Lost Lands

Game Master Edeldhur

Watching as Hamish washes the pan, Naomi looks from the three 'spell casters' to the three fighters. Pointing towards Jalros, the obviously biggest and toughest of the batch, she recommends. "Jalros why don't you team up with Gubble on the last watch."

Pausing, she points to her oldest acquaintance. "Me and Hamish will take the first, so we can catch up on old times."

She turns to Elgrin, "That will put you with Guthlag in the middle."

She smiles a smile that looks like she feels she's just solved all the world's problems.

Done and done. This is the watch. Perfect. Paint it on the walls, Obermind. Memorize it. Tattoo on your hands. ;P

Eventually, I'll get through the rest of the posts. :P

Okay, I just now caught Guthlag's post. Maybe I should actually read the whole thing first. :p

So is Jalros with Gubble or Guthlag? I can roll with either. Just let me know. I can't really argue with his point about AC.

@Obermind: Might want to scratch the tattoo bit. Just sayin'.

I did realize the bits in the italics were in her head, not aloud, he was just bantering for fun. He does not know what is in her head. The wake you up in four hours is how he decided she was suggesting the switch placing Gubble in the middle, nothing more.

And all this is just to explain, that is all. That post (and this post) was not meant to be a pain in any way, and I apologize if it came across like that.

I didn't remember to check the discussion thread, where I had seen that there was an icon for a new post, before I posted in gameplay. Or after I posted in gameplay. Definitely a mistake. Hard to feel like there's a discussion when someone completely ignores your post, which is what I did.

I think we've figured out the following things so far:

Hamish and Namoi both volunteered to take first watch, and have IC reasons to want to stick together. That seems like a good starting point.

Given what Naomi said about splitting up pets and Elgrim's comment about Perception, it makes sense to me that Guthlag and Gubble would split the other two watches (they have the perception scores and pets). Guthlag in the middle of the night makes sense given darkvision, as Namoi suggested, which leaves Gubble the morning shift, which makes sense given his concern about spell preparation.

The only decision after that is where to put Jalros and Elgrin, neither of whom have a strong preference. I made the case that Elgrin should be paired with Gubble based on AC and tanking ability (which I thought about because of Elgrin's comment that we should divide martial prowess evenly across watches). That leaves Jalros with Guthlag, which I like the idea of.

I can go with either. Just let me know and that's how I'll roll.

Jalros with Guthlag is fine by me.

Sounds good.

Ok, I am moving us forward with the following watches:

- 3x4 hour watches

Hamish and Naomi first.
Guthlag and Jalros second.
Gubble and Elgrin third.

Since nothing in particular was pointed out, I am going to assume those on watch are usually either sitting by the fire, or pacing/watching at the edge of the campfire illumination radius. Something like this?

Trying to get some sort of SOP for the future ;)

That's cool, Noami would illuminate the 'walking stick' walking the perimeter with her wolf.

I apologize for the rant. It was more about having a discussion when different views are brought up and trying not to determine things for other players.

From a mechanical point Elgrin's AC is probably a better reason to put him with Gubble instead of Jalros' size.

Though Jalros 'to hit' is better, and I would argue Pathfinder favors offense over defense. But that's a topic when we start talking 'strategy' :)

Speaking of strategy, are any of you familiar with: The Forge of Combat and it's sister article Fueling the forge?

It seems good to try to avoid determining things for other players as much as possible.

That article is fairly interesting. I think the point that encounters primarily drain resources makes sense. The idea that different characters should fulfill different roles to be more efficient also makes sense to me. Some of the specific things in the article I disagree with. For example, it suggests that a damage dealing character should deal 1/3 to 2/3 of an encounter's health in one round, and should ideally find a way to do that on the first round such as pounce. This seems off to me, but maybe it's accurate to very high level play.

So I am assuming you all kinda move as a block, Hamish and Jalros slightly ahead because they are unencumbered by armor or short halfling legs :)

Naomi also has a 'light' load so would be able to move at 30 ft, but she would stay behind the other two, not wanting to put herself right in the middle of a melee.

Crap. I meant to respond to this last night and freaking forgot.

@Naomi: Yeah, I've never heard of those. Will have to read it at some point when I get some time.

I'm familiar with the forge although I'd never read Fueling the forge til today.

My apologies for not posting yesterday. I saw my cousins and brother and ended up completely forgetting to check the boards.

Gubble used the run action, to move I believe the same speed as Elgrin, short legs and heavy arm makes us all equal :)

My apologies for not posting yesterday. I saw my cousins and brother and ended up completely forgetting to check the boards.

