Lost Lands

Game Master Edeldhur

GM - Obermind wrote:

The bandit hits Thistle with an AoO for 10 points of damage! Then he goes down to your combined attacks.

Thistle had plenty of room and movement to not give up the aoo. Why would she run close enough to get stabbed?

GM - Obermind wrote:

Naomi Chadwick wrote:

Naomi points her 'walking stick' at the man, calling Thistle, she twists the end of the stick in a 'J' shape telling the wolf, "خار کنار او می نشیند و حمله می کند" Thistle flank him and attack."

Question from me, due to ignorance on this matter: will Thistle understand the flank command?

Answer Flank is a trained command that she has, it's also how wolves attack naturally. A normal wolf pack tactic is for part of the pack to distract the prey and the others run around out of reach and attack from the back side.

Still wondering about Thistle being able to avoid an AOO?

Curious about the movement, I thought I had moved Naomi to L12 to flank with Thistle, but Elgrin is there. His post said he moved to the nearest villain. He is higher in initiative than Naomi and he did post before her, but I didn't realize where he was going. Is it possible to move ourselves on the map? If not would the players mark where they are headed using the grid?

Edit: Did Elgrin drop the bad guy before Naomi got there?

Sorry, I may have missed your question regarding the AoO. Actually I remember looking at the map, and there wasn't that much room for it Naomi.

This I believe is the version of the map at the time. I am not seeing a path which avoids AoO... I am assuming the overturned cart as a high obstacle which you cannot overcome by walking over it.

Regarding positioning: Yes I decided to place Elgrin in L12 instead of you for 3 main reasons - because it would be the most logical path for him on a charge and he would act before you, and also because your flank became irrelevant as you and Thistle bludgeoned and ripped the bad guy to pieces :D Also to keep us going, since it made no difference to the end result. And no, Elgrin did not drop the bad guy, Naomi did.

Regarding grid positions: The grid is there, so everyone should feel free to let me know where they want to move. Otherwise I will adjudicate, and game on.

As for Animal Companion related questions:

Ok, I don't use a lot of 'animal companions' and I initially rolled for commands. Since the lunar oracle's animal companion is like a druid I went and checked the rules.

PFSRD wrote:

Link (Ex)

A druid can handle her animal companion as a free action, or push it as a move action, even if she doesn’t have any ranks in the Handle Animal skill. The druid gains a +4 circumstance bonus on all wild empathy checks and Handle Animal checks made regarding an animal companion.

Since naomi's original modifier is + 8, and she gets a + 4 on Handle animals for her animal companion, that means any command while 'in initiative' her modifier is a 12, so she doesn't have to roll even if thistle is wounded (makes it a 12 instead of a ten). Correct?

I am not sure you can Take10 on Handle Animal during a combat Naomi. I think you need to keep rolling because:

Taking 10: When your character is not in immediate danger or distracted, you may choose to take 10. Instead of rolling 1d20 for the skill check, calculate your result as if you had rolled a 10. For many routine tasks, taking 10 makes them automatically successful. Distractions or threats (such as combat) make it impossible for a character to take 10. In most cases, taking 10 is purely a safety measure—you know (or expect) that an average roll will succeed but fear that a poor roll might fail, so you elect to settle for the average roll (a 10). Taking 10 is especially useful in situations where a particularly high roll wouldn't help.

Thistle was proceeding to 'J14' would have gone to 'J8' J9' 'I10 to I13' then 'J14' (40 ft move) it would have given the archer a potential AOO but his back was turned. that's not relevant, but he couldn't take the AOO because he had a bow at the time Naomi was going to'L12' so she didn't need thistle to get around behind, just that corner.

Naomi didn't take '10.' Her Handle animal is + 8, the + 4 circumstance bonus makes it a + 12 so she can't fail when it's something Thistle is trained at.

