On the other hand, the GM did want this to be one paladin for each of the six mythic paths. They might want to fill the opening in order to maintain the theme of the campaign.
Yes, you're right. We're missing the "Marshal" right now... But maybe between the Dual Path work we can cover all roles?
I think we are all a bit in shock that Ian left as he did. At least I am.
And I think on the way out, Ian raised a good point on question of how to allocate epic items.
What are everybody's thoughts on voting vs rolling at this point?
I would say vote, sticking to the method that was originally proposed.
I'm fine with either - and I always preferred voting. Unless, of course, we're dealing with anyone who's up to loot whoring. I have a serious issue when I see it and I don't shut up, which was the case here. My radar starts beeping loud when I feel it, and I think you know what I'm talking about. If it quacks like a duck...
With it all said - I do believe the current item might be the most controversial in this entire module (just because we're all paladins!) and the suggestion to roll was to simplify it. This item is not designed only for followers of Iomedae, as much as I like the argument about its "name". At least 4 of our 5 can definitely benefit from it and should be allowed a fair claim (and in all honesty, I'd be fine even with everybody rolling). The item isn't even restricted to melee weapons, so even our archer deserves a chance. He's a paladin and in the "mythos" of his character (his own personal story - we're all writing our characters personal story and journey) I think it's perfect that a special weapon was found and it ended up taking the shape of Erastil's holy weapon.
Right now I'm comfortable with our group and the players in it. I play in a game where Leothar/Aldizog is the GM and Trawets (our GM here!) is another of the players. I also played with Ardriel/Phntm888 before in other games that already died before. Recently I was with Flay/MauveAvengr in a very fun (yet lethal!) PFS run. I haven't played with Petsha/Zorblag before, but so far no complains at all. I think we're very solid and I trust (and like the style) of the players currently in it.
I'm going to go with voting on Radiance. If I had remembered earlier that was the agreement I would not have entertained any other method. I'm 49 and have a 3 year old who didn't sleep more than 4 hours for the first 16 months of his life. I never thought it possible but I forget things now I wouldn't have 5 years ago. So if I seem to contradict something I said earlier please just give me a polite reminder of what was said earlier.
I realize I have said I was leaving and it's in very bad form to not do what you say, so, for that I apologize in advance. But if you haven’t guessed, this isn't the first time that adsapiens. and I have had difficulty. Where unsurprisingly my characters "posts... manages to make things worse :)" So. having gone down this path before, I thought it might be simplest to leave.
But I’m still unable to keep from pulling at that loose thread.
I said I dropped out of the game to reduce stress. My mom has dementia and I’m her primary caregiver. Sunday morning was bad for me and stressing over the game didn’t help. Having taken these couple of days it seems being out of the game hasn't had the effect I thought it would.
DM Trawets, with your permission I’d like to stay in the game. If something is frustrating me, I will try and share it in a constructive fashion without letting it build up.
It seems my “detector” was right, after all, especially reading from that game of three and a half years ago. And especially seeing you conveniently wanting to return once we decide again to vote. Honestly, I don’t want to put the GM into a “it’s me or him” situation - as they’re plain ridiculous - so I’d rather just step out myself. I’d rather be picky as to whom I play with. My apologies for the GM for the disruption and escalation here, and to him and the others I hope to play with you again (being on the other games we’re already together, or future ones).
Donnen, I will not address your 'detector.' If you want to talk about the particulars In PM's I'm happy to.
My point was that I stressed myself over the game, and I thought leaving may have helped the overall personal stress level. It didn't.
There doesn't need to be a 'me or him' situation. Donnen is a quality character and sound build. Just because we've had difficulties doesn't mean we can't work together (or should that be 'play together?). The three point offense worked well...
When I see things that I don't understand or things that frustrate me, I tend to try and play nice, not addressing it, bottling it up. Then, eventually, when it builds up, I am emotional and tend to overreact. I will try and not do that.
by the way, it never was 'not a vote'
Happy to have you back, Ian.
I hope you can stay too, Donnen. I think we can make this work with a bit of patience and giving each other the benefit of the doubt. And I think we'd make an awesome frontline trio.
I imagine everybody is under a bit of stress given the dumpster fire that is 2020.
