Well, my consideration was if we withdraw and it can do that multiple times, it could simply move up to us and do it again.
But then, Huecuva's usually can't channel, because channel energy is based on the power of their faith, but by definition they are heretics who fell from the grace of their gods renouncing them, blaspheming, without a soul, and only a spark of intelligence - so lets not disregard the possibility it was something else that took place there.
Regardless, I admit it seems most likely it was a channel, and the creature probably a special kind of Huecuva that spent his time finding a new patron deity and regaining his abilities as well as a holy symbol of it's new patron - so technically a Huecuva with a class level of cleric added on - or more.
In which case I concur, it's very deadly and we are likely to die. But when I plotted the course, I was unaware we were opting to withdraw, mostly :)
And now you moved in towards me, before I had time to re-evaluate the situation, so I guess I'll stick with the original plan.
Well with only 2hp left the best course for me seemed to withdraw.
The conditions don't help my saves either.
Oh, withdrawing is definitely the smart choice in your case!
Heck, with wound threesholds you are in critical and at -3 on attacks, saves, and AC.
Thing is, if we all withdraw, he could move up to your face and Channel again, which does not provoke :(
That was among my original considerations for staying, as in, withdrawing of those hurt severely makes no sense if the creature can
give pursuit unhindered. Not that I feel particulary confident in the current situation.
I am not convinced what he did was Channel...damage is right, but it doesn't normally come with a fog cloud kind of effect.
No telling on this weird monster that has abilities that the base monster isn't supposed to have.
Aye - it probably got surprise on us, then won init - the fog cloud could be a different action. But it's not on the cleric spell list, so I expected it to be from a domain. Weather Domain, for example, offers both Obscuring Mist and Fog Cloud - and is part of Rovagugs Portfolio.
Either way it's a significantly pumped up Huecuva.
LOL, you guys almost figured out everything... almost.
Once this fight is done, I'll be happy to share what happened here if you like.
@Darrien: I am almost certain the thing did not just hop over the altar, but rather moved to block our exit. We just see the last known position on the map, I think. (added a smiley where I think he moved to, if not one further south to block the door fully)
We can try to move to the exit and keep fighting as we do so. Or you can hope it did not block us, in which case we need to move on the left side of the room.
You can find out with a single move action if he moved further. I'd need to spend two move actions(5 feet of second 20-feet-movement needed) to find he blocked our way.
I'd say you try and go first. If you find the way is clear(down-down-down-diagonally down), I follow behind you. If you find our way blocked with a single move action, I can try and move into a flank and (diagonally down, down) and we both have 2 attack actions, 3 of which we flank with.(one readied from you, both from me)?
@Healer stuff: Also awesome you'll provide that. But DO run the math depending on when you pick up Incredible Healer - you MAY get better results with Signature Skill(Heal).
Well with the demon feats there's something i would like to discuss with the GM before, just to be on the safe side.
Insidious Healing vs Signature Skill Heal:
On higher levels signature skill is probably better, but insidious healing kicks in a lot earlier and depending on how high your heal skill is, stays competible. Also depends on how the different boni are interpreted.
Does the heal roll replace everything or just the normal benefit from treating deadly wounds without the boni for being higher than the DC and the addition from Incredible Healer?
There's also 2 items helping with this:
Dianxue Gloves and Healers Satchel.
@Healer stuff: Also awesome you'll provide that. But DO run the math depending on when you pick up Incredible Healer - you MAY get better results with Signature Skill(Heal).
Well with the demon feats there's something i would like to discuss with the GM before, just to be on the safe side.
Insidious Healing vs Signature Skill Heal:
On higher levels signature skill is probably better, but insidious healing kicks in a lot earlier and depending on how high your heal skill is, stays competible. Also depends on how the different boni are interpreted.
Does the heal roll replace everything or just the normal benefit from treating deadly wounds without the boni for being higher than the DC and the addition from Incredible Healer?There's also 2 items helping with this:
Dianxue Gloves and Healers Satchel.
