Wrath of the Righteous for Paladins

Game Master trawets71

Haven't played war for the crown so I'm guessing you mean it's a bit of an escort mission/recruit help.

Could I get a marching order please.

Also, you can't use stealth and have a light source. Anybody looking is going to see the light source moving.

That, and you are also dropped underground which saves you from a disastrous battle that is way out of your league.

For marching order:
Leothar, Donnen, Ian, Fley, NPCs, Ardriel, Petsha?
We'll be double file when we can.

Leothar in front makes sense as he has the best AC. Donnen's reach weapon means he can also attack of we are stuck in single file.

I don't have strong preferences after that but was thinking another 2 PCs, then the NPCs, then a rear-guard of 2 PCs. We can rotate positions if we get hurt.

I'm ok with that marching order, if we want Ian's hallo 'off' let me know.

I'm good with that marching order. Since both I and Peshta are going to be focusing on ranged combat, we're probably best suited to be in the rear.

It works for me! At future levels Donnen will get a lot more defensive but at this moment this looks good. With the Dwarven speed, once my stationary fight stances kick in I’ll need to be as close to combat as possible in order to be efficient on the guardian role, at which point I’ll recommend a switch.

That order is fine with me as well.

Beyond that I have two thoughts. Would anyone mind if I made a google sheets to keep track of the treasure we find (I'd probably just make it public so anyone could edit it and not worry about security)? Is anyone else slightly nervous about the number that's going up below the link to the map?

a Google sheet tracking treasure would be great.

And no I wasn't nervous about the number, until you pointed it out...

Please feel free to do so, Petsha, and thanks for it!

One suggestion: my groups usually do a little system that helps a fair distribution of the "loot". Basically, if you need to use something from the party loot, than you can have it for half of its cost, coming out of your share of the next gold split.

So, if someone wants to use that 1000 gold cape, for example, they can "buy" it from the party loot for half the cost (as if we were going to sell it to a vendor). The person doesn't have to pay directly, but can wait for the next gold split to have enough to afford, or people can lend each other. It's not a perfect system but it keeps it on the fair side as some people have a trend to want everything for themselves. Of course it doesn't apply for artifacts, but in such cases we can all vote between ourselves if there's a dispute.

As for the number below the map: yes, I had been noticing it! The "100" now became "233". Hehe :)

As for splitting loot, the biggest thing I recommend is a 'group share' so we split it seven ways, instead of six. The 'group share' going to the purchase of wands and such to keep the group health. That way it's not coming out of the cleric's Hierophants portion.

I hadn't been paying attention to the number until now. I'm also not entirely sure what it means. Maybe the death toll in Kenabres?

The numbers might be XP. It went up around the time we killed the maggots. Maybe we got some for handling the NPCs too. Guess we'll have to wait and see.

A Google sheet would be great I think. Would help for sure

I am not going to tell you how to divide the loot. I will only say that I've always played that if someone needs something, it's theirs. Having the magic bow in the hands of the archer is good for the party as a whole. Since this is an all paladin part there is going to be duplication of need. What ever you guys decide is fine as long as everyone is happy with it.

I've seen a few suggestions on retrieving the backpack. Once someone does something, makes some rolls I'll tell you what happens. The cloudwalking scale is automatic no rolls needed.

Yall are a paranoid bunch! :) I have CRS, Cant Remember Sh!t. I haven't decided if I'm going to use XP or level up as suggested in the AP. The number is simply one character's share of the total XP. You do gain XP for making each NPC friendly and then helpful. This part of the AP has a number of story awards in it for gaining allies and generally doing the right thing. Sometimes there is no XP but there are other rewards. I don't expect to have too much trouble with an all Paladin group doing the right thing but ya never know. In my home game I had someone attack Horgus. It wasn't pretty.

I agree with both Ian and Donnen. A seven-way split of the loot with one "group share", portion, and you can 'buy' items found for 1/2 their cost coming out of your next share of the split.

I have mixed emotions on how to deal with splitting the loot.

'Purchasing items' is the fairest way to make sure everyone gets an even split. But it's a mathematical nightmare and it forces us to 'sell items' of greater value to purchase items of lesser value because no one can carry 'the debt' forever.

I tend to want to use what we find, instead of selling it at half value and purchasing something worth less, that always seemed wasteful to me.

But doing so means that the 'balance of wealth' varies on what we find and who can use it. One way to offset that is the item is owned by the group, but used by that person. When they stop using the item it's sale goes back to the group or if they want to upgrade the item or claim the item as their own they pay the half price.

