
Protection from Arrows, Communal
Changestaff
Find the Path
Magic Aura
Sympathetic Vibration
Fly
Spellcasting Contract, Lesser
Spellcasting Contract
Spellcasting Contract, Greater
Malediction
Spellstaff
Hairline Fractures
Skeleton Crew
Infernal Healing
Infernal Healing, Greater
Infernal Healing
Infernal Healing, Greater
Gorum's Armor
Fabricate Bullets
Astral Projection
Astral Projection, Lesser
Gilded Whispers
Curse Water
Bless Water
Daemon Ward
Sequester
Petulengro's Validation
Residual Tracking
Penumbra
Healing Thief
Bullet Shield
Evolution Surge, Leser
Evolution Surge
Evolution Surge, Greater
Siphon Magic
Banish Seeming
Raise Animal Companion
Touch of Slime
Touch of Fatigue
Mark of Blood
Rejuvenate Eidolon, Lesser
Rejuvenate Eidolon
Rejuvenate Eidolon, Greater
Sharesister
Touch of the Sea
Transmogrify
Black Mark
Old Salt's Curse
Acute Senses
Jump
Natural Rhythm
Tireless Pursuers
Anthropomorphic Animal
Greensight
Cloak of Shade
Freedom of Movement
Spider Climb
Spider Climb, Communal
Share Language
Share Language, Communal
Mask Dweomer
Mask Dweomer, Communal
Ablative Barrier
Polymorph
Polymorph, Greater
Root
Decompose Corpse
Allfood
Refuge
Call Construct
Draconic Reservoir
Shadowy Haven
Echean's Excellent Enclosure
Sleepwalk
Accelerate Poison
Mutagenic Touch
Fire Seeds
Ape Walk
True Seeing
Sentry Skull
Animate Dead
Animate Dead, Lesser
Atonement
Ghoul touch
Enemy's Heart
False Vision
Restoration, Greater
Restoration
Restore Eidolon
Kiss of the First World
Nondetection, Communal
Nondetection
Temporary Resurrection
Impart Mind
Resurrection
Raise Dead
Protection from Spells
Crusader's Edge
Darkvision
Darkvision, Greater
Darkvision, Communal
Arcane Lock
Fire Trap
Stoneskin, Communal
Stoneskin
Awaken
Hallow
Unhallow
Rune of Durability
Illusory Script
Statue
Sculpt Corpse
Shield of Faith
Cat's Grace
Rune of Warding
Sepia Snake Sigil
Rope Trick
Glyph of Warding
Glyph of Warding, Greater
Temporal Stasis
Secret Page
Create Treasure Map
Cursed Earth
Kinetic Reverberation
Continual Flame
Masterwork Transformation
Passwall
Phantom Trap
Lockjaw
Enemy's Heart
Transfer Tattoo
Genius Avaricious
True Resurrection
Reincarnate
Protection from Chaos
Protection from Evil
Protection from Good
Protection from Law
Protection from Chaos, Communal
Protection from Evil, Communal
Protection from Good, Communal
Protection from Law, Communal
Magic Circle against Evil
Magic Circle against Chaos
Magic Circle against Good
Magic Circle against Law
Life Bubble
Slipstream
Bear's Endurance
Bull's Strength
Submerge Ship
Foresight
Reinforce Armaments
Reinforce Armaments, Communal
Resistance
Snow Shape
Euphoric Tranquility
Blood Biography
Ant Haul
Ant Haul, Communal
Invisibility
Named Bullet
Named Bullet, Greater
Rest Eternal
Obscure Object
Neutralize Poison
Eagle's Splendor
Owl's Wisdom
Fox's Cunning
Half-blood Extraction
Aboleth's Lung
Gentle Repose
Water Breathing
Stone Shape

You can no longer use many spells to counterspell if they have components, since you need a free action to make the spellcraft check to ID the spell. Haste/Slow, Bane/Bless, Chill Metal/Heat Metal, Crushing Despair/Good Hope, etc.

If you guided your mount with your knees, you can't speak or fast dismount. A druid can't speak if he handles his animal companion. Disarm someone and they're effectively silenced.

