Can I slightly retcon Krish's position? He knows he is slower than the others, plus he will move slower due to having to maintain the psychic power. Can I have him start a little ways up the ramp to try and keep everyone in range? Or is the ramp less than 18m long?
Yes, I was debating with myself about the accuracy aspect of throwing as well.
I have two ideas to address this:
1) Pinpoint throwing is a hard test (-20) plus the range increment for grenades is only 2*STB (which will make far-throws even more inaccurate). Hit a mark somewhere within a specified area is modified by the area size, e.g. somewhere within a 3m square would be -10, somewhere within a 5m square will be +0. Or something like that.
2) Regardless of success/failure throwing always incurs a scatter roll for 6(?)-AGI-B m off the intended target. Failure obviously would increase scatter distance further. That way, the throw is handled with strength and the relative accuracy is somewhat bounded by the throwers agility.
Obviously, Eldar-Throwers are going to be a funny lot, but really, Space Elves should be able to throw an emp grenade through the view-slid of a tank right?
EDIT for Krish: I'd allow you to sustain psychic powers as part of a move action, so you can move full and sustain. Charging/Running is still a no though. This should suffice to keep the guys in range, yes?
Strength should just determine what a grenade's effective range is. Throwing it accurately should be a BS test though. In my completely inexperienced mind aiming a grenade should be similar to what a mortar team does and that's BS.
Maybe have Str have a major impact on the effective range of a grenade to simulate stronger folks being better throwers than weaker ones.
To simulate the different kind of training required for 'lobbing' ordnance rather than straight shooting you could use talents. Like the 'Lobbing' talent allows you to use your BS to aim lobbed weapons. Then an 'Agile Lobber' trait could allow a finesse character to use their Agi to determine how far they can throw a lobbed weapon rather then their Strength.
I'm assuming the gretchen's won't even notice Simmins delayed grenade based on all the other craziness happening!
I was about to say that it was all going so well, but I won't. Because we all know what happens then.
@Leni: Yeah, aiming rather than throwing is no big deal. Your Camo cloak is a good call but really would not have made much of a difference as the stealth check was mostly sound based, as you are out of sight for pretty much all of the way anyway.
Yeah as I wrote its more of a consistency thing. It would be weird for her not to have put it on before sneaking up.
The -30 to BS tests against her also SOUNDS pretty cool but really those orks will make or break it when they rush into melee with us.
And the intend of aiming was stated in the post about her peaking over the edge so that's not even a retcon just a reminder =3
Each square is 2m, right?
1.5, so 2 squares are 3m.
D&D scaling if that helps
I very much like the idea of being able to maintain a power as part of a half or full move action, I am very slow. Anyone running or charging is going to outpace my bubble with ease. My full move is 4m because of the cybernetic leg.
If me being further up the ramp before Thud starts his charge is problematic, can people who were included in the psychic power when I manifested be re-added if the bubble moves back over them?
The power only says that they lose it if they leave the range.
Yeah I pretty much expect it to be an aura centered around you.
Everyone in is in, everyone out is out.
And everyone is pretty slow unless running.
That is why I aim to combine many non-attack-actions with movement to allow for a bit more dynamic fights.
Ordering people around? Great. But you can do this while jogging over to that cover right?
Reloading your lasrifle? Meh, but necessary. Do that while jogging soldier!
Mounting bayonets? HarrHarr! You can do this while taking the first steps towards the enemy!
Hah. If this was a movie then the opening Salvo has to be shot from the perspective of the one Gretchen who sees it coming and is just following dumbly the grenades sailing around it.
Can Simmins adjust the cone of fire as a half action or will any shift require a full action Rebrace?
For the sake of balance, you will have to rebrace to switch your line of sight with a braced weapon. But, I'd allow a half-action rebrace if you change is not more than 45° in either direction.
@All: This will be a general rule.
Thanks. I think I have a half action left in Round 1 right? Or do I have a full action?
Half
Simmins used that to reaim left. Modified the map and took out the grenade overlay to boot. I think the overlay images could use brighter colours or thicker lines though! They are a bit hard to see against the map backdrop.
For clarity:
- if you stayed back, you have two rounds worth of movement up the ramp, which should bring you very close the the front, just a few steps behind Thud.
One surprise round and round first movement.
Ah. Wilco.
@Monia: You don't have line of sight yet, so I think you cannot attack them in round one. But you can keep these rolls for round 2 (aka now) if you want.
