[PGRiS] Night of the Walking Dead PF1 (closed)

Game Master djpika

About Sebastian Amanar wrote:

hp 18 (2d6+6)

Or did we choose max HP for first *two* levels; or allow a roll option at some point.

I can't recall how I ended up with the max figure.

I went looking for the character creation discussion on discord, but nothing came up :(

If I knew it was going to run this long, I would have copied the character creation questions into the game description. Did anyone else see it?

From what I see, everyone else had PFS standard. Maybe Sebastian made a deal with some nefarious entity that gave him Max at both levels? ;-)

Anyway, I'll have a build to share very soon. Tonight, I think!

Ok, looks like a VERY good time for me to arrive. ;-)

DM, the most pressing Q to help me finish my build is crafting. Knowing your thoughts on why I'm here would help too. I'd initially planned to my character be from Karcau, but I'm open to other options. That mostly just helps with RP and finalizing backstory.

Looking forward to diving it!

Following the same path as the party to Marais d'Tarascon isn't required. Whatever background/backstory you can come up with can probably be worked to have you arrive at the inn. You can be travelling by ship for some reason, get lost in the woods, etc. I can fill in the story on how you arrive at the Inn.

High level, where am I? Thoughts on why I'd show up? Make sense for me to be a Pathfinder still?

You don't even have to be a Pathfinder. You can be a local opportunist that caught wind of the job and went after it yourself; you can be an agent of the Aspis Consortium seeking to recruit the target; a simple fisherman that got knocked off a boat in a rainstorm; a halfling slave on the run, escaping from Cheliax.

If you want to be local, you can be from the neighboring town of Port d'Elhour on an errand to Marais d'Tarascon. Or both, where you arrived in Port d'Elhour some time ago but haven't been able to find your way back yet, so you've been taking odd jobs to survive.

If everyone else has PFS standard I'll adjust to that.

I can't remember the character creation rules either, but Manfri appears to be built to PFS standards.

I vaguely recall starting gold being different, because we began at level 2. I'm guessing standard WBL from the PF Core Rulebook(?)

OK! Autumn Longbriar is ready for your review, and–if you don't have questions or concerns–to show up.

Backstory'll be fleshed out a bit more, but I think Autumn had to leave the last town in a hurry (when someone–quite unfairly, of course, accused her of cheating at cards), and recently ended up here.

Her biggest passion is dancing, and her biggest weakness is a sometimes difficult-to-control appetite for risks and thrills. The latter shows up particularly in her gambling, and sometimes in pocketing something that doesn't, strictly speaking, belong to her. In the past it also showed up in a tendency to get into fights...but now she's trying to follow Chaldira Zuzaristan's example and focus her mischief on those who deserve it.

Those are broad strokes. More to come...but her build's in her profile now. (I copied the full text of her Spheres of Guile and Might talents, since they're new to many folks...and the Guile ones are still fairly new to me too.)

reference image here.

Cheers,

Hey, I found the GM’s character creation rules in the Recruitment tab.

I think keeping it simple and using PFS rules for the rest is fine - 20 point buy, 2 traits, static HP per die, etc. PGRiS seems most comfortable in that zone so using that as the baseline should get us running sooner rather than later.

Better late than never??

Thanks!

OK! Autumn Longbriar is ready for your review, and–if you don't have questions or concerns–to show up.

Backstory'll be fleshed out a bit more, but I think Autumn had to leave the last town in a hurry (when someone–quite unfairly, of course, accused her of cheating at cards), and recently ended up here.

Her biggest passion is dancing, and her biggest weakness is a sometimes difficult-to-control appetite for risks and thrills. The latter shows up particularly in her gambling, and sometimes in pocketing something that doesn't, strictly speaking, belong to her. In the past it also showed up in a tendency to get into fights...but now she's trying to follow Chaldira Zuzaristan's example and focus her mischief on those who deserve it.

Those are broad strokes. More to come...but her build's in her profile now. (I copied the full text of her Spheres of Guile and Might talents, since they're new to many folks...and the Guile ones are still fairly new to me too.)

reference image here.

Cheers,

Try to think of motivations and fears. Is Autumn brave? At what level does the thrill stop?

For a starting city, were you planning on sticking with Karcau?