You can only draw one piece of ammunition, so no more iterative bow attacks, no flurry of shuriken, no quickdrawn daggers. Repeating crossbows are crippled.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
LazarX wrote:
Jiggy wrote:
LazarX wrote:
Derwalt wrote:
LazarX wrote:
The limit I enforce on tables is ONE...ONE free action per round. So no matter how you slice it, you can't reload 8 times in one round.
So... No archers at your table either LazarX?
Taking arrows from your quiver doesn't need a separate action, it's part of the attack action.
Drawing ammunition is a free action.
When was the last time you called out drawing each arrow from your quiver as a separate declared action while you firing your multi-shot?

Doesn't matter if he declared it.

At your table, archers can fire one single arrow per round and cannot talk at all.

At your table, casters can't cast spells that have material components and verbal components, since that's two free actions. Or touch spells with verbal components. No more Shocking Grasp at your table!

Warriors can't cry out a warcry when pulling out their weapons, since drawing the weapon as part of amove is a free action, as is shouting out war cries.

Your table is a lovely example of why limiting the number of free actions to such a low number is an objectively BAD idea. You're trying to nerf one single build but are doing it in a way that hides that fact and in the process actually screws over a ton of characters in ways you did not imagine. "One" is not a "reasonable limit" in any sense of the phrase.

But you probably won't enforce your One Free Action Limit for anyone but the guy you wanted to nerf anyways, as it usually happens with these sort of artificial limits.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Again, Free actions that are already built into other actions don't need to be moderated. such as taking out components for spellcasting, arrows and bolts, or shuriken.

It's the Free Actions which are separate discrete maneuvers that need to be moderated. Reloading a fire arm is a separate discrete action which is not part of shooting it.

A lot of this is just common sense. Calling out a short phrase isn't an issue. Reciting the Gettysburg Address as a "free action" is something to be called on.

Grand Lodge 4/5

Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
Whiskey Jack wrote:
Reading over the "gunslingers aren't so bad if you enforce all the restrictions around their actions" posts... maybe it is the idea that I have to spend most of my GM time/effort catering to micro-managing one player's actions instead of tending to the needs of the rest of the players that rubs me the wrong way.

I hate to break it to you, Jack, but that's part and parcel of being a GM. You're expected to enforce all the limitations and micromanage players that aren't policing themselves. This is especially true with new (ish) rules where the player may not be familiar with the limitations.

Whether its reloading firearms, controlling an animal companion, trying to use 4 hands in a round (no joke, had this happen this weekend), or one of a thousand other rules in the game, part of your job as GM is to make sure all the rules are being followed.


LazarX wrote:
Free actions that are already built into other actions don't need to be moderated. such as taking out components for spellcasting, arrows and bolts, or shuriken.

Why is drawing an arrow while shooting different from reloading a barrel while shooting? They're both free actions that are done as part of another action.

LazarX wrote:
It's the Free Actions which are separate discrete maneuvers that need to be moderated. Reloading a fire arm is a separate discrete action which is not part of shooting it.

I see no difference between reloading a barrel and reloading a crossbow.

LazarX wrote:
Reciting the Gettysburg Address as a "free action" is something to be called on.

Already covered in the rules: "Speaking more than a few sentences is generally beyond the limit of a free action."

I think rather than making broad game-changing rules, you might be better served by simply not playing at (or running) tables with gunslingers.

The Exchange

well I'm sad I don't get to master summoner at gencon. that archetype needed to go though, it's completely bonkers. I LOVE summoning, I come prepared with statblock cards for my summons, and I perform my actions quickly and I know what is going on.

Some people take 2-3 minutes to rapidshot a guy, I wouldn't want one of those players playing master summoner; 15 minute turns aren't fun for anyone.

Many of the most powerful spells in the 5-10 range are just summoning dudes.

Honestly the summoner class is an issue in and of itself, for it's ability to break the action economy. I do wish that unsummoning the Eidolon could be performed by the Eidolon so that the "summon monster SLA" would actually get to do things, but meh.

I think it's funny that people hate on synth, it was a pretty sweet 1-2 level dip for sure, but was in a similar power vein to many other classes.

now, time to rebuild heh

Liberty's Edge

I like the changes! Great job Mike and Mike. Thanks for paying attention to the fan base.


