Challenge accepted.
Just as a side note, this Google sheets tool that some kind person put together really helped me picture and understand the Harrowing. If you make a copy for yourself and go to the "Tapestry (U-fill)" tab, you can put the cards that were drawn here all together in a spread and see their meanings and whether they're misaligned, true matches, and so on, all right next to each other. It also has a different tab to randomly generate spreads according to the rules given in the Harrow sourcebook, if you like. I found it useful, anyway.
Sorry, I posted something, but I may have been reading too much into something, so I removed it.
Thank you for the resource.
Re: Lamm's dagger, if it looks and feels like an ordinary dagger (not masterwork or anything) and did not ping on detect magic when the spellcasters detected magic on the Fishery items and used Spellcraft to identify some of the other items' properties, as we know they must have for us to have the information we have, then yes, to us it is an ordinary dagger. Are those things true though?
I forgot about this, sorry. I generally don't assume anyone is using detect magic unless they state it. In a high fantasy world, it's highly likely people see potions in potion-shaped bottles and magic wands frequently and would just assume they are what they are without specifically "detecting their magic." Given that GM Elfriede just handed out the information, it could be she makes that assumption, but I do not.
Sorry for that being ambiguous due to two GMs. Just realize that unless a character states they are casting a spell or taking an action, I make no assumptions. That assumption or lack there of can often make roleplay very interesting when characters cart around a powerful magic item with zero awareness.
As far as whether it appears 'Masterwork,' that's very subjective depending on the artisan who crafted it. I would say that for someone with skill using the items, this dagger would feel well-balanced and sharp. It certainly gives the appearance of being well-taken care of or even new.
Ah I am of the “assume people detect magic etc” variety, at least for PbP, as it helps keep things moving. If you need me to actually do so from now on, I can.
Take Lina for example. By her own choice, she selected a race which has a penalty for being in bright light. Presumably the design of this race offsets that penalty with an advantage in another area. Allowing her to ignore that penalty because we're handwaving her casting of her penumbra spell means we're now also ignoring the in-combat penalties of either accepting the disadvantage or the "combat time" she may require to cast or recast the spell allowing her to continue. Action economy is everything in combat.
By not requiring the declaration of detect magic or other such skills not governed by the GM (detect traps, etc.), we ignore a mechanical requirement of the game as designed. If I was going to ignore any Pathfinder mechanic, it would be alignment which grosses me out, lol.
There are times and places when using such abilities are inconvenient or carries a consequence of which players may or may not be aware and getting into the habit of forgetting it makes those events non-existent as well or create constant retcons when players insist they would not have done something already assumed per prior arrangement.
Believe it or not, by creating this requirement, I actually create more player agency as you may decide there are reasons you do or do not choose to take such actions in certain moments instead of a blanket assumption.
What do you guys want? Loot is always identified and appraised?
All of your points mentioned are worth considering—believe me, I think not knowing what magic items do is very fun!—but they are not taking into consideration the unique circumstances of play-by-post. I am much less interested in automation in the game I run over roll20, for example. I only automatically give them spellcraft results for anything I deem trivial for their witch’s spellcraft take 10.
First of all, I’m not saying that we need to auto-pilot everything, most things, or even many things. Far from it! I just think that elements of the game that are trivial or otherwise uninteresting should be smoothed over. For the example of loot, I think it’s fair to say that people scan things with detect magic without specifying as such, but I do think that if identifying properties is non-trivial for the party members (Abella only has a +5 spellcraft), we should still have to identify them the old-fashioned way (though I would be fine with you rolling the spellcrafts to speed things up).
However, I am well into two games with GM Euan, who has finished more play-by-post games than anyone else on these boards, so I’m going by what he says and does. Play-by-posts live and die by momentum, and anything that slows the game down has a chance to mess up that momentum. I’ve also been on the boards for years, and I can say with certainty that what’s most important is making the game run smoothly and quickly.