Here is the general idea on how you ended up in Marais d'Tarascon:

When you left town, you boarded a paddleboat/riverboat. The boat had shows as well as gambling. At some point in the trip, the night air turned cool, bringing a heavy fog that surrounded the vessel. The boat got turned around in the fog and eventually ended up in Port d'Elhour.

From there, you made your way to Marais d'Tarascon.

Timing-wise, you would have arrived at Port d'Elhour before the rest of the group. You can decide if you were in Marais d'Tarascon before the party arrived or after. Feel free to embellish the story on the boat as you see fit. One idea is that people started disappearing mysteriously from the boat. Arriving in a town no one heard of was alarming, but it was better than staying on the ship.

Great. Let's say that Autumn got free passage by performing as a dancer on the boat but got annoyed by some of the wealthier patrons. When she tried to fleece them at the gambling tables, a few got suspicious and things on the boat started heating up for her, making her think it was time to get off board fast.

There might've been a passenger who disappeared already by that point (or not) but if so Autumn wasn't really tracking it, and it had probably been hushed. The one person that she was aware of disappearing was one of the other dancers onboard: Carius, an amusingly sarcastic Chelaxian fellow.

Autumn snuck away in Port d'Elhour–mostly to avoid punishment, but also hoping to perhaps find Carius. Once she was making her way through the little town she realized something was weird, but didn't really have a choice to go back at that point. She arrived in Marais d'Tarascon a few days ago and keeps hearing creepy stories but hasn't seen anything truly undead yet...until now, when she steps back into the Inn looking for dinner and sees this fight underway.

I'll add more color to Autumn's backstory and personality as we go, but for now: She's fairly brave, and as a halfling kid from a poor family she was used to defending herself from people bigger than her on the streets of Karcau. When she was in her mid-teens, she actually got over her head in a gang (at first drawn in my the promise of a group that would look out for one another...but eventually realizing she couldn't hang with them). By the time she was 18 she knew she needed out, and just then fortune smiled: her uncle Turrey Butterhill, a warpriest of Chaldira Zuzaristan who lived mostly in Varisia but sometimes traveled with caravans came through, saw the trouble she was in, and managed to help her extricate herself from the gang and go (mostly) straight.

She started working as a dancer, and was good at it, but the pay was never great...and her fingers sometimes got itchy (but mostly in situations where she went unnoticed, or was able to proclaim her innocence...or just was able to get away quickly). Karcau's big enough that she has both friends and enemies back there, but she'd like to get back.

In terms of motivations: uncle Turrey was truly brave, as well as being a shining optimist., and she aspires to be like him. She has the bravery of a street kid who knows she's tough and has won fights against people bigger than her...but she's never killed before, and never encountered the undead. And we'll see how much her tendency to get antsy/impatience and her desire for thrills get the better of her. ;-)

FYI, any of all are welcome to join my dance. You can read all the details in the Performance Sphere, but here's the skinny.

Allies within 10 feet of me may either spend a move action and move up to half their speed, or take a 5-foot step, to gain the benefits of your dance until the start of their next turn. (Or in this case, use your Move to move up to 1/2 your speed (max) to get within 10' of me).

Anyone who joins the dance gets the benefits of it for that round. In this case:

1) Guarded Twist (dance) - if you join the dance you can us my Dance roll (a 32(!) since I got a Nat 20 on it) to freely move through it's space without triggering AoOs this round

More details of it:
A creature can pick up an item from the ground, retrieve a stored item, sheathe a weapon, or stand up from prone as part of the movement required to join or maintain this dance. Dancers taking the actions listed above do not provoke an attack of opportunity (including when they initially take the action to become a dancer).

Additionally, whenever you begin or maintain a dance with this talent, roll a Perform (dance) check with a circumstance bonus equal to the number of dancers, which cannot exceed your operative ability modifier (minimum +1). All dancers may use your Perform (dance) check result in place of any Acrobatics check to avoid provoking an attack of opportunity for as long as they continue the dance.