Or, since we are playing lawful good paladins, no one should try and hoard all the goodies for themselves anyway. So we just ask for what we need and split the rest. It would be much less math...

Having said that, I'm good with 1/2 the cost coming off the next share. But I don't want to do the math. If we find we are selling too much magical gear maybe we can relook at it.

I've got a link to a potential loot sheet in my header now. I've tried to make it mostly automated so that there's not a lot we have to do other than entering what we've found, its value (or for items the sell value) and what's currently being done with it. It in theory lets us know what an approximate share of the treasure would look like value-wise, and where everyone is sitting. I'm not all that worried about who's going to get the valuable stuff in this case, but the sheet should do the tracking in any case.

If anyone has changes they would like to see do let me know (or you're welcome to make them as anyone can edit it.) I'm also happy to answer any questions if anything there isn't clear. The second sheet is just there to do some calculations behind the scenes, so you can leave it alone.

Ah, individual XP count. That's what's that number is.

I'm personally a fan of milestone leveling, but I'm good with whatever.

As far as loot distribution...one of the things this AP does is give out a fair number of artifact-level items. Some of them don't have actual prices - for instance, the scales we just found are considered minor artifacts and have no GP value.

Wrath of the Righteous is a different AP in several ways, not just the addition of Mythic. We might be better off examining items on a case-by-case basis as we go forward, instead of going with a method of buying items out of the loot pool.

If we do decide to go with buying items out of the loot pool, I'd prefer it only apply to permanent items like weapons, armor, and the like, and not consumables.

I really have no strong preference on loot distribution as long as it seems reasonably fair.

I do think that using what you find is cooler than going shopping. But, I also imagine that at least some amount of "selling/shopping" (which in story might be us gifting unneeded items to other Crusaders and them giving other items to us) might be necessary if only for the fact that there will be a lot of overlap in our wants. The AP is unlikely to hand out six sets of Bracers of the Avenging Knight for example.

Thanks for the loot sheet Petsha. As I said I'll leave it up to you guys. As someone else mentioned you're a bunch of LG Paladins your characters should act selfless :) I can see it now, No you take, No you I insist.

For now at least all the look need to be on someone's sheet and the weight reflected as there is no bag of holding for it all to go in.

A section of your sheet with future build ideas and wants isn't a bad it. When I played this I had my paladins build more or less worked out as far as when I would take feats and path abilities. Doesn't mean you can't change it as your character evolves. It is also a good place to put magic items you want as I may swap out things. If you haven't played this one before I don't want to spoil it but there is a powerful item coming up that you will need to figure out who gets it.

I'll bow out of that powerful item discussion now - I know what it is, and I also know it's going to be more useful in someone else's hands.

Yeah, thank you Petsha for the loot sheet! Definitely handy.

I've played through the WotR Adventure Card Game. It's been quite a few years though. Don't really remember much in terms of spoilers, mostly that it was pretty brutal.

Haven't planned too far for Fley. I'll start gathering some potential feats/abilities/items that he may want down the line.

I had data on Donnen's sheet about plans, but like mentioned, it's not written in stone. It's just plans.

We're all paladins - that's our group's gimmick! - and of course we have some overlapping. We're definitely all martially capable, for instance - full BAB class, right? We all starve in skills, even if certain archetypes relax it. With the exception of my character, I believe everybody else wants Charisma. And so on.

At the same time, though, WotR establishes very clear roles - that certain groups don't follow necessarily, but I think it's in the core of our specific one. Guardian, Hierophant, Champion, Trickster, Archmage, Marshal, we're all embracing it, and this might help us with some division, but not all.

Like I mentioned, the system I suggested applies to items with a price tag. And we don't have to "buy" immediately or even "buy" officially; it's just a matter to keep a certain level of control. Of course it doesn't apply for the artifacts and other items where (I hope) we can come to a consensus or some sort of voting.

I played WotR other times, although never until the end. I imagine "the" item being talked about and other interesting ones as well. "That" particular item is clearly designed for paladins, and I'm pretty sure at least four of us have a "claim" to it. I guess we will cross that bridge when we get there.

At this point, I'm happy to simply be here. Very excited to see the game is so active; maybe this one will, hopefully, go far! Oh, that would be great. Finally, I need to say, I'd get to see the mid to high levels of it.

How closely should I be tracking arrow use for non-magical arrows. Should I be making sure to salvage them after every fight if I can or are we hand-waving that a bit for the sake of moving along at a better clip?

For now you need to track what you have. I would recommend roll % on each miss as it happens. 51-00 and you recover the arrow. Mark off all hits and anything not recovered. The first part involves resource management until you get back to "civilization".

