Ammo, "easy reach", and non-"easy reach" items - why the difference?

RAW says :
1. Getting ammo is a Free action, no AoO.
2. Getting materials components for spells is a Free action, no AoO.
3. Getting an item within "easy reach" is a Move action, no AoO.
4. Getting an item that is not within "easy reach" (a "stored item") is a Move action, AoO.

<I know the answer to the following is "game balance" or "so that archers and casters can act every round", but...>

I just cannot wrap my mind around the concept that the amount of time it takes to grab an object depends on the kind of object that it is.

Grabbing something within "easy reach" is a Free action if it's ammo or spell components, but a Move action if it's anything else? Really?

Or are we saying that ammo and spell components are somehow within "easier reach"? Sorry, I don't buy that. Spell components in a pouch are more accessible than a potion bottle in a pouch?
An arrow from a quiver is easier to grab than a wand from a quiver? (I know technically the wand is being "drawn", let's not go there, I hope you get the idea I'm trying to get across...).

Any thoughts?

It is determined on how they are organized/designed. A quiver is designed so that an archer can reload quickly. The same for spell components.

Potions have no such assumptions, unless you want to design a easy reach potion contraption which is not exactly within the rules.

Like a bandolier that leaves them vulnerable to failed item saves if you fail yours perhaps?

Either way let's just hope this doesn't end in another 'corrective' debacle involving making any not-arrow ammo a move action again or something!

I also believe that drawing arrows and drawing spell components are considered to be part of the standard action of firing the bow or casting the spell.

As mentioned in the other "Free Action" thread, some free actions (like knocking an arrow, or grabbing components) are free because they are a part of a larger, usually standard action.

If you wanted to grab components from your spell pouch outside of casting a spell, it'd be a move action.

It is determined on how they are organized/designed. A quiver is designed so that an archer can reload quickly. The same for spell components.

Potions have no such assumptions, unless you want to design a easy reach potion contraption which is not exactly within the rules.

Well, not so much...

example: pouch with coins in it vs pouch with shuriken in it. Free action it pull out sharp pointy object and move action to pull out coin...

IMO this falls clearly under game balance. And to nefreet, I point you to shurikens. It's always a free action to pull them out.

why can I not have everything for nothing, part 59239485

And to nefreet, I point you to shurikens. It's always a free action to pull them out.

...in conjunction with the attack action, yes.

It is solely a balance issue. Allowing things like potions and wands to be drawn as free actions would be incredibly powerful, and significantly change the way the game functions.

It would also remove some of the utility items that already exist within the game, such as the Sipping Jacket.

graystone wrote:

And to nefreet, I point you to shurikens. It's always a free action to pull them out.

...in conjunction with the attack action, yes.

Looking under 'Draw or Sheathe a Weapon' action you only need a free action. Nothing states that it MUST be with an attack. Even under the equipment section if says "When using a bow, a character can draw ammunition as a free action". Note it doesn't say 'When attacking with a bow'.

If there an FAQ linking it to an attack? If so please provide link.

1) This is in easier to grab spots, and I believe grabbing it may actually fall under "not an action" rather than a free action.
2) I always thought the components were just consumed from the pouch. No need to grab them.
3) your "potion" on your belt has got to be attached somehow. It takes a second to unclipped it.
4) I'm pretty sure grabbing a stored item is a standard action, unless you have a haversack, in which case it's only a move because it's magic.

Shuriken, by RAW, are treated as Ammo for purposes of drawing, crafting, and what happens after they are launched (they mulch like ammo rather than no mulch like thrown melee weapons). So, by RAW, it is a free action to draw a shuriken for the purpose of throwing it; the rationale is that it's a free action subsidized by spending spending some kind of equivalent action economy for the purpose of throwing it. But to draw it just to hold it in your hand and admire how pretty and well-balanced it is, you must spend a move action as the Manipulate an Item action. As for being in easy reach, that's more a matter of simple logic. The rules don't say that the arrows, shuriken, etc. need to be kept on your person in a reasonable manner to be drawn at need, but that hardly means you can draw one to fire as a free action when it's in the bottom of your pack; unless it's a handy haversack.

Nefreet wrote:

graystone wrote:

And to nefreet, I point you to shurikens. It's always a free action to pull them out.

...in conjunction with the attack action, yes.

under the equipment section if says "When using a bow, a character can draw ammunition as a free action". Note it doesn't say 'When attacking with a bow'.

What else do you "use" a bow for but "attacking"?

Nefreet wrote:

graystone wrote:

And to nefreet, I point you to shurikens. It's always a free action to pull them out.

...in conjunction with the attack action, yes.

Looking under 'Draw or Sheathe a Weapon' action you only need a free action. Nothing states that it MUST be with an attack. Even under the equipment section if says "When using a bow, a character can draw ammunition as a free action". Note it doesn't say 'When attacking with a bow'.