The way I see it (and I've seen other GMs doing the same) is that the Signature Skills replace the 'normal' effect of treat deadly wounds. The Incredible Healer feat creates then an 'either' effect... with both feats, you'd heal an amount equal to your Heal check or the amount unlocked with the Signature skill feat.
Guys, I'd like to update by the end of the day...giving you a couple more hours before doing so. Since some of you are in a pickle, I'd rather not have to bot you.
I wonder, are we sequence breaking there?
A creature with DR, a ton of HP, channel and potential surprise seems to be an awfully deadly encounter for Level 1.
Did we miss a large enough section before that we should be Level 2 already here?
One question on that end: Are you doing leveling by XP tracking or by AP recommendation(at certain points)?
@Incredible Healer vs. Signature Skill: As said, may depend on when you pick them up.
I think around Level 10 they are close.
(Where Skill Unlock means 10*4=40 HP healed + 2 Attribute Points. At Level 15 that jumps to 15*6=90 HP healed + 6 Attribute Points. At Level 20 a ridiculous 20*12=240 HP healed + 12 Attribute Points.)
Maybe it would be possible to pick up Incredible Healer, then "retrain" /upgrade it into Signature Skill(Heal) once that outperforms it? They seem thematically closely aligned.
That math sounds reasonable, let's see what GM Toothy says.
First we need to survive that long though and with my rolls currently it doesn't look too good.
Gotta say, conditions, the sanity thing, 15 point buy and low rolls are a deadly combination.
About the retraining of Incredible Healer into Signature Skill, I'm completely OK with it.
Regarding XP, I'm using the AP recommended points for leveling up.
You did not jumped through encounters... this bad boy is right where/when it should be. I'll elaborate.
About the difficulty of this encounter, there are a couple things to consider. A Huecuva alone is a CR 2 creature (600XP), which means in a normal group of 4 PCs, it nets us a budget of 150XP per PC. Since we have 6 PCs, the total budget becomes 900XP (6*150XP). With the levels I gave it, the Adjusted Huecuva jumped to a CR 3 creature (800XP), well within the budget.
Generally, it is easier to fight a single monster than multiple ones simply because of the action economy. IMHO, this rule is not that true on early levels, since a strong enemy could cause the death of a PC. This makes me think this encounter is a bit tougher than a regular CR 3 encounter (3.25 perhaps?), but remember we had a budget of 900xp and not 800xp.
What is perhaps causing you more trouble is actually more a tactical thing than anything else... In the end, despite the visibility issues and its ability to burst all of you at once (giving him some advantage in action economy), you decided to fight it on its 'home'. Also, from the 6 PCs, only 3 are actually fighting... but even with all these drawbacks, I'm mostly certain you'll be able to kill it this round. Oh, and please do not take this as criticism of your decisions, this was just said with a straight tactical eye.
@Jiao Feng: I believe you still have one action to take this turn (and last turn to be honest). With the UAE, you have three acts each round and similar to TWF, you can make 2 attacks with your flurry with a single act... so you moved, attacked twice and still have one act, which could be used to make yet another attack, this time with a -5 penalty.
When you reach level 11th, you will be able to make 3 attacks with single act (now more different than an Improved TWF, but hey, monks are special).
Right i forgot about those attacks. I can do them, would be surprised one hits though.
Yeah no luck. Since i seem to use up the bad dice rolls, there should be some good rolls in for someone else!
You are complementing me, Jiao. All good. With the DR of this thing, it's better you roll crap and I get crits, rather than we both hit and cause minimal damage :)
Well since i crit on *3, a confirmed crit from me might just end it^^
Wish I could have a Falcata :) But alas, Iomedae likes Longsword better -_-
That said, I thought the same with the 19 damage crit.
With your current luck, you would roll minimum damage and barely pierce the DR :)
*cheerleads* You can do it... I promise I'll be useful eventually...
*cheerleads* You can do it... I promise I'll be useful eventually...
I feel the same way. I am certainly not very useful right now.
*cheerleads* You can do it... I promise I'll be useful eventually...
Sheet Excel again!
I had enough of that today already^^Interesting low level feat for people with free move actions.