I hope it is possible for you two to bury the hatchet over PM.
Thanks Leothar, sorry about causing a delay in the game, let's try and get it back on track.
I apologize for over thinking this, but I have a question about the vote. Are we voting as our characters? No metagaming, looking at it from their opinion and how they see the world. Or are we voting as players? Knowing were going mythic and what those things will loosely entail?
If were voting as characters, Ian would vote for Fley, because he needs the most help. Ian feels bad for him because all he gets to do is stand there and waive his kukri.
If were voting as players knowing our roles; I would vote for Leothar, he's the first one in the door and our champion, seems like he should have the champions weapon. Unless of course he is glued to his axe...
reasoning: it looks like whatever 'champion build' Leothar choses he will always be the first in the door. Using the 'arm, hammer, anvil' analogy he will almost always be the hammer. Using the same analogy it looks like the Marshal and Guardian, at times, can be the anvil or the arm. So it would be wise to give the best weapon to the one who would use it all the time.
Leothar is not glued to his axe and if the party were to vote that he should carry Radiance, he would do so.
My in-character reasoning for voting for Ian is the Iomedae flavor of the weapon.
My OOC reasoning is that Ian is also a frontliner but will not have Smite Evil, so this is a way for Ian to keep pace.
If Radiance was an Iomedae tied longsword, I would agree. But it's tied to a paladin and their deities weapon. Or if it's mythic nature were tied to light (radiance) it would be cool because Ian's archetype is 'warrior of holy light' but I don't think it is.
If were doing our job right, you'll kill most stuff before Ian has a chance to get there :)
I watch over my uncle twice a week who has dementia. I'm watching him get worse week after week. So I know how stressful that can be.
Fley would be happy to get Radiance, but would be more than happy for any of his companions to pick it up. He'll never be the main damage dealer of the group as he's focusing more on skills and such. So Radiance may not be the best in Fley's hands.
Radiance is or was the weapon of a Paladin of Iomadae, that is why it is well know for what she did with it. Fluffwise it makes sense in Ian's hands but mechanically it may be put to better use in someone else's hands. I'm not endorsing one person over the other for this. The weapon really isn't much more than can be found in the CRB in fact it is a slightly modified CRB weapon if fully awakened, if I remember correctly. There are plenty of nice weapons and armor available in this AP and I can modify what the AP gives for ones you guys use, it just takes getting out of town for the most part.
I have talked to Donnen and he won't be coming back. I will take recommendations on replacing him.
I can definitively state that whoever gets Radiance will not need another weapon for the rest of the game - it’s that good.
GM, should we consider someone else from the original recruitment’s submission?
So the other two Guardians from the list were:
Ellioti: Zero. Human (Sacred Servant, Knight of Coins) Guardian
Kulko: Markos Dentros Human (Faithful Wanderer) Guardian
Do you want to talk to them, or would you want us to recommend potential players?
Oh, and it's hard to have an election, if folks aren't voting.... :)
It pains me to leave, as I truly like the group and trawets style. I also was looking forward and loving the interactions with my dwarf partner - and my other highlight is Fley’s interpretation of his paladin.
A possible solution would be that neither Ian or Donnen get the weapon, and we stop with all loot whoring. Simple and elegant, and I’m willing to go for it. My vote would go for Leothar to keep it - honestly I feel he’s the one which would made better use of it, though like I said before I think I’d be happy with the other guys getting it too.
How about it?
Donnen, I'm completely good with Leothar getting the weapon. I agree as the champion he would make best use of it.
I think your character makes a significant contribution to the party, and would be sorely missed.
As for the loot whoring, please PM me, I really would like to understand better what you feel I did. I do better with open communication, but I don't think here in discussion is the best place for that particular conversation.
As I feel I was somewhat caught in the middle of the prior loot dispute (the MW warhammer), let me point out that I took no offense.
With Leothar's archetype set up to cleave through evil hordes, the waraxe made for a better visual in my head. It was just as trivial as that visual image. It was an RP failing on my part to not have my Dwarven paladin of Torag see the MW Warhammer found in a temple of Torag as a sign. You snooze, you lose, so Ian got it. I said "fair enough" and I meant that.
