Guide 4.2 and Changes to Pathfinder Society Organized Play

The Lord, he can still be a cleric of Urgathoa. He just loses his Corpse Companion, and the Command Undead feat, in exchange for a second domain. It's a very minor change.

You can still have a backstory, plans, and artwork.

If you get that bent out of shape losing a skeleton companion, I can't imagine what kind of a tissy you'd throw if your character were actually, you know, killed off or something.

His skeleton companion was part of the character, he wasn't a cleric of Urgathoa, but the speaker of the dead. He would give a body to one of his elders and in exchange for servitude and protection. Not wanting to get into a long drawn out explanation of the character, my minor of a point is that i molded class feature and person into one. Now instead of having "The Lord" Osirian cleric, I'll have an Osirian cleric of urgathoa. Now instead of a Lord of the Undead, he's another necro-fetish cleric.

While I think the new layout is good, with chapter breaks happening on page breaks, I'm not a fan of the increased amount of artwork. It brings it in-line with other Paizo publications, but it is killer on ink. I will just have to remember to copy the text and format it for my own printing.

I find that grayscale plus "fast" print quality helps a fair bit while still being very legible/usable.

Thanks for the tip Jiggy. :)

Whoa! As indicated, as long as players are still required to bring the material for their characters, then my concern about GMs having to bring everything does not apply.

Your clarification and my response crossed paths in the etherwebs. No harm, no foul.

His skeleton companion was part of the character, he wasn't a cleric of Urgathoa, but the speaker of the dead. He would give a body to one of his elders and in exchange for servitude and protection. Not wanting to get into a long drawn out explanation of the character, my minor of a point is that i molded class feature and person into one. Now instead of having "The Lord" Osirian cleric, I'll have an Osirian cleric of urgathoa. Now instead of a Lord of the Undead, he's another necro-fetish cleric.

Would a wand of animate dead be evil? Can a wand look like a spine, legs, & ribs, with a skull on top?

I too was concerned about needing to know how a tiefling gunslinger with feats from X, Y, & Z sources worked. The player's clarification helped. :)

To those irritated about the core assumption, and being worried about having to buy books or some kind of device, or not having a printer etc.

There will be, I suppose, some times when you are up a creek, but how often has anyone been at a table and you actually did not have access to the books via hard copy or on some kind of a device?

I see the concern, I just think that that situation represents the exception, not the rule. I never carry books to games myself. Even when I have access to a hardcopy I still use the prd and cut and paste the pertinent info and then run off my laptop.

Making sure I'm reading this properly: "Retirement & Beyond" p27.

So if a player was at 11.2 before playing Ruby Pheonix Tournament, which would put them at 12.2, it will now instead put them at 12.0 even?

I'd have loved to see clustershot go, but that's just me...

Nothing like ruining a table when the ranger can pretty much end the encounter on his init.

Making sure I'm reading this properly: "Retirement & Beyond" p27.

So if a player was at 11.2 before playing Ruby Pheonix Tournament, which would put them at 12.2, it will now instead put them at 12.0 even?

Correct, and you'd also lose lose 15,716 gold, 2 prestige off the final module reward (Assuming you got all 3 exp)

Justin Riddler wrote:

Making sure I'm reading this properly: "Retirement & Beyond" p27.

So if a player was at 11.2 before playing Ruby Pheonix Tournament, which would put them at 12.2, it will now instead put them at 12.0 even?

Correct, and you'd also lose lose 15,716 gold, 2 prestige off the final module reward (Assuming you got all 3 exp)

This change is not retroactive, correct? I don't need to go edit the chronicle sheets on the players who just did this two weeks ago?

No, it is not retroactive unless specifically called out.

One thing I've never understood is why no day job for GMs. Maybe I'm a corner case of someone who frequently GMs (more than I play anyway) but likes the idea of day jobs and builds it into most characters. The boons for GMs is nice thought. I think I understood denying them on sceanarios were there is a good and a bad (no risk no reward), but I never really cared for that part either. Glad it's gone. The other changes I'm mostly neutral on, I did have a friend who was barbarian/ vivisectionist alchemist, but I'm sure he'll come up with a clever swap.

Jereme

First, a suggestion:

In Pathfinder Society, clerics, including Undead Lords, have to have a deity. Whether 'the Lord' ever uttered the name Urgathoa, if he was a legal PFS character, he worshipped the Pallid Princess.

If you want a character touched by the divine, but not a priest of a deity, it sounds like your character might be better represented as an oracle of bones.

