Way of the Wicked (Inactive)

Game Master Aku Warashi

Of those, only Mott is married. And his wife is now the third most beautiful woman in town. Losing only for Rose and Seren.

Hey! I've got a 20 equivalent charisma when it comes to physical appearance too! You're just prejudiced against my rural woman disguise!

>_<

How Nahia would totally yell at you were she the player. :D

DM Aku wrote:

Of those, only Mott is married. And his wife is now the third most beautiful woman in town. Losing only for Rose and Seren.

Hey! I've got a 20 equivalent charisma when it comes to physical appearance too! You're just prejudiced against my rural woman disguise!

>_<

How Nahia would totally yell at you were she the player. :D

Yeah. I know. But what can I say: You are charming and charming. But still, you have 16 cha. Seren and Lady have 20.

And before you ask, for me, Cha is something you don't need to RP for yourself. So, as DM, I try to take that into consideration when saying anything.

It was the same thing with Sissy. She was all over herself with Nahia and Seren (16 and 20), but when it was Zerik turn (Cha 8), she was not so in a talkative mood, even though he is a handsome man. He just did not have that alluring personal charm.

Anyway, this is how I see things. You are o’course free to ask me to change things is you don’t like it. :)

But you know. Nahia is my pref! Just don’t spread. It’s our secret!

What stats do and do not represent is a very nuanced and philosophical question, and I'm not sure here is the best place to have that discussion. That said, this not being the place has never stopped me before, so below I walk through my beliefs, primarily talking about Strength and Charisma and if you want we can discuss the other stats in PM or elsewhere.

But still, you have 16 cha. Seren and Lady have 20.

Yes, but I have a racial ability that gives me a +2 to a cha skill specifically because the people that find me attractive find me oh so very attractive, which is that same as having a +4 bonus to cha for the purposes of being attractive. (That's what happens when you come from a race of being inherently designed to lead men to their demise) :D

...but when it was Zerik turn (Cha 8), she was not so in a talkative mood, even though he is a handsome man. He just did not have that alluring personal charm.

Actually, Zerik specifically described himself as ugly.

But you know. Nahia is my pref! Just don’t spread. It’s our secret!

Oh, yeah right, you've already proposed to Seren like two or three times!

Apologies for this being so... cobbled, but it is 2:30 AM and I should have been in bed a while ago. : )

Also, DM Aku, I hope the playfulness was obvious.

@Nahia.

To much for me right now! :D

I tried to read, but no success. I'll give it more time later. :)

Take your time. : )

@Lady Question:

No. You did not saw her. You only heard rumors.

So I've been thinking about the potential ambush... I think our best setup would be to actually have Seren, and Nahia appear as themselves, with Sourat, Fausto, mysty, and Lady (in totally different disguises of course) ambushing them along the route, i.e. "robbing the helpless damsels", with lots of screaming and yelling by Nahia and Seren obviously (plus some well imagined cuts and bruises).

The idea being that is unlikely that Mitran knights would consciously leave damsels in distress without trying to save them, and this way we can get the knights to come to us versus having to guess correctly where they are going; we just have to be in the general area.

Also if the ambush turns for the worst and let's say someone escapes, then we now have a reasonable relationship with the guards as both Seren and Nahia would recognize them as "saviors" and I mean they would have to thank their saviors somehow. Nahia also already has a cover for being out there with her herbalist alias, and Seren has been seen with Nahia since the beginning, so I wouldn't be out of place in full armor beside her as an escort. Plus a roving band of bandits isn't likely to lock down the fort, unlike say a bugbear that shouldn't be in this area. If anything it may actually draw more guards away from the tower.

Reason I think Seren and Nahia would be the best for the damsel roles (versus say including Lady, or Mysty) is both Seren and Nahia would prefer to not swing a sword in combat, so it may be easier to help in combat without giving away our allegiance. Though the perfect party setup can be discussed.

Fausto can cast alarm so we can setup the area perfectly this way (plus ensure that Nahia and Seren start screaming at an appropriate time), and let them walk into our trap versus being stuck working with finding a way on their route.

That works for me Seren, though it would also put the two of us out of commission for that fight, at least until we know we are winning. Though Nahia could still put people to sleep (all the talking a cooing she does during it is not required, just an RP fluff thing) without giving herself away.