@Simmins: my idea for full auto is:
A)Shooting in a cone: targets roll d100 to check whether they are hit or not. I try to come up with reasonable modifiers depending on the situation. Basically it is similar to how grenades work. You may get lucky and hit many targets in one go but allies incure the same chance.
B) Shooting at one target. Just like with any other weapon.
@GM: For cone fire it should be good enough then to roll once for dodge and damage and those can apply to whatever target gets hit by the d100 right? Or will you roll sepeartely for each hit target?
Secondly is there a 'suppressive' effect if choosing to do cone fire?
Suppressive fire. Yes included.
@Rolls: I figured one roll per target. But the mention of an attack roll influencing the outcome is decent. I can see you roll once and add a positive/negative modifier to each percentile role depending on how well you did. Like a flat +-5/+-10 per DoS/DoF or something.
Factors I am currently look at are: distance, RoF, target evade chance, target size and terrain.
That attack roll would be modified by nothing but bracing though, no aiming, no scopes (unless you get a MIU-motion tracker) only your skill in walking the fire. Maybe tracer rounds could help.
I'd guess Krish's warp buff would apply though.
For cone fire I can roll at least one dodge/damage I think and then, if multiple targets get hit, you can roll the rest.
Does the DOS also determine how many bullets actually land on something as in regular auto fire?
@Warpery: yes it will.
@DoS: Only indirectly by increasing the odds per target (!) to get hit.
I am currently milling over chances for targets to get hit multiple times. Not yet sure how. Maybe reroll if the to-hit roll is 40+ over the target number with a reduced chance or something.
But just to give an impression.
That first salvo, I was looking at 70% to-hit PER TARGET.
Given, they were not allowed a Dodge, but at this distance and with flat area between you and them, cone shooting really shines combats to off the mill full auto, where you can only hit targets within what ... 3m of the original one?
If terrain comes into play than the bullets spanging off the loot heaps right behind the gretchens should increase the chance to get hit too I'd say :). Stuff like that would simulate the equivalent of shooting into a barrel.
For getting hit multiple times I think the simplest thing to do would be to roll to see if enemies get hit once. So for example with 70% all three Gretchen get a 30% chance to not get hit at all.
For the enemies unlucky enough to get hit once, roll the same percent chance again to see if they get hit again.
Keep going until all enemies in cones are missed or the number of hits equals the number of bullets in the full auto burst.
I think that works because the odds of getting dinged by multiple hits drops pretty rapidly. It's less than a 6% chance to be on the wrong side of a 70% roll 8 times for example. Plus they get a dodge chance on every hit.
Nah, I'd not do Dodge against those rolls.
Dodge skill measures into the to-hit or I'm gonna drown in dice ;-)
It's a simple dice per target.
For rerolls ... Mhhh
I could do that.
Will sleep over it and see what the math-hammer tells me about it tomorrow.
Gonna feed my python script some numbers...
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Always good to keep your Python well-fed.
oo-er Madam?
Always good to keep your Python well-fed.
Hehe, no, you really don't want it to go and search for door all on its own ... ;-)
You sound like a virus programmer. :P
You sound like a virus programmer. :P
Well, I am working in the IT-Security field, so ...
The knowledge is about the same but I sit on the other side of the pit so to speak :-)
Quick note: Charge action is already a single attack, so no additional +10 and no combining it with other types of attack.
Noted for the future. Not that it mattered. :)
For future references, if your python begins to act on it's own, and is capable of opening doors, apply for a job in the entertainment industry.
Alternatively, seek medical advice.
Haha, actually I typo-ed food rather than door there, but obviously auto-correction though door would be much more funny for that sentence ;-)
A quick comparison of the math between vanilla FA and cone-fire.
I did not have found the time to feed my python with the more delicate aspects (dodging, cone-multi-hits), so these are just some numbers that I can compute with a simple calculator and some semi-hard thinking, still they show a clear trend:
- Hit at-least-once:
.. FA: static chance, regardless of number of targets
.. Cone: Increases (sharply) with number of targets in the cone
- Score x hits, distributed between the targets:
.. FA: static chance, the higher x is the lower the chance, limited by the attackers skill+-modifiers / 10 and RoF
.. Cone: chance depends heavily on numbers of targets in the cone, low number of targets mean (very) low chance of scoring many hits, only limited by RoF
- Hit every target once or more:
.. FA: (low) static chance to score (enough) RoF, targets must be within 2m (!) of the previously hit target (or the original target, depends on how you read: "Extra hits can either be allocated to the original target or any other targets within two metres")
.. Cone: drops rather sharply the more targets are within the cone, targets must not stand close together
Numbers:
Assume 3 targets clumping together, no dodging for ease of calculation.