You could choose to raise a skeleton or zombie servant, and you could choose to be negative energy affiliated. Or you could choose to Command Undead.

You might consider the Consumed or Haunted curses.

Point is, you can still make that character work, and you wouldn't need to continue carrying around a holy symbol of Urgathoa any longer.

Michael Brock wrote:

No, it is not retroactive unless specifically called out.

What if it is someone's 3rd character (they have played and GM'd Eyes of Ten already) and they don't have another 12+ retirement option?

Would they still lose all the XP from a module played at 11.x if it took them over 12?

Read carefully young grasshopper:

If a character reaches 12th level by playing a sanctioned module, any XP beyond 33 points are lost prior to starting the Tier 12 scenarios/events.

Unless another tier 12 event comes along, no they wouldn't lose it. They don't lose it until they start the Tier 12 event.

bugleyman wrote:

Where does it advise a GM has to bring every hardcover, or even buy them for that matter?

Buy the hardcovers? I didn't get that idea. But it's not entirely clear from just reading the Guide V4.2 that the requirement that the GM have access to all the rulebooks is satisifed by the PRD; previous rulings have been quite explicit that a printout from the PRD is not a substitute for a printed page from a watermarked PDF.

From the blog entry, though, it appears that this is no longer the case.

I'm still digesting the changes, but I love the new look. From the cover all the way to the end, the Guide looks like a full-blown Paizo product now.

I also really like the new Quick Start Guide. I'm gonna keep a couple of copies in my PFS notebook to give to folks who have never played PFS but are interested. I do wish my name and e-mail address wasn't stamped on the Quick Start Guide, but that's easily fixed with a Sharpie.

Hmm

As someone with 4 Synths (not optimised stats), I'm understandably not a happy bunny. (13 chars in total).

Admittedly, one of them was just down to stat maths, but I've never used him.

The others were just down to concepts.

Sian - the Poledancing Synth/Paladin of Shelyn. Originally an arcanist converted to Paladinhood to fight the Evil she sees in the world

Lu Shu Tian. Someone who worships the spirits of her ancestors (not Gods). Ancestors 'grant' her abilities, so she wears her 'brand' with pride.

That sort of thing.

So, we can change our stats if the changes radically alter our chars?

Lastly, can't understand disallowing these archetypes whilst opening up far more powerful races from the latest splat book.

Paul H

So, is it legal to play the "tieflings and other races" stuff? Can i get my Tiefling of tengu descent so he looks like a scorched birdman? Singefeather! Caw and maw, that charge trait, dragon style n natural attacks!

Does a mighty fist amulet effect nat attacks?

Does a mighty fist amulet effect nat attacks?

No, you need to already have them.

xD

In the Guide there is a listing to a Risen Rune shirt but I do not see a link to it on the Paizo site. Is the shirt actually going to be made? and if so do we know when it will be announced?

I imagine it will go on sale around or after Gen Con, to give attendees first chance at purchasing it.

Just got a chance to give this a good once-over...looks very, very nice.

Got a chuckle out of the art used for the chapter 7 heading. Any veiled messages? :)

In the Guide there is a listing to a Risen Rune shirt but I do not see a link to it on the Paizo site. Is the shirt actually going to be made? and if so do we know when it will be announced?

I've made a couple, here's to hoping they're similar in style with the ones I got! ;)

Love everything I'm seeing so far. Just scanning the book shows how much you guys listen to even the little things that have come up on the message boards. The first 2 I noticed were the 1st level retraining and that the age rules now prevent the ludicris ranges some posters were bringing up.

Also Ty you for making MW transformation one of the carry over spells this will be a huge boon and makes the newest version of the heirloom weapon trait viable again.

thoynan wrote:

Does a mighty fist amulet effect nat attacks?

No, you need to already have them.

xD

I'm the Grammar Nazi, and I approve of this message.

OK, here's a bit of a niche question concerning the pre-2nd level rebuild rules.

I have a PC that was played for 3 Scenarios and leveled up prior to the current guide. His fourth Chronicle was earned via "We Be Goblins" and has not been played since (I realized I didn't care for the build/where it would go, so set him aside).

So, since the character hasn't actually been played at 2nd level, can I rebuild him still? Or since he has had a fourth scenario chronicle, can he not be rebuilt?

Chris Mortika wrote:

The Lord, he can still be a cleric of Urgathoa. He just loses his Corpse Companion, and the Command Undead feat, in exchange for a second domain. It's a very minor change.

You can still have a backstory, plans, and artwork.

If you get that bent out of shape losing a skeleton companion, I can't imagine what kind of a tissy you'd throw if your character were actually, you know, killed off or something.