The biggest issue with that plan (and with a lot of these in general) in knowing where they are going to go...

totally true, but at least the range on this plan is how far our voices can carry versus how lucky we are at guessing where the patrol is going to pass us.

That was my thoughts though, Nahia cast Sleep and things like that. Seren raises a skeleton (doesn't actually state it require any somatic, or vocal components), maybe a murderous command or two. point is we could still contribute effectively without weapons. Sourat may be the only one else that could, but his spell-casting should be sufficient to cover any subtle things we do, as the Mitrans are more likely to assume all the evil magic is coming from the very obviously casting bandit (plus Sourat and Fausto can heal the others in combat if necessary so our healing abilities shouldn't be necessary if shit really hits the fan).

I think the big issue is that the Mitrans will likely be mounted. If one of them runs for help, we're screwed. Also, lance charges hurt a lot. We need containment.

Entangle, Stone Call, Slow, Web, nets and tanglefoot bags spring to mind as ways to keep them from going anywhere.

What do you guys thing of bear traps? They're pretty cheap, extremely reliable at our level, and would definitely mess up some horses.

We would have to buy the bear traps in town, and then use them against the patrol. It could lead to a fairly obvious trail back to something fishy happening in Aldencross.

Plus bear traps, scream of forethought and planning, which is more likely to draw reinforcements, and a runner then a roving band of bandits. A bandit group setup to attack on known routes, with traps set, would more likely require tower intervention to clear out, and they would far more inclined to send word as soon as the first trap went off. A small roving band of thieves however, well that's exactly what the patrol is for, easy to clear out, and you don't get to be a captain of the Tower without some confidence in your ability to clear out minor skirmishes.

I agree with the need for containment, I think tanglefoot bags are the best bet, mostly because Nahia can make them herself (so at least a little bit less suspicious of a trail of purchases, as ingredients could be bought by various people or in various disguises so no direct trail back to an individual). Similar to bear traps everything else we would have to buy in town and then use... Though we are likely to be in disguise when purchased it could still raise suspicions about events in Aldencross that we may not want this early on, and you can be sure the death of a Captain will lead to some sort of investigation in 5-6 days when he is late from his patrol.

A lance charge should be easily handled by keeping Nahia and Seren between the horses and yourself when contact is made. "Hostage" taking should minimize risk of a charge as the knights shouldn't put the lives of "innocents" in jeopardy. Hell you may even be able to convince them to dismount to save us, with some begging and pleading from Nahia and Seren to listen to the vile vile bandits.

Part of the reason I suggested staging it as a robbery is that the knights are more likely to make rash decisions if they feel someone is in jeopardy, and hopefully more likely to coming running to us then back to the tower, but if we think there is a better idea I am all for it.

Pit traps might be better than bear traps at this point if we want to stay inconspicuous, assuming we have any decent way to dig (unseen servant, anyone? It's slow, but persistent).

Tanglefoot bags (or their more expensive but fiery cousins, tangleburn bags) would work too.

The real thing is, whatever we decide to do, we need to be able to do it soon.

Honestly, I think we should wait a little. The closer to the actual time of our final siege the ambush happens, the more disarray it will cause. If we give them three weeks to recover and investigate, they'll be ready and on edge.

If we do it a week or even a few days before and leave no survivors, they'll have search parties out while we're hitting the fort and that captain's men will have no leader (they won't have picked a new one yet).

The sooner we do the ambush, the more likely it will be to make things harder on us by the time the fort needs to fall.

I think the order of things should be (based on what we know so far)-

1) Mott and his Wife- Get them caught. Provoke some sort of confrontation out of the situation. If nothing else it will discredit two captains, damage the morale of their men and possibly set their troops against each other (we might be able to help with that).

2) Ambush- Shortly before. Take out one captain, leave no traces. It will take them a few days to even figure out there was actual foul play involved, and not just a tragic accident.

3) Poison the Well- or something like that. Make them sick around the same time as the ambush. This will delay their reaction time to the ambush. Dysentery is really nasty, easy to brew up, and hard to track to the source. It could be chalked up to a single bad batch of stew that everyone ate.

4) Show Time- We have a troop of actors showing up. All the bigwigs in town will be in the same place at the same time. We might be able to make like Inglorious Bastards. Lock them in and light them up. (Stubborn Nails are super cheap to make and work really well). I'm not sure exactly when the performance is supposed to be, but ideally it will happen right before our final assault.

