PFS scenarios too easy w / PRPG characters?

Let me give you a little background.

My first PFS games were at Gencon 08.
My first character was killed (IMHO unfairly) in my first game.
My second character still lives, and adventures more carefully (and has better will saves).

I have played Silent Tide, Slavepits, Silken Caravan, Frozen Fingers, Tide of Morning, Pirate Pact, and Hydra's Fang with the 3.5 ruleset.
Many of these adventures were EXTREMELY difficult (sometimes due to unbalanced writing IMHO). I think the details have been discussed in the individual scenario discussion threads elsewhere on these boards.

I played Decline of Glory, Shipyard Rats and Cassomir's Locker this past weekend at Gencon. Decline and Rats were so easy (parties of 6 level 3-4 characters) that we took little damage through the entire scenarios and really never felt all that threatened.

Don't get me wrong. I hate for PCs to die. I'm not into that. I'm just saying that when you're not even really taking much damage in an entire scenario... it's hard to feel like you're challenged.

In Cassomir's locker (with a Ranger 3, Cleric 4, Fighter 5, Cleric 4, Rogue 4, and Wizard 5), I pushed for us to play UP on the Tier 6-7 level.
We nearly all died in the first encounter (a brutal one to be sure, compounded with abyssmal die rolls), and were challenged sorely in the second fight as well.
This ended up with a hard fought scenario and a feeling of true accomplishment (and a nice GP reward).

Guess I just wanted to ask what others thought...
Between all of the new bells and whistles of PRPG characters (which I LOVE, BTW) and the INSANITY of power attacking w/ a two handed weapon and 18 STR, did any of you feel that the PFS games at Gencon (maybe only the Tier 3-4 ones?) were cake walks?
I'm wondering if it's only me who thinks that perhaps the adventures need to be amped up a bit in difficulty to match the more powerful PRPG characters...?

MSG

Even Season 0 scenarios can still be a huge challenge.

I ran an unofficial game on Saturday night at GenCon for several players using non-legal PFS characters through Mists of Mwangi. They made 5th level PCs under the same basic restrictions as the current conversion rules, except they ignored factions and prestige. I was afraid the scenario wouldn't challenge them, but they were completely wiped of resources before even getting to the first encounter. They made it through two of the five scripted encounters and then left, dragging their unconscious rogue in their wake. I was worried they'd wipe the floor with the scenario, but it was more than enough of a challenge for them. This may not be true of all modules, and might be a different story once the Bestiary is out, but even just using 3.5 statblocks and SRD monster stats, this was still a pretty tough scenario for PFRPG PCs.

As for PFRPG-native scenarios, I thought the two higher level adventures (Sniper in the Deep & Drow of the Darklands Pyramids) were both very challenging. Sometimes the tier makes the difference, as well as party makeup, dice rolls, and specific decisions both on the players' and GM's side of the screen. There are so many variables in play that it's really tough to say what is and isn't going to be a challenge in anything resembling a universal context.

It's not the ruleset, I recon. Some scenarios just are deadlier than others.

Though the other problem is how the high-tier encounters are made ... an increase in the amount of mooks hardly counts as a challenge. We had a 3-4 tier party with some level 1 characters playing the tier 3-4. Despite this the GM used tier 6-7 encounters in place of some and yet even then they were a breeze.

I can see that some scenarios are easier than others. I'm going to guess that they're still getting a feel for exactly how the updates to the rules affect the challenges in the scenarios and will probably improve over time.

Given that I have a body count on Shipyard Rats, I'm not willing to say that it's necessarily super-easy.

I played 5 scenarios, Shipyard Rats, Cassomir's Locker, Decline of Glory, Drow of the Darklands Pyramid, and Tide of Morning at Gen Con 09 this year. All were played as 1st level characters, except of course the Drow one, which we used pregens for. This is my first time ever playing any PFS scenarios, and my first time playing any Pathfinder modules of any kind.

I am a tactical and knowledgable player, as were about...half of the other gamers I shared a table with during my time at Gen Con. And I have to say, ALL of these scenarios were far, far too easy. They were complete cakewalks, and extremely hard for anyone with a solid grasp of 3.5 tactics to screw up. There was absolutely no sense of danger in any of these, even WHEN half the group were completely ignorant of the right thing to do and were basically just wasting their turns doing things that had a 5-10% chance of accomplishing anything worthwhile. The 2-3 players who were managing the fight adequately was more than enough to crush all opposition we faced.

I thought the stories and the roleplaying opportunities were great, and I overall had fun, but I need to say this again:

THEY WERE ALL FAR, FAR TOO EASY. People getting TPK'ed, which I've read about, simply blows my mind. It would take truly poorly built characters, with bad tactics, combined with historically bad dice luck for this to happen in the scenarios I played.