His skeleton companion was part of the character, he wasn't a cleric of Urgathoa, but the speaker of the dead. He would give a body to one of his elders and in exchange for servitude and protection. Not wanting to get into a long drawn out explanation of the character, my minor of a point is that i molded class feature and person into one. Now instead of having "The Lord" Osirian cleric, I'll have an Osirian cleric of urgathoa. Now instead of a Lord of the Undead, he's another necro-fetish cleric.

You could easily come up with a story about how you lost your connection to your companion. Something you did angered the spirits. Yeah, it might not be as unique as The Lord once was, but as others asked, what'd you do if he died?

Sleep on it, consider the possibilities, then proceed.

OK, here's a bit of a niche question concerning the pre-2nd level rebuild rules.

I have a PC that was played for 3 Scenarios and leveled up prior to the current guide. His fourth Chronicle was earned via "We Be Goblins" and has not been played since (I realized I didn't care for the build/where it would go, so set him aside).

So, since the character hasn't actually been played at 2nd level, can I rebuild him still? Or since he has had a fourth scenario chronicle, can he not be rebuilt?

I was actually wondering something similar. I have a character I had applied a GM credit to, then a year or so ago we had played Cult of the Ebon Destroyers and I made a copy and played him at 8th lvl. I didn't care for how he played, so haven't played him since. He's got 4 xp, but I've never actually played him, just a high level copy. Is that legal for rebuild? I know characters that are just GM credit can be changed until actually played, but the 8th lvl version was only one possibility of how he could be built too. Just curious. I played him as a pacifist, and could easily change that if no rebuild allowed.

If a fourth xp has been applied to the character, it can not be rebuilt.

Take Boat wrote:

So do full-level rebuilds get to change their ability scores or are we going to have a bunch of ex-synthesists running around with hilariously dumped physical scores?

No, people do not get to change ability scores.

Sadness.

Michael Brock wrote:

Take Boat wrote:

So do full-level rebuilds get to change their ability scores or are we going to have a bunch of ex-synthesists running around with hilariously dumped physical scores?

No, people do not get to change ability scores.

Sadness.

Keep reading Roshan... He overturned the ruling...

Michael Brock wrote:

Take Boat wrote:

So do full-level rebuilds get to change their ability scores or are we going to have a bunch of ex-synthesists running around with hilariously dumped physical scores?

No, people do not get to change ability scores.

Sadness.

You are allowed to change ability scores.

If a fourth xp has been applied to the character, it can not be rebuilt.

I imagined that was the case.

Also, Mike, thank you for being so on top of all the questions being asked in this thread.

bugleyman wrote:

One change I've not seen discussed is the expansion of the core assumption, which seems like a big deal. Unlike players, who know ahead of them what they will need, GMs either have to bring ALL of the hardbacks or some kind of electronic device. Either way, the GM buy-in has greatly increased. We need more, not fewer, GMs.

We're not blindsiding GMs with content they don't know they're going to need. Every scenario going forward is going to include a sidebar listing all sources required to run the adventure, and every time we use a rule from somewhere other than the Core Rulebook or Bestiary, we'll call out where it comes from. When GMs prep the scenarios, they can either make notes in their printout of the adventure explaining how a spell or feat works, bookmark the necessary page in their hardcover books, print out the relevant pages from a PDF copy of the book, or print out the necessary rules from the free Pathfinder Reference Document.

There's been a lot of feedback in the last few years for more content from non-core material, and we have tried to accomodate that request. The result, however, was needing to reprint content from everything but the Core Rulebook and Bestiary, and while that was really handy for GMs at the table, it added a lot of work on our end of things, especially when really complex classes needed to be fully explained or entire monsters needed to be reprinted. Such redundant rules increased the word-count the editorial team needed to develop, lay out, and edit, as well as the number of pages GMs needed to print, yet it didn't increase the resources to spend on that extra work or those extra bits of paper and ink on the user's end.

For several years now Pathfinder Adventure Paths and Modules have not reprinted material that was available on the PRD and while some have complained, most people we've heard from have appreciated the extra room that opened up in each respective adventure as content wasn't being repeated both in the...

While I'm all about the reasoning behind this change and really love the idea that we'll know what sources we'll need to access while prepping I do have one itty bitty concern. How will this play when that moment comes where that extra GM is needed for a con/game day/etc. just before showtime and said GM gets blindsided with ARG material in that 30 minute prep time and either can't get a hardcover book (I know, unlikely in most venues but possible) and/or the various digital resources. I only ask because...I've had it happen :).

