Theorycrafting is a huge part of tabletop games, but too often it seems like some of the most epic builds we create end up as just fun ideas and never see a gaming table. With that in mind, I am opening up a Pathfinder Brawl tournament.
The first and most important rule will be that everyone make every effort to separate player from character knowledge. You will be aware of your opponent's position at almost all times. You may also be aware of some of their strategy. You will be expected to play your character acting only on the information he or she has. At any time you are not competing in good faith you will be issued a Yellow Card, which will result in a sizable debuff for the remainder of that combat, or you may be issued a Red Card and immediately forfeit that round.
Each round you will be paired in a 1v1 deathmatch with one other competitor. The winner of that deathmatch will receive victory points equal to your current character level (1pt at lvl 1, 2pts at lvl 2, and so on). In the unlikely event of a simultaneous KO the combatants will split the victory points.
Battlemaps you compete on may provide special buffs or debuffs complicating your combat.
After each match both combatants will be magically transported to a waiting room where the loser will be revived and both participants will be fully healed.
At regular intervals (lvls 1, 5, 10, 15, and 20) there will then be a team play round where you may be paired with one or more teammates to see how your build plays with others. Every combatant on the winning team will again receive victory points equal to your current character level. Alternatively, at some levels you might participate in a multiple participant battle royale, 1v1v1v...v1.
After all matches in a particular round are completed and all characters are healed, you will then level up to the next level, upgrade old gear and purchase new gear to bring your WBL to an appropriate level and the next round will begin. Lather, rinse, repeat. Each level you will receive the difference between the previous level’s WBL and the next level’s. In addition, at no time can combat consumables make up more than 10% of your total wealth except for level 1 where you may have 1 scroll or potion costing no more than 50 gp. Also, no single item can make up more than 50% of your total wealth at any level.
As you level you may also sell back gear that you are no longer using. Standard 50% sell back rates apply. Because of this if you do a lot of sell back and use a lot of consumables you may end up significantly below the curve on WBL. Be aware of this.
At the end, wherever we decide to end, the player with the most victory points will win! You will walk away with a virtual trophy *OOooh, AAaaah* and bragging rights.
This is a tournament of heroes! So, we will be going with 25pt buy builds. You may take 2 non-campaign traits. No traits may be taken that adjust the amount of your starting gold or provide you with equipment or equipment upgrades for free. This helps balance everyone’s wealth and makes it easier for me to give everyone the same amount of money as they level.
All Paizo Classes are available, but no 3pp materials. Guns? Occult? Summoners chained and unchained? All fair game.
For races, I tend to think that the race inequalities shake out within the first few levels of gameplay. With the tournament rules the way they are, sweeping levels 1-4 won’t matter much in the long run. For that reason, any paizo race with racepoints less than or equal to 19 is fair game. I know there are some really cool RP unknown races on the pfsrd, but there has to be a line somewhere.
It is 19 specifically so that Kasatha will be off-limits. The one racial ability that I think has real staying power is having more than 2 arms.
HP will be max for level one and then 1/2 hit die rounded up for all subsequent levels (d6=4, d8=5, etc). We will not be rolling for hp because I want to remove that randomness from the tournament and subsequent tier list.
Start your builds at level 1, but have an idea of a leveling path in mind. You don’t have to tell me, but you won’t have a ton of time to level up your character between fights, so having most of those decisions made ahead of time will help.
Starting wealth is 175 gp for every character. This puts everyone on the same page starting wealth wise and make additional wealth as you level easier.
Alignment is 100% open. The normal don’t be a d*** pbp rules do not apply here. You are meant to be evil and kill your opponent, so if you want to build and evil character then bring it.
Background is fairly unimportant since this will be more roll-playing than roleplaying, but there may be some light rping in between combats or while you guys wait for others to finish up...so having an idea of your voice would help. A full 10 minute background is not required...but maybe just a rough outline of their personality and appearance.
I plan to have recruitment open for 2 weeks, after which the maximum even number of builds following the build rules will be selected. Because this is a PVP unfortunately an odd submission would mean an odd man out each round, and that doesn’t really work. So if we get an odd number of completed submissions, I will be picking one of them at random to sit out the competition. Otherwise though, if you submit then you are in. Because of this I will be limiting submissions to one per player, so that everyone has a fair chance of winning the bragging rights and there is no chance of you being pitted against yourself.
