I Drank What? An FAQ on Poison

Tuesday, March 22, 2011

For quite a while now there has been a bit of confusion on how poison is applied in the Pathfinder RPG. While the application of a single dose is simple enough, the rules allow for the stacking of poisons that causes them to combine into a more powerful effect. There are, unfortunately, some timing issues with these rules that can make poisons a bit tricky to adjudicate during play. Since this issue is a bit more complex than your average FAQ issue, the design team thought it would be a good idea to take a more in depth look at the issue here.

Poisons fall under the category of afflictions. They each have a save, a frequency, an effect, and a cure. At the most simple level, this means that when a character comes into contact with the poison, she gets a save. If the save succeeds, the poison has no effect, regardless of the cure entry. If the saving throw is failed, the character takes the effect and must continue to makes saves, dictated by the frequency, or continue to take the effect with each failed save. The only way to be free of the poison at this point is to meet the conditions of the cure entry, usually one or more successful saving throws (usually consecutively if more than one).

When a character is subject to more than 1 dose of the same poison, things get interesting. Each dose increases the DC by +2 and increases the total duration listed in the frequency by half of the original duration. Due to timing, however, this can make for a rather confusing situation. When does the DC increase apply? When are the saving throws made? When is the duration increased? To keep things simple, use the following guidelines.

1. Whenever a character is exposed to a poison (regardless of method), that character gets a saving throw to negate the poison.
2. The saving throw DC is increased by +2 for every active dose currently affecting the character. Poisons that were cured, have run through their entire frequency, or were negated with a successful initial saving throw do not increase the DC.
3. The character must make a saving throw against every poison affecting him on his turn, but may make the saving throw at any point during his turn. If a poisoned character delays his turn, he must immediately make these saving throws. They are not delayed.
4. Unless the poison has an onset time, the character takes the effect of the poison every time he fails a saving throw against the poison, even when additional doses are inflicted.
5. The total duration of the poison listed in the frequency only increases by half the original duration and only when the initial saving throw against a dose is failed. If the initial saving throw is made, the duration is not increased.
6. If a character is exposed to multiple doses of inhaled and ingested poisons simultaneously, only one save is made at the higher DC. If the save fails, the character is subject to all of the doses, but still only takes the effect once for the failed saving throw. If the save succeeds, the character avoids all of the doses.
7. Finally, if the character is exposed to a poison that is similar, but not the same, such as having a slightly different frequency or DC, it is treated as a different affliction that is tracked separately, even if it has the same name or other identical entries.

So, keeping these rules in mind, let's take a look at a few scenarios using poison and how they are resolved. In all cases, the character is exposed to greenblood oil, an injury poison, with a DC of 13, a frequency of 1/round for 4 rounds, an effect of 1 Con damage, and a cure entry of 1 save.

Scenario A: Valeros is hit by an arrow coated in greenblood oil. He fails the DC 13 Fort save and takes 1 point of Con damage. At the end of his turn, he fails a saving throw against the poison and takes 1 more point of Con damage. Before his second turn, he gets hit again and must attempt a DC 15 Fort save (because 1 dose is already affecting him). He fails this save as well, which deals another point of Con damage, increases the save DC he must make each round to 15, and extends the total duration by 2 rounds.

Scenario B: Valeros is hit by a pair of arrows coated in greenblood oil, during the turn of one enemy archer. He fails the first DC 13 Fort save and takes 1 point of Con damage. He then must make a DC 15 Fort save for the second arrow. He makes this save and suffers no ill effect. On his turn, he must make a DC 13 For save (since only 1 dose of the poison is in effect). He makes this save and takes no damage, as the poison ends. If he is hit again on the next turn, his save would reset to DC 13.

Scenario C: Valeros is hit by a pair of arrows coated in greenblood oil. He fails the DC 13 Fort save and takes 1 point of Con damage. He then must make a DC 15 Fort save for the second arrow. He fails this save and takes 1 point of Con damage. On his turn, he must make another DC 15 Fort save, which he fails, causing him to take yet another point of Con damage. On the next turn, the archer fires an arrow coated in special greenblood oil poison, with a DC of 20. It hits poor Valeros, who fails the save and now must track the two poisons separately (since they are not identical). To add to his misery, another arrow coated in ordinary greenblood oil poison hits him as well, forcing him to make a DC 17 Fortitude save, which he also fails, increasing the total duration to 8 rounds (1 of which has passed). Valeros is in trouble.