You can be sure i'll remind you of magic armor, heroism and fly, etc. soon enough :D
Literally, I would have been useless due to fog. Right now my best thing is my acid dart. :\
Yeah the fog situation is difficult.
It's just a nice feat i found. Planning to use that for myself in the future for certain characters^^
I'd say another issue with the encounter that makes it a lot more deadly than it appears is that by pure luck its a fight that basically nullifies the two "Tanky/frontliners" primary defenses at the moment. Our AC. Its a fight that basically made the main source of damage mitigation we had useless and even into a hindrance due to the -2 to hit rolls from a tower shield. The death spiraling from the wound system doesn't help either though considering a lucky roll on the creatures part puts most of us to wounded in a single turn (if not critical).
not having a healer is also showing up to be a large issue. Channel positive energy sounds wonderful atm. haha.
I was thinking about that, Darrien. I could have Edril "Find a god" and rather than going trickster / rogue, I could go cleric / theurge.
Yep...first time playing with wound system. Finding I am not a fan.
I don't mind it in this game as it adds higher stakes, but I am finding that I am glad that I played it here to know that I am not interested in implementing it in any of my games.
Aye...also the adding Class Levels system is skewed CR-wise.
Say you have a CR 2 monster.
2 creatures of the type? it's a CR4 encounter.
3 creatures? CR5.
Now, with class level equivalency, you could add 2 Barbarians Levels and plenty of stat boosts for an effective +4 to attack, damage, a rage power, rage(adding more attack and damage), 2 more HD(with ~11 HP) plus more HP from the Con increase for all the HD.
What CR is fighting 2 of these Barbarians? CR 5. Same as if you added another Vanilla CR 2 monster into the mix.
Of course, that single CR2 Monster could also add 3 Levels of Cleric and just be a CR4 encounter. Despite channeling 2d6 negative energy.
The balance problem is that low-CR creatures typically lack many special attacks and abilities, and have low stats. So a static stat boost affects them more, and the special abilities they gain have a larger impact.
As in, adding even 1 or 2 CR worth of Class Levels at lower levels has way more impact than adding 3 or 4 CR worth of Class Levels to higher CR creatures(Exceptions apply, and assuming no min-max class dipping). *shrug*
not complaining, just saying that overall, it definitely is a more challenging upgrade than 1 CR vs a low-level group and with wound threesholds active.
(as effectively, the channel energy doubles as a area debuff. Even if you make the save, there's a good chance one is hurt enough to get a penalty from the wound system).
Matheus could go in to aid with to-hit and AC but as he is only in street clothes I would assume he will be attacked and put down. He is down to his last healing spell which would be the only offensive option he directly has.
Also since he can't see in the fog he doesn't know how hurt people are.
I agree you should stay out of the temple for now.
About Wound Threshold: We can ditch it later if you wish, but I'd like for you to wait for a couple more levels before taking this decision. On lower levels, a single swing from a monster could put you from healthy to critical, thus giving you a huge -3 penalty. On higher levels, this is far less likely. Also, in a couple levels you'll notice the same death spiral working for you since you'll generally have more actions than the enemy, thus giving him more penalty then they'll give you.
I'm saying this with some property... this is not my first game using this system. I've already run 5+ games with it and the general consensus is that in the long run (when healing is far more abundant) that the system favors more you than the enemy.
About Encounter CR: I believe you are mistaken in your calculations. Using your exemple, two CR 2 monsters are indeed a CR 4 encounter, but three is more like a CR 5.25 (3x600XP versus 1600XP).
When you add class levels to a monster, first it should be accounted if it is a key class or not (a barbarian level to a minotaur is a key class, while a sorcerer level is not). Assuming the class is a key class, add 2 class levels to such CR 2 monster would make it a CR 4 monster (1200XP), which is equivalent to two regular CR 2 monsters. Adding two of these CR 4 monsters would make the encounter a CR 6 encounter (2x1200XP), not CR 5 (1600XP).
About impact on early levels, you are indeed correct, but the same applies to almost everything. Low levels are far more deadly, but hopefully you'll leave it soon enough!
