Gunner harness reduced Strength score


Rules Questions


4 people marked this as FAQ candidate.

I don't want to post the whole thing because its new but

A gunner
harness reduces the minimum Strength score required to fire a
heavy weapon without penalty, as determined by the harness’s
type

How much does a gunner harness take off the required strength score? There's a listed strength score (which is the same as whats required to fire the gun at that i level) , and a penalty off of full attacking. But i don't see the promised "take x points of strength off the requirement"

Is it the same as the amount it reduces the full attack penalty?


Yeah, it doesn't read well. I breezed it over because really no one in our group uses heavy weapons (the only one who can is a melee fighter with heavy armor and basically no Dex).

My best interpretation, is that it's supposed to read as the harness considers your strength as the strength score they state. So the level 3 harness treats your Str as 12, and the level 7+ ones treat your Str as 14.

This would allow low Str Soldiers to use heavy weapons as an option? But that is my best interpretation. I could always be wrong.


1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.
Armory p.60 wrote:

Light Gunner Harness (Level 3): Strength 12; reduce your total

penalty by 1.
Heavy Gunner Harness (Level 7): Strength 14; reduce your
total penalty by 2.

These reduce penalties affect a character not proficient in using a heavy weapon. Instead of a -4 it's now reduced buy the numbers above.

CRB p.170 wrote:
Minimum Strength: The minimum Strength score is 12 for 1st- through 10th-level heavy weapons and 14 for 11th level and higher heavy weapons. A character using a heavy weapon without the appropriate minimum Strength takes a –2 penalty to attack rolls with that weapon.

It also allows a character with lower strength to use the weapon. Let's say an Exocrotex mechanic get's Heavy Weapon proficiency for free but doesn't have the required STR?

CRB wrote:

Full Attack:

You can spend a full action to make two attacks, each with a –4 penalty to the attack rolls.

It also reduces the full attack penalty when firing with a full attack.

They basically give everyone a benefit when getting the harness. Some get more of a bonus than others.


JetSetRadio wrote:
Armory p.60 wrote:

Light Gunner Harness (Level 3): Strength 12; reduce your total

penalty by 1.
Heavy Gunner Harness (Level 7): Strength 14; reduce your
total penalty by 2.

These reduce penalties affect a character not proficient in using a heavy weapon. Instead of a -4 it's now reduced buy the numbers above.

CRB p.170 wrote:
Minimum Strength: The minimum Strength score is 12 for 1st- through 10th-level heavy weapons and 14 for 11th level and higher heavy weapons. A character using a heavy weapon without the appropriate minimum Strength takes a –2 penalty to attack rolls with that weapon.

It also allows a character with lower strength to use the weapon. Let's say an Exocrotex mechanic get's Heavy Weapon proficiency for free but doesn't have the required STR?

CRB wrote:

Full Attack:

You can spend a full action to make two attacks, each with a –4 penalty to the attack rolls.

It also reduces the full attack penalty when firing with a full attack.

They basically give everyone a benefit when getting the harness. Some get more of a bonus than others.

That is wrong. The harness describes it's bonuses as so.

"A gunner harness reduces the minimum Strength score required to fire a heavy weapon without penalty, as determined by the harness’s type. In addition, when you fire the mounted weapon, reduce the total penalty you take for making a full attack and due to range by a value determined by the harness’s type."

The penalty drop they write of 1 for the level 3, and 2 for the level 7 is in reference to the Full Attack penalty. It would have no effect on the proficiency penalty.
EDIT: Or range penalties. I didn't mean to exclude that it reduces the potential range penalty.

Additionally, the Heavy Weapon proficiency feat requires: "Str 13, proficiency in small arms and longarms." So you need to meet the 12 Str requirement to gain proficiency at all. This item pretty much seems to only benefit non-Str invested Soldiers (which is fine), in terms of its poorly worded Str-reduction ability.


I have no idea why you're bringing proficiency into this.

Moving and then taking 1 shot with a heavy weapon with the harness on would but without proficiency would get you zero benefit. It doesn't reduce every penalty to fire the weapon, it only reduces the penalty for full attacking.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Starting to realize more and more that this book is kind of a hot mess. Great content! Poor editing.


Ravingdork wrote:
Starting to realize more and more that this book is kind of a hot mess. Great content! Poor editing.

Yep. Like another hot mess Paizo released not that long ago, Ultimate Wilderness.

Funny thing that, UW was released same time as the SFCRB and both had major issues, then Armory gets released alongside Pathfinder Playtest and look at that! Both have major issues. It's almost like focusing two books for two games major releases is a poor idea...