Thistle was proceeding to 'J14' would have gone to 'J8' J9' 'I10 to I13' then 'J14' (40 ft move) it would have given the archer a potential AOO but his back was turned. that's not relevant, but he couldn't take the AOO because he had a bow at the time Naomi was going to'L12' so she didn't need thistle to get around behind, just that corner.

Naomi didn't take '10.' Her Handle animal is + 8, the + 4 circumstance bonus makes it a + 12 so she can't fail when it's something Thistle is trained at.

Ah so 1 is not a fail in that case? Didn't know that. Learned it! (can you just point me to the rule itself?)

As for the movement, I would not expect a Wolf to differentiate between an enemy with a bow, or an enemy with a sword, and have the presence of mind to pass next to the archer because there will be no AoO. Let me know if you think otherwise ;)

In any case, Thistle triggers an AoO from the bad guy in H14 (he is not an archer), when moving from I13 to J14.

In any case, Thistle triggers an AoO from the bad guy in H14 (he is not an archer), when moving from I13 to J14.

Not so, he didn't drop his bow until after Thistles attack, you described it in your next post...

One of the archers decides to shoot, but his arrow goes wide. The other drops his bow, drawing a rapier and moving to flank Cann. His dangerous attack misses the nimble wolf however.

The flanked bandit recognizes the danger of his situation - he tries to attack Cann but misses, then steps to the side.

Certainly Thistle would not have differentiated the person in 'H14' as an archer or not, but Naomi would have. That's why she commanded Thistle to flank the person in 'K13' knowing that the wolf's training and natural way of hunting would take the wolf around the target (avoiding the AOO from him) and the wolf would be in no danger from the archer.

Are we playing skill checks fail on 1's and always succeed on 20's? I thought that was only attack actions. Let me see if I can find a rule.

Skill Checks

When your character uses a skill, he isn’t guaranteed success. In order to determine success, whenever you attempt to use a skill, you must make a skill check. Each skill rank grants a +1 bonus on checks made using that skill. When you make a skill check, you roll 1d20 and then add your ranks and the appropriate ability score modifier to the result of this check. If the skill you’re using is a class skill (and you have invested ranks into that skill), you gain a +3 bonus on the check. If you are not trained in the skill (and if the skill may be used untrained), you may still attempt the skill, but you use only the bonus (or penalty) provided by the associated ability score modifier to modify the check. Skills can be further modified by a wide variety of sources—by your race, by a class ability, by equipment, by spell effects or magic items, and so on. See Table: Skill Check Bonuses for a summary of skill check bonuses. If the result of your skill check is equal to or greater than the difficulty class (or DC) of the task you are attempting to accomplish, you succeed. If it is less than the DC, you fail. Some tasks have varying levels of success and failure depending on how much your check is above or below the required DC. Some skill checks are opposed by the target’s skill check. When making an opposed skill check, the attempt is successful if your check result exceeds the result of the target. Taking 10 and Taking 20A skill check represents an attempt to accomplish some goal, usually while under some sort of time pressure or distraction. Sometimes, though, a character can use a skill under more favorable conditions, increasing the odds of success.

Automatic Misses and Hits

A natural 1 (the d20 comes up 1) on an attack roll is always a miss. A natural 20 (the d20 comes up 20) is always a hit. A natural 20 is also a threat—a possible critical hit (see the attack action).

I've never played 'skill' checks fail on 1's...

quick post, on vacay with fam

The foe in front of him falling due to the Naomi/wolf tag team Elgrin scans about looking for another foe and rushes to H15

attack: 1d20 + 5 ⇒ (2) + 5 = 7
damage: 1d8 + 4 ⇒ (1) + 4 = 5

and slashes ineffectively

Dude, you posted in discussion :)

Sorry but you are wrong there with the archers vs melee Naomi - the archer which dropped his bow to attack Cann was the bad guy at E14.