I guess my consolation here is that I'm not burning through my arrow supply.

I've placed my planned build for feats in my profile, and noted which ones come from non-CRB sources and would need approval. I have not completely decided upon my Mythic feat structure yet.

I have no particular feat plans for Leothar yet. Will wait and see what needs we have, and be flexible.

Accordingly, I don't yet have a wish list for items. If I end up doing the Bull Rush/Overrun approach, there are some belts and boots that help those tactics.

I added some thoughts on the kind of item that would be useful for Donnen, at least how I view him right now. Being honest, I think his build might change over time as we identify the gaps on our groups. For now it seems the dice roller has been our biggest issue :)

I don't remember if the conversation came up in recruitment, but would you consider using the automatic bonus progression? It would eliminate the need for the 'big six' and make magical items more... magical?

That dice roller has been awful. You guys are averaging about 50/50 to hit these things and can't seem to. They have about a 25% chance to hit depending on who they attack. I hope no one gets offended at the scolding that's coming, but it's totally in character. :)

Yeah, somehow a string of 4, 5, 18, 4 and 1 to hit wasn't quite what I was looking for, but that's random number generators for you.

The all-Paladin party - we ain’t noticing bupkis.

Looks like I forgot to move the huecuva when it went. That should have keep you in the door. If I don't move an icon on the map but mention it moving could you go with what's described or at least question it.

How do you guys want to handle knowledge checks? I don't want the results of a check to slow things down while waiting. I've seen a few solutions to this. I can spoiler some basic info with a DC. You can decide individually or as a group what info you want in order. IE: special defenses, special offenses etc. Do you want me to randomly give you some info? Or is there another solution? The goal is to get you guys information and keep the game moving.

Understood, GM. Apologies.

I find that the spoiler with some basic info and a DC is the best route to handle the Knowledge checks. Since additional information only applies at a rate of one piece of knowledge for every 5 by which you beat the DC, I think maybe we should let each individual choose what information they want. What does everyone else think?

A word about detect evil. The standard paladin ability allows you to use detect evil as the spell. Just like Detect Magic it takes three rounds to find out what is evil in a 60 degree cone. Paladins have the ability to concentrate on one person or item to see if it is evil as a move action. If this is done no other sources of evil are detected.

Please see the chart at the bottom for the results of detect evil here Your training would have included knowing that detect evil won't find an evil person or creature unless they are at least 5 HD or an evil spell or item unless it is at least 6th caster level. The exceptions are undead, outsiders and divine classes.

Aware of it - I asked “am I in the presence of evil” as this is what one round will tell me. It won’t tell me about the power of the aura or who the evil agent is, and depending of what he is (type, class, HD) I might not even detect it. Still, it’s fine for my action here.

I'm not trying to be difficult, but I did see this encounter as a grey area.

Mercy is when you have every right to kill someone and you don't.
Murder is when you have no right to kill someone and you do.
This situation was... blurry. At least as I see it.

There are definitely RPG encounters where people attack you who are not actually your enemy - mistaken identity, misinformation, mental compulsion, etc. And there is such a thing as disproportionate retribution (like, in a bar brawl, you don't respond to a NL punch with lethal force).

I don't know what the designers' intent here was. Clearly the dwarf seemed a bit mad, so maybe we were just supposed to kill him and not worry about it. Doesn't quite sit right with me, but whatever.

Odd situation for sure, I agree with your evaluation of mercy and murder, as you said we don't know what the designers intent was.

In character Ian, as well as others in the party, tried to talk to him. He used 'magic' a very lethal weapon, on the party. So Ian was willing to defend the party. It seems like a sad case of self defense'

Someone pointed out somewhere the magic he used was non-lethal, I don't know that Ian would have known that, all he knew was Fley was down. Seems a little 'gamy' to go 'he only cast color spray' especially when that's one of the most effective low level 'control/debuff' spells for murder hobo's.

Also, I wish Leothar had been more vocal or pointed in his desire to incapacitate the guy. If someone communicates a direction/desire Ian would try and facilitate that instead of do the exact opposite.

As I pointed out in the game thread, I didn't realize your second attack was non-lethal, and without saying something I don't know that it would change how anyone else acted.

You know, we have a masterwork warhammer that might have been better to use to try and knock someone out. How about it, dwarves who worship Torag? Either of you want it?

As far as the encounter with the Dwarf...let's see if we can find anything in his belongings that tells us more about him, his motivations, and what he was doing down here.

You know, we have a masterwork warhammer that might have been better to use to try and knock someone out. How about it, dwarves who worship Torag? Either of you want it?