Anywho, like the rest of it :) .

How will this play when that moment comes where that extra GM is needed for a con/game day/etc. just before showtime and said GM gets blindsided with ARG material in that 30 minute prep time and either can't get a hardcover book.

I imagine they'll have to beg/borrow/steal from someone that has the scenario prepped, or a player that brought the relevant material to the convention, or the event organizer (who's probably a crazy enough fan to own all the stuff anyway), or find a wifi access point and check it quick enough to jot down some notes, or check someone's PDF copy on their tablet (or netbook)...

Michael Meunier wrote:

How will this play when that moment comes where that extra GM is needed for a con/game day/etc. just before showtime and said GM gets blindsided with ARG material in that 30 minute prep time and either can't get a hardcover book.

I imagine they'll have to beg/borrow/steal from someone that has the scenario prepped, or a player that brought the relevant material to the convention, or the event organizer (who's probably a crazy enough fan to own all the stuff anyway), or find a wifi access point and check it quick enough to jot down some notes, or check someone's PDF copy on their tablet (or netbook)...

www.d20pfsrd.com is accessible on most smartphones, to boot.

I have a 3rd level Undead Lord I have to rebuild. As I was working on him today, I had a question.

I can rebuild my undead lord as a cleric. He would still worship the same god (zyphus), same alignment (neutral), have the same domain (undead), same channeling variant (undead), same spells, and even get a undead companion of sorts at 3rd level with lesser animate dead.

So why the ban? Does being a normal cleric somehow make him less "evil" than a UL, even though thier abilities are nearly identical? Is it just flavor text? The mehcanics for the UL (corspe companion) are sound and balanced, and not any more or less evil than a regular cleric build of zyphus. So is this a pure flavor text ban?

I totally get the summoner bans, but am I little unsure on this one, other than being a ban based purely on flavor, and more specificly, flavor text.

Generally speaking, Scarecrow, I agree with you. If I had a suspicion, it' would have to do with the variability of the Corpse Companion, along with the sort of messy mechanics. The party kills a tiger. Can the 6th-level Undead Lord use it to house her Corpse Companion? If so, what stats does it have? (The Undead Lord didn't know what the party was going to run into, so she didn't prepare the stats for a skeletal tiger. The session pauses for a while as the player applies the skeletal template to the tiger stats in the Bestiary and writes them down.)

Remember that your new cleric will have to recast animate dead, lesser every session, at a cost of 25 gp per hit die.

Michael Meunier wrote:

How will this play when that moment comes where that extra GM is needed for a con/game day/etc. just before showtime and said GM gets blindsided with ARG material in that 30 minute prep time and either can't get a hardcover book.

I imagine they'll have to beg/borrow/steal from someone that has the scenario prepped, or a player that brought the relevant material to the convention, or the event organizer (who's probably a crazy enough fan to own all the stuff anyway), or find a wifi access point and check it quick enough to jot down some notes, or check someone's PDF copy on their tablet (or netbook)...

All true, but there are places (like the venue I run two cons a year at) that is a telecommunications/wi-fi deadzone :). Well, there is the computer in the lobby :P.

But yeah, the scenario is highly unlikely that there won't be some way to get to the needed material. I'm just a crazy cultist of the Lord of Pessimism a.k.a Murphy :).

Thank you for making the tengu a playable race. I really appreciate that. It more than makes up for losing my synthesist summoner. :)

If I may... Is there any consideration being put into making kitsune a playable race? That would just make my day. ^^

Thank you for making the tengu a playable race. I really appreciate that. It more than makes up for losing my synthesist summoner. :)

If I may... Is there any consideration being put into making kitsune a playable race? That would just make my day. ^^

Currently, it's playable by boon only. And considering the fact that they just opened up 3 new races, I wouldn't expect more to be opened up anytime soon.

Is there any consideration being put into making kitsune a playable race? That would just make my day.

I wouldn't expect that to happen this year - Kitsune (and Nagaji and Wayang) have only recently shown up on racial boons.

After they've been around as long as Tengu (and Aasimar and Tiefling) have, you might see them more widely available. But making them freely available now would completely devalue the racial boons that are currently needed to play them. While that is also true of the Tengu/Aasimar/Tiefling boons, the players with those boons have had quite some time to get value from them.

stuff

I imagne they would just ask the resident rules expert.