It kinda took the fun out of some of the fights when you realize how easy it all was. The most fun parts for me was getting to roleplay with the other characters, and accomplishing my faction goals. The fights were SET UP to be interesting, but were far too easy.

I know a lot of people are going to disagree, and say how lucky we were, or whatever. Or that I'm exaggerating, but I am not. There are a lot of tactically minded people out there for whom these things were not a challenge. I know more casual players might enjoy the difficulty of these, but there is a subset of players out there as well who wants something more. I strongly believe there should be like an option to play a "nightmare" difficulty, or play up in tiers whenever you want to, or some scenarios released that are specifically designed to be dangerous and rewarding. Even if the rewards weren't greater than the regular modules, many people would really like the chance to test ourselves against some challenging content. Maybe just make the tier 1-2 stuff easy as to not drive off new players with TPKs and really ramp things up for levels 3+?

That's just my two cents, I really hope someone reads this and actually looks at what a COMPETENT group of WELL PLANNED characters working together can accomplish with PRPG rules, and make scenarios that can challenge them in the future.

Thanks, Smckenna.

That's what I was trying to say.

My group always included a sniper ranger, a power attacking great
weapon fighter and usually two (one Torag summoner, one Asmodeus controller) clerics, plus whoever else was at our table.

With good tactics/planning, smart resource conservation, and the INSANE damage throughput of a power attacking figher w/ a two handed weapon, we really did a number on the enemies in #24 and #29.

The best parts of the games then ended up being:
1) good stories: nice locations, memorable scenarios, flavorful enemies/themes, good maps/figures/etc.
2) good comrades: fun people to play with, especially from competing factions
3) good GMs: well prepared, fun, fair, knowledgable, friendly folks interested in making sure everyone has a good time
4) good Roleplaying: lots of fun impromptu RPing at all of my tables, mostly in-character and in-faction. Good interplay between 'disagreeing' factions/races/classes/etc. Players with the sense to engage in in-character squabbles, but seem to still generally enjoy the company of the players themselves.

I'm not going to stop playing PFS.
I like my character, I like the rules, I like the scenarios, I like the process of the whole thing. I just think some additional attention to balance in the game MIGHT be necessary... I don't know if the issue arises for the killer mods last year (Hyrda's Fang, Silken Caravan... I'm looking at you) or my first assumption that PRPG characters are simply more powerful is true, or what the real cause is... just that I observed an imbalance and thought more people might have similar opinions.
Thanks for validating that, Smckenna.
Any other opinions?

MSG

Okay, so, so far, here are the complaints I've heard about the scenarios at Gen Con:

1) They were waaaaaay too easy. We just smoked through them.
2) They were waaaaaay too hard. We all died. Multiple times.
3) They were juuuuuust right.

Now that's a difficult data set to process. ;-)

I'll apply a more critical eye to future scenarios and shoot for #3 more than #1 and #2.

Okay, so, so far, here are the complaints I've heard about the scenarios at Gen Con:

1) They were waaaaaay too easy. We just smoked through them.
2) They were waaaaaay too hard. We all died. Multiple times.
3) They were juuuuuust right.

Now that's a difficult data set to process. ;-)

I'll apply a more critical eye to future scenarios and shoot for #3 more than #1 and #2.

Haha, you're so right about it!

Generalizing that "all scenarios are easy" is a flawed one, but there are some that are deadlier than others. For example Blood at Dralkard Manor is by far the deadliest, then comes The Trouble With Secrets (though the conversion might have helped the issue).

Okay, so, so far, here are the complaints I've heard about the scenarios at Gen Con:

1) They were waaaaaay too easy. We just smoked through them.
2) They were waaaaaay too hard. We all died. Multiple times.
3) They were juuuuuust right.

Now that's a difficult data set to process. ;-)

I'll apply a more critical eye to future scenarios and shoot for #3 more than #1 and #2.

I found the mods I found easy were easy because we ran the wrong tier. The group was level 5 but with 7 players and we opted for the 3-4 tier not 6-7. The D(G)M asked and I chickened out but we had to AWESOME DPS machines and myself and a buddy was playing 2 healing / defensive clerics.....We SOOOO needed the higher tier of 6-7 w/ #30.

I had the advantage of having all 4 core classes at each table for 5 sessions expect once we didn't have a rouge. 6 players and all core classes covered and 2 cleric's every time made the modules easier.

I think they are fine but you if have to work something out JOSH try this.

Take Options 1-3. Added them togather divide by 3. What ever number the equals use that option ;-)

Unfortunately I think the reason for getting so many different responses is that for different people, the same scenario may be easy or difficult. I'm willing to acknowledge there might be some difficult season 0 scenarios I didn't play, but I did play in 5 at gen-con and thought they were all pushovers, combat wise, across the board.