Having said that, it was my intention to make these game a hard one. As you can see based on this encounter, it was a difficult one, but doable. and if Jiao Feng's rolls were not so abysmal, you'd probably have killed it a round sooner. However, if you all think this is getting too difficult, I can tone it down.
Dying PCs: If one of you die, we'll figure out what is the better course of action. I believe that if it is possible to bring it back, great, if not, roll another one. There will be no penalty to XP or levels, but the trouble to come up with another character/background will be there, specially after you get 'mythic', since such new PC will have to devise a reason for her to also be 'mythic'.
Dying PCs: If one of you die, we'll figure out what is the better course of action. I believe that if it is possible to bring...
I had the same trouble in adding a player after "Mythic", though fortunately he was an Elf and we just said valor in previous blah blah. Also they were only Tier 1, which is a lot easier to explain than Tier 4.
1 potential solution, promise not to kill us. :)
How would that be a solution? That would negate a lot of enjoyment. Part of the thrill is the possibility that you might die. Which is why I am playing a summoner, who will be far from the action.
So what you are saying is part of the thrill for you is that I might die. Nice. I see how it is.
:P
Hey I still might die. Fireballs are a thing, as are lightning bolts, etc. Some encounters even specifically say "they go after casters first". Plus I'm gonna make myself a cleric too? I'll be all the demons' targets.
About Encounter CR: I believe you are mistaken in your calculations. Using your exemple, two CR 2 monsters are indeed a CR 4 encounter, but three is more like a CR 5.25 (3x600XP versus 1600XP).
When you add class levels to a monster, first it should be accounted if it is a key class or not (a barbarian level to a minotaur is a key class, while a sorcerer level is not). Assuming the class is a key class, add 2 class levels to such CR 2 monster would make it a CR 4 monster (1200XP), which is equivalent to two regular CR 2 monsters. Adding two of these CR 4 monsters would make the encounter a CR 6 encounter (2x1200XP), not CR 5 (1600XP).
I was going by the CR-Equivalency.
Certainly just an approximation, but purely accounting for individual XP does not quite work in a "summing up" kind of way.Action economy is one thing, but they are supposedly weaker(thus less likely to succeed at what they try to do), more vulnerable to disabling, and area effect attacks/control spells.
Regarding the Class Levels, I was going by Classes marked with a “—” increase a creature’s CR by 1 for every 2 class levels added until the number of levels added are equal to (or exceed) the creature’s original CR, at which point they are treated as “key” levels (adding 1 to the creature’s CR for each level added). - just for sake of example not going with a key class to add more levels with less CR increase. It works the other way round too, if you have a melee monster, add 2 levels of a casting class and suddenly it gets a number of powerful self buffs.
*shrug* as said, not a complaint, I am just wary.
As you say yourself, low levels are deadly and swingy.
With the low point buy, the wounds system, and boosted encounters, I simply feel it may spiral out of control quickly. Hard and gritty is all good. But I feel having some slack with the encounters early on until we get to level 2 or 3 where random deaths from a single roll are already less likely would be good.
As you tactically analyzed, only a few of us were actually fighting - because it seemed lethal to do so. Finja was almost full and religious fervor made her stay and fight. Was that smart? Doubtful, but I figured we have nothing to gain by letting him chase after us and channel in the entrance where he has cover, we can't flank, and he could channel more and take a 5-foot step back again the round after, affecting everybody who stayed there and threatening to come out and channel some more while only being vulnerable to one melee person(who then provides soft cover).
I understand you did not play him antagonistically, trying for a TPK, but being aware of what a creature COULD do already alters behaviour. No matter if the creature then does do it - it's not even Meta as the characters were blasted and could only assume it could do that multiple times.
Guys, I'd like to move us on by the end of the day...
Matheus would be attempting to rouse a group after Horgus after pausing his round for healing.
Ok, since you want to look for Horgus, I need to know whose of you are staying behind. Anevia and Aravashnial will have to stay behind, since they move too slow (15 ft.). Darrien will also not be able to join since his armor reduces his speed and he is fatigued (despite not reducing his speed, he can't run). Matheus, Finja (speed reduced by armor) and Jiao Feng (fatigued) will be moving at the same speed as Horgus, while Sayid and Edril will be able to move faster than him.