2) Synchronized Rhythm - can use +13(including +2 morale) on any of the below skills this round

Details:
Whenever a dancer attempts an Acrobatics check made to balance, jump, soften a fall, or wall hop, Climb check, Escape Artist check made to squeeze, Fly check, Sleight of Hand check, or Swim check, they can choose to use your Perform (dance) bonus when making such a check, gaining a morale bonus equal to the number of dancers within your dance (maximum bonus equal to your operative modifier). Any penalties they are suffering to the check still apply.

@Autumn - I spent over an hour trying to deconstruct your character sheet last night and I still couldn't figure out several things.

When you make replacements/substitutions, can you please explicitly list the replacement out in your sheet? Without these call outs, it makes it extremely difficult to figure out where everything is coming from.

Why do you have 16 skills with 29 ranks? As a rogue, you get 8 skills. You replaced these 8 with Trade Tradition, which says "if you choose a trade tradition, you do not gain any of the class skills listed for your class". I see that you have various syntax to indicate some break down, but no key. The Trade Tradition should provide a list of skills you now gain access to, but how are you coming up with 29 ranks? You should be getting the (8 - 1 for Int) per level + the free ranks from Base Sphere(Associated Skill) access?

What trade tradition did you take? Nothing on the wiki maps to the 4 Trade Talents you list and the associated skills that would be replaced.

1. Trade: Cutpurse
2. Trade: Dungeon Delver
3. Trade: Gambler
4. Trade: Mage Hunter

How are you gaining access to the rest of the Performance Sphere? "A base trade tradition will typically contain 3 skill talents: two (trade) talents and a base sphere. Certain skill-oriented feats may substitute for this base sphere." When a Trade Talent is listed, it does not appear to provide the base sphere abilities.

The only way this could work is if the Trade Tradition provided the "Automatic Skill Sphere: Performance (Dance package)" and the Adroit Bonus Skill Talent was a sphere instead of a sphere talent.

Is this Trade Tradition defined in the book that's not posted on the Wiki?

How are you converting the Racial Ability -> Run feat to a Sphere equivalent?

What is "Virtuoso Operative" and the associated modifications?

@Autumn - I spent over an hour trying to deconstruct your character sheet last night and I still couldn't figure out several things.

When you make replacements/substitutions, can you please explicitly list the replacement out in your sheet? Without these call outs, it makes it extremely difficult to figure out where everything is coming from.

Hey, sure, always feel free to ask. Spheres of Might and Guile are both wonderful systems, but a lot to grok all at once. I’ll spell out what I’ve done as best I can…and it’s certainly possible I’ve made some errors along the way so I appreciate the review.

Why do you have 16 skills with 29 ranks? As a rogue, you get 8 skills. You replaced these 8 with Trade Tradition, which says "if you choose a trade tradition, you do not gain any of the class skills listed for your class". I see that you have various syntax to indicate some break down, but no key. The Trade Tradition should provide a list of skills you now gain access to, but how are you coming up with 29 ranks? You should be getting the (8 - 1 for Int) per level + the free ranks from Base Sphere(Associated Skill) access?

Where do all those ranks come from?

I’ll also add this key to my profile:
* ranks granted by a sphere
^ background skill ranks
// as you annotations, I added the marks but forgot to spell out the key. Sorry about that! :-/

I’ll list the skills I get free ranks in (with the Sphere that grants them) here:
- Acro (Athletics: Run)
- Bluff (Fencing)
- Climb (Athletics: Climb)
- Escape Artist (Body Control)
- Perform: Dance (Performance)
- Sleight of Hand (Scoundrel)
- Stealth (Scout)
// this is more skill ranks than I’ve gotten free for any other Spheres character, but that’s partly because, as a rogue, I’ve gone for the more skill-focused spheres instead of some of the more narrowly martial spheres. (It’s also somewhat because of adding in Spheres of Guile (SoG) and Spheres of Might (SoM) together…but in this case, I only get two of the above from SoG.)

My background ranks are
- Appraise : 1, Perform Comedy: 1. ,Profession Gambler: 2. = 4 points (2/lvl)

In addition, I have 6 skills that I’ve put two ranks in (Bluff, Diplomacy, Disable Device, Perception, Sense Motive, UMD) and 2 that I’ve put one rank in (Intim, Disguise). Total = 14 skill points (8 Rogue -1 INT = 7 *2 lvls)

…actually, as I was doublechecking just now I realized that I’d missed that the Fencing Sphere gives ranks in Bluff…so believe it or not I’d mistakenly listed two too *few* ranks. I’ll update it by making Intimidate and Disguise 2 ranks instead of 1 each.