The thing is, different players have different expectations about what's hard or not, and I really think there should be something built into the system that lets you tailor your difficulty to what the group wants and what the group can handle. Group 1: fighter, fighter, cleric, cleric, wizard, sorceror is going to have a hell of a lot more success than Group 2: rogue, rogue, ranger, ranger, druid, monk. Especially at low levels. Then you factor in the experience with the system, etc and the gap grows even wider.

Also, some players would really prefer to play a game where they can't die, where for others the risk of losing a character to a bad decision or a bad die roll is part of what makes the game so exciting.

I don't think one size fits all really works tbh, because no matter what some players are going to feel like the missions were too hard or easy, one way or the other. Just giving players the OPTION to do a 'hard-mode' version of a mod or whatever would be a huge plus for our group.

Group 2: rogue, rogue, ranger, ranger, druid, monk. Especially at low levels.

To say nothing of Group 3: bard, ranger, druid, monk. It's almost impossible for the tier system to feel just right for both four characters of the lowest level (say 4 first level characters) and six characters of the highest level (say 6 second level characters).

However, the Season 1 Guide would specifically calculate the APL of the 6 second level characters as 3rd level. This would give them the option of playing tier 4-5, as I understand it. And there were GM's at Gen Con who encouraged this for some of their groups, because they knew tier 1-2 would be relatively boring.

I found the mods I found easy were easy because we ran the wrong tier. The group was level 5 but with 7 players and we opted for the 3-4 tier not 6-7. The D(G)M asked and I chickened out but we had to AWESOME DPS machines and myself and a buddy was playing 2 healing / defensive clerics.....We SOOOO needed the higher tier of 6-7 w/ #30.

I tried to push you guys to the 6-7 tier but noooooo. :) No worries though, I can completely understand the hesitation. From a GM standpoint, I think most of the "too easy" issues really did stem largely from the tier system, but as in as was stated above, not a problem with the tier system itself. With that said, with #30 specifically (as I ran that several times) I think the lower tiers could be bumped up a smidge for the convention setting. That of course gets counter-balanced by the fact that if I run it at my local game store and we only have four players without covering the four monster food groups, it could be much more difficult.

So yup, completely subjective to the group playing it. :) You're never going to please everyone. There's always going to be the group that blows through it and another group that gets slaughtered.

Did you guys note that whenever you have 6+ players the average party level should be increased by 1? So if your APL was 5 with 7 players, then you would treat it as 6 and play in the 6-7 tier.

Did you guys note that whenever you have 6+ players the average party level should be increased by 1? So if your APL was 5 with 7 players, then you would treat it as 6 and play in the 6-7 tier.

They actually had several level 4s in the game. The APL with the number of players granting the +1 was 5. This gave them the option between tiers.

It seems that at least a few of the complaints with the Gencon mods being too hard were from 1st level parties. Is this correct? Did any higher level groups have TPKs or multiple deaths?

If this (my understanding that some extra difficulty was experienced by the 1st level crowd) is true, what about re-doing the Tier system a little:

Make some mods available in Tier 1 (all first level characters). Intentionally build these mods to cater to the low level crowd, maybe don't even make them available in higher Tier values. These mods would be popular at cons and at FLGS where they are starting out groups for PFS. Make these mods with a special section on how to balance the challenge of the encounters w/ 1-3 2nd level characters at the table (their more experienced friends) and the number of TPKs and frustration level of new players might plummet.

Shift all other Tiers up to reflect this basic change.

_or_

Keep the same system. Add some text in the low Tier mods for each combat encounter to help GMs with the unique challenge of very low level characters. Put a little more effort into suggestions about how to scale encounters for small parties or groups with one or two more powerful characters. Take extra care not to build encounters that include level 1/2 characters and enemies with DR, miss chances, abilities with high save DCs, and maybe even clerics that channel negative energy.
I don't think these caveats are as necessary for higher level groups, but between low level, player inexperience, and poor class balance, it seems to me that Tier 1 has special challenges.

I love the varied settings and the stories behind the PFS scenarios I've played. Most GMs I've had are flexible and smart and change stuff on the fly to help keep the PCs alive and help keep them challenged. I guess I just think that there SHOULD be a middle ground that won't cost any more to help both sides: low tier survival and mid tier challenge.

MSG

Okay, so, so far, here are the complaints I've heard about the scenarios at Gen Con:

1) They were waaaaaay too easy. We just smoked through them.
2) They were waaaaaay too hard. We all died. Multiple times.
3) They were juuuuuust right.

Now that's a difficult data set to process. ;-)

I'll apply a more critical eye to future scenarios and shoot for #3 more than #1 and #2.