Each level you will receive the below additional wealth:
Level 2 - 825gp
Level 3 - 2000gp
Level 4 - 3000gp
Level 5 - 4500gp
Level 6 - 5500gp
Level 7 - 7500gp
Level 8 - 9500gp
Level 9 - 13000gp
Level 10 - 16000gp
Level 11 - 20000gp
Level 12 - 26000gp
Level 13 - 32000gp
Level 14 - 45000gp
Level 15 - 55000gp
Level 16 - 75000gp
Level 17 - 95000gp
Level 18 - 120000gp
Level 19 - 155000gp
Level 20 - 195000gp
Because these are purely combat there is the potential for them to go rather quickly if both you and your combatant are online at the same time. I would still only request 1 post per day on weekdays though. If you do not post within 48 hours when it is your turn you will forfeit that combat unless you have communicated with the GM by private message ahead of time. If you forfeit two combats in this way you will be removed from the competition.
At the end of a combat round if we end up with an odd number of combatants because someone has been removed from the competition, the combatant with the lowest number of victory points will receive a bye for one round and automatically receive victory points as if they tied with their combatant that round (1/2 character level). If there is still an odd number of combatants after that round, the combatant that received the bye will be removed from the competition to keep the combatant number even.
If this occurs and there is a tie for the lowest number of victory points, the combatant receiving the bye and in danger of automatic elimination will be decided at random.
Answers to questions during build will be posted in the campaign info tab as well as responded to in recruitment.
When we level level up do we pay the difference to upgrade a magical item or do we have to sell for 50% and buy the upgraded one?
Example: +1 longsword -> +2 longsword.
Sell for 1,000gp and buy upgrade for 8,000. Cost = 7,000gp.
Upgrade by pay the difference between 2,000gp and 8,000gp. Cost = 6,000gp.
a similar game with PvM I am/was in just died in round two. But I'm open to try new stuff and will think of something.
Missed editing my post. Second question, is crafting allowed/discouraged penalised in any way?
What level are guns at? Regarding expense of ammo and weapons.
Upgrading details: You will be able to upgrade magical items without selling them back (so the 6k option in your example). The only exception is enchantments cannot be transfered, so the base item and any existing enchantments must stay the same. Eg, later on you decide you want a +1 flaming long sword, you can’t just change your +2 long sword into that. Either sell the +2 and buy a +1 flaming (net cost 4K), or pay the difference to making the sword a +2 flaming long sword (net cost 10k). Also, you would not be able to move your +2 enchantment over to say a battle axe, the same sell and repurchase would have to happen.
Firearms: Let’s go with guns being commonplace. That is the highest level of tech I have seen in a campaign that was not specifically about guns. It makes early guns somewhat more affordable and advanced guns something you can get to after a few levels. Modern guns do not exist. They are not balanced at all.
Crafting items: You May take crafting feats to craft your own magical gear and get a discount. We will be using the 25% WBL recommendation laid out in the pfsrd for limitations on how far that can go. :
You can take advantage of the item creation rules to hand-craft most or all of your magic items. Because you’ve spent gp equal to only half the price of these items, you could end up with more gear than what the Character Wealth by Level table suggests for you. This is especially the case if you’re a new character starting above 1st level or one with the versatile Craft Wondrous Item feat. With these advantages, you can carefully craft optimized gear rather than acquiring GM-selected gear over the course of a campaign. For example, a newly created 4th-level character should have about 6,000 gp worth of gear, but you can craft up to 12,000 gp worth of gear with that much gold, all of it taking place before the character enters the campaign, making the time-cost of crafting irrelevant.Some GMs might be tempted to reduce the amount or value of the treasure you acquire to offset this and keep your overall wealth in line with the Character Wealth by Level table. Unfortunately, that has the net result of negating the main benefit of crafting magic items — in effect negating your choice of a feat. However, game balance for the default campaign experience expects you and all other PCs to be close to the listed wealth values, so the GM shouldn’t just let you craft double the normal amount of gear. As a guideline, allowing a crafting PC to exceed the Character Wealth by Level guidelines by about 25% is fair, or even up to 50% if the PC has multiple crafting feats.
If you are creating items for other characters in the party, the increased wealth for the other characters should come out of your increased allotment. Not only does this prevent you from skewing the wealth by level for everyone in the party, but it encourages other characters to learn item creation feats.
Example: The Character Wealth by Level table states that an 8th-level character should have about 33,000 gp worth of items. Using the above 25% rule, Patrick’s 8th-level wizard with Craft Wondrous Item is allowed an additional 8,250 gp worth of crafted wondrous items. If he uses his feat to craft items for the rest of the party, any excess value the other PCs have because of those items should count toward Patrick’s additional 8,250 gp worth of crafted items.
Each crafting feat you take beyond your first will give you an additional 5% bonus to your WBL to a maximum of 50%.