Not bad ideas, but my concern with waiting on the patrol is that, (at least as far as I remember), we don't know when another one will happen. If they only do them once a month, then we've lost a great opportunity.

Also, I still think we should figure out some way to take out the dwarves before we make our grand assault.

And, again, the first thing we should do in the grand assault is take out the Rookery.

Not bad ideas, but my concern with waiting on the patrol is that, (at least as far as I remember), we don't know when another one will happen. If they only do them once a month, then we've lost a great opportunity.

Also, I still think we should figure out some way to take out the dwarves before we make our grand assault.

And, again, the first thing we should do in the grand assault is take out the Rookery.

Agreed. We really just have to get up there. One good AoE spell would probably kill them all.

As for the patrols, finding out their usual frequency would be a really good idea. My bet is that they do them weekly, or even daily. Monthly patrols would be all but useless.

The patrols last 5 days or so, so I doubt they do them daily. Maybe weekly.

Is the patrol made up of knights? I was under the impression their were 8nly foot solders in the tower.

Not known. We know that there are 100 'soldiers' and 4 'captains'. The captains seem to be knighted, as is the lord. Otherwise, who knows?

Well if we are going to ambush the patrol we probably need to leave in the afternoon, to allow us to set it up. They patrol is likely to move along the trade routes to other towns, so we do need to know which way they are going. Probably along the lake.

Difficulties
1/ a trade route may have other travelers near
2/ we don't know how strong the patrol is. If it's twenty troops it may be overly large fot us.
3/ we have to find an ambush site that allows an effective first attack, and is far enough away from town so no detection is possible, but close enough so we can return quickly
4/ we must have a good alibi to leave town, then return.

The ambush feels a bit heavy-handed when we still got other options to explore. If anything goes wrong with the ambush, our mission pretty much fails .. so there's that.

We could always get into contact with the dwarves using the 'omg, I think he's a dick too!' play. We lure one or more of them out with something as silly as 'person x is selling authentic dwarven beer!'. Person x is actually selling regular beer and so is outed by a dwarf when the time comes. Person y then joins the dwarves side in making accusations and hopefully ends up drinking the evening away with them, becoming acquainted with them and hopefully finding out what they're up to.

I'd really like to get a look at her. What can I do to arrange that?

Sure. You just need to discover where she lives and set up a meeting with her.

I know what you are planning already, but let me give you a fair warning.

If she is really seeing cap Edd, then he knows her intimately, and she is someone famous in town. Everyone gets a bonus to notice a disguise.

One more thing: You are an outsider, you can't disguise yourself as a human, and thus you can disguise yourself as her.

Maybe Nahia could do it.

She's never out in public?

I have Alter Self. I can disguise myself as a human just fine for about 5 minutes. Also, I have the Scion of Humanity trait. I can pass for human without even rolling. Looking human is pretty much my default.

With the hat of disguise's bonus to a disguise roll I'm pretty confident that I can make myself look like her.

Between Alter Self, Disguise Self, and my own bluff and disguise scores I could make myself look like just about anyone. There are actual Shapeshifters in the bestiary who aren't as good at this as I am.

OK, I agree that in the 'order' of things to do, the ambush is probably close to last or right before we actually get in the castle with the idea of fighting/killing inside while the bugbears try to breach from the outside.

However that leaves Fausto with finding something to do in the meantime.

I think it would be best if he tries to find a 'ranger' and figure out their routes, if any, for later attacks.

Any other suggestions?

I don't know how hunting works here - if you need rights, if certain areas are off-limits, but you could always inquire about that and then go hunt up north .. where Magister Tacitus is.

Also, I have the Scion of Humanity trait.

Oh, nice. The reason DM Aku was saying that is, without that particular trait, a Native (Outsider) can only use disguise self to look like other Outsiders, not like Humanoids. We had a fun discussion about this much earlier in the discussion thread.

I'd really like to get a look at her. What can I do to arrange that?

You'll need to find her, you may have already passed her on the street, but you don't know how she looks like.

Normally I do not assume actions for the players. You need to tell exactly what you want to do, and then have it done. Descriptions and RP here are the keys. You can look at how Seren and Nahia post. I give then plenty of freedom to describe things, as they want, just be careful to not try make an important npc do anything out of the ordinary.

Take 10 on disguise for a whoopin' 22 on the result.