I would also point out that taking a more auto-pilot approach on a number of game elements helps to keep the game amiable and low pressure. Take time gaps. What happens when we’ve taken a break for a week in the middle of a dungeon because someone had life happen? It can be hard enough trying to find ones bearings after a hectic week without having to micromanage buffs. What happens when the game has kept moving while I was out and now I have a week’s worth of checks and buffs to catch up on? I would rather just know my GM trusts me, and I trust my GM. I’m not here to wield rules as a weapon in a battle with my GM, but to tell a collaborative story within a framework of restrictions on both of us. I guarantee any goodwill a GM grants in such a regard is matched by me. There are times I will think in games “did that BBEG *really* have enough time and awareness to prebuff that much?” But then I remember the GM trusts me, so I trust them.
To use your Lina example, I would be fine with handwaving it and would make explicit exceptions for when it wouldn’t be possible. For example, if you are at a public event, people are not going to look kindly on you casting spells every 10 minutes or so. Also, as a sorcerer, she has already paid a cost (a valuable spell known) to get around the weakness of a -1 to hit in bright light. I have a character that always does a Sending to her lover every morning. I don’t always have the inspiration or time to write a unique sending each in-game day, so I just always leave that one spell per day expended and trust that if something would have come up in it, my GM will tell me.
I spent a long time playing in person with books, so failing a Spellcraft or Appraise check often meant the DM having to reread back through books to find out where some item came from, and more often than not it turned out to be a +1 something. Things are a lot easier these days with searchable pdf's and PvP boards.
I'm fine with having to cast and do everything manually. It does add some creative opportunities into posts which I like. I also agree with the flow and momentum of the game being important. At lower level, these things are less of a problem, but at higher levels then can be cumbersome.
We can start on manual and always switch to automatic at a later time when everyone agrees that it's appropriate?
Lina is just an example because it's an easy one to discuss, but certainly not one I'm going to champion until the end. I've already been mulling over a way to try and create an in-game mechanism for avoiding the spell being needed every 10 minutes, so it's not a hill I plan to die on today.
I don't see how requiring people to indicate they're taking time to detect and appraise and whatnot is any impediment to posting momentum, but feel free to educate me. As I see it, if you didn't say you detected, and therefore didn't know that apparently ash-covered dull piece of iron is actually a disguised +3 flaming sword activated by 'Yippee-Ki-Yay, M+%$&#~~$~##!' then well, you're just carrying around an iron bar as far as you know if you kept it all. Game doesn't stop, time didn't freeze. Post away! ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
However, I'd rather just keep everyone happy, so if you'd prefer to have spoilers on everything you find or encounter, I don't really care. I just think it removes an element of the game which actually can have fun consequences for forgetting or failing (unlike alignment which I think only adds a sour taste in everyone's mouth whenever it is forced to be addressed by game mechanics).
My only two cents in this discussion basically boil down to:
- What's easiest on the GM and the players?
- What's going to keep the amount of bookkeeping needed to a minimum.
I'll be honest, that last one is one of the reasons I don't play wizards all that much on the boards. Bookkeeping is the one thing I hate more than anything in this game, and it's one of the things that have been keeping me from starting up a game myself despite knowing at least one person here wants me to. (One of the other things being a lack of spark for what to run.)
Personally, if you want to keep that somethings magic a secret until someone runs a detect magic spell over it, I would hold off until someone does cast it, then post what they get with a good enough skill roll. If it's unclear if something happened, ask questions. If I were running the game, I'd just post spoilers with the required DCs noted that way it speeds up that part of the process.
Then again, I'm not very crunch oriented. I'm much more of a narrative kind of guy, rules be darned into wool socks.
But, seeing as I'm playing our heavy hitter in melee and against EVUL! I'll just note that these are my ramblings and that I really don't have a horse in this race.
Also, I think you just potentially answered a question of mine that I sent you via PMs, GM.
So, in short if I say I search the door, I as a player expect that I find anything and everything there is to find with the door. If I have to specify that I am checking for traps, and then locks, and then writing on the wall, etc. I think it gets to be unnecessarily confrontational.