As you can see, poison is a deadly business. Monsters that can use injury poison, such as spiders and centipedes, should not be taken lightly. Best to stock up on a scroll or two of neutralize poison, or better yet, a wand.

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer

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Good point with the multiple saves but the fact that you have to make a save show true immunity is not the intent with delay poison. Mechanically the poison is only suppressed while the spell is active.

Neutralize poison needs to be explained though since it does not take multiple doses of the same poison into account.

The Exchange

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Where does it say that you have to make a save with Delay Poison? It doesn't,
Either it's Immunity, or it's not. If the subject is immune then the poison does no damage and there's no reason to track anything. If they're immune there's no save to make or fail. Or if there were a save they could voluntarily fail it with no repercussion because they're immune.

Liberty's Edge

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Paizo Charter Superscriber; Pathfinder Companion, Pathfinder Accessories, PF Special Edition Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Seraphimpunk wrote:
Where does it say that you have to make a save with Delay Poison? It doesn't, Either it's Immunity, or it's not.

It says it in the spell...

Delay Poison wrote:
Any poison in its system or any poison to which it is exposed during the spell’s duration does not affect the subject until the spell’s duration has expired.

Right there, it says once the spell expires any poisons exposed to during the spell go into effect.

You keep focusing on the immunity word but ignoring the rest of the spell.

The Exchange

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Because that same phrase can be interpreted to mean " any poison in it's system or any poison which it is exposed to during the spells duration does not affect the subject ( because they are immune). Once the spell expires any poison in its system before the spell was cast resumes effecting it. "

All that phrase does is confuse the afforementioned Immunity.
Of course the subject won't be affected by any poison in their system: they're immune for the duration of the spell. Once the spell is over they won't be immune any more.

It's worded badly, that's why it was questioned soon after the FAQ post was released. I'm rechallenging the ruling to ask if the devs realize that by making them immune to poison in the first sentence of the spell, they negate the second sentence.

It's not clear. And neither is how to neutralize the poison with the spell neutralize poison while a delay poison is in effect.


maybe it's badly worded,
but it explicitly says they are Immune to Poison (for the duration the spell),
and it explicitly says that when the spell ends they are affected by any poisons in their system.
Immunity is nowhere intimated to remove poisons from your system, so I don't see how the second sentence is negated.

(the not affected by poisons for the duration part is superfluous with Immunity, but hey, superfluous never killed anybody)

The Exchange

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Immunity to poisons itself is not well defined, all I can find on it is that you ignore the ability damage from poisons. It never says that someone immune to poisons still has to make saves vs. poison.

Quote:
immunity (ex or su): A creature with immunities takes no damage from the listed sources. Immunities can also apply to afflictions, conditions, spells ( based on school, level, or save type)! And other effects. A creature That is immune does not suffer from these effects, or any secondary effects that are triggered due to an immune effect.

To me that sounds like when you're immune to poison you don't take damage from it. And if you've got neutralize poison up you're immune temporarily. Any poison that was in your system before the spell effects you once the spell is over: which was miraculously delayed by the spell delay poison, and doesn't require you to keep track of every poison you were exposed to , yay less to remember ! Simplified rules! Things that work as expected!


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From earlier in the thread showing intent wrote:

Delay poison simply stops the process in its tracks, but you should still track the order in which new poison is applied to the target. When delay poison ends, all of these initial saves happen in order, then then character must track rounds as outlined above.

Hope that helps

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing


Jason Bulmahn wrote:
Blazej wrote:
I had always been a bit confused by the Green Prismatic Poison. With an initial effect of death, I've never been sure when the secondary effect and saves to cure would actually come into play.

That is a bit odd. I am going to look into that and get back to you. I have a suspicion that the effect of that ray will need to change. Looks like it was a left over from an earlier version of the poison mechanics.

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing

Answer is...?


I have a question...

Does the frequency of a poison start ticking on the round in which the poison was administered? In other words, I am stuck at the end of Round 1 by a poison with a frequency of 6 rounds, does the poison end at the end of Round 6?


As far as I can tell, it will tick 6 times including the initial tick, meaning it won't last a full 6 rounds (unless you poisoned yourself). What's important is to get the 6 ticks, so the poison would end at the end of your turn on round 6, not the end of the round (although there's no significant difference between the two since the tick wouldn't occur again until the next round anyway).

The reason I say this is because of poisons like blue whinnis. It doesn't make sense to have to save twice against 1d3 hours of unconscious— the first save would be for the 1 con, the second would be for the unconscious, and then the poison's over (2 ticks).