You can find here more information about the skill: Disguise.

Can't take 10. Rolls are made in secret. I'm allowing, if you ask for help, someone do a perception check to see if the disguise was done nicely.

One other thing: Don't forget the limitations of the magic Disguise Self and Alter Self

How do we handle information gathering here? Do we tell where we want to go? Who to talk to?

Just describe what you did, you can 'create' nameless npcs to talk to, I'll catch up with almost anything you say. Don't need to concern about rolls, you can let me roll then in secret for you, or you can put up a good RP, describing how you are trying to get your information, in those cases, if you RP is good enough, I do not roll for your information. :D

I've set up an editable excel sheet, so you can write down all your planning. Later I'll put what you have already done in your first days here. Also I'll be doing a count down, so you know how much time you have left.

One other thing: Don't forget the limitations of the magic Disguise Self and Alter Self

I'm pretty familiar with them. Each gives a +10 to Disguise checks, and they stack (one is a polymorph effect, the other is an illusion).

That means when I'm using both I have a +32 to my disguise skill. Pretty good odds. :)

I understand where you are coming from raw, but in this case it still doesn't work.

Polymorph spells do not allow you to assume the guise of a specific individual, so while you could appear as a human woman, you could not appear as Kaitlyn. Disguise self would allow you to (assuming you know what she looks like), but it doesn't cover voices or speech patterns.

For that you need an acting skill, a good bluff, or something like Vocal Alteration.

+22 is still good, especially at this level, just remember that intimate companions get a +10 vs the disguise.

Alter Self doesn't allow you to assume the form of a specific individual, but it does grant a +10 bonus to Disguise skill checks, which can be used to imitate someone.

I think people are thinking I'm going to try something ridiculous. I'm really not. What I plan on doing is taking out orders for new luggage and to rent a carriage (and a few other small things) while pretending to be her. Specifically, pretending to be her if she was trying to be incognito while doing something she didn't want to be caught doing. I really doubt that the shop owners know her intimately, and any discrepancies in appearance or voice could be "her disguise"

Basically I'm going to pretend to be her and purposefully get seen (while pretending I'm trying not to), and let the rumor mill do the rest. After it's done I might even help the stories along if they don't catch like wildfire.

Mostly I was thinking about the voices (as Nahia said), and about touch. Because if someone touch you, he gets a will to 'disbelief' you disguise with the iron circlet.

In general, don't worry about those things.

To what you must. :D

Alter Self doesn't allow you to assume the form of a specific individual, but it does grant a +10 bonus to Disguise skill checks, which can be used to imitate someone.

I'm not trying to be difficult here, but no, it grants a bonus to disguise yourself to be one of those creatures but not to be that specific creature and that difference is important.

It would grant you a +10 to disguise yourself as a human female, but not as Kaitlyn Mott. Now, it would negate the penalties from disguising yourself as a different race or a different gender (since you no longer need to do that) but if you were already a human female, it would give you no bonus to looking like Kaitlyn Mott.

Now, let's say an orc male wants to look like Kaitlyn Mott. Alter self could make him look like a human female, which would make it very likely that if his disguise as Kaitlyn Mott fails, the observer would say "that human female is trying to look like Kaitlyn Mott, and failing" as opposed to "that orc male is trying to look like Kaitlyn Mott, and failing".

Again, the difference between a creature of that type and that specific creature is important in a case like this.

- - - - -

Now, related to the plan. I'm not sure what you want to accomplish by doing that, since we already got the information about her infidelity from rumors from the populous of the town. They already believe that she is having an affair with Captain Eddarly.

You're half right.

Alter Self could let an Orc Male look like a Human Female.

Then the orc could use the Disguise skill to make themselves look like a specific human female. The orc would get the +10 bonus to disguise from Alter Self because it would allow them to closely approximate the intended person's size and shape.

The disguise kit does the rest.

The spell essentially has two effects. One lets you change to a different humanoid for an attribute boost and maybe some special abilities. The other makes it easier to pretend to be someone you aren't.

Mostly I was thinking about the voices (as Nahia said), and about touch. Because if someone touch you, he gets a will to 'disbelief' you disguise with the iron circlet.

I really don't plan on letting someone touch my face. other than that, I think the only changes will be the color of my clothes. Would touching clothes potentially reveal an illusory color change?

You're half right.

Alter Self could let an Orc Male look like a Human Female.

