I Drank What? An FAQ on Poison

Thank you very much, I didn't was using poisons all wrong and this made things really clear for me, especially the scenarios.

It is really great to have these types of blogs and have the Paizo staff showing such an active role in the fanbase.

Again its really great seeing some of these fundamentals, that can commonly be mistaken, be addressed.

This is a great help. I look forward to similar blogs.

Wow, poisons actually become viable under these rules. In 3.5 I never thought it was worth using poison because of high cost, usually low save, and difficulty of use.

Thank you.

And I see, there are Alchemyst and Rogue class features able to make them even more deadly.

What did Valeros ever do to you!

Poor guy, being a fighter but regularly failing DC 13 fort saves...

hmm... I didn't know that the subsequent saves should be made on the victims turn.
Good to know!

Poisons fall under the category of afflictions.

Well, sure... The Poison rules (under Afflictions) seem very sure of themselves that all Poisons use the Affliction rules.

Anyhow, good blog post...

Any chance you can also clarify how delay poison works in the above, Jason, if the poison isn't neutralised before the spell wears off?

An FAQ blog entry! Hallelujah! I hope there are many more to come. FAQ! FAQ! FAQ!

This is a great help. I look forward to similar blogs.

+1

I have a question..using your example of greenblood oil which has a duration of 4 rounds, if Valeros goes after the person who inflicted him with the poison in the same round does he still make 2 saves for the poison (Once when getting it, once during his turn) in the same round? By your example it seems he does. If that is the case does that mean he can take the poison damage twice in the same round even though it says 1/round? Does he still have 3 rounds left or does the second save in the 1st round reduce the duration by a round?

If a poisoned character delay's his turn, he must immediately make these saving throws. They are not delayed.

I was surprised by this part...

This is a great blog entry and really helps clarifying a few things. Thanks Jason!

I hope to see more of these. And if you're looking for ideas, a similar blog explaining the details of the grab ability would also be very helpful.

I don't want to sound annoying, but this is the kind of text I would like to see in sidebars, in a future edition of the Core Rulebook... :)
The Core is a big book I know, but this kind of clarifications are pure gold, and should be definitely be featured on the book itself.

I have a question..using your example of greenblood oil which has a duration of 4 rounds, if Valeros goes after the person who inflicted him with the poison in the same round does he still make 2 saves for the poison (Once when getting it, once during his turn) in the same round? By your example it seems he does. If that is the case does that mean he can take the poison damage twice in the same round even though it says 1/round? Does he still have 3 rounds left or does the second save in the 1st round reduce the duration by a round?

his examples seemed to suggest that the once per round is totally separate from the initial save. I'n all his examples Valeros made an initial save then again on Valeros turn.

Thank you! Hoping to see more of these in the future!

I have a question..using your example of greenblood oil which has a duration of 4 rounds, if Valeros goes after the person who inflicted him with the poison in the same round does he still make 2 saves for the poison (Once when getting it, once during his turn) in the same round? By your example it seems he does. If that is the case does that mean he can take the poison damage twice in the same round even though it says 1/round? Does he still have 3 rounds left or does the second save in the 1st round reduce the duration by a round?

He makes a save once when hit and then once on his initiative. Only the save on his initiative counts towards the 4 rounds. Meaning after his second save you have 3 more rounds of greenblood oil.

Why go thru the bother of establishing a whole sub-system for poison saves on the target`s turn (at their choice of beginning or end of turn, bizarrely), which brings up problems like Dragnmoon mentions, only to then have a case where the `Init` of the Poison must once again be tracked separately? (only this time it is based on the target`s original Init, rather than attacker`s)

I think the intention is to stop players from delaying to allow another player to cure him/her. That being said I assume that when a player delays he immediately makes his saves and then he would make his next round of saves on his new initiative.

Thanks for the info. This kind of stuff is great. I also hope to see more of these in the future.