So Donnen, to whatever extent you think Ian was a bit unreasonable there, I view it as a fair consequence for that RP failing.
And Ian, to whatever extent you think my hesitating was related to the loot division method that Donnen had proposed (i.e. didn't want to deplete my share), that wasn't actually the case.
I'm sorry for my part in this. If I had really thought about Torag, then I would have asked for the MW Warhammer right off the bat, instead of coming around to the idea later, which might have avoided some trouble.
I think we can get this back on track.
Yes, I feel we already found a good solution/compromise: neither Donnen nor Ian keep the weapon. Now we just need the others to vote in someone to keep Radiance.
My vote is for Leothar if he wants it. If he doesn't take it, Fley would gladly take it. I don't want to take it from anyone else who wants it though.
I feel like Fley is slowly becoming more comfortable in his own skin. Radiance does sound like a fun weapon to have for Fley and (from what Ardriel suggests) quite powerful. Don't want to metagame too much though. Just worried that Fley might not be the best one to have it.
Okay, I will vote for Leothar to keep it.
I think that's a majority.
Can somebody post in Gameplay to help move that along? Making the transition from this player decision to an in-character one is a bit tricky. I will think on it and maybe some inspiration will come to me.
Hosilla was human, the tiefling was the guard. She she actually hated the humans more than Fley, though she hated all of you. As she drew blood those targets moved out of range of her glaive and Fley stayed there. She promised to take one of you with her so she concentrated on Fley. I'm going to let you in on a secret, many of the NPC have the combat instructions "favors attacks against foes who are obviously worshipers of good deities". That's a line I can delete :)
Ha, the jokes on you! My deity is only Neutral Good!
Oh, wait, it's just "good deities". Never mind.
On a serious note, I vote Leothar keeps Radiance as well. Like I said, it's an awesome weapon.
Happy 4th of July everyone!
Happy 4th!
Happy “Telling the British to buzz off” day!
Also, to sum up today:
Me, this morning: *Checks thread, no posts* “Okay, I’ll chime in later.
Me, now: *Checks thread, 13 posts* “...The heck?”
We I finished burning $75 out in the cul du sac a little while ago and survived. The kids enjoyed it as did the neighbors who were sitting in their driveway watching the rest of the neighborhood burn money. I have never seen so many displays of fireworks being set off. It sounds a bit like a war zone here in Charlotte at times. I had the street on each side of me setting them off too and one of them is a main road in. There is a haze you can see in the lights here. They will be at it till 2 or 3 am.
Some firework here as well, for the despair of my dog. But thankfully people wrapped it up by 11 pm or so.
I'm in Portland. Lots of fireworks still happening, but not as much as I would have thought.
Trawets, a quick question about movement. When two or three of us announce we are moving, does that mean that the group is moving in the "marching" order or just those people have moved and everyone else is where they were on the map?
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It depends on what is stated. Honestly I was expecting to have you bring the others up and then move on. If you don't take a look around the room and don't check bodies and just say you move on then it's in the order of who posted you move. If you say "once everyone is ready" I move on, then it would be marching order. I'm guessing Leothar wanted to go after the rat that escaped, I had considered keeping you in rounds but that tends to let you know that something is going to happen.
We are close to the end of part 1 of this book.
Not meaning to push things along too fast - of course we can check bodies and look for secret doors and so on.
But I didn't think it was prudent to bring the NPCs up until this room was secure; there were more bedrolls than we had encountered enemies, so I assumed more were to be found. The rat was not really the concern as much as the "fog of war," an unexplored part of the room we were in.
I'm impressed, someone counted the bedrolls. I'm glad I increased the number from the AP since I added a few mongrelmen to up the difficulty.
Leothar can hopefully survive one round of attacks (with 22 AC) but will need to withdraw to rotate somebody else to the front. That is his plan for next round, so please make sure there is an open space he can get to.
Loethar, how far back do you want to withdraw?
Even being able to attack and 5' step back next round would mean that only one demon could attack me, not three.
So making room for Donnen to attack and step back would open up that spot for me. And if I am more seriously wounded and need to full withdraw, I can do that.
Let's see how their attacks go.