The Absalom dockmaster looked through his telescope and gasped. He began to sweat, fumbled with the signal horn, and blasted a warning to the rest of the dock. Sailors looked up with surprise and trepidation across their faces. Across the horizon an armada of junks sailed through the waters. Circling above each junk was a collection of multicoloured kites, fluttering in the winds. And on the bough of the ships? Tengu. Hundreds upon hundreds of sword-waving, treasure-seeking, loud squawking corvid-blooded adventurers.

Ha! I love these changes.

I think the play experience in Pathfinder Society will have it's fun score increased by +4 as a permanent bonus as a result of these being made. I love the fact that synthesists and master summoners can rebuild and shuffle their stats. I love the fact that my tables most likely have no classes to complain about anymore! (except maybe Antagonise, but hey, small steps)

I'd personally keep Aasimar and Tieflings 'special' as con boons but I am too overjoyed about Tengu becoming mainstream to stop other players getting their celestial and infernal fun. The next step? Complete Tengu! Can we get more avatars now?

Most of all, I'm delighted that the double hackbut is staying in Alkenstar where it belongs. I was pretty critical of this weapon on the boards, and it's great to see that the issue has been examined by the powers-that-be. Everything that seemed odd and broken has had a magnifying glass applied to it. It's a great model of showing how an organised play experience can quickly come up with a listing of what rules shine and which don't.

I love the fact that I can get a boon from GMing. Does this work retroactively?
Great work all round :)

you apparently dont have many gunslingers at your table. I have sit at a couple tables where melee types walk out because they never get to hit anything. gunslingers with high inits basically one shot every mob as it gets to the party.

Hakken wrote:

LazarX wrote:

Hakken wrote:

so my master summoner got banned---but the gunslinger with two dual pistols doing 8 shots a round and about 200 dpr is still allowed. ANd archers who can do 30 damage with every arrow by level 5 are still allowed? Guess the squeaky wheel does get the grease.

I don't know where you're getting the archery from, but that damage figures for the Gunslinger were based on corner rule interpretations on what size gun a character could use.

If so, pay attention to the lines which say to the effect that Firearms of Large or greater size have joined the Synthesist Summoner to extinction.

Pistol, double-barreled 1,750 gp 1d6 1d8 ×4 20 ft. 1–2 (5 ft.) 2 5 lbs. B and P

by just one adventure into 3rd level--a gunslinger can have two of these--giving him 4 attacks a round vs touch ac. with other pluses add in-(grit, clustered shot) etc on top of that. Everytime the gunslinger gets an additional attack by BAB--he actually gets TWO additional shots. double barrel pistols are broken.

it has always been the gunslingers which break our games---basically walking up and one shotting the BBEG.

** spoiler omitted **

Remember we're limited to emerging guns on PFS, so that's just one shot per gun.

unfortunatly double barrel pistols are under the early ones

unfortunatly double barrel pistols are under the early ones

Enforcing all the rules can limit gunslinger dominance. Remember that Rapid Reload has to be taken for each kind of gun, and a single-barrelled pistol is a different kind of gun than a double-barrelled.

what paizo needs to do is come out with a rule limiting how many "free" action reloads you can do in 1 round. reloading a double barrel pistol 8 times (four for each hand --utilizing weapon cords) is cheese extreme.

what paizo needs to do is come out with a rule limiting how many "free" action reloads you can do in 1 round. reloading a double barrel pistol 8 times (four for each hand --utilizing weapon cords) is cheese extreme.

Please break down how one reloads 8 times in one round, given that weapon cords require a swift -- not a free -- action?

Hakken wrote:

what paizo needs to do is come out with a rule limiting how many "free" action reloads you can do in 1 round. reloading a double barrel pistol 8 times (four for each hand --utilizing weapon cords) is cheese extreme.

Please break down how one reloads 8 times in one round, given that weapon cords require a swift -- not a free -- action?

Fire all 4 shots from one gun. Weapon cord to the other, drop the first as free action. Fire and load all 4 from that one. Start with that gun in hand for next round, repeat.

Will Johnson wrote:

Hakken wrote:

what paizo needs to do is come out with a rule limiting how many "free" action reloads you can do in 1 round. reloading a double barrel pistol 8 times (four for each hand --utilizing weapon cords) is cheese extreme.

Please break down how one reloads 8 times in one round, given that weapon cords require a swift -- not a free -- action?

Fire all 4 shots from one gun. Weapon cord to the other, drop the first as free action. Fire and load all 4 from that one. Start with that gun in hand for next round, repeat.

Considering it's a full-round action to untie a weapon cord, I'm assuming it would take a full-round action to tie one on, so are these gunslingers spending the first two rounds of combat tying on their weapon cords to utilize this cheese?