Despite being in a tunnel, you have no way to know if there is any danger/monster/bifurcation ahead of you so speed is paramount!
Matheus is speed 30. Fleet of Foot and no armor. I think we'd make that the cut off speed.
Well, if there is significant danger or monster ahead, chances are Horgus finds out first.
More likely, the advance team may find Horgus(and themselves) in trouble.
That said, Jiao and Me should not be far behind once you find him.
Darrien, would you escort Aravashnial into the temple and start some basic maintenance with Anevia?
@Sayid: As I understood it, without running, you, Mattheus and Edril will not be able to catch up, only match his speed.
That means we have no chance to run into him before he is forced to stop by some kind of trouble.
Just saying...
Er, Matheus was going to follow as he is the party face (if self-effacing) and also good at aiding.
It was a series of CON rolls to chase?
Er, Matheus was going to follow as he is the party face (if self-effacing) and also good at aiding.
It was a series of CON rolls to chase?
Yes, it was a series of CON checks. We can easily retcon making Matheus arriving a round later. No problems and sorry for missing you were also following.
Very well, I believe you settled to clean the temple and perhaps rest here. As I mentioned, it will take you 8 hours-man to clean it, meaning that if all PCs help, you'll do it in less than 2 hours. Then to make some sort of 'consecration' as Finja mentioned, you'll need some prayers and a Knowledge (religion) check.
Since this is a special K. Knowledge use, I'll allow the others to use Aid Another even if you have no ranks on it.
@Edril: I took a look on your character sheet and I noticed a lot of information is still missing:
-Did you took an archetype? Which?
-Where/what is your arcane bond?
-Which school you chose as your specialized school? Where are your powers? Why you have three opposition schools?
A hurray for timely Nat-20's.
Finja is draining at least 2 of my other characters of good rolls, but at least they are not wasted :)
@Edril: I took a look on your character sheet and I noticed a lot of information is still missing:
-Did you took an archetype? Which?
-Where/what is your arcane bond?
-Which school you chose as your specialized school? Where are your powers? Why you have three opposition schools?
Sorry about that. A) No archetype. B) Arcane bond is a ring. C) I have specialized as a conjurer, I don't know where that information went. It was on there at one point, but must've got lost in the shuffle. I also don't know why I had 3 opposition schools. Very curious. You will note I did at least at one point mention my acid dart, so that at least bears witness to my knowledge of what I was doing. I've rolled Edril up in HeroLab according to what I've had down there, and put that in the profile as well.
It appears to be a consensus on resting this night here. Will you make any special arrangements, like providing long term care light last night?
Also, same watch pattern than the previous night?
Sayid offers to take whatever watch needs to be covered.
With the recovery of divine spells being at certain times of the day I am guessing we are going to be resting for almost a complete 24 hours so we each have plenty of time to watch and sleep in between. Most of the watches we can have 2/3 of the group awake.
I am of a similar opinion, but not quite the same - we'll want to make use of the Blessing, so almost 24 hours is not the best idea.
(there's no guarantee we run into trouble shortly after we break camp)
We started the day fully recovered previously - unless we had to wait on one of our divine casters with fixed times to depart, that means we have some wiggle room there.
Maybe ~16 hours of rest are enough? Still means we can rest. It also means those Fatigued can get a full 8 hours of rest, and e.g. still provide long-term-care for the next 8 hours.
Thats why, if possible from a divine spells perspective, I'd suggest a 16-hour rest. That gives us another 8 hours of being blessed to push onwards - basically a whole regular "travel day" worth of time.
Possibly - if needed for the 16-hour rest - we could even push on before we are all recovered spellwise, e.g. timing it so one of the divines has their meditation hour when the rest of us sit down for lunch break. If there's trouble before, we still got the other casters to cover us.
@GM: A technical question, but I guess our Elven Mage is unable to recover spells courtesy of not being adjusted to his blindness?