2 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Really sad we lost the vivisectionist, and I would like to hear why, from a mechanical standpoint, they are unbalanced. If they aren't, could we please have some other archetype of the alchemist that has sneak attack instead of bombs? That was an amazing idea, and I hate to see it go.

Sovereign Court

Hi

As much as I hate gunpowder in this Fantasy setting, how about Summoners training their Eidolons to reload their guns?

Thanks
Paul H

Grand Lodge 4/5

Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
Azazyll wrote:
That was an amazing idea, and I hate to see it go.

I'm not speaking from any inside knowledge here, but I wouldn't expect to see that. It was removed from Pathfinder Society, but I doubt the sneak attack ability was the issue (I could be wrong).

The problem with getting another alchemist archetype that gets sneak attack is that it requires development time and pages in a print book when the feature you're requesting already exists in an archetype. It may not be legal for Pathfinder Society anymore, but I doubt it will be worth Paizo's development time to re-invent the wheel on this one.

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Maps Subscriber
Arcanis Sinacra wrote:


Some people take 2-3 minutes to rapidshot a guy, I wouldn't want one of those players playing master summoner; 15 minute turns aren't fun for anyone.

Four hour con slot. Six players plus a GM. GM needs ~ an hour for briefing, box text, encounter descriptions, etc. That leaves 180 minutes for 6 players to do all of their interactions with the adventure.

30 minutes average "focus" time per player.

Assume at least 2/3 of your individual time is going to be spent in combat, barring builds at the table that trivialize combat.

That leaves about 20 minutes per player in their combat turns. Average of five combats in season 0-3 adventures, right?

That means that each combat you should get about 4 minutes of focus time. Average combats seem to be 3-4 rounds. That means your turns better be 30 seconds if you want to have time to chat up the NPCs, interact with the other players, etc. Think during other people's turns. Make your suggestions quick and succinct. Get group-think time early in the scenario to talk about how to work together.

(Time analysis here part of my "make my tables faster" analysis I've been doing to improve my GMing, but it's relevant to player timing as well.)

2/5

While it was nice to see the pre-gen chronicle rules for scenarios and modules condensed and unified, they are still vague on one key point. They say if you use a pre-gen of higher than 1st level you can either apply it to a brand new PC or hold it "until his character reaches the level of the pregenerated character". Is the character referred to as "his character" (a) a newly created PC (just saving the chronicle to apply later), or (b) any other of their PCs?

Grand Lodge 4/5

Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
bigwave wrote:
While it was nice to see the pre-gen chronicle rules for scenarios and modules condensed and unified, they are still vague on one key point. They say if you use a pre-gen of higher than 1st level you can either apply it to a brand new PC or hold it "until his character reaches the level of the pregenerated character". Is the character referred to as "his character" (a) a newly created PC (just saving the chronicle to apply later), or (b) any other of their PCs?

If it's the first Chronicle for the character, I'd say "A." If it's the second or later Chronicle, then it should be "B."

Grand Lodge 5/5

Ryan Bolduan wrote:
Obviously the tongue in cheek nature of my response did not translate well in my post.

Don't worry Ryan, I picked up on it at least..


Azazyll wrote:
Really sad we lost the vivisectionist, and I would like to hear why, from a mechanical standpoint, they are unbalanced. If they aren't, could we please have some other archetype of the alchemist that has sneak attack instead of bombs? That was an amazing idea, and I hate to see it go.

My guess is that it was the flavor of it.

Maybe it had something to do with the idea that everyone takes it for sneak attack, and forgets all the other abilities.

Grand Lodge 4/5

4 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

Blocking a Gunslinger or any other class from getting his full iterative attack by limiting the free action reload is simply wrong. Doubly so when you make a point of allowing the Archer to do it. Blocking the rediculous amount of Free Actions done by some builds is perfectly fine, but at the very least, every class should get their full iterative attack. Simply put, it wouldn't be there if it wasn't meant to be used.

Scarab Sages

3 people marked this as a favorite.
LazarX wrote:

Again, Free actions that are already built into other actions don't need to be moderated. such as taking out components for spellcasting, arrows and bolts, or shuriken.