6. If a character is exposed to multiple doses of inhaled and ingested poisons simultaneously, only one save is made at the higher DC. If the save fails, the character is subject to all of the doses, but still only takes the effect once for the failed save

I was wondering what about injected into the bloodstream does it rase the DC or the Damage

I ask because i have a Alchemist with a Syringe Spear from the Pathfinder Armory

This was SUPER helpful - and different from how I was adjudicating poisons.

6. If a character is exposed to multiple doses of inhaled and ingested poisons simultaneously, only one save is made at the higher DC. If the save fails, the character is subject to all of the doses, but still only takes the effect once for the failed save

I was wondering what about injected into the bloodstream does it rase the DC or the Damage

I ask because i have a Alchemist with a Syringe Spear from the Pathfinder Armory

Scenario B should answer your question. Two inflicted applications during the same initiative.

One of the most useful blog posts yet. Very cool!

Any chance you can also clarify how delay poison works in the above, Jason, if the poison isn't neutralised before the spell wears off?

Delay poison simply stops the process in its tracks, but you should still track the order in which new poison is applied to the target. When delay poison ends, all of these initial saves happen in order, then then character must track rounds as outlined above.

Hope that helps

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing

Quote:

If a poisoned character delay's his turn, he must immediately make these saving throws. They are not delayed.

I was surprised by this part...

Why go thru the bother of establishing a whole sub-system for poison saves on the target`s turn (at their choice of beginning or end of turn, bizarrely), which brings up problems like Dragnmoon mentions, only to then have a case where the `Init` of the Poison must once again be tracked separately? (only this time it is based on the target`s original Init, rather than attacker`s)

Unfortunately, because when poisons combine, you can no longer track their durations separately on different initiatives and it is easiest to track on the PCs turn. The wording you refer to is there simply to prevent the "I delay" loophole from skipping a save.

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing

Jason, first - WOW! Thanks for this. Frankly, poison has always been a bit of a quandary wrapped in an enigma for me - regardless of the system.

Second, can I suggest you immediately rip this from the Blog and include it in your next errata for the Core rules. If one is not planned, then plan one. The examples alone are worth half their weight in gold.

Thank you Design Tuesday! So many people have been waiting for this clarification Jason, this will really make several of my players happy (and my monsters). Finally poison is as nasty as it should be, especially with poison DC's ranging from 11 to the mid 20's.

--HemVrock

While I like that poison is now really dangerous, and appreciate the clarifications here, I can't help but laugh at your last comment, regarding neutralize poison.

That spell has become arguably the most worthless of the clerical status healing spells in the game with the changes made to it. I don't think I would ever prepare it, since the probability of it doing any good is so low at lower levels, and heal gets around the poison entirely while healing as well at higher levels.

I could see neutralize poison as a 2nd level spell, maybe. Not a 4th by any stretch of the imagination.

Thanks. The FAQ actually managed to throw me off on what I thought I understood well.

Question:

If a poison requires multiple saves: does each successful save "prevent" the poison's effect for the round - or does it just add to the poison-end-tracking?

Great FAQ! Thanks Paizo people! :)

I got 2 questions, though.

1. How about poison with an onset of let's say 1 minute? The character is poisoned, and fails the save to prevent it. One minute later: Does he get a save against the first time the poison damages him or doesn't he? Before the FAQ, I would have said he gets the save, but then an onset poison would allow one save more than a poison without onset.

2. How exactly does a poison with an initial and a secondary effect work? I know these aren't very common, but I've encountered at least one so far (and I've been playing Pathfinder for less than a year). Here's the poison:

So, how would that one work? Is the initial damage done when the character is poisoned and after 1 round (the onset) the character suffers the secondary effect (unless the Save is made of course)?
Or does the character suffer the initial effect after the onset and the secondary in the following rounds? If yes, does the round with the initial effect count for the duration?

Very good blog entry and exactly the sort of thing I was hoping to see here (though I loved the terrain entries too!).