Certainly Thistle would not have differentiated the person in 'H14' as an archer or not, but Naomi would have. That's why she commanded Thistle to flank the person in 'K13' knowing that the wolf's training and natural way of hunting would take the wolf around the target (avoiding the AOO from him) and the wolf would be in no danger from the archer.

Naomi would know Thistle was not in danger, but Thistle would not :)

I would assume if that is a natural instinct, then she would try to avoid all possible enemies right? Not just the ones wielding melee weapons. She would not go around her target, and ignore all others by risking passing right next to them, would she? Why go to lengths to go around one, but pass right next to another, when you are not differentiating from melee or ranged weapons? That seems odd to me.

But bottom line, I find that such micromanagement of an animal companion, as if he/she was remotely controlled, is a bit too much. Let me know if you disagree - if you do, we will stick with your perspective. But then we will need more detailed descriptions of movement. Like you have done a few posts up.

Are we playing skill checks fail on 1's and always succeed on 20's? I thought that was only attack actions.

And you are absolutely right - I had a momentary brain fart :P Apologies for that.

@naomi OOPS!

quick post, on vacay with fam

Enjoy!

Sorry but you are wrong there with the archers vs melee Naomi - the archer which dropped his bow to attack Cann was the bad guy at E14.

So then the archer at H14 was the one who shot at Cann the next round?

I don't know if a wolf would recognize an enemy with a bow as an enemy or not. Since we don't know any of the people in the fight, I don't know if a wolf would know who to attack or not to attack just based on the fight. I don't know if a wolf would totally obey what it was told or not, Thistle is trained to attack and flank. Valda pointed at an enemy, told the wolf to flank, I think the wolf would avoid letting the person it was told to attack keep from hitting it.

What I do know is that Naomi wouldn't send Thistle into a greater danger than she would go herself. She sees Thistle as a pet, not a guard dog. If there was a danger from the archer she wouldn't have sent her.

I tried to describe Naomi directing Thistle to go around the swordsman because she wasn't worried about the archer. Here was the post:

Seeing the attacker directly south of her Naomi points her 'walking stick' at the man, calling Thistle, she twists the end of the stick in a 'J' shape telling the wolf, "خار کنار او می نشیند و حمله می کند" Thistle flank him and attack." As the wolf runs around the man to get behind him...

Naomi AC 16, will charge 30 ft to 'L12' and flank attack with the Hanbo, Thistle AC 16 will loop 40 ft to 'J14' and flank attack

I described the directions in the post, and the distance and direction in the OOC.

But bottom line, I find that such micromanagement of an animal companion, as if he/she was remotely controlled, is a bit too much. Let me know if you disagree - if you do, we will stick with your perspective. But then we will need more detailed descriptions of movement. Like you have done a few posts up.

Do you mean me the player micromanaging or Naomi the Character micromanaging? I don't know that it's micromanagement she told Thistle to flank, Thistle chose the route protecting herself from the target.

I'll spell it out however you want. But it should swing both ways. You've got two animal companions. Let us know how you want them ran and I will try and do that.

Don't change the damage, we'll assume she ran past the guy she was sent to attack since she was running between two humans. This is a rhetorical question, how would Thistle have known that archer was an enemy to avoid them? Again, rhetorical.

There was never an archer at H14. I am sorry this was not clear for you.
There was an archer at E14, and another at D18 (who shot Cann after).
I did not look much into it, because Thistle would either get an AoO from the melee combatant at H14, or the one at K13. So I just rolled one. And I resolved the action accordingly.

Regarding micromanagement - what I mean is I don't think one should be able to define an animal companion's actions and movements in such a way. I am perfectly ok that Naomi has trained Thistle to flank a target, but I find it far fetched that you can instruct an animal to navigate precisely between foes A, B and C, avoiding one, and ignoring other, etc.

... she told Thistle to flank, Thistle chose the route protecting herself from the target.

She did, however she could not protect herself from the other attacker (which we have ascertained was not an archer), and thus was hit by an Attack of Opportunity.

Don't change the damage...