What trade tradition did you take? Nothing on the wiki maps to the 4 Trade Talents you list and the associated skills that would be replaced.

1. Trade: Cutpurse
2. Trade: Dungeon Delver
3. Trade: Gambler
4. Trade: Mage Hunter

How are you gaining access to the rest of the Performance Sphere? "A base trade tradition will typically contain 3 skill talents: two (trade) talents and a base sphere. Certain skill-oriented feats may substitute for this base sphere." When a Trade Talent is listed, it does not appear to provide the base sphere abilities.

The only way this could work is if the Trade Tradition provided the "Automatic Skill Sphere: Performance (Dance package)" and the Adroit Bonus Skill Talent was a sphere instead of a sphere talent.

Is this Trade Tradition defined in the book that's not posted on the Wiki?

Each trade tradition grants either 2 trade talents + 1 base sphere (if the class gives four or fewer skill points/level) or 4 trade talents + and 2 base spheres (or 1 base, and 1 utility talent from that base sphere) for classes like Rogue that give > 4 SP/lvl. (The SoG turn for classes with up to 4 ranks/lvl = Competent, and for 5+ = Adroit.)

The book lists a lot of examples, but one can define one’s own as well, according to the above rules. In my case, I took the 4 trade traditions you noted, and then two base spheres: Performance, and Body Control. For Performance, I chose the Dance package and Entwining Prance.

The Grifter archetype trades ½ of one’s rogue talents + rogue’s edge to gain the Virtuoso progression. At L2, that gets me 2 general SoG talents +1 utility talent, listed on my sheet but I’ll repeat them here:

L1 - Performance: Performance Mastery
L2 - Performance: Guarded Twist
L2 [util] - Performance: Synchronized Rhythm

How are you converting the Racial Ability -> Run feat to a Sphere equivalent?

Spheres of Might (and SoG) has the concept of an “Associated Feat” for a sphere. Sometimes the feat and the sphere give exactly the same benefit; other times it’s slightly different. In either case, Spheres lets you, whenever you’d be granted a feat that is associated with a sphere or talent, to instead get the sphere (or talent) that’s associated with that feat. (Often, to not do so would make for some weird interractions.)

What is "Virtuoso Operative" and the associated modifications?

There are basically 3 progressions for Spheres of Guile (listed in the Using Spheres of Guile page). Virtuoso is the fastest of the three progressions.

- - -

I hope the above helps! If it’s still confusing–or if you think I’ve got something wrong, or there’s just something you don’t think’ll work well in your game–don’t hesitate to let me know!

I'm being terse here because it's late, but I wanted to post some things that stood out:

There are basically 3 progressions for Spheres of Guile (listed in the Using Spheres of Guile page). Virtuoso is the fastest of the three progressions.

But you're not a Virtuoso level operative. The grifter is a journeyman.

Skill Expertise (Ex)

This replaces the rogue talents gained at 2nd, 6th, 10th, 14th, and 18th level.

RE:

The book lists a lot of examples, but one can define one’s own as well, according to the above rules. In my case, I took the 4 trade traditions you noted, and then two base spheres: Performance, and Body Control. For Performance, I chose the Dance package and Entwining Prance.

Yes, the book allows for the creation of new Trade Traditions, but these are in the realm of the GM, not the player.

Creating New Trade Traditions

All of the bonus talents granted by a trade tradition to characters of adroit rank should be either base spheres or [utility] talents from spheres automatically granted by that trade tradition. Two of them are generally (trade) talents.

There's customizing by using the spheres system, and then there's cherry-picking the elements of the system. I prefer to use the defined elements before stepping into the home brew area of a 3rd party system.

Right, but then at the bottom of the archetype it says

Greater Training
The grifter may choose to lose rogue’s edge to gain a virtuoso skill talent progression instead. He may not take this option if he possesses an archetype that would alter or replace rogue’s edge.

This (optionally) replaces rogue’s edge.

...I can make it clearer on my profile if you like that I've chosen that option.