Edit: I suppose Leothar could have delayed until after everyone else, then been able to attack and 5' step back this round. I don't know.
@GM, that's fine. I should have been more patient posting my turn anyway.
I'm trying to strike a balance between normal initiative and keeping things moving. I would rather you post and make some if/then statements than not post. We were moving really well and have slowed a bit, though are moving faster than most games I've played in. It seems most games die to either GM disappearing or things slowing too much. So if I seem to be pushing, I apologize, I just don't want this to die.
This is the final battle of part 1 of this book. There are 4 total, though 3 and 4 are really one.
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You're doing great, Trawets! I really like this game (and this AP). I'm sorry for some of the conflicts we saw in the past weeks but I feel it's important to build a truly cohesive group. I look forward to journeying to the next book.
Hey Donnen, I looked all over the PFSRD for the rules on squeezing and attacking, didn't find much. I would like to know what tactic you were thinking for maybe the next time. Figured the best I could do right now was give you guys room to move.
You can't end your movement in an occupied square, so Ian couldn't move into Donnen's square and attack.
The Swap Places teamwork feat would be useful in a situation like this. But as that is non-Core and we are all feat-starved, what I would suggest in the future is a 5' gap between the front rank and the next during exploration (whether we are in 1x6 or 2x3 formation).
A Bull Rush or Overrun from Leothar might have been a good tactic here, but lacking the Improved feats he'd have provoked AOOs. Will pick up one or the other at 3rd. For now, a few good rolls on attacks have probably thinned out their numbers.
You can't end your movement in an occupied square, so Ian couldn't move into Donnen's square and attack.
That's what I was thinking, but I couldn't find a lot about 'squeezing' so I wanted to ask. Would love to here others ideas though, if for no other reason to improve my own knowledge.
A Bull Rush or Overrun from Leothar might have been a good tactic here, but lacking the Improved feats he'd have provoked AOOs. Will pick up one or the other at 3rd. For now, a few good rolls on attacks have probably thinned out their numbers.
I was considering 'overrunning' one of the dretch once we got more information, but didn't want to hold up the first round.
I love the fact that were talking a little about tactics, it helps me think about the combat as a group instead of individuals.
Squeezing should use the 3.5 ruling, but the GM should ultimately decide. In 3.5 it’s a -4 penalty to attack and AC.
Right, squeezing does apply that -4 to attack and AC, but there is also a rule that you can't end your movement in a square occupied by another creature.
CRB, p. 193. "You can’t end your movement in the same square as another creature unless it is helpless."
Same page, "A creature can squeeze past a creature while moving but it can’t end its movement in an occupied square."
You might be able to attack from an ally's square if you were using Spring Attack, or if you provoked an AOO on your movement and the enemy responded with something that in turn provoked an AOO from you. But in general, you cannot attack from a square occupied by an ally because you cannot end your movement in the same square as an ally.
Right. I believe it's more about what the GM rules. In my tables (in person and forums) we just used the regular squeezing rules from 3.5 instead of the "improvements" of you can't end your movement in an square occupied by another creature (if both creatures are in agreement with the squeeze).
By the way, sharing the square with another creature is the only way a tiny or smaller creature would be able to attack. I believe Paizo wrote it somewhere as some sort of exception to the rule of "can't end your movement" but regardless, I believe it's much simpler to rule as I described on the first paragraph (and the penalties are quite strong).
Squeezing should use the 3.5 ruling, but the GM should ultimately decide. In 3.5 it’s a -4 penalty to attack and AC.
LOL, that's why I didn't find it :)
Never actually played 3.5, started here on the boards back in '14 playing pathfinder.
Simpler, perhaps, but not everyone uses rules from 3.5 at their table. I know I don't when I GM.
On the sharing another square subject, Ratfolk have an ability that lets two of them attack from the same square, and being Tiny or smaller does have an exception to the rule. Of course, you also pay for that in the size of the damage die, so there's a kind of balance to it.
I've never played 3.5 either and don't use their rules. The only squeezing rule in effect is if you are in a "corridor" smaller than you, then you are squeezing and can attack at -4.
So a little confused, it looks like Fley didn't go, should I move Ian back up beside Donnen?