Thanks JAson this is great help.

For scenario A. If you suffer from 2 doses of poison, you make one save DC+2 at each round. If you successfully roll (suppose there is only one save cure) do you cure one dose (removing the DC+2 and the extended duration) or do you cure both doses ?


Joesi wrote:

As far as I can tell, it will tick 6 times including the initial tick, meaning it won't last a full 6 rounds (unless you poisoned yourself). What's important is to get the 6 ticks, so the poison would end at the end of your turn on round 6, not the end of the round (although there's no significant difference between the two since the tick wouldn't occur again until the next round anyway).

The reason I say this is because of poisons like blue whinnis. It doesn't make sense to have to save twice against 1d3 hours of unconscious— the first save would be for the 1 con, the second would be for the unconscious, and then the poison's over (2 ticks).

I think you're wrong. The first save when poison is applied doesn't count towards the 6 round in that case.

The counting only starts at the character's initiative. So if i understand well, a poison with a frequency of 6 rounds, provided that all saves have been failed, could do 7 times the damege. Once when poison is applied and 6 additional rounds.


Yeah I see both as possible options to interpret it, and I very much considered —if not favored— your interpretation of it as well. I believe I made a post asking for clarification about this.

My point still rests though — it's a bit odd to save against 1d3 hours of unconsciousness again if you've already failed a save against 1d3 hours of unconsciousness 1 round ago. What would happen? you remain unconscious despite succeeding your save, or would you miraculously be no longer unconscious?

Same sort of thing would apply with Drow Poison.


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I've been discussing in my group regarding poisons and while the FAQ gives an explanation, it doesn't fully make sense when reading the rulebook.

Quote:
However, if there is still poison active in you when you are attacked with that type of poison again, and you fail your initial save against the new dose, the doses stack. This has two effects, which last until the poisons run their course.

Link

The rules seem to imply that doses stack IF and after you fail the second initial save, in which case the initial DC of the second arrow with greenblood oil would not increase, but the save made during Valeros' turn (using scenarios above) would.

Reading the rules and not the FAQ shouldn't it be like this?
Arrow 1: DC 13 (failed save)
Arrow 2: DC 13 (failed save)
Valeros turn: DC 15.

and not like this:

Arrow 1: DC 13 (failed save)
Arrow 2: DC 15 (failed save)
Valeros turn: DC 15.


Leonal wrote:

I've been discussing in my group regarding poisons and while the FAQ gives an explanation, it doesn't fully make sense when reading the rulebook.

Quote:
However, if there is still poison active in you when you are attacked with that type of poison again, and you fail your initial save against the new dose, the doses stack. This has two effects, which last until the poisons run their course.

Link

The rules seem to imply that doses stack IF and after you fail the second initial save, in which case the initial DC of the second arrow with greenblood oil would not increase, but the save made during Valeros' turn (using scenarios above) would.

Reading the rules and not the FAQ shouldn't it be like this?
Arrow 1: DC 13 (failed save)
Arrow 2: DC 13 (failed save)
Valeros turn: DC 15.

and not like this:

Arrow 1: DC 13 (failed save)
Arrow 2: DC 15 (failed save)
Valeros turn: DC 15.

The DC increases based on how many doses are active in your system. Essentially, DC = BaseDC + 2*ActiveDoses. So after Arrow 1, ActiveDoses increases from 0 to 1, so DC = 13 + 2*1 = 15 for Arrow 2.

Of course, you don't stack the effects (increasing the duration) unless the save for Arrow 2 is also failed.


In that case, the bolded text about "initial save" really doesn't need to be there.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I'm with Leonal on this one. I'd thought that Ultimate Equipment said that if you were affected currently by one poison, and then got hit again by the same poison, you made the initial save against the second dose of poison at its original DC, then if you failed the second initial save at the base DC your new ongoing DC was increased by +2. But this post makes it sound like every new save is at +2 for each ongoing poison already in your system. Hrmm.

I mean, I like it the way this post says better, though. Because sometimes the DCs of poisons are so low, that people or creatures nearly always make them. But if you can fire flurries of arrows coated with poison and a creature gets an unlucky roll and fails one, then his next is at +2, and now we're getting somewhere.


Pathfinder Adventure Subscriber

My biggest issue with the Scenario A (ignoring the additional arrow for the sake of argument), is that Valeros fails a save when he is initially hit, takes Con damage, then fails another save on his turn and takes Con damage.