Then the orc could use the Disguise skill to make themselves look like a specific human female. The orc would get the +10 bonus to disguise from Alter Self because it would allow them to closely approximate the intended person's size and shape.

The disguise kit does the rest.

The spell essentially has two effects. One lets you change to a different humanoid for an attribute boost and maybe some special abilities. The other makes it easier to pretend to be someone you aren't.

Not at all, I'm fully right. Look at the quoted sections:

Polymorph: a polymorph spell transforms your physical body to take on the shape of another creature. While these spells make you appear to be the creature, granting you a +10 bonus on Disguise skill checks, they do not grant you all of the abilities and powers of the creature.

Unless otherwise noted, polymorph spells cannot be used to change into specific individuals. Although many of the fine details can be controlled, your appearance is always that of a generic member of that creature's type.

Polymorph spells make you appear as a generic member of that creature type, so the +10 bonus only applies to attempts to appear as as creature of that type, not as the specific individual you want to imitate.

The specific statement about it only letting you appear as a generic member of that type specifically qualifies when the +10 bonus to disguise applies. It is not a generic +10 to all types of disguises.

You are misunderstanding.

The spell doesn't allow you to change into a specific person.

The skill does.

The spell grants a bonus to the skill. There are not any caveats to it. It doesn't matter what you are doing with the skill, you still get the bonus. You aren't magically identical to someone else. You're just close enough that the disguise check is easier.

You could use a mundane disguise kit to look like another person. Magic just helps.

I'm not misunderstanding, I'm saying that it doesn't work that way. The spell only provides the +10 bonus to the skill when attempting to look like the type of creature you are turning into but not specifically to look like a specific individual.

You are right that turning into the individuals race will make the disguise check easier, but it does that by negating the -2 penalty for trying to be a different race, and/or the -2 for being a different gender, and/or the -10 for being the wrong size category. Not by just giving you a flat out +10 to disguise.

If it was a flat +10 to disguise, they wouldn't need to mention it in the spell that you only look like a generic member of the type.

Think of it this way, if what you say is true and there are no caveats, and I was a male human that wanted to look like a male troll, I would have an easier time disguising myself if I first used alter self to change into a female elf than if I didn't use the magic at all. This makes no sense and is not consistent with the fluff or the wording of the spell/spell category.

if I was a human that wanted to look like a troll, I would have an easier time looking like a troll if I first used alter self to change into an elf than if I didn't use the magic at all.

What? I'm not following you.

If you were a human that wanted to look like a specific troll, you'd have an easier time of it if you used Alter Self to first make yourself into a generic troll of similar build and gender. Then you'd use the skill to fill in the details of the specific troll.

That's what it represents. It's making your starting point easier.

You said:

The spell grants a bonus to the skill. There are not any caveats to it. It doesn't matter what you are doing with the skill, you still get the bonus.

I'm trying to point out that that is patently absurd.

If there are no caveats and it is just a flat bonus to a skill that you always get, then I would have an easier time trying to look like someone of my same race by changing into something even more different than when I started instead of doing nothing at all. And that doesn't make sense.

It doesn't make sense that if I am a human male, that wants to disguise myself as a specific human male, that I can get a better bonus by changing into a dwarf female than by doing nothing at all.

What I'm trying to point out is that receiving a flat +10 bonus to the skill, no matter what you change into or your intentions, makes no sense and goes against the concept of the spell and the school in general.

Let me ask you another question: do you believe that if you are trying to use a polymorph spell to appear as a generic member of a race that you need to roll a disguise check? If so, do you get the +10 bonus to that check?

That would be absurd, I'll grant you that. Fortunately if you were to use Alter Self to make yourself look like a Dwarf Female who was trying to Disguise herself as a specific human male, you'd be eating a lot of other penalties and would likely be noticed.

However, if your goal was to make people think that some dwarven female, who definitely isn't you, was trying (and failing) to look like Sergeant Blimey, well then you really couldn't come up with a better way to do it.

Let me ask you another question: do you believe that if you are trying to use a polymorph spell to appear as a generic member of a race that you need to roll a disguise check?

No, of course not. You effectively are a member of that race. Why would you need a disguise check? Maybe a bluff check to imitate cultural mannerisms would be neccessary, but physically, you're one of them.

If so, do you get the +10 bonus to that check?