I think we are collectively enjoying the "happy medium" of scenarios which are not just a waste of time for a group of optimized characters, but at the same time not an automatic wipe for a group of non-optimized characters. There really is quite a difference in power level between a character which is well-built to excel at the mechanics of combat and a character which is put together to match a specific roleplaying persona. Barring hard numbers, I would say the current anecdotal data indicates the current scenarios as a group are at about the right difficulty level.

With an eye towards future scenarios, here are a couple constructive suggestions. I get the impression that some scenarios are written with a specific sub-tier or APL in mind, and are then expanded (mainly by modifying the combat encounters) to include other sub-tiers. This makes the scenario accessible to more PFS players, and theoretically more people BUY it. Sometimes this is done well, and sometimes not. I think this can be part of the problem leading to responses 1 & 2 above.

In addition to making sure all sub-tiers are getting level-appropriate encounters, it might be a good idea to add GM options to buff or debuff the encounters. Many GMs do this already, but not all GMs are equally skilled at doing so. Some have (IIRC from the posts above) arbitrarily bumped up the tier, but some might choose to play it through by the book. Adding specific options right in the scenario might help the less experienced/more timid GMs fine-tune the encounters for their table. It doesn't have to be a whole lot of text, either. For example:
Encounter #2
(Sub-Tier A-B)
4 gnolls (abbreviated stat block)
- Buff - Add two more gnolls.
- Debuff - Remove one gnoll.
(Sub-Tier X-Y) [Some Other Foes]
2 ogres (abbreviated stat block)
- Buff - Add a third ogre.
- Debuff - Use 2 bugbears instead. (abbreviated stat block)

Obviously, substituting different monsters is going to take more space than adding or subtracting from their numbers unless you leave off the stat blocks. Also, you'd probably need some text explaining this buff/debuff business in the scenario and in the Guide. If you felt it was beneficial, you could quantify their use, like:
"If the party slaughtered the ogres in Encounter #1 in only 1 or 2 rounds, buff the remaining encounters. If the combat took longer than 5 rounds, debuff encounters #3 and #6. If they were all killed by two measly ogres, rewind the scenario to the beginning of encounter #1, and run it at Sub-Tier A-B."

If this seems like a good idea, but there is concern about space, personally I could do without the interior art. #6 Black Water, for example, has a picture of a monster on page 8 which takes up 2/3 of the page. This may be an exception, since it's the only scenario I have personally bought so far, but if interior art is commonplace, think about reducing/removing it. These scenarios often get printed out, after all, and if I want to show a picture of the monster, I'll just bust out the MM or Bestiary that I'm required to have with me anyway. Please note that I'm not talking about maps. Maps are good. Keep the maps. If there was a way that combat maps with 1" squares could be included, that would be fantastic, but I doubt that's really doable.

Finally, since these are products which get reviewed, I think you would see some return on your investment for the extra time it takes to reduce or eliminate TPKs and walkthroughs. Honestly, when looking through the scenarios, I didn't even click on those with 3 stars to read the blurb. The average quality of Paizo products has set the bar higher than that. Maybe I'll get around to buying #13 later, but if I'm only buying one scenario today, it's much more likely to be #5 or #8. And if I played through a scenario and thought it was poor, there is little chance I'll buy it and run it as a GM.

Having said all that (sorry so long), PFS is great, Paizo rules, and I love you Josh! Wait, strike that last bit...

Bob Hopp

Ha ha, postmonster! You tried to eat my enormous post because I took longer than 30 minutes to write it, but I copied it to my clipboard! Take this! CTRL-V

EDIT: As I read further, I see that smckenna77 already posted the same idea I did only much more succinctly. I agree with Derek Poppink that there's a huge gulf in power between 4 starting characters and 5 (to avoid the APL bump) 2nd level PCs. Goatlord's idea for Tier 1 is a good one, but I think you could still get by with making Tier 1-5 scenarios for sub-tiers 1, 2-3, and 4-5, for example. In terms of a ratio or percentage increase in power/survivability, characters make the biggest jump when they go from 1st to 2nd. I know that the transitions to a new level of spells are big too, but I still think level 1 would be best served by a sub-tier all its own.

Karui Kage wrote:

Did you guys note that whenever you have 6+ players the average party level should be increased by 1? So if your APL was 5 with 7 players, then you would treat it as 6 and play in the 6-7 tier.

They actually had several level 4s in the game. The APL with the number of players granting the +1 was 5. This gave them the option between tiers.

Ah you are right CullynDragon; Jhalad and I were still level 4 for that one. The scenario we played before you DM'ed us(#29) we were almost TPK'ed so we were a tad more hesitant.

Having the two little brothers at the game (The Bash Brothers) plus their dad the Halfling Barbarian (Who look just like Hagrid from Harry Potter Movies) made the game easier.

You did great and it wasn’t a weak module. Besides two pure defensive clerics builds keeps everyone alive! Granted I think we used one heal spell......it was glorious no matter what!

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Curses!