OK fine, but there are two things here that I think make all of this terribly confusing and hard to accept:

1) Valeros is hit twice in the same round by a poison that states it has a frequency of 1/round.

2) Valeros (lets just say he fails all his saves after being hit by just one arrow) will be hit a total of 5 times by a poison that is supposed to hit 1/round for 4 rounds.

Again, if that's the way the Devs are saying it should play out - fine, it is clear what happens.
But it seems a very natural assumption to think that: if no onset means that failing the very first save will cause a character to immediately suffer the effects of the poison, then it should count as the 1st round of that poison's duration (because it's having it's effect, and now it has done it once in the round, so it's effects for this round are over, period). So much so, that it's very odd the FAQ nor any of the Dev posts don't just come right out and say "Yes, 'no onset time' actually means 'no onset time AND you get nailed by the poison one additional time than the frequency/duration would imply'."

Maybe another way to say it is - if the first, immediate save to ward off the poison makes you take the poison's effects if you fail the save - then why isn't it counted as your first failed frequency save??

It would be nice to have this for the sake of clarity.

Shadow Lodge

Jason Bulmahn wrote:
Blave wrote:

Great FAQ! Thanks Paizo people! :)

2. How exactly does a poison with an initial and a secondary effect work? I know these aren't very common, but I've encountered at least one so far (and I've been playing Pathfinder for less than a year). Here's the poison:

** spoiler omitted **

So, how would that one work? Is the initial damage done when the character is poisoned and after 1 round (the onset) the character suffers the secondary effect (unless the Save is made of course)?
Or does the character suffer the initial effect after the onset and the secondary in the following rounds? If yes, does the round with the initial effect count for the duration?

2. A poison with an onset and an initial and secondary effect are tricky, but the way it works is this. You get your first save. Make it and the poison ends. Fail and you've got it, but take no effect yet. After the onset, you make another save. Fail and take the initial effect, make it and check cure to see if it ends. After that first one, its all secondary effect. The onset time is not part of the frequency. Also note if you get multiple doses of a poison with an initial and secondary effect, you can not take the initial more than once as long as the poison is still during its frequency. If it ends and...

I hate to bring up an old topic, but I'm a bit confused by "it's all secondary effect."

Vishkanya Sleep Venom (Advanced Race Guide):

Injury; save Fort DC 10 + 1/2 the vishkanya's Hit Dice + the vishkanya's Constitution modifier;
frequency 1/round for 6 rounds;
initial effect staggered for 1d4 rounds,
secondary effect unconsciousness for 1 minute;
cure 1 save.

Does this mean that:
A - if the initial save is failed, the target is staggered for 1d4 rounds, but has to make a second save in round 2 and fall unconscious if that fails too? Or
B - does it mean that after the initial save fails, the target is staggered for 1d4 rounds and doesn't have to save again until the end of that time (and then if that one fails, is ko)?

Obviously, if the first save is a success, there's no effect - that goes without saying.

A is clearly stronger for the poisoner, since two failed saves in a row means the target is staggered for 2 rounds and then KO for 10 rounds, but I want to make sure I'm understanding this correctly before it comes up in PFS (possibly as early as this Friday).

Thanks in advance for any help!


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Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Jason Bulmahn wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:
Is it possible to suffer from multiple doses of contact poison simultaneously? Say a poisoned door knob has 3 doses of black lotus extract, for example.

An item can only be coated in one dose of injury or contact poison. If you apply a second one, the first one is removed. No walking around with the super poisoned drippy glove.

Gross.

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing

In that case, I will just have to get a separate, distinct poisoned object for each finger, such as barbed rings. Beware the deadly handshake of five dooms!

Grand Lodge

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concerro wrote:
From earlier in the thread showing intent wrote:

Delay poison simply stops the process in its tracks, but you should still track the order in which new poison is applied to the target. When delay poison ends, all of these initial saves happen in order, then then character must track rounds as outlined above.

Hope that helps

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing

Quote:
The subject becomes temporarily immune to poison. Any poison in its system or any poison to which it is exposed during the spell's duration does not affect the subject until the spell's duration has expired. Delay poison does not cure any damage that poison may have already done.

So, reading the spell text, nowhere does it say that it stops the counter on the poison. It says the subject is immune to poison. So, without a relevant update, it looks like the duration of any poison the subject of a delay poison is subject to continues ticking, so only a poinson inflicted near the end of the duration has any effect?

Either there is a very important line missing from the spell text, or the spell doesn't do what it says it does.


So there's a bit of a difference between the way poison is pitched here and how it was originally pitched to me, and I'm a bit confused.