This is a tiny bit different from what you'd posted previously but I like this better since it makes poisons slightly more nasty.

Thanks for working to make this site the best gaming resource on the 'net.

Brilliant FAQ. I learned something from it, and I thought I had a good grasp on the subject.

More please!

Great FAQ! Thanks Paizo people! :)

I got 2 questions, though.

1. How about poison with an onset of let's say 1 minute? The character is poisoned, and fails the save to prevent it. One minute later: Does he get a save against the first time the poison damages him or doesn't he? Before the FAQ, I would have said he gets the save, but then an onset poison would allow one save more than a poison without onset.

2. How exactly does a poison with an initial and a secondary effect work? I know these aren't very common, but I've encountered at least one so far (and I've been playing Pathfinder for less than a year). Here's the poison:

** spoiler omitted **

So, how would that one work? Is the initial damage done when the character is poisoned and after 1 round (the onset) the character suffers the secondary effect (unless the Save is made of course)?
Or does the character suffer the initial effect after the onset and the secondary in the following rounds? If yes, does the round with the initial effect count for the duration?

1. So, he gets the save when first exposed. If he makes it, the poison ends with no effect. If he fails, he has contracted the poison, but does not take the effect (due to it having an onset, as noted in the onset rules). After a minute (in your example), he saves again and if he fails takes the effect. Poisons with an onset allow for one extra save.

2. A poison with an onset and an initial and secondary effect are tricky, but the way it works is this. You get your first save. Make it and the poison ends. Fail and you've got it, but take no effect yet. After the onset, you make another save. Fail and take the initial effect, make it and check cure to see if it ends. After that first one, its all secondary effect. The onset time is not part of the frequency. Also note if you get multiple doses of a poison with an initial and secondary effect, you can not take the initial more than once as long as the poison is still during its frequency. If it ends and you get exposed again, you can suffer the initial effect again.

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing

Question:

If a poison requires multiple saves: does each successful save "prevent" the poison's effect for the round - or does it just add to the poison-end-tracking?

A successful save, after the first, prevents the effect that round, checks vs the cure, and continues the tracking through the frequency.

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing

A related question, (sorry if I’ve overlooked these rules in the book)…

If a character is unknowingly exposed to a poison, say from a goblet of wine, and makes the saving throws, would the imbiber know the wine is poisoned?

A related question, (sorry if I’ve overlooked these rules in the book)…

If a character is unknowingly exposed to a poison, say from a goblet of wine, and makes the saving throws, would the imbiber know the wine is poisoned?

The rules are silent here, but I think that if the poison never takes effect than the imbiber should not know.

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing

I had always been a bit confused by the Green Prismatic Poison. With an initial effect of death, I've never been sure when the secondary effect and saves to cure would actually come into play.

I had always been a bit confused by the Green Prismatic Poison. With an initial effect of death, I've never been sure when the secondary effect and saves to cure would actually come into play.

That is a bit odd. I am going to look into that and get back to you. I have a suspicion that the effect of that ray will need to change. Looks like it was a left over from an earlier version of the poison mechanics.

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing

Thanks, Jason! As others have said, this was SUPER helpful; damn, I have treated all poisons as if they had an onset (i.e. no effect on the first failed save). I'm really glad the rules on poisons have finally been clarified with your thorough examples (and replies on this thread). :)

Thanks, Jason! As others have said, this was SUPER helpful; damn, I have treated all poisons as if they had an onset (i.e. no effect on the first failed save). I'm really glad the rules on poisons have finally been clarified with your thorough examples (and replies on this thread). :)

Same here I played it as if the effects did not occur until they failed the save on their turn.

--Toxic Vrock Syndrome

How long does poison applied to a weapon last?

Can you sheath it for years, and it's still good when you use it later? Is it all expended on the first successful hit? Can you apply multiple doses so that it lasts multiple hits?