Hey if neither of the dwarves want the Warhammer of Torag, Ian will take as a secondary weapon, he could only afford an alchemical small mace.

Also if anyone wants the MasterWork backpack just say something, Ian's still carrying it around but, since he's in heavy armor it won't make that much of a difference.

Also, I wish Leothar had been more vocal or pointed in his desire to incapacitate the guy. If someone communicates a direction/desire Ian would try and facilitate that instead of do the exact opposite.

If he had been knocked negative, I was going to use my potion of CLW to save him. Rather than get into a discussion about it mid-combat. I will try to make my intentions clearer in the future but I fully understand we will have differences of opinion and we will all do what we think best.

I disagree with the gun analogy, since it was his dagger AOO (which did not put Leothar in legitimate fear for his life) that triggered lethal force by our side, before any offensive magic was used. But what's done is done.

Feel free to continue to discuss what happened here. I'm going to give a little meta and some in game info. Donnen did a sense motive which told him the was stark raving mad and was in no way going to back down but try to kill you all. If he had gotten to 5 HP he would have tried to get away. I didn't think Donnen could reach him and that those that could would not be able to drop him so I posted his action after what I thought was going to be 2 AoO. He was 3 HD and wasn't going to be dropped if both hit him. That weapon of Donnen averages 42 damage on a crit when he is powerattacking. Nasty! I tried to keep things moving by not waiting for the AoOs. I think in the future I will spoiler what happens when I post like that.

ninja'd by our GM, will leave the post as is

I disagree with the gun analogy, since it was his dagger AOO (which did not put Leothar in legitimate fear for his life) that triggered lethal force by our side. But what's done is done.

So the first thing he did was cast the defensive spell. Using magic in this world is showing you have a potentially dangerous weapon available to you, so in my mind it would be similar to drawing a firearm.

Yes, if someone is holding a gun and a knife I would be less concerned about the knife. He used the knife for the aoo probably because mechanically he was unable to use magic, the next thing he did was cast a second spell.

So the first thing he did was cast the defensive spell. Using magic in this world is showing you have a potentially dangerous weapon available to you, so in my mind it would be similar to drawing a firearm.

I just don't agree with that at all. That somebody cast cast Blur does not place Leothar in legitimate fear of his life.

If that is how you want to RP your character, that is your choice.

There are also monks who are extremely lethal unarmed. And psychics. Anybody could be lethal. I do recognize that our real-world paradigm of threat assessment doesn't transfer exactly and it does make "self-defense" harder to prove.

All I can say is that Leothar was not in fear for his life.

Ian Passeri wrote:

So the first thing he did was cast the defensive spell. Using magic in this world is showing you have a potentially dangerous weapon available to you, so in my mind it would be similar to drawing a firearm.

I just don't agree with that at all. That somebody cast cast Blur does not place Leothar in legitimate fear of his life.

If that is how you want to RP your character, that is your choice.

There are also monks who are extremely lethal unarmed. And psychics. Anybody could be lethal. I do recognize that our real-world paradigm of threat assessment doesn't transfer exactly and it does make "self-defense" harder to prove.

All I can say is that Leothar was not in fear for his life.

This is sort of like pulling on that loose thread on your sweater, you know you shouldn't but you can't resist.

I don't play a lot of casters, so I didn't think about it being just a blur spell, and I know that Ian, who has no magical training or knowledge, had no way of knowing it was a blur spell. The information available was that the NPC could and did use magic and tried to injure one of us.

Like you said, Anybody can be lethal, hopefully our characters can communicate their intentions better to each other in game, so we, as players, can make decisions based on what they know, instead of what we know.

Ian - I'll take the masterwork backpack if no one else wants it. With only a strength of 10, Fley may need all the help he can get!

Ian - I'll take the masterwork backpack if no one else wants it. With only a strength of 10, Fley may need all the help he can get!

done, I will post in game.

I've updated the loot sheet (and added a column so that we can more easily find the posts where things were first introduced in case we need to later on.) I'm not tracking on the sheet where the potions currently are and am leaving that to players to record on character sheets. I'm also assuming that we did take the ring off the Hecuva back at the temple; we would have checked in for magic back when Ardriel did the potions I assume, though we didn't mention it. There are a few items now that could use more examining (the ring, the statuette, the spellbook.)

In any case, if you see anything out of place, do still let me know!

There was a cloak as well on the dwarf.

Thanks! Updated.

The family and I took off today and *gasp* actually ate in a restaurant, The Mad Greek in Charlotte, NC. I almost forgot what that was like.