No apologies required! Family is always a good reason to forget about the boards ;)

Placement at the end of R1 should be something like:

Fight
.
40’
.
Hamish, Naomi and Thistle, Jalros
.
40’
.
Gubble and Lem, Guthlag and Cann, Elgrin

Map coming up soon!

If I understand this correctly, Hamish, Naomi(thistle) and Jalros should be able to see the fight 40 ft ahead of them or is the view blocked by the bend in the road?

You understand correctly :)

Gubble is missing from the list :) short legs!!!!!

Which list? :P

If you mean round 2, I hadn’t added Gubble or Jalros because they do not get to act yet. But they are there now!

Sorry! Sorry for not getting to it yesterday. Stuff and all that. Will get to it here shortly. Just give me a bit.

@Obermind: Thanks for the bot, bud. Apologies again for yesterday.

Now, with Jalros's pic being on the left side of the map, is that where he's going to be coming from?

Yeah, we can say it is - but that is your position at the end of Round 1 ;)

I will keep your posted actions for round 2, when you are up.

Oh okay. That'll work. Sounds good. Edited to make it "fit" better. :)

Solid!

Ok, I don't use a lot of 'animal companions' and I initially rolled for commands. Since the lunar oracle's animal companion is like a druid I went and checked the rules.

Link (Ex)

A druid can handle her animal companion as a free action, or push it as a move action, even if she doesn’t have any ranks in the Handle Animal skill. The druid gains a +4 circumstance bonus on all wild empathy checks and Handle Animal checks made regarding an animal companion.

Since naomi's original modifier is + 8, and she gets a + 4 on Handle animals for her animal companion, that means any command while 'in initiative' her modifier is a 12, so she doesn't have to roll even if thistle is wounded (makes it a 12 instead of a ten). Correct?

Hey Guthlag, like I said above, I don't do a lot of animal companions and I was comparing Thistle to Cann, to see if I have stuff right. You've got Cann's str @ 15. I find wolves at: Str 13, Dex 15, Con 15, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 6.

What did I miss?

edit: ok I found part of it:

Ability Score Increase (Ex)

The animal companion adds +1 to any one of its ability scores.

I didn't do that, so her str would be 14, or I'd make her Int 3 hmmmm

Guthlag has the 'Shaman Enhancement' alternate racial ability which provides a +2 bonus to a physical ability score for an AC.

cool, thanks for the information! Anyone know anything about animal sidekicks? Please take a look at Thistle and see if I missed anything else :)

Looks good to me. Although, herolabs has her at 13 hp's instead of 11. I don't know how hit points are determined for companions.

And I'm curious where the Ability score increase came from? I've never seen that.

Looks good to me. Although, herolabs has her at 13 hp's instead of 11. I don't know how hit points are determined for companions.

And I'm curious where the Ability score increase came from? I've never seen that.

Animal companions receive average hit points per hit die. For d8, the average is 4.5. Multiply 4.5 times the number of hit dice your animal companion has and round down. Recalculate hit points for your companion each time it gains additional hit dice. After its hit points are calculated, add in appropriate bonuses from its Constitution modifier, feats, and so on.

animal companions start with two hit dice, with a constitution modifier of + 2, it looks like I added the constitution modifier for 'one level' instead of two 'Hit Dice'.

Ah, I see, gotcha. So that's why Herolabs has the first 2 levels of hit points at 4 and 5. Now it makes sense. Thanks for that clarification. I was always wondering why they did it that way.

I've only played companions a couple of times because it's just a lot of extra work. I like them but it's too much to run them all the time. At least for me anyway.

"Matar!" Guthlag calls out...

Hey! Do you speak Portuguese? :)

I've only played companions a couple of times because it's just a lot of extra work. I like them but it's too much to run them all the time. At least for me anyway.

I've tried it just to have an extra crunchy build, but it wasn't as fun.

The two times I have a good time with it was a paladin with a horse for a mount and a hunter with a wolf.

We had horses when I was a kid, and the paladin mount reminded me of them. As an adult my family had several huskies, so I played the hunter's wolves like them. Here with Naomi, Thistle is basically a husky that was my daughters pet.

Round 2

Guthlag and Cann fearlessly dash ahead, the wolf passing right in front of one of the archers who is unable to stop him.

Naomi advances, sending Thistle on the offensive - the wolf viciously bites one of the archers, but is not able to trip him down

...the one wounded by Cann actually turns tail and runs away,...

Two of the archers attack Cann, and then retreat. One of the arrows flies wide, but the second one hits.

Cann takes 3 points of damage.