Garrett provides a good example of what I mean. When players have to constantly specify in minute detail basic actions that should be taken for granted, it leaves you constantly worried you are going to miss something buried in the middle of 6 paragraphs of text or that you won’t ask the right question and that you will be punished for it.
And as I said, I don’t think handwaving identifying things makes sense unless it *actually* is trivial for the players’ abilities. I *do* think that handwaving the detect magic on the box of loot or the body of the BBEG is reasonable. To use your example, we would just know that the sword in question is magic, but probably have no idea what it does for a while. If we then forget to identify it and leave it lingering in the stash, that’s on us!
All that said, the consensus seems to be more towards less auto-pilot for now, so I’m good with that. I do think it’s a worthwhile conversation to have and to possibly revisit later, and I appreciate everyone’s input!
@Abella: I agree with the idea of assuming detect magic when it makes sense that the heroes would be doing so, and have the capability (wizard isn't unconscious, etc.).
Ultimately, I will say this conversation and my views were probably more triggered by meta-game knowledge that Lamm's dagger is actually magical. I feel a single request in game from one character to another to use detect magic, or asking me if "auto-detect" is enabled in my game instead of blanket assumptions would have made this much less muddy of a discussion.
I'm keen on keeping the "magic" of fantasy worlds alive, but high fantasy games do make that hard when your characters are so inured to magic that nothing magical actually surprises anyone. Consider me a holdover from the idea of wonder and creative storytelling rather than someone trying to force bookkeeping actions down your throat. Having magic items not be obvious is something I think of as fun and potentially exciting, but I will concede to everyone's point about it. As Golarion is highly magical I guess I just have to accept that most people would just automatically assume something will be magical whenever they go somewhere new and be looking for it.
Ah I didn’t even realize anything about the dagger. I know very little about this AP except some broad strokes so I was just talking more generally. I’m also the kind of person that when I *do* hve meta knowledge, I use it as license to make *worse* decisions, not better :P
I do absolutely agree with you on how I prefer more wondrous magic as a rule, and it’s one that Golarion can make difficult! I think we have the same feelings on that subject but just have different thoughts on how best to deal with it! I sincerely appreciate the conversation and totally understand where you are coming from.
As a side note, one of my ways that I like to spice up magic and make it feel new and different is by leaning into the subjectivity of it. Abella has her own understanding of her magic that is totally heterodox from anything in the books. I have another who is a sorceress but believes she is a divine caster due to a combo of being in love with Iomedae, low wisdom, and no spellcraft or knowledge (arcana) and comes up with her own names for all her spells. I also have a GM who likes to add tweaks to magic items to make them more unique, like instead of a simple wand of CLW, it’s a tree branch that glows green like a light spell, but it will go out once we use the last charge.
Some optional homework; feel free to ignore if you'd like.
I will be advancing us to The Next Day shortly. Lol, I suppose I should actually figure out what the calendar date is and start using that to make future posts clear.
OK, so by my reckoning, we should be starting the morning of Sunday, 10 Desnus, 4708.
GM Elfriede had you gather on Fireday, 8 Desnus, you attacked that night meaning the trek to the Sanctuary also occurred that night, so morning to save the kiddos on Starday, 9 Desnus and then that day's evening has just completed.
Does that sound right to everyone, or did I miss a day in there?
Those dates sound right, GM. We didn't have an official in-game year or day-of-the-week that it was before, that's all.
Wherever we land on assuming vs. declaring things like detect magic, or rolling Spellcraft and Appraise proactively, reactively or on-autopilot, Shrike can't perform any of those actions. So I'm fine with whatever system; I just would like everyone to be on the same page.
With that said, it would be weird to me if Shrike, a non-magic-user, was always putting various items in front of the magic-users' faces and saying explicitly every time, "Hey, is this magical? How about this? And this?" As a player, I honestly don't mind bookkeeping (which is why I set up that loot sheet), but in this case, I literally can't do the bookkeeping and don't want to be in the position of nagging other people to do it. That will just be annoying and a waste of time for everyone. Equally, I don't want to sell a magic dagger for .5 gp.