Taking scenario one, Valeros is hit with a poisoned arrow and fails a dc 13 fortitude save. According to the example he immediately takes 1 point of constitution damage and then, failing another save on his own turn, takes 1 more point of constitution damage.

This differs from the way I was taught. I was told that the DC 13 fortitude save made upon being hit with the arrow decides whether or not you've been afflicted by the poison for x number of rounds, but no damage is immediately done. Assuming you fail this roll and are now poisoned, on your turn you roll the DC 13 fortitude save again, and if you fail once more you take 1 point of constitution damage.

The second example makes sense to me because it limits the damage a poison can cause in 1 round or 6 seconds. Otherwise you're effectively getting hit twice with the effects of the poison in what is defined as 1 of y rounds according to the duration of the poison.

Was the guy wrong in this case? Or is there something I'm missing that makes both explanations essentially the same?


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Ragendar wrote:

So there's a bit of a difference between the way poison is pitched here and how it was originally pitched to me, and I'm a bit confused.

Taking scenario one, Valeros is hit with a poisoned arrow and fails a dc 13 fortitude save. According to the example he immediately takes 1 point of constitution damage and then, failing another save on his own turn, takes 1 more point of constitution damage.

This differs from the way I was taught. I was told that the DC 13 fortitude save made upon being hit with the arrow decides whether or not you've been afflicted by the poison for x number of rounds, but no damage is immediately done. Assuming you fail this roll and are now poisoned, on your turn you roll the DC 13 fortitude save again, and if you fail once more you take 1 point of constitution damage.

The second example makes sense to me because it limits the damage a poison can cause in 1 round or 6 seconds. Otherwise you're effectively getting hit twice with the effects of the poison in what is defined as 1 of y rounds according to the duration of the poison.

Was the guy wrong in this case? Or is there something I'm missing that makes both explanations essentially the same?

The difference is whether or not the poison has an onset. For example:

Black Lotus Extract
Type poison (contact); Save Fortitude DC 20
Onset 1 minute; Frequency 1/round for 6 rounds
Effect 1d6 Con damage; Cure 2 consecutive saves

If Valeros touches a doorknob covered in Black Lotus Extract, he must make a DC 20 Fort save. If he fails, nothing happens for 1 min (10 rounds). After 1 min, the poor sot makes another DC 20 save. If he passes, he takes no damage. We check the Cure condition and note that 2 Consecutive Saves are required, so Valeros is still under the effects of the poison. On his next round, he must make another DC 20 Fort save. This time he fails, so he takes 1d6 Con damage and the Cure condition resets back to 2. On his next round, he has to make another DC 20 save. This time he makes the save, and takes no further damage. Next round: Another DC 20 save. This time he makes the save, and is cured of the poison 2 rounds early.

Compare this to something with no onset:

Burnt Othur Fumes
Type poison (inhaled); Save Fortitude DC 18
Frequency 1/round for 6 rounds
Initial Effect 1 Con drain; Secondary Effect 1d3 Con damage; Cure 2 consecutive saves

Valeros is following too closely behind Baleros after Taco Tuesday and is hit full in the face with a dose of Burnt Othur Fumes. Valeros must make a DC 18 Fort save. He rolls poorly, and is thusly poisoned. Because of this, he immediately takes 1 Con drain (the initial effect, since the onset time is non-existant). On Valeros' turn, he rolls against another DC 18 Fort save and makes it this time. He takes no additional Con damage. Checking the Cure Condition, we note that it takes 2 consecutive saves, so Valeros is still poisoned. On his next turn, he makes the DC 18 Fort save a second time. This effectively cures the poison and avoids the Secondary Effect of the poison altogether.

To sum up: The way you were taught effectively adds an onset time of a few seconds to every poison. By strictest definitions, he was wrong... but he had half the story.


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Old FAQ, and likely not the place for it.. but I dunno where else to go and if the dev team was considering more FAQ on poisons might look here.

What are the chances of any poison rules revamping/clarifications? With all the new content the old rules are showing some age in some small cases.
The cost vs effectiveness should be addressed a tad perhaps. Very few other items are so costly and so fail able, Scrolls and the like are similar cost and fail ability of the effect... but have much much stronger effects.
Especially with new abilities that interact with poison coming out.
But I'm biased since I think the stacking rules are a bit off. Since I could get shot with 40 darts with drow poison on it. But as I roll against them-and pass, the DC doesn't change despite the fact that I have over a 1000gold worth of poison in my system. It really seems like exposure in general should increase the DC (but not duration, that only increases when already failed one previously).
Additionally most of peoples’ confusions are because one naturally thinks it that more poison in your system (whether your immune system beats it or not) creates more strain on your body and increases the chances of overload.