My first instinct is to blame Gencon, apparently the supposed holy grail of deadlines that makes it necessary to push products out, regardless of how rushed they are.
Last year, this year, same thing.

Is it really that unmissable, business wise ?
At what point does it stop being worth it ?
Hard to judge from outside the US : it's basically a non-event over here, but I assume the States are the core of the market, and I've no idea how much of an impact it has on sales. I just know I'm getting salty.
But that's all three of the three biggest last books, all released for this, all feeling rushed and unsatisfying - the worst part being how full they are of good ideas, great concepts, etc. Frustrating.
Here's hoping next year's better. More serene, maybe.

Not that that has anything to do with the topic.

Regarding the harness ... It's weirdly worded, to the point I'm guessing it was modified during development and only half-corrected ?
Just reducing the necessary Str would likely just lead to overburdened gunners, unable to lift their weapons and ammo.
And raising Str to the set, needed value is arguably also a simpler way to handle this.
The reduced penalty for full and long range attacks is nice though.


Look, I've been put into a hospital under a wrong name. Twice.

Mistakes happen. This is a gaming system, not something that's life and death. Its a really big, really crunchy book and something that affects something as integral as what classes people needs probably got a few whacks with the try it again hammer.

So yes, this needs a whack with the clue by four. But I don't think the recriminations are helpful.


Going by the amount of sales I recall from my brief visit to GenCon last year? Yes, GenCon actually is that "unmissable", and more. Its a giant party with about a hundred thousand guests, who are both marketing opportunity and thick wallets eager to open. Missing GenCon means both missing potentially 7 figure sales revenue, and the core demographic who will take your game home with them and pitch it to an exponentially expanding circle of additional potential customers.


Does anyone know if they've put out any changes/errata on this? It seems like a case of RAI versus RAW in terms of the strength score because it says it "Reduces the minimum strengths core required to fire the weapon without penalty, as determined by the harness' type." Then it lists a score of 12 for the light gunner harness. That's *already* the minimum score to operate lower level heavy weapons without penalty. I'd love to get something official from the Paizo people because I'm playing a gnome mechanic who recently got proficiency in heavy weapons and a squad machine gun.

Having looked through in the case of strict RAW DM interpretations you can go with the heavy bipod which is actually cheaper than the gunner's harness but takes either move actions to deploy in combat or a bit of in-character narration beforehand, but I like the "always on" facet of the gunner's harness.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

No, nothing has changed.


Ok, this is how my brain reads it.
So not having the strength for the weapon gives a -2
A light would reduce the penalty by 1 and reduce the total penalty of Full attack and range mods by 1. The Heavy Does the same job, but by 2.
So your Prototype Mechanic or Dex based soldier (Both Str 10) have a Heavy gun and harness. Their range is 80 ft. Target is 100 ft. So -2 for no Str and -2 for range. If you full attack, -4. a total of -6 from both range and full auto.
Light: Single shot, they would be at -4 without, -2 with. The min Str is reduced to -1 and the range is now -1. Full auto would make it -8 without, -6 with.
Heavy: Single shot, they would be at -4 without, 0 with. The min Str is reduced to 0 and the range is now 0. Full auto would make it -8 without, -4 with.
If your target was at your 80 ft range with a heavy, you would be at -2, the range penalty is gone so the total modifier here is -4 being reduced by 2.

I know Prototype Mechanics can get proficiency for free without meeting the requirements, I don't know if any of the archetypes also allow gaining it for free. Also there is a race which gains heavy weapons proficiency without needing to meet the requirements. Megalonyxa,


The penalty reduction is tied to the harnesses ability to help with full attacks. Negating the strength score is a seperate clause, goes up to strength 14, and doesn't havea listed reduction.


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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

I believe the intent is to ignore penalties incurred by not having STR at the score listed in the table. The way it is written just screams "Editing Error" as though it had a table associated with an earlier version of the text.


Thats fair enough, so the listed strength is your 'effective' Str for a weapon in that harness?
Was also mostly pointing out that the reduction isn't added on twice, once for the range band and once for the full attack.


Wesrolter wrote:

Thats fair enough, so the listed strength is your 'effective' Str for a weapon in that harness?

Was also mostly pointing out that the reduction isn't added on twice, once for the range band and once for the full attack.

Yes, so when it says 14 you count as having a 14 strength.

If you take an asmodean reading of whats obviously a different chart than the text has, you wind up with a 14 point reduction in the strength score necessary.. meaning that even a striafela out of hydrobody could use the biggest gun around.

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