There is no reason to change it - Thistle would be hit by an AoO regardless, because H14 and K13 were both wielding rapiers. I believe you understood incorrectly that one of those was wielding a ranged weapon.

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The way I see it, an Animal Companion is not like 'playing with another character'. It is 'playing an animal' - therein lies the fun and the challenge. You can send your wolf to flank an enemy, that is perfectly fine. But if you are sending your wolf to flank a foe in an area with several spread out enemies, then you are risking your wolf to take a wrong turn and be the target of an AoO, unless the path is obvious and clear to him/her. It is either a risk you accept or you don't. I don't think in this case the path was obvious and clear for Thistle, because I don't think the difference between a bow and a rapier is obvious and clear for Thistle. And I don't think Naomi cannot convey such a detailed explanation to a wolf.

Disclaimer: In any case, there was no bow and rapier, but in fact rapier and rapier (like I have explained above).

I actually did think that you were risking a bit too much sending Thistle in like that, but there was indeed no way to approach without risking an AoO (like I have explained above), so I assumed you were accepting that risk. Still, it was not a HUGE risk, but Thistle got unlucky that is all, and was hit by a nasty critical from a Rapier.

This is how I see the situation, and Animal Companions in general. This is how I have always played and DMed them.

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I'll spell it out however you want.

Like I said, if you believe an animal companion can be managed like that, I am willing to accommodate it (it will work the same way for the bad guys). But for future reference, when crossing threatened squares (or possibly threatened squares), I will need movement described like this:

... to 'J8' J9' 'I10 to I13' then 'J14' (40 ft move)

I am thinking maybe next time I'll just do Theater of the Mind :P

dear god, please no...

:D

Oh my gosh! Our last SIX attacks over 4 pc's and a wolf has netted us ALL single-digit rolls. SINGLE DIGITS! Seriously? Crying out loud. Ugh.

I am worried about you guys…

I think this is fate's way of showing us the extreme of Gubble's powers. This round would have him use his diviners power again as well as fishing out his flag. So that would be a +5 to everyone's attacks. Making it go from everyone missed to everyone hit (if we are all close enough, just got home so haven't checked yet). This is the exception but still a very valid data point.

That being said... and with it being shown in the most extreme way. If you want me to retool, nerf, ANYTHING, I am okay with it. There is no hard feelings, no feelings of being, well anything. This is meant to be fun and the GM's enjoyment is PARAMOUNT in the continuation of any game. (just said good byes to Mort so feeling more thin at the moment, which only you would understand)

So tell me what works for you. Dropping the ability altogether, going to the most common diviner ability that increases their initiative works best. Or nerfing it maybe to level, +1 at level 1, increasing to a max +4 at level four? Still awesome but not nearly as powerful at the early levels.

Good with anything. Mechanics is just fuel to make the imagination more controlled.

Cause otherwise Gubble is growing dragon wings and spewing majestic exploding candy corn on EVERYONE! Why? Why the heck NOT! :)

My personal suggested nerf would be to make it single target instead of everyone in 50ft radius. Though I do feel like the 50ft radius thing encourages tactical positioning in an interesting way, Gubble already is encouraged to be within 30ft of everyone due to flagbearer.

Also, no Portuguese here.

In retrospective, I realize now I should have gone with a flat 'PFS approved content only', and it would have made my life much simpler. Another lesson learned ;)

I have come to the conclusion that the thing that demotivates me the most about DMing PF1 is exactly what I have been doing this whole time - trying to keep the game 'under control/balanced/reasonable'. Or at least the 'balanced/reasonable' version I envision. That is actually one of the reasons I invited you all specifically for this game, instead of opening a public Recruitment thread. Because I count on you to do a part of that 'work'.

In this vision, if a well prepared group playing smart, off each other's strengths and weaknesses, using their abilities to complement and play with each other, has an easy time overcoming CR equivalent encounters, I applaud them. And I take my hat off to them. I do not want to fudge an encounter (too much) to make it challenging just because I think it should be challenging (unless we are talking about something plot relevant, etc.). If they are 'playing well', they overcome obstacles more easily. Applause.