Thoughts in general:

Inhale poison’s spread. Is it only 5ft square? Or does it spread around? Or does it spread more and more if you have poison doses stacked onto it?
-----
What-if any stats change when you use poison conversion. Generally contact and injury poisons don’t have onset times etc. but you can convert things with onset (say ingestion) into injury etc. And you can change injury to ingested. Will it gain or lose onset times etc? Or will you take a bite of your mutton and vomit immediately from poison?
----
Minor creation is a bit weird... do you need just "some sort" of poison to be able to use it to make any poison? Or do you need a sample of a poison--and you can only make that poison? Could I pay out the wazoo and craft a high end poison, then work with a wizard (or make a UMD roll with a scroll) and create several cubic feet of it?
How much poison is in a cubic foot? Or can you just make 10cubic feet of a poison... but it only counts as one dose because minor creation only specifies "object" not objects.
----
Such as finer detailed rules on crafting it, adding effects via craft DC increases (similar to crafting magic items), Like adding DC to crafting to increase the poison's stats (or at least it's DC) Being able to make epically hard crafting DC's and risking that much money should be ok for increasing effects..
----
Rules on how to gather poison from creatures in the world (is it craft alchemy? survival? is the DC just the poison's DC?)
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If you can gather from the world for non-creature based poisons (Is it craft alchemy? or is it survival?)
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It might be interesting to have more magic item supports. Like newer/better version of Poisoner's jackets for these sort of rules. Such as lowering the cost but requiring Craft rolls (and having the potential to fail and waste a usage per day) and if changed to do something along this clarification on which cost it uses as restriction.
----

-unrelated- the prestige class Daggermark Poisoner is very interesting but it should really have a small note about counting as class levels for rogue and alchemist talent/discoveries related to poisons. They should be unequally be the masters of poison. And they’re really unable to get some of the better talent/discoveries by a reasonable time period because of multiclassing. Considering how much they’ve giving up from any class they’re coming from.. it seems reasonable

Magic items for poisons:

Despite the fact that there are discoveries to do this. I think it might be good to have a magical item that allows you to concentrate poisons to raise the DC, but doesn't have as much time limit like the discoveries do (since the discoveries take a while, and it then goes inert).
Or create a new alchemical item that "stabilizes" concentrated poisons.
Because spending 1 min to concentrate and having it go inert within 1 hour is pretty pointless risk. If it was a full round action, it would be usable with the time limit... but as it stands it's difficult to know when you might fight in more open world games.
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Magic item of some kind or new weapon ability that allows Enhancement bonuses to apply to poison's DC. IF it's a new magic item (say gloves) it should be opened up more. You can pay for enhancement bonuses for the gloves but it only applies to poison’s DC and to any Alchemical Weapon you pick up. This would allow those folks who want to use alchemical weapons to be able to use them more later on.
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Can you create Magic Poison with craft wondrous objects? I know of one-which name I can remember- poison like magic item. It was a thrown vs ac dust thing that did large amounts of Dex damage and offered no save (?) there was a thread about using it on dragons to just end them. I'll have to look it up maybe.
-------


Joesi wrote:

Yeah I see both as possible options to interpret it, and I very much considered —if not favored— your interpretation of it as well. I believe I made a post asking for clarification about this.

My point still rests though — it's a bit odd to save against 1d3 hours of unconsciousness again if you've already failed a save against 1d3 hours of unconsciousness 1 round ago. What would happen? you remain unconscious despite succeeding your save, or would you miraculously be no longer unconscious?

Same sort of thing would apply with Drow Poison.

Joesi the reason he would keep saving is because of 2 reasons.

1. the duration of the unconsciousness, if he is not woken up, stacks. (as does any Secondary Effect on any other poison) so 5 more rounds times 1d3 equals at min 5 hours asleep. but only if he keeps failing. and no if he saves he is not automatically woken up he remains unconscious for the duration he rolled unless of course someone wakes him up.

2. Another person could wake him up in the same round he fell unconscious, (albeit wasting that persons turn). the PC who was poisoned decides he wants to make his save at the end of his turn. so uses his move to stand and another move to get away or a standard to shoot a bow if he is still clutching it or something. at the end of his turn he attempts to make another save and if he fails he falls unconscious again. this can happen repeatedly for the duration of the poison until he cures it.