Ok, it was Thistle that got the attack in, did she also take the arrow or were those shots at Cann, who was nearer to them?

They attacked Cann yep.

full round to run, swift to use Inspiring Prediction. Giving each ally within 50 feet who can hear him a +4 luck bonus to their next attack, saving throw, or skill check.

Ok guys, be level with me - am I the only one to think this level 1 wizard school power is simply too strong? And Gubble can do this 6 times a day? :P

Gubble wrote:

full round to run, swift to use Inspiring Prediction. Giving each ally within 50 feet who can hear him a +4 luck bonus to their next attack, saving throw, or skill check.

Ok guys, be level with me - am I the only one to think this level 1 wizard school power is simply too strong? And Gubble can do this 6 times a day? :P

Honestly I have no idea how it compares to other 'school powers'

Oh no, no disagreement at all, it is insane. +4, swift action, and to the entire group (within 50 feet which 9 times out of 10 will be everyone). Compare it to his other one he gets. Touch only, standard action, +1/2 level bonus, min 1, for 1 round.

If you want to nerf, or me retool, let me know.

I've tried it just to have an extra crunchy build, but it wasn't as fun.

The two times I have a good time with it was a paladin with a horse for a mount and a hunter with a wolf.

We had horses when I was a kid, and the paladin mount reminded me of them. As an adult my family had several huskies, so I played the hunter's wolves like them. Here with Naomi, Thistle is basically a husky that was my daughters pet.

Now THAT'S cool. Man, that's cool. I'm not really a dog person but I've always loved huskies. Man, they are good-looking dogs. I love their ice blue eyes and the fact they look like wolves. So cool.

Gubble wrote:

full round to run, swift to use Inspiring Prediction. Giving each ally within 50 feet who can hear him a +4 luck bonus to their next attack, saving throw, or skill check.

Ok guys, be level with me - am I the only one to think this level 1 wizard school power is simply too strong? And Gubble can do this 6 times a day? :P

I'm certainly not as familiar with all the PF options out there, but I'd say it is still a little early to make a judgement call. Sure the quick action and group +4 seem a bit OP at first glance, but it is only for one roll. It might be worth seeing how it actually works out in combat. Does it change a lot of roll results verses just adding to an already success or not getting used at all. Does it really tip things our way too much? Or does it turn the occasional fail into a success with a bit of added fun RP flavor? Personally, I like that it is an effective group boost that doesn't use a spell slot or require everyone to take a feat or some other similar nonsense. Just my two cents.

Might be that they made the divination powers stronger because their spells are less so in most cases.

I'd have to agree with Hamish. I think that's well put.

Yes. Whichever archer he can reach is the one Jalros is going to go toward. 120'. Gonna be tight. Should be interesting if I can reach someone.

I'm certainly not as familiar with all the PF options out there, but I'd say it is still a little early to make a judgement call.

Not a judgement call yet, and of course we cannot anticipate what exact effects it will have on the rolls, but let me ask this to you then Hamish - do you think a combat CR1 or CR2 encounter remains the same if you all have 1, 2 or 3 rounds with a +4 bonus? ;)

And comparing for example with a core ability like the Bard's Inspire Courage. At level 1:

- It requires a Standard action to activate (and a free to maintain);
- The bonus is +1 to attacks, and +1 bonus on saving throws against charm and fear effects only. It reaches +4 at level 17 I think;
- Without any extra modifications, a Bard with Cha 18 can use it 8 times a day.

Vs.

- A swift action;
- A +4 luck bonus on her next attack roll, saving throw, or skill check;
- In this case, 7 times a day.

It definitely looks very powerful to me, but I will not push for it if me (and Gubble) are the only ones thinking so. I am not interested in throwing out rulings left and right - I would rather we have a conversation ;)

Question though @Gubble: why take it if you yourself think it is insane? Why not point it out before the game starts, so we could have this discussion beforehand? Just curious.

In any case, let's keep going! ;)

Will give a chance for Jalros and Guthlan to pipe in.

Naomi points her 'walking stick' at the man, calling Thistle, she twists the end of the stick in a 'J' shape telling the wolf, "خار کنار او می نشیند و حمله می کند" Thistle flank him and attack."

Question from me, due to ignorance on this matter: will Thistle understand the flank command?

I am going to say comprehension is required Naomi - I think it makes sense?

The bandit hits Thistle with an AoO for 10 points of damage! Then he goes down to your combined attacks.

Thistle had plenty of room and movement to not give up the aoo. Why would she run close enough to get stabbed?

Answer Flank is a trained command that she has, it's also how wolves attack naturally. A normal wolf pack tactic is for part of the pack to distract the prey and the others run around out of reach and attack from the back side.