EDIT--

And terse is fine, especially since I'm realizing that you allowing 3p is creating a lot more work for you...and I won't be surprised if you help me discover some mistake I've made.

EDIT 2--

Ahhh. Yes, it's DM's discretion. I haven't played in a game that allowed Spheres but didn't allow creating traditions so I didn't think to ask...but if it's important to you, let me look at the pre-made traditions. Hopefully I can change it without charging too much. I'll at least take a look.

Hey, I hadn't really looked into the predefined trade traditions (as, honestly, every game I've encountered that has allowed Spheres content allows creation of traditions). I looked. I think I'd have to do a major recreation of my character. (As written, they really push toward particular backstories, and there isn't a way I can find to have both the ability to disarm magical traps AND to have key skills like Stealth and Acrobatics, let alone to be able to dance.)

Are you concerned that Autumn is too powerful? If so, I'd love to work with you to bring her power level to what you're wanting...and/or to agree to tweak as needed, over time. (My goal is always to have the game work well for all.)

Happy to discuss concerns here or (maybe easier) on Discord PM; I'll ping you there.

If no custom traditions is a hard requirement I'll respect that, but I may need several days to rebuild.

I'll be traveling on Friday, July 21, and unable to post. Botting instructions are in my character sheet if waiting for me to catch up over the weekend would hamper the flow of the game.

Here's where documentation of character building is an issue. You've built a character that essentially replaces every aspect of a character; even then, those replacements go back and change previous items. And then you're expecting others to look at it with nothing but the wiki. The wiki is a terrible source for cross checking a build; even the search is broken. It's not linear, and even with a "how to use" section added, it's extremely light weight and skips over sections. I've already spent 3-4 hours on the build and that's more than I really need to do. It's also not fair to the rest of the players because that's time I can allocate to running the game and moving everyone forward.

Right, but then at the bottom of the archetype it says

Greater Training
The grifter may choose to lose rogue’s edge to gain a virtuoso skill talent progression instead. He may not take this option if he possesses an archetype that would alter or replace rogue’s edge.

This (optionally) replaces rogue’s edge.

...I can make it clearer on my profile if you like that I've chosen that option.

EDIT--

And terse is fine, especially since I'm realizing that you allowing 3p is creating a lot more work for you...and I won't be surprised if you help me discover some mistake I've made.

EDIT 2--

Ahhh. Yes, it's DM's discretion. I haven't played in a game that allowed Spheres but didn't allow creating traditions so I didn't think to ask...but if it's important to you, let me look at the pre-made traditions. Hopefully I can change it without charging too much. I'll at least take a look.

I allow 3rd party products to allow people to utilize things that might be sitting on shelves, but at the same time, I contain the use to the product to prevent the abuse of cross-product interactions that typically show up by power gamers/character optimizers. After all, the designers aren't looking at all gaming material that exists, just their own newly developed rule set. This includes home-brew and home-brew options/customization, especially without prior discussion.

The designers clearly made a choice to encapsulate Sphere Talents and Sphere access within an object called "Trade Traditions". If they intended to give direct access to Spheres and Sphere Talents (without the consumption of another resource), there would be no need for this layer.

Getting direct access to Spheres and Sphere Talents gives the character access to more desirable skills or skill combinations earlier in their career. For a 1-of low level game, this is especially problematic.

Allowing this now would be unfair to the other players who built their characters by more limiting standards.

@Bam/Manfri/Sebastian - I'll let you guys chime in here as well. Do you want Autumn to rebuild, using the system as intended? Or is it not worth it at this point?

The spheres system inherently gives a lot of abilities to characters early on; most with unlimited use per day. Skipping this limitation only adds to it (whereas the official Trade Traditions tend to include fluff or non-combat options that might not pop up as often). Overshadowing could happen.

My character is mostly built with PFS standards. It's more fun to play with an evenly balanced team. Ultimately, the build shouldn't require 3+ hours for a GM to understand. I know it's super fun to play with these ideas, but this build sounds like there's a lot of "too good to be true" going on.

Here's where documentation of character building is an issue. You've built a character that essentially replaces every aspect of a character; even then, those replacements go back and change previous items. And then you're expecting others to look at it with nothing but the wiki. The wiki is a terrible source for cross checking a build; even the search is broken. It's not linear, and even with a "how to use" section added, it's extremely light weight and skips over sections. I've already spent 3-4 hours on the build and that's more than I really need to do. It's also not fair to the rest of the players because that's time I can allocate to running the game and moving everyone forward.