But if they are overcoming obstacles because of powers/abilities/stuff that are 'breaking the math' (for example, in this encounter, I decided all these guys would have AC15, so a +4 in one round and a +5 in another completely breaks the math) then... If I want the next brigand encounter to challenge you, I will have to fudge things, and make their AC.... 17?18? Dunno.

In any case, this was something I wanted to avoid, not so much for the work it entails (it is not THAT hard to fudge), but because I think it cheats the players of the balance I described above, and can lead to situations where ALL encounters are challenging, because that will be the natural tendency. I also feel it dilutes the merit in the good use of an ability, because it masquerades it behind a 'broken' effect - in the current situation, Gubble's support abilities SHOULD make a difference. But how much of a difference? For a 'balanced' ability, the math would have already be done for me. But for an 'unbalanced' one, I need to do the math myself, and I may actually defraud the difference it should make, by adjudicating too high or too low, or breaking immersion by you guys realizing all remaining opponents are suddenly much harder to hit. Maybe that is just a part of being DM though, but I wanted to share with you how I see things.

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In any case, I can see now that trying to implement this has drawn me/us into endless discussions and posts (like this one), about minutiae which completely drains my energy and will to play. I was shocked when I realized we have SEVEN pages of Discussion vs FOUR pages of Gameplay. So yeah. After yesterday, I was about to throw in the towel. Just needed an excuse to not look bad in the picture, and not offend anyone as I walked out on the game.

However, I really would like to give this thing a try and want to take responsibility for it, so I think I need to change my attitude into a more laid back one, and just let the game roll along. Less such debates will arise, and we will be able to enjoy the game much more I believe.

That being said, no need to modify your school power Gubble. Let's continue 'as is'. GAME ON!

PFS approved, very good suggestion. Roleplaying addition to the power: I found it cumbersome last night to try and think of what the inspiring prediction would sound like, especially if it is based on seeing the future, how does that work when telling 5 people? I have enjoyed using combat advise before, a grumpy wizard telling a swashbuckler to stab to the right cause the pirate had a limp or something like that. But five at once?

So I took the easy way out and just summarized, which isn't fun or neat, just plain Ugh.

I plan on looking over the other diviner powers tonight (hopefully) and will probably request to be able to retool.

Thank you for your honest expression.

In any case, I can see now that trying to implement this has drawn me/us into endless discussions and posts (like this one), about minutiae which completely drains my energy and will to play. I was shocked when I realized we have SEVEN pages of Discussion vs FOUR pages of Gameplay. So yeah. After yesterday, I was about to throw in the towel. Just needed an excuse to not look bad in the picture, and not offend anyone as I walked out on the game.

I apologize for my part in the pages of discussion. I made the error of thinking the 'badguy' Thistle neared was one of the retreating archers and I didn't pay good attention to the image you provided. But I do appreciate the conversation explaining your thought process. It will help the game run smoother later. As I've told you before I do better when I can asks question and sort through the material. And you were kind enough to do that for me.

As for everything else, I don't GM so I've never worried about 'Balanced' encounters or 'overpowered' class/spells/archetypes. I knew the 'archetype' I selected had the ability to min/max so I wanted to be open about it.

On the other hand, I assumed 'Lost Lands' As a 'Frog God Games' product would have places we would be outgunned and fighting would be futile.

Anyway, thank you for sharing your frustrations. I expect as we get used to each other's 'style' it will get less stressful. I know that the conversation about Thistles attack has helped me understand your expectations and things to look for on how you use the map. Please feel free to share question, observation and frustrations. We'd rather that than have the game end, or a player just ghost it, which happens so much here on the boards.

On family vacation. This week. Please bot me if needed.