Hamish Macrae wrote:

I'm certainly not as familiar with all the PF options out there, but I'd say it is still a little early to make a judgement call.

Not a judgement call yet, and of course we cannot anticipate what exact effects it will have on the rolls, but let me ask this to you then Hamish - do you think a combat CR1 or CR2 encounter remains the same if you all have 1, 2 or 3 rounds with a +4 bonus? ;)

And comparing for example with a core ability like the Bard's Inspire Courage. At level 1:

- It requires a Standard action to activate (and a free to maintain);
- The bonus is +1 to attacks, and +1 bonus on saving throws against charm and fear effects only. It reaches +4 at level 17 I think;
- Without any extra modifications, a Bard with Cha 18 can use it 8 times a day.

Vs.

- A swift action;
- A +4 luck bonus on her next attack roll, saving throw, or skill check;
- In this case, 7 times a day.

It definitely looks very powerful to me, but I will not push for it if me (and Gubble) are the only ones thinking so. I am not interested in throwing out rulings left and right - I would rather we have a conversation ;)

Question though @Gubble: why take it if you yourself think it is insane? Why not point it out before the game starts, so we could have this discussion beforehand? Just curious.

Well, let me see if I can answer this with some level of coherence. :)

I guess I would start first with the possible bonuses per round. So with the bard's ability we can assume all party members benefit because there really isn't a range limit barring special circumstances. Whereas I would say an average of 3-4 players can benefit from the wizard ability. (We are already spread out to where not everyone gets the bonus based on the map.) So per round the bard's party gets +6 to hit, +6 damage. Plus any possible saves. The wizards gets +12 on a hit or save or a skill. No damage bonus.

Certainly in tighter quarters the wizard party bonus is greater. But if we start to carry it over a full combat things change a bit. The bard gets the +6/+6 each round without spending another use. So essentially it is one use per combat. The wizard has to spend a use each round.

So assume a 6 round combat (about one minute) the wizard has granted +72 worth of bonuses and is almost completely tapped for the day. The bard has granted +36 attack/+36 damage and still has plenty of uses left for additional encounters.

From an encounter perspective maybe the first encounter with the wizard leans heavily toward the party, but the second or third hardly at all unless the wizard is more thrifty in the initial encounter. So say he only grants 2 rounds of bonus. That's only +24 vs the bard's consistent +36/+36.

Certainly it can be powerful especially under the right circumstances, but it doesn't seem crazy powerful. But again, PF hasn't been my game for a long time so I could easily be missing something. And I'll totally go with the GM call, but you asked. :)

I listed out this ability along with flag bearer when I was considering them, the idea he would be a wizard buffing the party more than hitting things with damage.

https://paizo.com/campaigns/v5748p75ivmis/discussion&page=2#88

I also had looked up to see if there were any in place nerfs already discussed online or complaints about its power. Haven't found any so far, but will keep looking.

@Obermind: P16 works for me.

Certainly in tighter quarters the wizard party bonus is greater. But if we start to carry it over a full combat things change a bit. The bard gets the +6/+6 each round without spending another use. So essentially it is one use per combat. The wizard has to spend a use each round.

So assume a 6 round combat (about one minute) the wizard has granted +72 worth of bonuses and is almost completely tapped for the day. The bard has granted +36 attack/+36 damage and still has plenty of uses left for additional encounters.

From an encounter perspective maybe the first encounter with the wizard leans heavily toward the party, but the second or third hardly at all unless the wizard is more thrifty in the initial encounter. So say he only grants 2 rounds of bonus. That's only +24 vs the bard's consistent +36/+36.

Not exactly Hamish, Bard's Inspire Courage also comes in rounds - so a level 1 Bard can use his Inspire Courage around 7-8 rounds a day. The same amount of times a Wizard can use this power.

I also had looked up to see if there were any in place nerfs already discussed online or complaints about its power. Haven't found any so far, but will keep looking.

Let me know if you find anything interesting Gubble.

----------

Just as a disclaimer, with all of this I am of course trying to make my life simpler and your fights more interesting - making sure I do not have to constantly make changes to the bad guys, if I want to keep the CRs correct. There will always be easy wins, medium, and hard ones. I just want to make sure the wins are based on you guys being a well rounded, articulate (or lucky) group, and not on some whacked out ability. What I mean is - overcome by playing smart, not by being broken.

Also I do enjoy discussing about all these things, the state of the game, etc ;)

In any case thank you for being patient, and sharing your opinions everyone - I think you are right. Let's go forward 'as is' and we'll see how things will turn out.