What to do when you extract poison with alchemy? If a PC uses poison in himself, can he get immunity to it?

I had always been a bit confused by the Green Prismatic Poison. With an initial effect of death, I've never been sure when the secondary effect and saves to cure would actually come into play.

Maybe for the hypothetical critter that is immune to death effects but not to poisons?

Quandary wrote:

Quote:

If a poisoned character delay's his turn, he must immediately make these saving throws. They are not delayed.

I was surprised by this part...

Why go thru the bother of establishing a whole sub-system for poison saves on the target`s turn (at their choice of beginning or end of turn, bizarrely), which brings up problems like Dragnmoon mentions, only to then have a case where the `Init` of the Poison must once again be tracked separately? (only this time it is based on the target`s original Init, rather than attacker`s)

Unfortunately, because when poisons combine, you can no longer track their durations separately on different initiatives and it is easiest to track on the PCs turn. The wording you refer to is there simply to prevent the "I delay" loophole from skipping a save.

OK... I guess I´m not sure exactly what the line ´They are not delayed´ means...

If it is not delayed, i.e. Init is not changed, then the Poison Save(s) (if different types) would be made immediately (when the char chooses to delay, on their original Init), and on-going on the ORIGINAL Init order, not the char´s NEW Init? (i.e. a separate Init event to track)
...Or would the Save(s) be made on the original Init, the char takes their Delayed turn without making a new Save, and no new Saves are made until their NEXT turn at the new Init? It just seems like you´re missing a half-sentence or so, ´they are not delayed´ clearly deals with the immediate Saves but isn´t so clear what happens to subsequent ones.

The Poison rules (under Afflictions) seem very sure of themselves that all Poisons use the Affliction rules.

Except for, you know, ones that DON`T, like Cloudkill... 8-/
...should non-Affliction poisons still use any relevant rules, e.g. DC increases for multiple dosages, even if duration, onset, cure, don`t apply to them?

I had always been a bit confused by the Green Prismatic Poison. With an initial effect of death, I've never been sure when the secondary effect and saves to cure would actually come into play.

...It looks like there´s other issues with ´Spell Poisons´ as well... Perhaps that merits a Blog Post Part 2.

Blazej wrote:

I had always been a bit confused by the Green Prismatic Poison. With an initial effect of death, I've never been sure when the secondary effect and saves to cure would actually come into play.

That is a bit odd. I am going to look into that and get back to you. I have a suspicion that the effect of that ray will need to change. Looks like it was a left over from an earlier version of the poison mechanics.

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing

Why not like Black Lotus Extract, except with an immediate onset? (1d6 Con damage per round for 6 rounds)

OK... I guess I´m not sure exactly what the line ´They are not delayed´ means...

If it is not delayed, i.e. Init is not changed, then the Poison Save(s) (if different types) would be made immediately (when the char chooses to delay, on their original Init), and on-going on the ORIGINAL Init order, not the char´s NEW Init? (i.e. a separate Init event to track)
...Or would the Save(s) be made on the original Init, the char takes their Delayed turn without making a new Save, and no new Saves are made until their NEXT turn at the new Init? It just seems like you´re missing a half-sentence or so, ´they are not delayed´ clearly deals with the immediate Saves but isn´t so clear what happens to subsequent ones.

I think it just means they aren't delayed that round.

The "not delayed" aspect is, in fact, pretty wonky.

Example: On Round 1, Seoni (Initiative 16) gets hit with a dose of purple worm poison at Initiative count 14. She fails her initial saving throw and suffers 1d3 ⇒ 1 points of Strength damage.

On round 2, Seoni delays. The poison still affects her on Initiative 16. She fails her save again, and takes another 1d3 ⇒ 2 points of Strength damage. She gets hit with a second dose on Initiative count 14. She fails the save (it is, after all, DC 24, now up to 26) and takes 1d3 ⇒ 3 more points of Strength damage. She chooses to act on Initiative count 10.