Since I built a spheres character I'm thinking about what was different there, and if/how it worked. I find the Spheres wiki usable, but I did try to make my character sheet clear as to where things come from and linked source pages copiously, and also a build file that shows specific choices per level (class features, feats, skills, etc.). My hope is that this made a Spheres character easy to audit and understand (I certainly hope mine didn't take 3-4 hours!)

I do think sticking to the chosen material as written is important for balance. For this game so far, we haven't been choosing class features a-la carte with a loose notion of "dialing" power up and down arbitrarily. Assuming one has some confidence in the Spheres authors having put in the work to ensure balance designs, using classes as written generally prevents the need to tweak mechanics continuously. Sticking with as-written classes/system would seem the most straightforward option given how the game has run so far.

Thanks, I appreciate the feedback.

I 100% agree that Autumn is a lot to figure out, especially if one's not well versed with Spheres of Might (SoM) and Spheres of Guile (SoG). (While the Canny Scoundrel (SoM) and Grifter (SoG) archetypes were explicitly designed to work together, it means learning two new systems, which definitely increases complexity...and honestly SoG in particular is a complex system to learn.)

So she's definitely complex to understand. That's problem #1.

It's possible that she's also a bit more powerful than the other party martials, which seems like problem #2, maybe?

I'll take a quick (and I think relevant) aside to say that referring to creating a tradition as homebrew or going beyond the material as written is a misunderstanding of the system (and not related to either of those two problems). Sebastian actually *also* designed his own casting tradition–Somatic Casting x2 + Verbal + INT-based casting is NOT one of the standard traditions or even the sample custom casting traditions–but that's fine; it's not overpowered and I don't know of any DM who uses spheres who would bat an eye at PaleDim creating a custom casting tradition for Sebastian...because the spheres system gives clear rules for creating them, and assumes most players will. (Some DMs make all the casting traditions in their world themselves, perhaps because they're creating a world with unique lore tied to how magic works there...but that's the minority, in my experience, and from what I see in the Spheres Discord server.) Creating ones own traditions is so normal in Spheres that PaleDim didn't even realize he's done so. (That's why the premade ones are called "sample" traditions.)

I mention this not to be difficult, but because I want to make sure–if I'm going to rebuild–that I know what the DM's and party's goals are. If your goals are truly just not using a custom tradition, I think I *could* make that change...but I guarantee that wouldn't make a SoM + SoG character much easier to digest, and probably wouldn't lower my power level. (At the very least, if someone asked me to reduce my power level there are two other places I'd look at first, both in SoM.)

So if we're looking to reduce power, I'm happy to but also I'd love to hear a bit about guidelines (or what the concerns were), so I don't guess wrong and then have to build her up a 3rd time.

If we're looking to make her easier to digest, I think maybe I should drop SoG altogether, not just the custom tradition. (I was excited to try using SoG, but it could be on another game, not here.) That will cut the number of talents she has by a bit more than half so will clearly make her easier to read and digest, as well as reducing her versatility. The main issue with dropping SoG is that I was using SoG to get access to the ability to disable magical traps (which Canny Scoundrel loses). If we don't care about that, I can totally make that shift. If we DO think the ability to disarm magic traps is important I could either keep a custom trade tradition (but lose the SoG archetype, and lose any particular parts that yall let me know seemed problematic)...or if DM is OK with taking campaign traits I could pick trap finder...but since that's from an AP it wouldn't normally be allowed without an DM's exception.

Thoughts?

Problem #1 is using the spheres wiki.

Let's use Spheres of Guile as an example. In the first paragraph, it says that "Any character can gain skill talents at character creation in exchange for some of their class skills using an option called a trade tradition, or from the Extra Skill Talent feat."

Note that trade tradition is not capitalized, nor does it link to the definition. In fact, there is no indication that this is a Key Term to be used. Searching the rest of the page sees the use of trade tradition, but no where is this really defined. After looking in the spheres themselves showed nothing. The wiki search doesn't work, so you can't do that. Finally by chance I noticed it's buried in the bottom of a table under the heading "Other Rules", which makes it sound more like optional rather than a necessary component to use the system.