It's the Free Actions which are separate discrete maneuvers that need to be moderated. Reloading a fire arm is a separate discrete action which is not part of shooting it.

A lot of this is just common sense. Calling out a short phrase isn't an issue. Reciting the Gettysburg Address as a "free action" is something to be called on.

And here you give away the game and admit to what others are saying. You claim you allow only one free action a round. Yet here you admit you are CHOOSING to moderate Certain free actions to just one a round and not all. A free action is a free action is a free action. You can not claim that some do not count. Free Action is a clearly defined game term. You are trying to sneak in a back door house rule to nerf a rule you do not like. It is wrong and a clear violation of the PFS guidelines.

4/5

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Society Subscriber
Azazyll wrote:
Really sad we lost the vivisectionist, and I would like to hear why, from a mechanical standpoint, they are unbalanced. If they aren't, could we please have some other archetype of the alchemist that has sneak attack instead of bombs? That was an amazing idea, and I hate to see it go.

My guess is because of its potential when used as a dip for other melee builds. Throw 2 levels of vivisectionist on top of a barbarian and now you've got access to feral mutagens (stacks with rage) and enlarge person extracts. It gets to be pretty powerful.

Dark Archive

4 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Maps Subscriber

Vivisectionist's problem is inherent in the name of the archetype. Live dissection is not flavor they wanted to leave in the campaign.

Not difficult, people.


Quote:
You can perform one or more free actions while taking another action normally. However, there are reasonable limits on what you can really do for free, as decided by the GM.

Sounds like there's room for a table GM to limit Gunslingers' reloading if he wants to. "Only one free action" is bunk but reloading a gun 4 times is something a GM might reasonably limit. You can argue that it's kind of unfair but if the gunslinger is trivializing combat it's probably the best thing for everybody's fun. Maybe limit them to one free reload and one swift. They can get off 6 shots in the first round and two thereafter.

Also don't forget the -4 from double-shooting. (Incidentally, Weapon Cords couldn't actually let a gunslinger get off extra shots each round, even if you can reload with a dangling gun. You only get one swift action and you'd need to drop and regrab both guns.)

Liberty's Edge 5/5

Azazyll wrote:
Really sad we lost the vivisectionist, and I would like to hear why, from a mechanical standpoint, they are unbalanced. If they aren't, could we please have some other archetype of the alchemist that has sneak attack instead of bombs? That was an amazing idea, and I hate to see it go.

As with the other banned archetypes, its a flavor thing that just doesn't fit within the PFS campaign.

The idea of cutting up and experimenting on living creatures is a bit squicky to be honest.

Liberty's Edge 5/5

LazarX wrote:

Again, Free actions that are already built into other actions don't need to be moderated. such as taking out components for spellcasting, arrows and bolts, or shuriken.

It's the Free Actions which are separate discrete maneuvers that need to be moderated. Reloading a fire arm is a separate discrete action which is not part of shooting it.

A lot of this is just common sense. Calling out a short phrase isn't an issue. Reciting the Gettysburg Address as a "free action" is something to be called on.

You can do two move actions in a round, why only 1 free?

As I said before, I can certainly understand limiting the number of free actions in a round based on what the free action actually is.

Such as reloading a gun. You are talking about several mini-actions of grabbing your bullet, powder horn, uncapping the powder horn, pouring powder into your muzzle, dropping your bullet in, and tamping them.

So it makes sense that you could probably only do that once or twice a round. I might even go so far as to say three or four.

But restricting to 1 free action a round as you arbitrarily define a free action is probably too restrictive.

It is of course your table, but I'd be wary playing at your table with any characters that depend on free actions.

2/5

Jonathan Cary wrote:
I hate to break it to you, Jack, but that's part and parcel of being a GM.

No kidding? I thought I could GM and not have to know/enforce rules. :-)

My point was more about the amount of time a GM gives each player in the game... that "special needs" players can eat up more time/attention (which detracts from other players' experience of the game)... maybe my wording led you to believe I didn't think it should be part of my "job", but that is certainly not the case.