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Hi all! question I have not found the answer to regarding ongoing poisons. I apologize if this is alreday here, I missed it. If you are already poisoned, say by a con drain poison, on your turn, when does the damage take effect? Understand from the Original FAQ post the player may make the save at any time on their turn. But does ongoing damage occur beginning of their turn or end? A CON drain poison w/ Fort save makes the save harder, a DEX drain poison could drop a char below 13, eliminating certain feats. so when is the damage applied within the characters turn? Beginning middle end? what takes place in what order? thanks in advance.
Also great post! Jason, Thanks!


Sneaky McSneak wrote:

Hi all! question I have not found the answer to regarding ongoing poisons. I apologize if this is alreday here, I missed it. If you are already poisoned, say by a con drain poison, on your turn, when does the damage take effect? Understand from the Original FAQ post the player may make the save at any time on their turn. But does ongoing damage occur beginning of their turn or end? A CON drain poison w/ Fort save makes the save harder, a DEX drain poison could drop a char below 13, eliminating certain feats. so when is the damage applied within the characters turn? Beginning middle end? what takes place in what order? thanks in advance.

Also great post! Jason, Thanks!

The damage occurs when you make the save, so it is likely better to wait until the end of your turn to make the save.

The damage cant occur until you make(attempt) the save anyway because you have to fail before it takes place.


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Jason Bulmahn wrote:
Blazej wrote:
I had always been a bit confused by the Green Prismatic Poison. With an initial effect of death, I've never been sure when the secondary effect and saves to cure would actually come into play.

That is a bit odd. I am going to look into that and get back to you. I have a suspicion that the effect of that ray will need to change. Looks like it was a left over from an earlier version of the poison mechanics.

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing

I know it's rare and the question old, but I still would like to get an answer to that


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dotting for reference

Grand Lodge

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Otherwhere wrote:
dotting for reference


How much ammunition do with the poison?

Thanks for reply.


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Ahmen wrote:

How much ammunition do with the poison?

Thanks for reply.

How much do what? Could you please specify what are you asking about?


Drejk wrote:
Ahmen wrote:

How much ammunition do with the poison?

Thanks for reply.

How much do what? Could you please specify what are you asking about?

For example, with a dose of poison Deathblade from 1,800 gp, many blowgun darts from I can do?

I would like to make a new character for a campaign among friends, and I've never used the poison in weapons.

Thank you.


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As far as I can tell a dose is enough for single attack, be it weapon or projectile so using poisons is very expensive. There might be spells or abilities that let you extend effects of a poison to a second attack but they would not work with projectiles as each projectile is poisoned separately and used once. For a blowgun using poisoner you should use the cheapest poisons possible. Of course with proper crafting skills you can save money by making poisons yourself, but it takes time and tools.

There are some options, such as playing vishkanya, or toxicant alchemist that let you get a few uses of special poison per day at no cost.


Drejk wrote:

As far as I can tell a dose is enough for single attack, be it weapon or projectile so using poisons is very expensive. There might be spells or abilities that let you extend effects of a poison to a second attack but they would not work with projectiles as each projectile is poisoned separately and used once. For a blowgun using poisoner you should use the cheapest poisons possible. Of course with proper crafting skills you can save money by making poisons yourself, but it takes time and tools.

There are some options, such as playing vishkanya, or toxicant alchemist that let you get a few uses of special poison per day at no cost.

Ok, thanks for reply!

Shadow Lodge Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8

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Jason Bulmahn wrote:
Blazej wrote:
I had always been a bit confused by the Green Prismatic Poison. With an initial effect of death, I've never been sure when the secondary effect and saves to cure would actually come into play.

That is a bit odd. I am going to look into that and get back to you. I have a suspicion that the effect of that ray will need to change. Looks like it was a left over from an earlier version of the poison mechanics.

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing

Since this is getting necro'd anyways, any word on what to do about prismatic spray?


So, did we ever get a clarification on poison from spells (poison spell, green prismatic effect)?


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Resurrecting this thread (again) because I still can't find an answer:

A lunar naga bites a PC three times, and the PC fails all three saves.

Great. The DC is now (18+2+2 =) 22. The duration is now (6+3+3-2 = ) 10 rounds. (The naga needed 3 rounds to bite 3 times.)

So, a cleric casts Neutralize Poison on the hapless PC.

Is the caster level check 18 (the original poison's DC) or 22 (because of the extra doses)?