Dot
Thinking a tiefling gunslinger off the top of my head but I’ll give it more thought.
This definitely has my interest peaked. So ... many ideas.
I take it we're not mucking around with Feat Tax rules or anything like that?
Is there any issues with animal companions?
I'm thinking halfling ninja. I might buy a cheap mount.
I generally like feat tax, but for this I think we need to stay closer to vanilla pf.
If you want to spend your starting wealth on pets or hirelings you may. For creatures that have a daily or weekly cost, we are going to go with a one month per level estimate, so pay your hirelings appropriately based on that.
I'm submitting this weird looking goblin!
Is the combat area going to be the same arena i.e same dimensions and is pre-buffing allowed?
Is the combat area going to be the same arena i.e same dimensions and is pre-buffing allowed?
Each round will feature a different battle map presenting interesting challenges, benefits, and potential strategies. In some pre-buffing will be easier than others based on distance, hiding places, or environmental buffs.
I was curious about additional logistics about the fights. Presuming there is just one online campaign, and one gameplay thread, will the matches be serialized, one at a time, or will many being going on in parallel in the same gameplay?
I actually plan on setting up multiple gameplay threads as seperate arenas so that battles can happen concurrently. This thread will be the main one, mostly just a lobby, but it will have links to the arenas in the campaign info at the top. Each round I will ask combatants to report to specific arenas to duke it out.
Essentially I will be taking the master maps that I put together and duplicating them for the battles. If we have say 10 participants, then I will have a Round 1A, Round 1B,..., Round 1E and a pair of combatants will be assigned to each map.
Dot for interest: My first idea... A cavalier. Possibly a Samurai horse archer.
Question: About classes that have companions- I feel like I know the result Almost immediately. Anyone playing a druid will decimate everyone with their wildcat grappler with throat-slicer while they constantly debuff you/buff their cat.
That honestly is the most broken and evil 1v1 combination build.
So my question is: What are you gonna do about this? Most animals have scent, can detect sneaking rogues, can run down any fighter/mage, and have stupid abilities for free.
It is a perfectly legal build...I think it is more of a question of what the other combatants are going to do about it.
We all know that druid and wizard top the tier list along with most other primary caster builds. It will be interesting to see what strategies are devised to play and counterplay around that since it is knowledge we all have.
Hmm, well the Cavelier comes into mind, I'd like to see the wizard try to tank a charge from a Cavelier....
Other than that, I think I'll build a Warrior poet Samurai kitsune... Who combines weapon finesse with a katana and Vital strike.
Best way to push those spellcasting skumbags out is to overpower them at lvl 1-5
Something to keep in mind, since this isn't an elimination tournament, winning the early levels will earn you victory points, which will be nice, but not keep you safe from the magic users in later levels. 1-5 gets you 15 points if you sweep it, that won't put you very high in the rankings of you get whooped consistently in 6-20 though.
A balanced build that can answer a number of magical and no magical challenges is your best bet.
Hmm, well the Cavelier comes into mind, I'd like to see the wizard try to tank a charge from a Cavelier....
Mirror Image comes to mind.
For my Aerokineticist I'm hoping to have a higher range than the spellcasters.
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Hmm, well the Cavelier comes into mind, I'd like to see the wizard try to tank a charge from a Cavelier....
Flight, the aforementioned mirror image, grease, caltrops, summoned monsters, invisibility, exploition the mount's weak Will save, exploiting the cavalier's weak Will save... There are some tips and tricks that could work.
I'm going to build one of those unsufferable spellcasters, indeed.
Question: would I be allowed to start as a middle-aged character?
I see no problems with it. It will be nice to see how a character based on me would do in the tournament. :)
not sure if this was thought of. I was in one of these before and there was a lot of disussion on the first round splat scenario.
that is (mostly at level 1, but can be higher levels as well) the winner of initiative goes and splats the opponent in a single hit. (not a crit)
this was very common with mounted characters (cavalier on a camel with a lance)
win initiative charge, lance has reach, camel does spit attack extra damage due to lance and mounted and charging. opponent dead never even got a turn.
Also any prep rounds? buff spells ahead of time?
I will reference back to the response I made earlier to Sargon...
Sargon The War Sage wrote:
Is the combat area going to be the same arena i.e same dimensions and is pre-buffing allowed?Nairb the Grey wrote:
Each round will feature a different battle map presenting interesting challenges, benefits, and potential strategies. In some pre-buffing will be easier than others based on distance, hiding places, or environmental buffs.