Liberty's Edge 5/5

Grick wrote:


LazarX wrote:
It's the Free Actions which are separate discrete maneuvers that need to be moderated. Reloading a fire arm is a separate discrete action which is not part of shooting it.

I see no difference between reloading a barrel and reloading a crossbow.

Reloading a Crossbow entails two, maybe three discreet mini-actions.

Prime the string, recover a bolt from your quiver, and drop the bolt into the slot appropriately, and then hoist the crossbow to your shoulder or adjust it at your hip for aiming and shooting purposes.

Reloading a firearm entails many more mini-actions. See above for what those are. If using cartridges, then yes, you reduce the number of mini-actions required, but you still have to tamp the cartridge, something you don't have to do with a crossbow.

Grand Lodge 4/5

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Andrew Christian wrote:
LazarX wrote:

Again, Free actions that are already built into other actions don't need to be moderated. such as taking out components for spellcasting, arrows and bolts, or shuriken.

It's the Free Actions which are separate discrete maneuvers that need to be moderated. Reloading a fire arm is a separate discrete action which is not part of shooting it.

A lot of this is just common sense. Calling out a short phrase isn't an issue. Reciting the Gettysburg Address as a "free action" is something to be called on.

You can do two move actions in a round, why only 1 free?

As I said before, I can certainly understand limiting the number of free actions in a round based on what the free action actually is.

Such as reloading a gun. You are talking about several mini-actions of grabbing your bullet, powder horn, uncapping the powder horn, pouring powder into your muzzle, dropping your bullet in, and tamping them.

So it makes sense that you could probably only do that once or twice a round. I might even go so far as to say three or four.

But restricting to 1 free action a round as you arbitrarily define a free action is probably too restrictive.

It is of course your table, but I'd be wary playing at your table with any characters that depend on free actions.

Yup, technically any GM is within their right to limit free actions to one. In that case when you get a class who ability to do its job is dependant on a certain number of free actions, make sure you tell them so.

A dual-weilding weapon-corded Gunslinger can get 6 attacks off a round, at between level 3 and 5 then adding iterative depending on whether he wants masterwork and scrounges every last penny. They are also taking major negatives for doing so. I agree this is silly, but not obstructive. Especially when archers can build for about the same with less money, no chance of misfires, and several feats that do not work with guns.

Your regular Gunslinger (like mine) is only ever going to get his iterative attacks.

Limiting free attacks to the extent several people are talking about is going to encourage 'cheesy' builds just to be viable.

Grand Lodge 4/5

Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
Whiskey Jack wrote:
Jonathan Cary wrote:
I hate to break it to you, Jack, but that's part and parcel of being a GM.

No kidding? I thought I could GM and not have to know/enforce rules. :-)

My point was more about the amount of time a GM gives each player in the game... that "special needs" players can eat up more time/attention (which detracts from other players' experience of the game)... maybe my wording led you to believe I didn't think it should be part of my "job", but that is certainly not the case.

Fair 'nuff. The Intarwebs are bad about carrying context. I feel your pain, but my point remains that it's not just gunslingers that are "special needs" children. Educate your players, make them realize you're not going to let them slide on enforcing the rules, and they'll eventually get to the point they police themselves (hopefully).

Liberty's Edge 5/5

Clint Blome wrote:
Blocking a Gunslinger or any other class from getting his full iterative attack by limiting the free action reload is simply wrong. Doubly so when you make a point of allowing the Archer to do it. Blocking the rediculous amount of Free Actions done by some builds is perfectly fine, but at the very least, every class should get their full iterative attack. Simply put, it wouldn't be there if it wasn't meant to be used.

I agree with this.

Gunslingers on a DPR basis don't become broken in comparison to the archer, even when considering dual-wielding pistols.

Dual-wielding pistols are at -4 to hit each.

If you make that double-barreled dual-wielders they are at -8 to hit if they shoot both barrels a round with a single action.

Things don't get broken until you start letting that dual-wielder reload both barrels of both pistols multiple times.

The maximum number of shots someone could take with double-barrel dual-wielding is 10. But the shots would be at -8/-13/-18. Even touch AC is really difficult to hit with -13 and -18 to hit. So figure maximum of 4 shots per round are going to be effective.