I hope the actual PDF does a better job of this, because this disorganization is a real time suck.

Problem #2 is your documentation.

There's very little left of the rogue with the selection of your two archetypes, which essentially grafts Skills of Guile and Skills of Might onto a d8 class. If these replacements were 1 for 1 ability replacements, it would be intuitive to figure out where the new abilities came from, like what happens for most archetypes. In this case, however, just looking at the end product does not indicate how you got there. This is/was compounded by not using the list of defined traditions.

Trade Tradition
1. Trade: Cutpurse
2. Trade: Dungeon Delver
3. Trade: Gambler
4. Trade: Mage Hunter
5. Performance (Dance): Entwining Prance
6. Body Control Sphere

Recall that you're playing with a party that does not have access to the document and aren't familiar with the system, so this short hand doesn't help much. Listing Trade for an archetype swap is poor word choice. What, you're trading an ability for Cutpurse? Which ability? Why Trade the first 4 and not the last 2? After looking at the rules further, what you're trying to distinguish here are Vocation Sphere -> Trade Talents from other Spheres and Sphere Talents.

The rules point to using an existing Trade Tradition, so the first inclination looking at this is which one did you use. The next step is to see how this list came about. Searching for these terms is painful again because of the wiki, so it required manually scrolling through sub-pages and manually querying via browser search, only to show that this list doesn't match. This lead to more digging before concluding it must be "home brewed".

Marking what else this Trade Tradition provides would be helpful. For example, listing the skills provided from the Trade Tradition -> Vocation Sphere -> Trade Talents. Especially since duplicate skills can increase the class skill bonus with that skill from +3 to +4.

---
Note: you have Skill Leverage listed here with some skills, but I don't believe you get access to these. A Trade Tradition does not give you Skill Leverage. The only thing I see is your 3rd level archetype ability:

Swindler (Ex)

This replaces danger sense.

And when you gain Skill Talents from leveling for Skill Expertise. Per the wiki, Whenever a character gains a skill talent, they must choose a skill sphere to spend it on. The first time a character spends a skill talent on a sphere, they gain that sphere’s base abilities rather than gaining any of the talents within the sphere. This is referred to as gaining a base sphere.

It's unclear if Trade Traditions give you all aspects of a base sphere or just the Skill Talent. I suspect Adroit Bonus Skill Talent: Bluster sphere or the Navigation sphere (Fleet Movement) talent, the former, a Skill Sphere, might be intended to give both, but the latter is a Skill Talent, and might give just the talent and not the associated Base Sphere benefits, including Skill Leverage.
---

RE:

Sebastian actually *also* designed his own casting tradition–Somatic Casting x2 + Verbal + INT-based casting is NOT one of the standard traditions or even the sample custom casting traditions–but that's fine; it's not overpowered

This isn't a fair comparison. I own Spheres of Power and the concept of Traditions isn't there. It looks like the "Ultimate" version revised the original and retroactively applied Traditions. I can't speak to which version Sebastian was looking at, but it certainly wasn't on my radar because it's not in the original version.

The standard traditions aren't really "defaults" or anchor choices, they're pretty much there to demonstrate direct translations of the PF1 standard classes. Otherwise the rules start up top with some simple choices to make. One way or another you have to put together a casting style for the character, and I opted not to take a PF1 standard translation. It's not overpowered because I used their prescribed boons and drawbacks framework.

Hey, thanks. Are those the only 2 problems, right now? If so, I think I can definitely help.

Re #1, I do have a copy of the PDF. I'll reach out to share with you personally. (And I agree with you, the Wiki makes some unintuitive/annoying choices...and the search is absolutely broken.) FYI, what I do to search the wiki I have a fave Google trick I use. Just go type into Google: "site:[URL] [search term(s)]", e.g. "site:http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com trade tradition".

Re #2, I'm happy to revise my documentation on my sheet. I hope you'll believe me that I tried to make it clear...but clearly I missed the mark. :-/ I also think–honestly–learning SoG is a bear, no matter what; I think it's a good system once you know it...but it's VERY complex. Like I said, if you'd like me to cut it, I'll totally understand. And if you think you're maybe fine with keeping it, let me know if you'd like me to answer Qs for you live. I'm happy to hop on Discord voice chat at a time that's mutually good. Before I revise my sheet though, I'd like to know if you have additional concerns. If so, I'll try to change those at the same time since that'll be more efficient for everyone.