If there an FAQ linking it to an attack? If so please provide link.

Move Action
Move
Control a frightened mount
Direct or redirect an active spell
Draw a weapon
Load a hand crossbow or light crossbow
Open or close a door
Mount/dismount a steed
Move a heavy object
Pick up an item (see FAQ) Yes (see FAQ)
Sheathe a weapon

Drawing and sheathing a weapon is normally a move action. The purpose of Quick Draw is it allows you to pull it as a free action.

The only time you can draw a weapon as a free action is if you have a +1 or greather BAB. You are able to draw your weapon while you move.

What else do you "use" a bow for but "attacking"?

As a walking stick

Love it.

Wait a minute... does this mean that if I take Quick Draw and Throw Anything (or Catch Off-Guard), I can simply mentally class a potion/wand as an "improvised weapon," draw it as a free action, and then change my mind and use it for its conventional purpose instead?

people seemed to have missed something. The draw action for ammunition assumes they are in an appropriate container and ready to be drawn (what that container is for a shuriken i havent a clue) if i have my shuriken in my backpack its a move action that provokes to get them out.

You dont have like 500 items dangling in full view of the enemy.

Unless you're an alchemist, of course.

Wait a minute... does this mean that if I take Quick Draw and Throw Anything (or Catch Off-Guard), I can simply mentally class a potion/wand as an "improvised weapon," draw it as a free action, and then change my mind and use it for its conventional purpose instead?

No.

That's what we're trying to explain here.

Drawing ammunition, in and of itself, is a move action (just like retrieving any item is).

If you are choosing the attack action, or full attack action, or using Snap Shot, then you may draw your ammunition as a free action associated with the attack action you are taking.

Seems clear enough. Though just phrasing it as 'part of' the standard action without using any terminology associated with other action types might have been better - to avoid confusion.

(Assuming one thinks confusion is not inevitable.)

Drawing ammunition, in and of itself, is a move action (just like retrieving any item is).

If you are choosing the attack action, or full attack action, or using Snap Shot, then you may draw your ammunition as a free action associated with the attack action you are taking.

I would even just get rid of the free action and say you pull the ammunition as part of your attack action.

The issue I have with 'free action' is I thought there was an errata some months ago where you have a limit of three free actions you can take in a round. And you should never be shorted on ranged attacks (if you take a full-attack action) because you ran out of free actions to pull arrows.

That example was quickly removed from the FAQ due to the vitriolic reactions of the forums within moments of its release.

graystone wrote:

Nefreet wrote:

graystone wrote:

And to nefreet, I point you to shurikens. It's always a free action to pull them out.

...in conjunction with the attack action, yes.

under the equipment section if says "When using a bow, a character can draw ammunition as a free action". Note it doesn't say 'When attacking with a bow'.

What else do you "use" a bow for but "attacking"?

Wielding maybe? Use isn't a game term. If my magic bow has Light Generation I can be using my bow to see and not making an attack.

To Hobbun. If you read the actual section 'Draw or Sheathe a Weapon', it has a section on ammo being a free action.

To Mojorat. 'Bullets come in a leather pouch' and if I pull them out I can do so as a free action but if I put coins in it it takes a move action to remove them. The 'appropriate container' is meaningless. It's for game balance not logic.

Taking a bullet out of a pouch is a move action.

Unless you're attacking with a firearm.

Taking a coin out of a pouch is a free action.

But only when using it as ammunition.

Nefreet wrote:

graystone wrote:

Nefreet wrote:

graystone wrote:

And to nefreet, I point you to shurikens. It's always a free action to pull them out.

...in conjunction with the attack action, yes.

under the equipment section if says "When using a bow, a character can draw ammunition as a free action". Note it doesn't say 'When attacking with a bow'.

What else do you "use" a bow for but "attacking"?

Wielding maybe? Use isn't a game term. If my magic bow has Light Generation I can be using my bow to see and not making an attack.

To Hobbun. If you read the actual section 'Draw or Sheathe a Weapon', it has a section on ammo being a free action.

To Mojorat. 'Bullets come in a leather pouch' and if I pull them out I can do so as a free action but if I put coins in it it takes a move action to remove them. The 'appropriate container' is meaningless. It's for game balance not logic.

No its not, say i have a pouch with 20 bullets in it and two powder horns with enough black powder. I ave 20 shots ready.

I have another 80 bulets and a keg with 80 shots worth of powder in my backpack. If i run out of bullets in my pouch the stuff in the backpack is not being drawn as a free action.

For the same reason you dont store 100 arrows in a backpack and draw them as a free action skipping the use of a quiver.

I agree with the several people who have said this already - I think the problem goes away *entirely* if you just say that grabbing the ammo is part of the "loading" action.

By defining the grabbing part as a separate Free action, it just creates inconsistencies (like Nefreet's most recent post - that's really great!).