Grand Lodge 4/5

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

Hey Andrew, it's almost like we've discussed this at length before :P

Liberty's Edge 5/5

Clint Blome wrote:
Hey Andrew, it's almost like we've discussed this at length before :P

Huh, go figure!

Shadow Lodge 5/5 ⦵⦵ Venture-Lieutenant, California—San Francisco Bay Area North & East aka thistledown

I think I'm missing something here - even at 12th level, gunslinger gets 3 attacks with main hand from BAB, 1 attack with off from two-weapon fighting and 1 attack with off from improved two-weapon fighting. A two-barrel or a pepperbox lets you shoot more without reloading, but not more attacks. I don't see how you'd get above 5 attacks per turn.

Grand Lodge 5/5

thistledown wrote:
I think I'm missing something here - even at 12th level, gunslinger gets 3 attacks with main hand from BAB, 1 attack with off from two-weapon fighting and 1 attack with off from improved two-weapon fighting. A two-barrel or a pepperbox lets you shoot more without reloading, but not more attacks. I don't see how you'd get above 5 attacks per turn.

With a distinctly creative reading of the rules for a double-barrelled pistol, which state:

Pistol, Double-Barreled: This pistol has two parallel barrels; each barrel can be fired independently as a separate action, or both can be shot at once with the same action. If both barrels are shot at once, they must both target the same creature or object, and the pistol becomes wildly inaccurate, imparting a –4 penalty on each shot.

This has been interpreted to mean that on a full attack, each and every attack you make fires 2 shots.

My interpretation is that you can fire each barrel as a standard action, both barrels as a standard action, or take your iterative attacks normally*, but what do I know?

*(Since they're all part of one 'full attack action' - to my way of thinking, each shot is not a separate and discreet action. In my mind, you get one extra shot, kind of like Manyshot with a -4, but that's all.)

Grand Lodge 4/5

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
PRD wrote:

Pistol, Double-Barreled: This pistol has two parallel barrels; each barrel can be fired independently as a separate action, or both can be shot at once with the same action. If both barrels are shot at once, they must both target the same creature or object, and the pistol becomes wildly inaccurate, imparting a –4 penalty on each shot.

Bolded for importance.

Grand Lodge 4/5

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Ninjaiguana wrote:
My interpretation is that you can fire each barrel as a standard action, both barrels as a standard action, or take your iterative attacks normally, but what do I know?

I don't think that's a common interpretation, though it certainly is a reasonable one.

Grand Lodge 5/5

Clint Blome wrote:
Ninjaiguana wrote:
My interpretation is that you can fire each barrel as a standard action, both barrels as a standard action, or take your iterative attacks normally, but what do I know?
I don't think that's a common interpretation, though it certainly is a reasonable one.

Aha, you caught my edit. Edited for clarity on my position. ^_^

And I will say my interpretation is the stance I'll be taking should any gunslinger sit down at my table, since there's room for ambiguity in the wording. Expect table variation. :D

Grand Lodge 4/5

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

Ninja, I could certainly live with that.

Shadow Lodge

I've skipped this last page, so something may have changed. I want to say first that I like the additional races, and DO agree with the three classes becoming illegal for play. I do have an issue witht he Cleric's Undead Lord though, for multiple reasons. And I mean this respectfully to everyone.

I do not understand why it was pulled, either for mechanical or flavor reasons. It seems very arbitrary to me, as in the case of flavor, there are other existing and legal ways to do the exact same thing. Machanically, it is slightly underpowered from similar concepts/classes, and has never been an issue I've ever heard mentioned.

On the other hand it is one of the few options for the Cleric class to specialize with an Archtype, and Cleric class has the absolute fewest options in that area. It is also one of the only two options that allow the Cleric to have a pet, and the only one that allows it at 1st level, where the vast majority of PFS play happens, (between character death, new characters, etc. . .). The Animal Domain kicks in at 4th level, and there is the option for a familiar, but that's a little different. It feels that this one was picked for no real reason, as any arguement I can think of or have heard suggested has multiple other examples that do the same thing (and usualy worse) but are not affected.

