Is there somewhere in the 2nd edition rules that allow for something like that to happen outside of Encounter mode/initiative? There are a lot of cases where I've seen players try to set up and ambush or something, and have always been told that we have to enter Initiative to do the Ready action.To me it looked like the hooded guy shot Kamau in a period before Initiative. Not sure of the interactions between Modes, Actions and Initiative…
If I was the GM I’d just say the first person moving through the doorway eats a bolt. Then it’s time for Initiative.
Heh, no idea. My “interpretation” is more coming from the planet Handvavium. Personally, I can see this both ways:
A) Regardless of whether you Ready the action or not, you still need to *go first* to get it to *happen first*. Makes sense in PF2 terms.
B) Regardless of what Mode you are in, Readying an action has a purpose, and in this case, an ambush of sorts. And that supersedes Modes by the intent of the purpose.
[In the Basic edition of Dungeons and Dragons I played….40-odd years ago… there was a thing called Surprise - if your side rolled a 1 for Initiative (on a d6) your side was Surprised and the opposing side got a free attack in and then went first (unless both sides roll a 1…)]
Here, again, *if* I was the DM I would just have the first party member coming through the door blocked by detritus be shot at, regardless of Initiative. Mostly because the door is blocked by crappe, and no matter how strong or fast you are, the congruence of the door swinging open and the trash being in the way coupled with the hooded dood aiming at the door with a crossbow means…yeah, eat bolt.
And again, regardless of Modes. In fact, once we are talking to the guy and actively unlocking the door, I’d say we have entered Encounter mode. But mostly because I tend to be a little loose with the mechanics to create a more engaging and at times verisimilitudinous story. The ruleset being simulationist does at times get in the way of suspense/suspension of belief/disbelief.
Which I can see, might be problematic for players trying to get a sense of how the rules apply reliably and thus how to narratively inhabit the world without having occasionally or even endlessly to ask “may I?”. It’s a very fine line. Happily I find one we are all on together, balancing as we go.
Right, I agree that all makes sense. The question was about the PF2 rules, so I thought I was missing something about the rules.
It would also have made sense to enter initiative when Luc made the Diplomacy roll, since we were interacting through the door, in which case he'd have been able to Ready the action for whoever pushed the door open.
I think there are a *lot* of things about PF2 I don’t know, so definitely don’t look to me for rules answers! I will pipe up when I *do* know something!
Another thing to note is that Seren told Luc to “hold the door closed” as she was trying to “open it”. By which she meant “unlock it”. I imagine some of this might have been lost in translation for Kamau, who, being helpful, helped. Such is life…
Hey all, I am enjoying the system so much that I have posted a thread to GM Rise of the Runelords. If you guys are interested in that AP, let me know as you will have preference. Do not feel obligated to do so. Just wanted to put it out there. If you've already played it and have no interest, no worries, there will be no hard feelings.
I’m in. Have started it once but didn’t get much beyond the …thing…on the thing….inhabited by…things. Thanks for the offer - sent you a PM…
I'm in as well - I want to try a rogue - I just love dexterous classes.
Rogues are my newest favourite class in PF2 - being able to sneak attack and set up your own off-guard conditions is priceless. And the trap/lock stuff just adds to being able to do something…The quips don’t hurt either…
100%
Sneak attack only kicks in if the enemy is flat-footed. This would happen if you were undetected, hidden, or unnoticed when you attacked.
You were undetected at the start of the turn, but you Interacted to open the door and did a Move action. The "Sneak" action says, "You become observed as soon as you do anything other than Hide, Sneak, or Step. If you attempt to Strike a creature, the creature remains flat-footed against that attack, and you then become observed."
Now, in this case, you said you were doing an Interact and then Moved up next to the creature, both of which would have likely alerted it to your presence, even if your Stealth beat its perception. Even if you tried to Sneak instead of Stride as you moved into the room, there's no (easy) way to be in melee without it noticing you. From the "Sneak" action description, "You don’t get to roll against a creature if, at the end of your movement, you neither are concealed from it nor have cover or greater cover against it. You automatically become observed by such a creature."
Since you were undetected at the start of the turn, if you'd had a ranged weapon ready, you could have struck the creature and it would have been flat-footed to that attack.
There are also rogue feats, like Underhanded Assault and Tumble Through, that give you an ability to move into the room and still get off a flat-footed assault.
All rogues have Surprise attack, which says that if they roll stealth for initiative then they get sneak attack on the enemy before it has attacked. I have been assuming that Seren is stealthing around at the head of the party. Therefore I have been using her stealth modifier to initiative and when she wins, she gets sneak attack no matter the order of her actions in that round.