Yes. In the event that you needed to make a disguise check for some reason, and decided to employ Alter Self to do it, you would get the bonus because [i]that's what the spell does[i].

Again, the magic doesn't let you copy someone else's appearance, but, if you have a decent Disguise score, it can make it a whole lot easier.

Where are those listed penalties? According to the disguise skill, you take a -2 for the wrong race and a -2 for the wrong gender. Dwarves and humans are both medium so the size is the same. Any penalties for the familiarity of the viewer apply to both disguises equally.

That gives you a -4. If you get a no-restrictions generic +10 bonus to the disguise skill from using a polymorph spell, as you described, you are still at a +6 before ever touching a disguise kit.

So, as a human male, according to your definitions, I have a +6 advantage trying to look like a different human male by using a polymorph spell to appear as a dwarven female, than if I do nothing at all.

- - - - -

I am going to repeat this bit I quoted earlier:

While these spells make you appear to be the creature, granting you a +10 bonus on Disguise skill checks, they do not grant you all of the abilities and powers of the creature.

Continuing with my question, if you don't have to make a disguise check as a part of appearing to be that race, then what can I use that +10 bonus for?

I really don't plan on letting someone touch my face. other than that, I think the only changes will be the color of my clothes. Would touching clothes potentially reveal an illusory color change?

Yeah, any form of touching in general would allow the will test.

==//==

Anyway, that discussion about disguise and alter self was interesting instructing. It is good to talk about those things, pbp is a great place to learn about the rules in general and discuss then, just try not to take it very deeply.
In some cases, I think Nahia is right about her beliefs, and if you look at the RAW wording, Lady is right too.
Nahia sees it from a more RP perspective, which is very good, and Lady sees it from a logical perspective, which is also very good.
Anyway, polymorph school always was a pain to deal with it.

Just a thing I would like you to consider: The more you focus in what you can stack/build, more you forget about your actual history, and that is a bad thing. :(

Let’s roll and have fun!

Sorry for derailing the discussion thread. I'm actually really enjoying the discussion. I'd like to keep it going, but I'll stop if anyone feels it's disruptive. I think these sorts of discussions are usually pretty constructive.

Where are those listed penalties? According to the disguise skill, you take a -2 for the wrong race and a -2 for the wrong gender. Dwarves and humans are both medium so the size is the same. Any penalties for the familiarity of the viewer apply to both disguises equally.

That give you a -4. If you get a no-restrictions generic +10 bonus to the disguise skill from using a polymorph spell, as you described, you are still at a +6 before ever touching a disguise kit.

Yes, that's correct.

Keep in mind that Alter Self and Disguise Self are normally a one-shot sort of deal. They don't let you change into one thing, and then into another with the same spell. (hat's of disguise make things a little more complicated, but the general idea still stands).

At the time you cast the spell, you get a +10 bonus to a disguise check. If you wanted to disguise yourself as a dwarven female pretending to be a human male you get an overall bonus of +6 to that check.

Obviously in pretty much all cases, this wouldn't be a great idea. You could just make yourself look close to the thing you want to imitate and get the full +10 bonus to your attempt.

Continuing with my question, if you don't have to make a disguise check as a part of appearing to be that race, then what can I use that +10 bonus for?

It isn't necessary to make a disguise check to convince people you're a member of the race you've chosen to turn yourself into. You appear as a member of that race.

It's only necessary to make disguise checks if you're trying to be something other than "generic."

If you want specific tribal markings, or a birthmark that shows you are something special in that society, or want to look like a particular person, you need to make the check.

At the time you cast the spell, you get a +10 bonus to a disguise check.

So what you are saying is that you only get the +10 for what you are trying to look like when you initially cast the spell?

Just wanting to make sure I have that nuance correct before I argue further.

- - - - -

If you want specific tribal markings, or a birthmark that shows you are something special in that society, or want to look like a particular person, you need to make the check.

So you are saying you don't need to make a check to look like, say, an orc with no tribal markings, because that is a generic orc. But if you wanted to look like an orc with specific tribal marking you need to make a check, because the spell can't provide that for you.

If the spell can't provide it for you, then why do you get a +10 to the check? How does the spell make you look any closer to an orc with specific tribal markings (gaining a +10 bonus) than any orc that was born without the tribal markings (who has a natural +0)?

Lady Rose wrote:

At the time you cast the spell, you get a +10 bonus to a disguise check.