Again, if it is in relation to flavor, why isn't the Oracle of Bones, the Witch class, the Necromancer Wizard, and etc. . . also banned? If it is the pet, why is the Summoner, the Druid class, and anything else that has a pet also banned? Again, if it is the flavor, the exact same thing can be done with a Cleric or Oracle flavor-wise, and nearly so mechanically, so what's the difference?

Shadow Lodge 4/5 Venture-Captain, California—San Francisco Bay Area South & West aka JohnF

Andrew Christian wrote:
Things don't get broken until you start letting that dual-wielder reload both barrels of both pistols multiple times.

Which would appear to be explicitly prohibited by RAW:

PRD wrote:
Lightning Reload (Ex): At 11th level, as long as the gunslinger has at least 1 grit point, she can reload a single barrel of a one-handed or two-handed firearm as a swift action once per round. If she has the Rapid Reload feat or is using an alchemical cartridge (or both), she can reload a single barrel of the weapon as a free action each round instead.

That would seem to limit reloads to at most a single reload of one barrel of each weapon during a round (provided the gunslinger was at least eleventh level and has a grit point left; if those conditions aren't met, she may not even be able to achieve that much).

To get the full number of iterative attacks on multiple rounds a gunslinger should be using a pepperbox weapon.

Shadow Lodge

I apologize for the continued tangent, but can someone walk me through (or just link) the thought process for reloading dual barrel pistol in each hand with weapon cords so you can attack 10 times (or even 3) ... I'm not getting it and I like to know what the corner cases are if they come up.

Thanks!

Paizo Employee Franchise Manager

2 people marked this as a favorite.

For those interested in debating the intricacies of gunslingers' potential attacks per round and the specific builds and assumptions required to pull off such tacts, please start an individual thread for that topic so that this blog discussion doesn't get too far off track. Thanks!

Liberty's Edge 5/5 Venture-Lieutenant, Alaska—Anchorage aka Dragnmoon

Mark Moreland wrote:
For those interested in debating the intricacies of gunslingers' potential attacks per round and the specific builds and assumptions required to pull off such tacts, please start an individual thread for that topic so that this blog discussion doesn't get too far off track. Thanks!

There are plenty of them in the Rules and Advice Sections.

Shadow Lodge 5/5

Andrew Christian wrote:
Such as reloading a gun. You are talking about several mini-actions of grabbing your bullet, powder horn, uncapping the powder horn, pouring powder into your muzzle, dropping your bullet in, and tamping them.

While some of your points are good, I'll just mention this: The only way to reload a firearm as a free action is if you're using alchemical cartridges. So you're grabbing the cartridge dropping it into the muzzle and tamping it down. Pretty much the same amount of mini-actions as the crossbow.

Contributor

Removed a couple of posts. Keep it civil and on-topic please.

Liberty's Edge

Hakken wrote:
Ricky Bobby wrote:

I hate to be the %&^%%# who's quoting cheesy lines from the past, but seriously people, can't we all get along?

Paizo opens up three races - that is three more than anyone honestly thought were going to be opened.

They took away some classes that should have been taken away. Sucks for some people, but kudos to Paizo for that - that was a tough call I'm sure.

Those people get an ENTIRE REBUILD of all those levels; sure, a stat allocation would be nice, and maybe should be allowed...but at this moment, it's not...yes, that might suck, but those who have to deal with it, will do so...the rest of us who don't, let's all just stop belittling others about it, yes?

For those that say munchkins are evil, selfish, soul-sucking imps who are hurting others...please, just stop. Those arguments make no sense. This is a game...a team game and an individual game...we are all going to play what we want, whether its min-maxed well to overpower yourself, min-maxed poorly to gimp yourself, or straight up balanced. There...is...no...right...way. Should you RP your stats, sure...but don't question how I 'might' play the game because I show up with two sixes in my stat block. That only makes you look the fool, not me.

So seriously, there is some good stuff here, and very little for anyone to be in too much pain over. Those that have to rebuild will mourn for a time, surely, and we should let them....and you know what? Maybe even assist them by throwing out actually helpful ideas for their soon-to-be-dust synthesists or master summoners or gravewalkers, etc! Wow, helpful? Huh, how novel.