All rogues have Surprise attack, which says that if they roll stealth for initiative then they get sneak attack on the enemy before it has attacked. I have been assuming that Seren is stealthing around at the head of the party. Therefore I have been using her stealth modifier to initiative and when she wins, she gets sneak attack no matter the order of her actions in that round.
I stand corrected. I didn't realize that was automatic, thought it was a feat rogues had to take later on. Cheesier even than I thought! Most of my stealth knowledge comes from a sneaky ranger, so I didn't catch that aspect of the base rogue.
I really don’t want to play both Kelri and the npc cleric. If you guys want to post their actions, feel free.
Have we lost both of them? I thought Marietta had disappeared, but thought Kelri was still here. I’m happy to continue without Marietta completely as she seems to have been gone for a while. Perhaps Kelri is merely still on holiday?
If both are truly gone, I’m happy to continue without them to the end of Crypt of the Everflame and then perhaps we could recruit one or two more for Abomination Vaults?
I’m sorry AV_DM, so wrapped up in my own stuff I hadn’t noticed you were pulling double duty…
According to THIS post, Kelri should be back to normal posting around now…
I would say the wizard strides and casts Electric Arc at the monster. I don’t know what the cleric can do- maybe delay to see how hard the monster hits.
Perhaps Marietta could move in and cast magic weapon on one of Luc’s blades?
I have PMed Kelri and will let you know if she answers. I appreciate the 3 of you keeping the game going.
The thanks should all go to you for running the game!!!
I echo Seren, I'm having a blast playing PF2e. Btw, was that a wight or some other level draining creature that we just fought? +12 to hit was crazy! Glad that you rolled so poorly or that last fight may have been different.
Yeah, I am sorry, but I forgot to mention it after the fight. That was a PF2e wight - the drain effect is kind of weak IMO, but the +12 hit was massive. The die roller was not kind to me.
Kind of weak, but it reduces only by 1 with overnight rest, and the first spell that can mitigate it is level 4 Restoration, so unless you have a level 7 cleric running around with you, it can put you sub-optimal on hit points for days.
And then, if the adventure is constructed right, encounters after the possible drain condition involve poisons/diseases, so that penalty to the Fortitude save runs the risk of other problems. (Not to give the GM any ideas.)
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Or more wights…
Welcome to the group, NotEspi. Thanks for joining the fun.
Hello, hello! Teela Sedichi here, purveyor of fine garments and dolls!
In my free time, I like to play the fiddle and sort of read people's futures.
A perfect night out? Looking around dangerous ruins shrouded in mystery. Preferably cursed in one way or another.
Welcome to the game NotEspi. Seems we’re in another game together. (Ustemir/Ascaede).
Oh snap, double tables! What's up? Looking forward.
I must admit, I had doubts about a bard in a superdungeon, but I'll try to make it work. Somehow.
Don't count on me just dropping out of a closet where you are now, though. At least based on the information I have.
I'm pretty sure the numbers in the post header are wrong, too. If nothing else, the Bard DC is. I will revise it tomorrow. Time to sleep now.
And you are Level 2...which we are not...unless we almost are....
Bards are always useful.
Welcome Dax!
It gives the weapon the magical trait, meaning it can bypass some damage resistance.
Ie a creature that has resistance 10 to non-magical slashing damage would take full damage from a slashing +1 weapon.
However, if said creature has resistance 10 to slashing in general, the damage reduction still applies.
If anyone is familiar with the Crypt of Everflame, it has the upper level (which I did complete in this game) and a complete lower level with another 10 rooms to travel through. However, that adventure is also designed to take characters to 3rd level or pretty close to it. My intent in running the Crypt was as an intro adventure and to get the party to 2nd level only before tackling the Abomination Vaults. Therefore, that is the reason that we're skipping all of the lower level and jumping to the last room and the boss fight. After this, the three players should be 2nd level and can meet up with the new player characters back in Otari. That is my thinking, so don't hold anything back because I will not either. [Insert evil GM laugh]
@Teela: thanks for the info!
@AV_DM: That sounds like a good compromise and plan of action. As for not holding back, you can see, Seren is getting a little creative with bombs and caltrops…
I see the old bunch is starting with fresh characters as well.
Thought I’d take this to the Discussion thread.
How does Battle Medicine interact with Dying?
It seems another balancing point is that it is only usable one per hour, not once per battle. The only other discussions I can find seem to deal with how many hands you need and whther you actually need a healer’s kit….