Mild Rant:
And I won't go into a full-blown tirade about a fourth-level cleric spell being rendered nigh-useless by a caster level check (my 8th-level Life Oracle has only a 55% chance of curing the original poison, much less multiple bites), but if it's the original DC it at least gives clerics and oracles a reason to take Neutralize Poison instead of just relying on Communal Delay Poison, a few Restorations, and a few hundred in diamond dust...


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I can see this going either way, but provisionally my view is that while the DC to resist the poison increases by 2, the DC of the poison is still 18.


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NobodysHome wrote:

Resurrecting this thread (again) because I still can't find an answer:

A lunar naga bites a PC three times, and the PC fails all three saves.

Great. The DC is now (18+2+2 =) 22. The duration is now (6+3+3-2 = ) 10 rounds. (The naga needed 3 rounds to bite 3 times.)

So, a cleric casts Neutralize Poison on the hapless PC.

Is the caster level check 18 (the original poison's DC) or 22 (because of the extra doses)?

** spoiler omitted **

This is just a houserule of mine, but I enacted it for the exact same reason. A fourth level cleric spell should have a way better chance of actually doing what the name of the spell says, Neutralizing Poison. Therefore I allow the caster of the spell to add their Heal Skill bonus to that caster level check instead of their character level (because usually the healer types will have that skill maxed out and the bonus will be slightly higher than just their level). I've waffled back and forth on allowing them to also use a use out of a healer's kit to get another +2 on top of that. Like I said, houserule, the RAW is just 1d20 plus caster's level. I've often thought that there should be some language added to this spell that if the caster level check fails, it acts as a Delay Poison instead. That way it wasn't just a waste of spell.


Dot.


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Paizo Charter Superscriber; Pathfinder Companion, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Jason Bulmahn wrote:
Blazej wrote:
I had always been a bit confused by the Green Prismatic Poison. With an initial effect of death, I've never been sure when the secondary effect and saves to cure would actually come into play.

That is a bit odd. I am going to look into that and get back to you. I have a suspicion that the effect of that ray will need to change. Looks like it was a left over from an earlier version of the poison mechanics.

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing

While we are resurrecting this thread, has the above ever been addressed? Jason's comment was more than five years ago...


Zaister wrote:
Jason Bulmahn wrote:
Blazej wrote:
I had always been a bit confused by the Green Prismatic Poison. With an initial effect of death, I've never been sure when the secondary effect and saves to cure would actually come into play.

That is a bit odd. I am going to look into that and get back to you. I have a suspicion that the effect of that ray will need to change. Looks like it was a left over from an earlier version of the poison mechanics.

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing

While we are resurrecting this thread, has the above ever been addressed? Jason's comment was more than five years ago...

I'm thinking Breath of Life. At that level of play, every cleric's going to have one queued up in his/her back pocket... Or poorly-worded Wishes or Miracles, or anything else that brings the character back to life within the poison's duration without curing the poison...

Grand Lodge

Zaister wrote:
Jason Bulmahn wrote:
Blazej wrote:
I had always been a bit confused by the Green Prismatic Poison. With an initial effect of death, I've never been sure when the secondary effect and saves to cure would actually come into play.

That is a bit odd. I am going to look into that and get back to you. I have a suspicion that the effect of that ray will need to change. Looks like it was a left over from an earlier version of the poison mechanics.

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing

While we are resurrecting this thread, has the above ever been addressed? Jason's comment was more than five years ago...

Greetings from the future. We're at the final moments of Pathfinder 1st ed. Here's hoping we get an answer before Xmas.


NobodysHome wrote:
I'm thinking Breath of Life. At that level of play, every cleric's going to have one queued up in his/her back pocket... Or poorly-worded Wishes or Miracles, or anything else that brings the character back to life within the poison's duration without curing the poison...

Yep! I actually had this happen in a game. Poor bard took the con damage too after coming back to life.

Very sadly, rereading this I realized I've been running (and worse, explaining) poison without the initial damage from failing the affliction save after the first dose (essentially limiting poison damage to once per round after the first affliction). Honestly, it still feels right due to the whole timing trickiness: Did those three giant spiders hit on the same initiative or three staggered initiatives? Timing shouldn't make that much difference. I guess I'll correct and see how it goes :)


Hmm, just noticed I actually intended to run it like that, except without saves against doses after the initial failure, based on a 2009 post Here. Then this blog came out and I switched to giving saves on every initial hit, but didn't add back the initial damage too. Now I don't know what I want to do.

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