By way of example, the first map I have planned characters do not initially start with line of sight on each other and there are other factors that make an initiative winning OTK difficult. That won't be the case on every map...sometimes having first initiative will mean a significant advantage either in the first turn or in subsequent turns. All goes into how you design your character.
To clarify something that I wrote in that earlier response, there will not be any spell casting or actions taking place outside of normal initiative (so no pre-buffing in a literal sense). But, there may be strategies that a savvy caster can employ to get some buffs in place before stepping too much into danger depending on the map.
I will reference back to the response I made earlier to Sargon...
Sargon The War Sage wrote:
Is the combat area going to be the same arena i.e same dimensions and is pre-buffing allowed?Nairb the Grey wrote:
Each round will feature a different battle map presenting interesting challenges, benefits, and potential strategies. In some pre-buffing will be easier than others based on distance, hiding places, or environmental buffs.By way of example, the first map I have planned characters do not initially start with line of sight on each other and there are other factors that make an initiative winning OTK difficult. That won't be the case on every map...sometimes having first initiative will mean a significant advantage either in the first turn or in subsequent turns. All goes into how you design your character.
To clarify something that I wrote in that earlier response, there will not be any spell casting or actions taking place outside of normal initiative (so no pre-buffing in a literal sense). But, there may be strategies that a savvy caster can employ to get some buffs in place before stepping too much into danger depending on the map.
ok thanks for the answer. I should have looked closer, but I was trying to answer a text from my boss at the same time.
Kobold Klan here, Bringing out A Duegar Kineticist. Pure, Unbrittled energy here to smash, and destroy. Con based spellcasting for the win.
Don't mind the 3 Cha, He's an ugly MF but he packs a punch.
My goal will essentially be to be an anti-spellcaster. I will toss the buggers around the battlefield with gravity blasts and combat manuvers because let's face it- you can fly but you can't get out of my range.
Later levels I'll just remove the air from your lungs, Making it impossible to cast spells while I just watch...
Dot, thinking about bringing in a bloodrager, I'll get spells at a later level (4) and I get the Bloodraging thing.
Considering the amount of boasts in this thread, I hereby propose the following battle rule:
Every battle gives both challengers two free rounds that can only be used for posturing/flyting/rap battle.
I think I have a good one about kineticists and burn.
It has long been considered that talking (Within reason) is a free action, so I am comfortable with expanding that into: "Any and all smack talk is a free action. Note, smack talk has no mechanical effect and cannot be used for free social skill checks. "
is smack talk a variant of Performance Combat?
Smack talk has no mechanical effect. It is just a codification in rules what about half of the players on the board due automatically.
Sapiens here, this profile has my Wizard, ready to test all the anti-spellcaster measures the adversaries may take.
He still needs to buy a scroll and possibly some more items that will depend on who he's pit against.
Three questions:
1. if your Eidolon gets killed, and you go back to the lobby i know there is a wait time before you can summon the eidolon again. Would that wait time apply here?
2. If you get killed before your eidolon/animal companion, does your animal companion keep fighting, and if it wins, do you win?
3. I know that summoning an eidolon is a ritual that takes 1 whole minute to do, would you go to the arena with your eidolon summoned or would you have to summon it in the arena?
Three questions:
1. if your Eidolon gets killed, and you go back to the lobby i know there is a wait time before you can summon the eidolon again. Would that wait time apply here?
2. If you get killed before your eidolon/animal companion, does your animal companion keep fighting, and if it wins, do you win?
3. I know that summoning an eidolon is a ritual that takes 1 whole minute to do, would you go to the arena with your eidolon summoned or would you have to summon it in the arena?
OOF...Those are good questions...
Okay...Take the easy one first, also happens to be the first one, so that is fine.
1) I will be allowing characters to craft between levels. That indicates that there is some time passage happening, even if we are going to be fast forwarding through it. I think it is reasonable that that time passage can also be used to Resummon an eidolon, bond a new familiar or item bond, find a new animal companion...etc.
2) This one takes some more thought. I am of two minds. The fast answer for Eidolons is that the point is moot,
...If the summoner is unconscious, asleep, or killed, his eidolon is immediately banished...
Here is how I will split the difference. In a normal combat once a combatant falls unconscious the battle is essentially over unless some spell or effect is going to wake them back up. In the event of allies that stick around during the unconsciousness I will allow them to continue to fight until either the unconscious combatant is finished (thirsted as they say in batlle royale games) or the other combatant is also unconscious.
If the druid gets thirsted then combatant 2 wins. If combatant 2 falls unconscious due to the efforts of the animal companion then the battle will be a draw.