Will try and keep up with combat posts. But am unable to contribute to the balance nerf conversation

GM - Obermind wrote:

I am going to say comprehension is required Naomi - I think it makes sense?

Perfect sense. that's why I asked.

Whenever you are in combat, you can only speak and understand the selected language. This does not interfere with spellcasting, but it does apply to spells that are language dependent. You gain the selected language as a bonus language.

I don't think Naomi can benefit from Gubble's Inspiring Prediction since she wouldn't understand what he's saying...

That might very well be :/

And does Thistle understand you when you speak 'in tongues'?

And does Thistle understand you when you speak 'in tongues'?

My intention was for celestial to be the 'command' language. But about halfway through the third post I realized she was talking to the wolf in common. So, celestial will be the 'command language' when she talks to her in common it's more like a recommendation. If she doesn't follow, then Naomi will get firm and use celestial. If that's too troubling I can try and remember to always use Celestial.

Yes, please try and remember, as it is an integral part of your character ;)

Or if you prefer, you can pick a different curse. We have only just started, so there is no point in being rigid about it.

Yes, please try and remember, as it is an integral part of your character ;)

You mean the talking in celestial when in combat or under stress/duress or when giving commands to Thistle or both?

I may consider a different curse. Originally, she was a Scion of Humanity aasimar so the celestial initially only manifest with the curse. Once we changed it to human I left the curse alone.

Sometimes animals, like children, rely on the rate, tone and volume of the speaker as much as the words that are actually spoke. I also know that trained dogs will respond to other commands like a whistle or different words, but when you want to make it clear you expect to be obeyed you use the training terms. My daughter is always reminding me. She has a husky/shepherd mix that's really well trained, but I don't know the commands, so he doesn't always listen to me. If he's not doing what I want she's like "firmly use this word."

My intention is to remember to always use celestial for commands when in combat or possible action mode. I figured when it's just fluff, part of character/RP, Naomi would whistle or speak in common, then sometimes have to look back and sigh and give the command in celestial. Again just doing it as part of the two's interaction not anything that would involve potential game mechanics.

Does that sound ok? If it's unsettling then I won't do it.

As far as I'm concerned about what rules go where and when, personally, it really doesn't matter to me. I honestly don't sweat any of it. (Well except for 15 point buy because I just think that's a joke) ;P

I came into the DnD world a power gamer. Power gamer at heart. And I still love playing the "Meat shield" as I learned it's called on these boards. I love the thick of battle.

But what I've learned over my time on these boards is that it's truly ALL about the roleplaying. I LOVE delving into the character and bringing them to life. If you can create some chemistry between the players to where they bounce off of each other and give them life, then THAT'S when a game is beautifully played. I don't care if we're all walking around in street clothes and carrying rubber balls to throw at the baddies. If you can get a "Team ball" mentality type effort between the players, and it doesn't matter how, then you will have an EXCELLENT game. No doubt in my mind.

And that's all I really strive for any more. Because without it, to me, the game is dull and boring. I don't care if I'm playing The Hulk. If there's no "life" to the game then it's not worth playing.

Just my 2 cents. Just give the change to charity. I'd just lose it anyway. :P

Javell

Wanted to respond to some things.

I don't find my immersion broken when I realize the GM boosted enemy AC to account for our attack. That kind of thing is part of what makes the game great.

Sad to hear that you were contemplating dropping the game. Glad you decided not to. I like my character a lot.

Regarding controlling Cann during combat, I plan to do what I did in this combat at least through the end of level one. Guthlag will probably be way too stressed fighting for his life to remember to handle Cann once he starts attacking. I think it's appropriate, however, for me to still post Cann's actions, trying to take into account her status as a wolf. I'm fine if Obermind wants to change her actions from what I posted in almost all cases. Eventually, once Cann's int increases, she gets better trained, Guthlag's handle animal goes up, and so does the magical bond between him and Cann, I expect to gradually exert a bit finer control over her.