In any case, it's nice to see some changes, and game on.

OK, stepping down from my pedestal to go sit in the crowd again.

look at the cheesy builds people make with gunslingers, archers, zen archers, druids and some fighters. Some of them are MORE powerful than the four they banned. Shouldn't they be banned also?

I have to disagree with you a bit on the cheesiness of those builds vs a synth summoner. I have....had a synth summoner build that was virtually undefeatable. I stopped playing him at 7th level because there got to be no challenge and therefore no fun. I'm not saying the builds I've seen with those classes aren't cheesy, but they are easier to shut down then a synth summoner.

Dark Archive 3/5

Andrew Christian wrote:
LazarX wrote:
Hakken wrote:
what paizo needs to do is come out with a rule limiting how many "free" action reloads you can do in 1 round. reloading a double barrel pistol 8 times (four for each hand --utilizing weapon cords) is cheese extreme.
The limit I enforce on tables is ONE...ONE free action per round. So no matter how you slice it, you can't reload 8 times in one round.

I agree that there has to be a limit on free actions.

But limiting it to one seems really, really excessive.

I'm going to have to agree because this hurts more than just gunslingers.

My Crossbowman has the feat chains to reload his Heavy Crossbow as a free action, which the rules specifically state means he can utilize Rapid Shot, iterative attacks, haste attacks, and all that jazz. It also mean that he can eventually utilize the Snap Shot feat chain to threaten.

So I only get two shots a round, despite all the feat investment with rulings saying otherwise, because of a choice to limit free actions to one a round?

Don't get me wrong; I'm as unhappy with some of the gunslinger cheese (and concerned about the lack of proper upkeep/cost management) as the next guy. It's even more frustrating to play said Crossbowman at a table with a Gunslinger. But I don't think this kind of table rule is a good idea.

5/5 ⦵⦵ Venture-Agent, Colorado—Colorado Springs aka Hakken

Clint Blome wrote:
Blocking a Gunslinger or any other class from getting his full iterative attack by limiting the free action reload is simply wrong. Doubly so when you make a point of allowing the Archer to do it. Blocking the rediculous amount of Free Actions done by some builds is perfectly fine, but at the very least, every class should get their full iterative attack. Simply put, it wouldn't be there if it wasn't meant to be used.

part of the problem with the gunslinger as I said is the double barrel pistol. Every time you give the gunslinger an extra attack--they actually get two.

gunslinger takes two weapon fighting--get two extra attacks instead of one. Party hasted--everyone else gets one extra attack, gunslinger gets two. at 6th level when anyone else would get 1 extra attack--gunslingers get two.

the double barrel pistol breaks the gunslinger.

archers get to fire two shots at one time only ONCE--and they have to take a specific feat just to do that one thing. they cant buy a bow for 1750 that automatically fires two arrows each time they fire it.

Liberty's Edge 5/5

Hakken wrote:
Clint Blome wrote:
Blocking a Gunslinger or any other class from getting his full iterative attack by limiting the free action reload is simply wrong. Doubly so when you make a point of allowing the Archer to do it. Blocking the rediculous amount of Free Actions done by some builds is perfectly fine, but at the very least, every class should get their full iterative attack. Simply put, it wouldn't be there if it wasn't meant to be used.

part of the problem with the gunslinger as I said is the double barrel pistol. Every time you give the gunslinger an extra attack--they actually get two.

gunslinger takes two weapon fighting--get two extra attacks instead of one. Party hasted--everyone else gets one extra attack, gunslinger gets two. at 6th level when anyone else would get 1 extra attack--gunslingers get two.

the double barrel pistol breaks the gunslinger.

archers get to fire two shots at one time only ONCE--and they have to take a specific feat just to do that one thing. they cant buy a bow for 1750 that automatically fires two arrows each time they fire it.

But to fire both shots of a double barrel as a single action, its -4 to hit.

And Gunslingers need a couple feats before they can really be good firing into combat. It will be about 5th level before they have precise shot if that soon. So that's another -4 to hit (assuming the builds that seem to get Dex 20, Improved Init, and the trait for Init +2) it may be 7th level before they can get precise shot.

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