3) This one made me rethink the whole prebuffing thing since an Eidolon is essentially a prebuff. But it is also kind of crucial to the Summoner being a viable class, and summoning it in combat is not really viable in most builds. Here is where I landed (and it is a revision to what I said before): Eidolon Summoning and select pre-buffs can happen prebattle. Spells eligible to be cast prior to battle starting must have a duration of at least 1 day or be calculated as 1 hour/level. All other buff spells must be cast during initiative combat.
So if we can get buffs over 1 day, they are fine? Choice.
Splendid.
Just for planning forward, is any feat banned at all? Are Leadership/Vile Leadership ok?
So if we can get buffs over 1 day, they are fine? Choice.
If the spell has a written set duration that is 1 day or more or if it has a calculated duration based on hours per level or greater then it can be precast.
For example, you can have Contingency cast on you ahead of time (because the duration is 1 day/level) or have Goodberries pre-cast.
You could cast mage armor because it is hours per level or walk in with vampiric touch already running.
Splendid.
Just for planning forward, is any feat banned at all? Are Leadership/Vile Leadership ok?
Weird, I thought I had referenced this in build rules...but apparently not.
Leadership and the like are acceptable, however your cohort does not have a separate WBL. You will need to buy clothes for yourself and your buddy.
Also, to keep things from getting too ridiculous, your low level followers will be in the interdimensional stands cheering you on, but they won't be participating in the battle. (EG not close enough to have any mechanical effect on the field).
Ah, so could not, for example, buy a scroll at CL 144+ of a 10 min/level spell to have it up?
What is the in-game wait time between battles for determining spells and number-per-day abilities?
also, thinking about bringing in an oread urushiol (druid archetype) who ill poison you (with con damage in later levels) and then move in the his scythe with a x4 crit bonus
Well, with that prebuff going on, Some folks could counter my "you can't breathe" problem... or just take extend spell.
And now I have to worry about Mage armor being precast. And see invisibility, NOOOO!!!
Or permanancy. i was wondering if Wyvaran would be an OK race to play?
I'd actually like to play Nazzerous outside of an areana setting.... This VERY course dwarf could kill an elf by looking st them, and not because he's trying but because his Cha is literally rock bottom
Ah, so could not, for example, buy a scroll at CL 144+ of a 10 min/level spell to have it up?
Correct, spells with lower calculated durations (10 min per level and the like) are always going to be combat cast spells...even if you found a ludicrously high epic CL scroll of it and somehow managed to make the caster level check on it (DC 1+CL of the scroll).
What is the in-game wait time between battles for determining spells and number-per-day abilities?
also, thinking about bringing in an oread urushiol (druid archetype) who ill poison you (with con damage in later levels) and then move in the his scythe with a x4 crit bonus
Or permanancy. i was wondering if Wyvaran would be an OK race to play?
Each battle will occur after a magically enhanced long rest and appropriate leveling, gearing up, and any necessary crafting. As such in game time it will often be a few days to 1 or 2 weeks between battles. Your character will be at full potential each time it goes into the arena.
Wyvaran are a 17 RP race, so they fall within the RP threshold. If you decide on that instead of the oread have at it.
Edit to add: I have a few secret questions in my PM box...I won't be getting to those tonight...getting late and I am tired.
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This is SamuraiNitta’s submission. I’m super new to this style of pathfinder (tournament/solely combat/min maxesque) so I’m sure I’m going to get wiped throughout this entire tournament but I’ll definitely be having fun!
Don't mind the 3 Cha, He's an ugly MF but he packs a punch.
Ah, but that could come back to haunt you for cure wands, because use magic device is a charisma based check.
Excoman here, submitting my Oread Urushiol!
He'll use his poison to its extent, coating his scythe, and at later levels, farting expelling a cloud of poison gas that does con damage.
The profile picture actually helps with his backstory. (just imagine him with shiny skin and sapphires for eyes)
He decided to do something stupid (INT 6) and a spellcaster got mad and cursed him so images of wounds never go away when they are healed. In game mechanics everything is regular but when he is healed the image of the wound as it looked when it was healed remains on his body so everyone can see what wounds he has received.
Plus question: can i have a scythe? It is 18 gp and more than 10 % but it it is only 5 SP over 10%.
I believe you've misread that, unless you are classifying a scythe as a consumable:
"In addition, at no time can combat consumables make up more than 10% of your total wealth except for level 1 where you may have 1 scroll or potion costing no more than 50 gp. Also, no single item can make up more than 50% of your total wealth at any level."
Ah sorry, whoops.
Oh, man this whole thing is going to be hilarious. I don't even care if I end up winning (I probably won't. I have no idea how effective Boom! is going to end up being.)