Okay. On initiative count 10, what happens? She was already affected by the first dose during Round 2, and I don't imagine she should suffer its affects multiple times in one round. But this is her first turn after getting hit the second time. Does she make a save, only against the second dose? Or does the first dose in her bloodstream somehow protect her from that?

On Round 3, what happens? Does the first dose of poison continue to affect her at Initiative count 16? Is the DC now 26? Or does it affect her now at Initiative count 10? What if she delays again?

Chris - I'd say it makes the most sense to deny the "delay" for the poison the first time the character delays, to avoid ultra-metagamy actions, but otherwise only hit them once per round.

Blave wrote:

2. How exactly does a poison with an initial and a secondary effect work? I know these aren't very common, but I've encountered at least one so far (and I've been playing Pathfinder for less than a year). Here's the poison:

2. A poison with an onset and an initial and secondary effect are tricky, but the way it works is this. You get your first save. Make it and the poison ends. Fail and you've got it, but take no effect yet. After the onset, you make another save. Fail and take the initial effect, make it and check cure to see if it ends. After that first one, its all secondary effect. The onset time is not part of the frequency. Also note if you get multiple doses of a poison with an initial and secondary effect, you can not take the initial more than once as long as the poison is still during its frequency. If it ends and you...

I was about to contest this, but it does work out like that with onset, very strange. The flip side of that is that after the first dose it only takes a single failed save for the next dose to afflict you (no second save to take the initial damage), and from what you said, no onset delay in adding to the frequency/duration.

A poison with a nasty initial effect (and no onset) could get pretty horrible on repeated doses. Those would inflict the initial with each failed save to avoid the affliction.

Say a particularly potent poison has 3 saves before it can be overcome/cured.

Which specific saves count towards that? I don't think the initial save does, because if you make that the poison goes away. You were pretty clear in that the second save at the end of an onset period counts towards the cure. I assume the saves against poison made on your turn all count towards the cure.

But what if I got hit with multiple doses of the poison? Do the initial saves (the ones that could throw off the new dose entirely) count towards curing of prior doses if I make them? Which of the below is correct?

Scenario 1: Poor Valeros is hit by both of a Tarn Linnorm's poisonous bite attacks. He fails his first save (base DC 32) but passes the second. He takes 6d6d acid damage and 1d8 Con drain from having failed the first save. His second save, however, counts as one of his three successes needed to cure ALL the poison in his system. On his turn, he passes his save with a natural 20, getting him 2/3 of the way to being cured. On the Tarn's next turn, it bites twice more, with Valeros failing both saves and taking the poison's effect twice (12d6 acid damage and 2d8 Con drain). This also raises the DC to 36 and increases the duration from 10 rounds to 20 rounds, but since one round is already passed, he has 19 rounds to go. Valeros is in trouble. On Valeros' second turn, he rolls his save against DC 36 and fails, but opts to use his Improved Great Fortitude feat to reroll, and passes. Valeros is now cured of all the poison in his system and is far more wary of the Linnorm's dangerous bite attacks.

Scenario 2: Poor Valeros is hit by both of a Tarn Linnorm's poisonous bite attacks. He fails his first save (base DC 32) but passes the second (DC 34). He takes 6d6d acid damage and 1d8 Con drain from having failed the first save. On his turn, he passes his save with a natural 20, getting him 1/3 of the way to being cured. On the Tarn's next turn, it bites twice more, with Valeros failing both saves and taking the poison's effects twice (12d6 acid damage and 2d8 Con drain). This also raises the DC to 36 and increases the duration from 10 rounds to 20 rounds, but since one round is already passed, he has 19 rounds to go. Valeros is in trouble, though it doesn't last long. On his turn, he fails both saves and takes enough damage and Con drain to kill him.

It might actually be possible to cure someone sooner by pumping them with more poison under one of these interpretations, albeit at great risk.