BS of attacker is 48, circumstance increase that to 68.
Calculated to-hit chance of cone shooting is 60%.
- Hit at least once (3 targets):
.. FA: 68%
.. Cone: 93,6% (!)
- Hit two times, three targets:
.. FA: (2 DoS) 58%
.. Cone: 43,2%
- Hit three times, five targets:
.. FA: (3 DoS) 48%
.. Cone: 34,56%
- Hit five times, ten targets:
.. FA: (5 DoS) 28%
.. Cone: ~20%
- Every (of 3) target at least once:
.. FA: (we need at least 3 DoS) 38%
.. Cone: 21,6%
Boy, long time no see you binomial-coefficient :-)
Pretty sure I just turned that gretchin into chunky salsa.
So for the math, vanilla FA does allow for Dodges right? So maybe against high agile targets cone fire is better as it can't be dodged?
@Choon: yeah, I think so too.
@Simmins: yeah, I did a number chuckle against an dark eldar Wych (Dodge 79) and was looking at a 39% for a short-range flat-terrain before DoS boni.
But anyway, once the number of possible targets grow OR targets are spread more than 2m apart, cone is a clear winner - and then there is the pinning aspect as well.
I am quite fond of the way it works actually. Still have to figure out rerolls and how that changes the numbers.
Who wants to feed my python?
Just change the food supply (values of the input parameters - the first couple of lines) and feed it to the python (press run) and see what happens.
@Strategy: Currently I am in favour of the following strategy: re-rolls half the chance per previous hit on the same target, so 80-40-20-10-5.
You can change that strategy easily for either "-10 per hit" or "no reduction". (read lines 10-20 for how to do that)
Both 'other' versions are significantly stronger than the current one.
Everyone is welcome to play around with that script a bit (no fear, I got a backup, so no hesitating, go and wreck it up as you like)
I didn't understand 90% of that post...
Bigger Input = Bigger Output!
I think though that your vision of cone fire is to replace suppressing fire and so any damage isn't the primary purpose of it right?
Actually, my big plan is do redo the fire modes quite thorough.
- Every mode has the same mod (namely +0, should make it easier and gets rid of that ridiculous notion that hitting a target once with automatic fire is harder than with a single shot)
- Single shot: adds your perception bonus to damage if you get DoS
- Burst mode (catch it all for multiple semi-automatic shots and short bursts of automatic fire) works like burst/FA did before: you shoot at one target and score multiple hits on that target if you get DoS
- cone shooting: mix of suppressive fire and FA
Aka:
- single: I want to headshot that tough Chaos Marine
- burst: I want to turn that one Ork into a Swiss cheese
- cone: I want to stop the tide of 'nids coming to eat my face!
Single = One hit massive damage
Burst = One target hit many times
Cone = Hit many things at least once.
Maybe give single shot a Pen boost as well? To get more damage and simulate aiming for weak spots in armor? Per bonus to Pen? Snipers would love that I think.
@Choon: do you want to? ^^ (I could try)
Basically: I put that linked script up that I use to test my idea of cone shooting. Depending on input (can be changed by changing the numbers in the very first lines of it) it calculate the odds of hitting X times and some other stuff as well, like average number of hits if one uses rerolls as Simmins proposed. And yeah, programmers (as any other experts) sound like aliens if they talk about their subject :-)
Pretty sure the idea that hitting a target once with auto fire was added because of balance concerns.
Remember back in Dark Heresy you actually got +10 for burst fire and +20 for full auto.
A lot more realistic but finding yourself on the wrong hand of anything will full auto setting would usually end with a LOT of dead characters.
And no matter how paranoid you play you'll end up on the wrong end of an ambush at SOME point.
Ask Twitch. He'll tell you a thing or two about that.
@Simmins: that's exactly the idea.
For single, I was thinking to give Per-to-Dmg once for 2 DoS and once again for 4+. That should produce quite some punch regardless of Pen.
Yes, I knew why they did dial back from earlier editions. But theyve gone too far imo.
That's why I grounded all modes on +0 and aim to get every mode it's very own use case.
If you want to try to explain your python to a n00b then be my guest.
As for fireing stuff, I don't really have an opinion. Just tell me what to do and I'll do it. I'm more interested is the story we're building than the nuts and bolts behind it. :)