One specific misunderstanding I can clear up now: it seems like when I wrote the word "trade", you thought that was me saying "I'm trading something for this". Is that right? If so...I can totally see that in hindsight, but it didn't occur to me. If you look at the rules for selecting one's trade tradition, one is required to select (4) "trade talents" from the vocation sphere. You'll see that Vocation has some talents that aren't "trade" talents and some that are. I called out (or tried to) which were the trade talents I selected, versus the base spheres (of which an adroit tradition gets two).

Another question you mentioned that I can answer for you: many talents grant skill leverage. For example, body control says "Skill Leverage: You unlock skill leverage with the Acrobatics and Escape Artist skills." Spheres (and talents within spheres) are the main ways to get skill leverage. In my case, I get skill leverage from the base Body Control and Performance spheres.

Re casting traditions, it may be worth you giving your book another look. The concept of traditions has *evolved* from the Original to the Ultimate rules, but you can read both the old and new version on the casting traditions page. The wiki has two tab labeled "Ultimate" and "Original" (listed right under the ToC). If you click on Original, it shows the original Casting Traditions language.

BTW, when I asked on the DDS Discord about guidance re: whether or not to allow players to design/propose a trade tradition, the very first Q was someone asking "Does your group use Spheres of Might or Spheres of Power? If so, how does it handle Martial Traditions or Casting Traditions?" and then, hearing what Sebastian's tradition is, saying, "That seems like a custom tradition, I think. So it makes sense you'd just allow custom martial and trade traditions to me
It doesn't make a significant difference in power level anyway". (Three other people weighed in as well, and all said more-or-less the same thing.) That doesn't mean you shouldn't make your own decision here; you're the DM...but if you're making it because you don't think of Casting Traditions and Trade Traditions in the same way, you've definitely got a minority opinion within the Spheres community. (One active member of the community points out "they say they are sample traditions, after all".)

The standard traditions aren't really "defaults" or anchor choices, they're pretty much there to demonstrate direct translations of the PF1 standard classes. Otherwise the rules start up top with some simple choices to make. One way or another you have to put together a casting style for the character, and I opted not to take a PF1 standard translation. It's not overpowered because I used their prescribed boons and drawbacks framework.

100% agreed! You did exactly what the designers intended: you looked at the sample traditions and the rules for building your own tradition, and you built one that suited your character. (And it's legit for a DM to allow whatever they want, including allowing custom traditions for Spheres of Power but not for Spheres of Might and/or Spheres of Guile–the Spheres systems all lean into DM authority–but fundamentally, from a design perspective, it's all the same.)

On my custom casting tradition (and picking a standard one if that makes all this easier):

What: Essentially sorcerer-like but INT-based

Looking over the "standard" choices it looks roughly like arcane/magus/wizard but without the prepared casting (for fewer bonus spell points).

The occultist would fit the basic mechanics of Sebastian's casting, and seems like it might also work well with him thematically. No-tradition would also be a reasonable choice (all of the sample SoP characters have no tradition: no drawbacks, no bonus spellpoints or boons).

Hey there,

I’ve re-created Manfri as a PFS character.

Part of his backstory explains a recent alignment shift to CG, inspired by the example of an honest, hardworking warpriest of Torag, and influenced by how he might eventually behave should he remain an agent of Pure Chaos, like a certain arcanist he knows ;)

This is an FYI that I'll be away in nature this weekend, Sat 8/19 and Sun 8/20. I'll return very late Sunday and likely won't post again until Monday 8/21.

FYI: I'll be away this coming weekend starting Friday evening 9/8 through Sunday 9/10 (US/Pacific time). I will have limited access to post from my phone, so I may be able to keep up over the weekend but can't guarantee a post. As it is the weekend, I suspect this won't be very disruptive to the game.

Hey, I appreciate the invitation to join this game. At this point, life circumstances mean I'm focusing most on my most active games.

Please mark me as inactive, and the best of luck to yall.