I’m happy for you to rule however you feel AV_DM!
I also found this on Reddit
It’s weird I can’t find more discussions on this…
This is interesting - it is basically a conversation of all the ways people narrate how Battle Medicine works with Dying which would seem to indicate that it does work as I thought…
Battle medicine (1 action)
Source Core Rulebook pg. 258 4.0
Prerequisites trained in Medicine
Requirements You are holding healer's tools, or you are wearing them and have a hand free
You can patch up wounds, even in combat. Attempt a Medicine check with the same DC as for Treat Wounds and restore the corresponding amount of HP; this doesn't remove the wounded condition. As with Treat Wounds, you can attempt checks against higher DCs if you have the minimum proficiency rank. The target is then temporarily immune to your Battle Medicine for 1 day.
Dying
Source Core Rulebook pg. 619 4.0
You are bleeding out or otherwise at death’s door. While you have this condition, you are unconscious . Dying always includes a value, and if it ever reaches dying 4, you die. If you’re dying, you must attempt a recovery check at the start of your turn each round to determine whether you get better or worse. Your dying condition increases by 1 if you take damage while dying, or by 2 if you take damage from an enemy’s critical hit or a critical failure on your save.
If you lose the dying condition by succeeding at a recovery check and are still at 0 Hit Points, you remain unconscious, but you can wake up as described in that condition. You lose the dying condition automatically and wake up if you ever have 1 Hit Point or more. Any time you lose the dying condition, you gain the wounded 1 condition, or increase your wounded condition value by 1 if you already have that condition.
That's pretty clear as far as I am concerned.
Once per day per character(assuming no other medicine feats that reduce that time), you can heal people in battle with one action, if you have healer's tools and a free hand.
This brings them back to consciousness. Still prone etc, but able to act.
In the end, it is the GM's call, but I would not mind knowing of any rulings made for this game. Might affect my feat picks and whatnot.
Is the question about the Dying condition or the Wounded condition? The Dying condition seems clear - as soon as you gain hit points, you're no longer Dying (but your Wounded condition goes up). That's all defined in the conditions.
A success or crit on the Treat Wounds Medicine check also removes the Wounded condition, but Battle Medicine expressly says that it doesn't do that. So they're both conscious, with hit points recovered from Battle Medicine, and at Wounded 1.
Treat Wounds itself would never interact with Dying, because Dying is only relevant in Encounter Mode. If someone has the Dying condition, you're still in rounds, and you aren't going to be able to do Treat Wounds until that Dying condition gets resolved ... either by someone stabilizing/healing the person (in which case they then have the Wounded condition) or them dying.
It's also worth noting that *anyone* can use Medicine (trained or untrained) to Administer First Aid (2 actions) to stabilize, which also removes the Dying condition. So if you didn't have Battle Medicine, you'd use Medicine to stabilize, and then use Medicine to Treat Wounds after the fight.
Yes, that is what I understood - that even though you have healed someone with Battle Medicine, they still have Wounded which means if they go down again they will be much closer to Dying 4, and thus dead. And of course, they have to burn an action to get up from Prone…
I agree with this:
The Dying condition seems clear - as soon as you gain hit points, you're no longer Dying (but your Wounded condition goes up). That's all defined in the conditions.
A success or crit on the Treat Wounds Medicine check also removes the Wounded condition, but Battle Medicine expressly says that it doesn't do that. So they're both conscious, with hit points recovered from Battle Medicine, and at Wounded 1.
Ok, I found this discussion about Dying and initiative here on the boards, but I’m not sure I understand it…
I found the answer in the errata and I posted it in the Game thread.
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Basically, to give you the greatest amount of time before the effect that is killing you to finish it's business, when you are dying, your initiative changes to that just before that effect has a chance to hurt you again.
Say that you are first in initiative, your ally is second, and the villain is third. The villain takes you to dying. Your initiative goes to just before the villain's next turn. That way, your ally has a chance to heal you before you can attempt a stabilization roll or the villain can take the opportunity to just kill you on their turn.
Right. Thanks Dax. So…ok. Huh.
There must be a way to write the ruling in a way that makes more sense than the way it currently is written…Your way is definitely easier to understand. Thanks again.
GM, I did not know we were playing with the free archetype. I want to take Dual Weapon Warrior, which gives me Double Slice. Can I retrain Double Slice, which I already have, to another class feat?
GM, I did not know we were playing with the free archetype. I want to take Dual Weapon Warrior, which gives me Double Slice. Can I retrain Double Slice, which I already have, to another class feat?
Yeah, sure.