This sounds much more fun than homework! I wi sleep on it and get it up in the morning
I got your PM, GM Pinvendor, and should be able to get up a post with both things by later in the afternoon. Just couldn't get them done in time to combine into one giant post, and didn't want to keep Audria waiting.
Alright, everyone appears to be stagnating a little. I'm sure it has more to do with not knowing what to do next, and each of you seems to be waiting for someone else to make a declaration. As I said when I originally took over, this is kind of a weird spot in the campaign when the more focused dangers and enemies haven't yet reared their heads visibly, so it requires a more sandbox/open world approach from you as players.
In that vein, my plan to keep this moving is to transition into a Kingmaker-exploration concept if any of you are familiar with that AP. I GM'd a KM game for a while and the notion of time passing while the players explored hexes created the need for posts to be painted in broad strokes by the players since their posts covered large quantities of time and travel unless a random or scripted encounter was triggered.
Once we move past the current day Sunday, 10 Desnus, 4708; I will begin narrating your actions as a group across a couple of days at time, rolling for random encounters based on the current threat level of the city's unrest and the scripted encounters based on your group's decision for the following day's actions. Basically, I'll narrate the day's events, the group will sit around the dinner table and decide what to do the next day which can be done out of character or in character as you feel comfortable.
I've mostly been holding off on my The Next Day Sunday, 10 Desnus, 4708 post to give people more time for their Nighttime activity posts, but we may have to progress time and those may have to wait for a subsequent night(s).
If anyone has questions or concerns about this plan, please discuss.
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I’m still working on my dream post. My parents are visiting from out of town this weekend so I might not have much chance to post, but I’ll do my best!
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And to settle it once and for all!
I'm still mulling over my dream post as well. (Actually love writing these.) I also thought that it'd be better to let you have a say in what Tallyfeather finds on her little expedition (expterition?)
Basically, I have ideas, I just didn't have the juice to write everything all at once and I was going to be breaking up Tally's bit anyway.
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Specifically about the Desert Inverted posts: that's just for fluff and fun, so you can post that and spoiler it whenever you'd like. No pressure to come up with something now before moving the plot forward.
The Past Harrow cards posting challenges will be little opportunities for you all to acquire Harrow points which are extremely rare commodities in the actual AP...which I never understood, so let's fix that so people will actually use them!
So, if I understand it right, we should all have gotten at least 4 Harrow points (2 from the original Harrowing, 2 from this one, plus a possible additional 1 from the dream sequence.) I think Audria may be the only one that has used one so far. And this is what we can use them for, per the original explanation. I've put a Harrow Points segment in Shrike's status line, so hopefully I'll remember to use them when beneficial from now on.
Yup. sounds about right.
GM, could you please link the Loot sheet to the campaign tab?
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1o8UY8RElnyDuDhNtNoZETw1iitmJqcAE12h 5jEFyl0Q/edit#gid=0
I had a few things I wanted to purchase but I'm not sure how we're doing loot.
I'm looking to spend a few hundred gold, but it's not necessary by any means. Just seems like a potential time to do some shopping from a player's standpoint. It may not be the best time with the city in turmoil though, from the character's standpoint. Anyway, just throwing it out there.
I think we are going for the reward next.
And I would imagine there are plenty of shops between here and there.
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Harrow Points to date:
Total 4 + 1 - X = current (x =spent)
Shopping may be problematic unless you’re in the right district. We can do a random chance encounter for an open shop. Lina, give d100 roll under 30 means you find an open shop in the current area around the temple.
CLW wand is still on pips agenda — getting post up soon
Just because Bilbo did it, doesn't mean Pip can do it.
Can a normal dagger be a small Shortsword, by RAW I am sure it is no.
Regarding another in game question I think GM Elfriede overlooked, the key-shaped dagger may have more story to tell. Knowledge (History) or (Local) DC 20 gets you the information.