I also believe that drawing arrows and drawing spell components are considered to be part of the standard action of firing the bow or casting the spell.

Though it works that way in practice, since free actions are free, I think:

• Drawing ammunition is an action—a free action

• Nocking an arrow is not an action, i.e. is part of the ranged attack action.

• Preparing spell components for casting (=retrieving?) is a free action. See combat actions chart.

Regarding this thread in general, and as others have pointed out, I think it works for game balance even with the inconsistencies that arise when comparing coins and shuriken, for example.

Going slightly astray... What if the free action of drawing ammo provoked, rather than the standard action of making a ranged attack? It seems to me that firing an already-nocked arrow shouldn't provoke. Also, that seems to fit with multiple ranged attacks provoking multiple AoO's.

RAW says :

1. Getting ammo is a Free action, no AoO.
2. Getting materials components for spells is a Free action, no AoO.
3. Getting an item within "easy reach" is a Move action, no AoO.
4. Getting an item that is not within "easy reach" (a "stored item") is a Move action, AoO.

<I know the answer to the following is "game balance" or "so that archers and casters can act every round", but...>

I just cannot wrap my mind around the concept that the amount of time it takes to grab an object depends on the kind of object that it is.

Grabbing something within "easy reach" is a Free action if it's ammo or spell components, but a Move action if it's anything else? Really?

Or are we saying that ammo and spell components are somehow within "easier reach"? Sorry, I don't buy that. Spell components in a pouch are more accessible than a potion bottle in a pouch?
An arrow from a quiver is easier to grab than a wand from a quiver? (I know technically the wand is being "drawn", let's not go there, I hope you get the idea I'm trying to get across...).

Any thoughts?

You think thats bad, look at the various "drinking" rules

Drinking something other then a potion... not listed, but probably standard.

Drinking a potion = standard, provokes AoO (move with Accelerated Drinker trait)
Drinking alcohol (Drunken Master) = standard, no AoO. (swift with Fast Drinker)
Drinking alcohol (Drunken Rager) = standard, no aoO (can't do faster)

A Drunken Brute (barbarian) can drink a potion or alcohol as a move, no AoO (can't do faster)

Low alcohol content drinks like beer/ale are heavy (1-2 lbs, depending on type); high alcohol content drinks like whiskey are approx 1 oz (.75-1.5 depending on type and location... or 25-50 ML), and potions are 1 oz.

So with Accelerated Drinker, if I drink a potion, its a move. but if I'm confused and I drink the wrong vial (whiskey), its now a standard...

But with Swift Drinker, if I drink a vial of whiskey, its a swift, but if I'm confused and drink my potion of Cure Light, its a standard. probably the reviling recoil when you realize its "just flavored water." But chugging a pint is still faster then a potion

IIRC, it's Jason that stated, while people arguing about the free action advice FAQ, that drawing ammunitions as free actions was stupid and it should have been tied the the attack action. But for the sake of continuity and to avoid getting a sheep-ton of erratas and reprints, they didn't change that wording in the books, because it was minor.

For the drawing stuff about potions and weapon, the answer was clear: You get a lot more benefits from using a scroll/potion/wand than a weapon.

So yeah, balance. And they'll probably never go back on this one.

Grumpus wrote:

I also believe that drawing arrows and drawing spell components are considered to be part of the standard action of firing the bow or casting the spell.

Though it works that way in practice, since free actions are free, I think:

• Drawing ammunition is an action—a free action

• Nocking an arrow is not an action, i.e. is part of the ranged attack action.

• Preparing spell components for casting (=retrieving?) is a free action. See combat actions chart.

Regarding this thread in general, and as others have pointed out, I think it works for game balance even with the inconsistencies that arise when comparing coins and shuriken, for example.

Going slightly astray... What if the free action of drawing ammo provoked, rather than the standard action of making a ranged attack? It seems to me that firing an already-nocked arrow shouldn't provoke. Also, that seems to fit with multiple ranged attacks provoking multiple AoO's.

The REAL question is why are you posting about this crap when you are on vacation in Hawaii?

In my game I rule, that every item which is in a container dedicated to this item is "easy obtainable".

So a potion on a potion belt - yes
Scroll in Backpack - No
Scroll in Scroll Belt - yes

Improtant here for me is, that the player track the items (dedicated containers have 5 slots, 8 if masterwork).

It is determined on how they are organized/designed. A quiver is designed so that an archer can reload quickly. The same for spell components.

Potions have no such assumptions, unless you want to design a easy reach potion contraption which is not exactly within the rules.

How about I tie my potions to arrows and put those in a quiver?

I just got a great idea!!
There are hats that can tie cans to the hat and lead a straw to your mouth. We could create a hat that does the same for a beverage or potion to be attached to such a hat with a straw that allows you to suck it up.

Hmm what would such a hat take in time to consume a potion???? I'd say it doesn't provoke, but would still require an action????
Any thoughts???