@Naomi: Sounds good. I will roll some random percentage to see if Thistle understands what you (or anyone else) tells him, if not spoken in Celestial ;)

@Javell: Agreed! On a parallel note, I have always discarded Swords & Wizardry, but they may be on to something. Keeping players focused on what is important.

@Guthlag: Sounds good regarding Cann. And thanks for the feedback.

@Naomi: Sounds good. I will roll some random percentage to see if Thistle understands what you (or anyone else) tells him, if not spoken in Celestial ;)

Cool, that works perfectly.

In my head I just picture it like: They walk into a tavern and Naomi turns to go to a table telling Thistle 'come on' then she realizes that the wolf is headed to the kitchen instead of the dining area. So Naomi claps her hands and gives the 'command' in 'celestial.'

Our first husky was 1/16th wolf and it made my wife nervous, so we read several books to learn about the breed.

One of the best stories, in the late 19th century and 20th century dog sled racing was a sport even in the northern part of the lower 48. Most people ran larger dogs, some purebred, some mixed breeds for sledding. The huskies were still fairly rare, having been only brought to Alaska in 1909 from Siberia. So, a fellow from Alaska who had huskies was in a race (I think the race was in Maine.) The 'lead dog' smelled cooking from a house off of the 'trail' and ran the sled through the house looking for food. The 'Musher' eventually got them out of the house, back on the trail and still won the race.

I just want to reflect that sort of attitude a little in 'Thistle's' personality.

Got it ;)

And I would love to have a dog with ANY fraction of wolf. That is cool!

After a while Cordell comes to you also ... then stares at all of you expectantly.

Did we ever officially learn if the woman and child were his wife and kid?

Anyone have an opinion on the NPC? I don't care if he comes along, if we don't want him or we have a moral/ethical reason he shouldn't, then let's use diplomacy and convince him to 'stay with his family.' Instead of refusing him so he just joins with someone else who may not have our best interests in mind.

I don't want to turn him into a long term enemy...

GM - Obermind wrote:

After a while Cordell comes to you also ... then stares at all of you expectantly.

Did we ever officially learn if the woman and child were his wife and kid?

Not really. They are not though.

I guess it depends on what we want to do. I could be wrong, but I doubt the tower and this bandit issue are linked. From what I can tell, the tower is still at least 150 miles away. So pretty a pretty substantial distance.

If we just want to push through to the tower, then I don't see much reason to bring him along. If we want to try and see what's up in local farm country then he might be useful to introduce us to other families/leaders in the area.

My understanding is he wants to learn how to defend himself, and be part of something that isn't getting beaten up all the time.

Agree with Hamish

Well, if it's tower or farmers I'd rather push on to the tower. We may find more clues as to what's going on as we go or once we got there. As well as tools to help us deal with any outlaws.

As a player, I'm fine just pushing on to the tower. Hamish as a character is much more inclined to help the farmers. I won't let that derail the rest of the groups desire to move on. I'll try to RP it out a bit in my next post.

Unless Obermind wishes to have a voice in the party, which an NPC would make a nice way of having it, I vote no on the boy joining, mostly due to Gubble's combined worry about keeping him alive and his own vision about The Band.

Gubble himself has already voted on heading to the tower unless the trouble with the trade routes falls in their lap which then Fate has declared us a task.

All that to say, if our GM wants us to pursue this side adventure, dropping it in our lap would be an excellent way to do it :)

I think Guthlag is younger than Elgrin. He's only 17.

hmmmm that means Guthlag is younger than Naomi, she's nineteen. Which is the high end for 'intuitive.' Don't half orcs 'mature' faster than humans also?

Looks like we've got two 17 year olds in the party

That's fine, but Naomi's not teaching them how to shave!

Had to look up what I had for Gubble's age, and it is 25! Learning wizardry takes time I guess.

All that to say, if our GM wants us to pursue this side adventure, dropping it in our lap would be an excellent way to do it :)

I am but a humble observer :D