Oh, I missed this earlier.
Okay, cool.
Pippip, I think the default RAW answer is that while a Small character can wield a Medium weapon as though it is one category of encumbrance heavier (so, a light weapon like a dagger becomes a one-handed weapon), they take a -2 penalty on all attacks with it. To represent the grip being too large or small, etc.
Yeah, what Shrike said. I was thinking about it, and while it kind of makes sense, it would likely still be incorrectly balanced for the expected type of fighting if that makes sense.
I was just going to hand wave it, but if there’s rules about it already, let’s just keep it simple.
Also, I’m going to respond to Austria’s post for info via Talanaliel and then get your next morning started.
@Lina: so your roll is pretty close. I’ll say we don’t have an active and open store, but with all of the citizens surrounding the temple, you can find very basic items, and maybe like one or two magical items. We’ll treat it like trying to shop in a large village for the purposes of availability. If anything healing items will be the most prevalent given the location, naturally.
@Pip: One of the acolytes is capable of producing the wand you’re after if you and/or the team is willing to pay. Does not need to be in coin if you want to barter some of the loot based on value.
@Shrike: out to dinner with mom and grandmother, so I’ll get your key dagger info when I get home.
GM, could you please link the Loot sheet to the campaign tab?
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1o8UY8RElnyDuDhNtNoZETw1iitmJqcAE12h 5jEFyl0Q/edit#gid=0
This URL appears to be incorrect. I get a page not found error. :(
A space got introduced into that URL somehow and reproduced in the 'Current Loot' link up top, GM. Delete the space, and it will work.
Also: A serial killer murdered an average of one person every two weeks for seven years, all of them in a city of only like 20,000 people, and was never caught? Man, the Korvosan Guards really are bad at their job.
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Yeah, I had to re-read the line when I saw it. When I first saw it I just saw 15 ---- people. Then I realized my brain skipped over something, and it was the word dozen. 15 dozen. In a world where divination and necromantic magic exists...and no one caught the serial killer.
Link is fixed!
15 total people makes way more sense and is bad enough, honestly, but if 180+ victims is what the AP says, that's what the AP says, I guess.
I restored 2 HP per natural healing of 1 per character level for the night of 8 hours of rest, putting Shrike back at full. Let me know if we shouldn't be doing that. Nonlethal damage typically heals at a rate of 1 per character level per hour, so I think that should be gone after a night too.
Pip’s next shopping plan is to get a scroll with 4 uses of vanish to help Garrett at 100gp. He will also be looking for the floating feather - feather token at 450gp too for someone and trading the ivory succubus for it.
And, of course I goofed the date. /facepalm.
Sunday 10 Desnus...
@Pip: In the current state of the city, you are not able to locate anyone among the citizenry surrounding the temple that have those to offer. Also, if you're showing the statuette around, you're going to get some odd looks and there will be whispers behind your back.
Red Mantis lady is so creepy! Love it.
That scene gave me goosebumps.
I appreciate the compliments!
One of my friends was so upset at the spamming of detect magic, he assigned a host of traps with Trigger=detect magic cast in range target = caster
I should have been more specific, but Pip will use detect magic on unknown loot as a matter of course unless Lina does it. When he used spellcraft on the pile, he would have noted the dagger. As a player I assumed the magic items had already been sorted out.
The descriptions are awesome—so awesome I would save in text files in case you ever move to foundry VTT where you can cut and paste them into map and journal notes and want to prepoulate a Foundry scene with them.
Foundry with PF2e free stuff is amazing but is $50 (players are free)
I can't quite tell if you guys are still RPing, or if I should narrate you along. I don't like to make assumptions for my players, so I'm looking for a pretty clear indication the scene's moved on like,
I gather my gear and signal everyone to follow me into the streets. Eye of the Peacock shouldn't be too hard to find.
(bold only to separate it in this post; not formatting desired)
I'm still up for some RP, but I tend to play that by ear. If the others are ready to move on, I'm okay with it as well.