So what you are saying is that you only get the +10 for what you are trying to look like when you initially cast the spell?

Just wanting to make sure I have that nuance correct before I argue further.

Yes, that's correct.

So you are saying you don't need to make a check to look like, say, an orc with no tribal markings, because that is a generic orc. But if you wanted to look like an orc with specific tribal marking you need to make a check, because the spell can't provide that for you.

If the spell can't provide it for you, then why do you get a +10 to the check? How does the spell make you look any closer to an orc with specific tribal marking (gaining a +10 bonus) than any orc that was born without the tribal marking (who has a natural +0)?

Lets say that you wanted to disguise yourself as a human and sneak into a wedding. You want to look like a member of the bride's family.

The family happens to be Mwangi.

If you cast Alter Self and don't make a disguise check, you are going to look like a human, but not necessarily like a Mwangi. You definitely won't pass for a member of the family. You could probably pass for a random guest, but that's about it.

If you do make a disguise check as you cast the spell you are able to manipulate the magic to best suit your purpose, and get a +10 bonus to your "look like a mwangi" check.

You also get the bonus if you are making the check to look like "Joe, the Mwangi priest who is performing the service." It will just be harder to trick people because people at the wedding have a good chance of knowing Joe.

Ok, responding to the first part. I'm going to quote this again:

Unless otherwise noted, polymorph spells cannot be used to change into specific individuals. Although many of the fine details can be controlled, your appearance is always that of a generic member of that creature's type.

The spell specifically says that you can not use it to appear as a specific individual. Therefore you can not be trying to look like a specific individual when you cast the spell. Therefore, you can not get the +10 bonus from the spell to the check to look like a specific individual.

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I understand that there are specific examples that make sense given your interpretation. My interpretation also makes sense in your example (except for the very specific contention that we have).

However, I asked about a very specific example given the orc tribal marking where your interpretations seems to not make sense. However, I can (mostly) adapt that question again to your new example.

Why is it, if the spell can not make me look like a specific individual, or give me features that make me look like a specific individual, that I have a +10 modifier to imitate Joe the Mwangi priest, compared to Bob the native Mwangi villager of the same tribe, who has a +0 to imitate Joe?

If you'd like to answer my original question, feel free to do that too:
So you are saying you don't need to make a check to look like, say, an orc with no tribal markings, because that is a generic orc. But if you wanted to look like an orc with specific tribal marking you need to make a check, because the spell can't provide that for you.

If the spell can't provide it for you, then why do you get a +10 to the check? How does the spell make you look any closer to an orc with specific tribal markings (gaining a +10 bonus) than any orc that was born without the tribal markings (who has a natural +0)?

The spell makes you look closer to your targets appearance than you would be if you weren't using it.

Even if you were a Mwangi trying to disguise yourself as another Mwangi, it's still useful to cast the spell because it changes your shape.

The spell can't make you look like someone else, but it can make you look similar. Then the Disguise skill does the rest. You might need to use a little bit of a kit, or smear some dirt on yourself or something, but you'll be a whole lot closer than you would be without the magic. That's what the +10 represents.

As for your question about orc tribal markings, I'm guessing you're talking about tattoos or paint or something. No, Alter Self can't give you those (though Disguise Self could). You'd need to use a disguise kit while you cast the spell (or use disguise self too).

It doesn't matter though because that's not what I meant by Tribal Marking. I was talking about a physical characteristic common to members of that tribe. Something hereditary. Maybe they all have larger tusks than the average orc. They're the Bigtooth tribe. If you don't make a disguise check as part of the spellcasting then you have regular sized tusks. If you do make the check, you get a +10 bonus on giving yourself bigger tusks and looking like you could legitimately be a member of that tribe.

If you don't have much of a disguise skill, someone with sharp eyes might notice that you look funny. If you are good with disguises, there's a good chance no one will ever notice you aren't a Bigtooth.

Basically, if you don't make a check when you cast the spell, you look like an orc.

If you do make the check when you cast the spell, you have a better chance of looking like those orcs, or even that orc.

No argument to my first part?

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I can agree that the bonus applies to looking like a subset of a generic population. What I contest is the +10 bonus being applied to a check to look like a specific individual. (as already mentioned, the spell eliminating other penalties is fine)

It doesn't matter if they are tusks, or natural skin variations, or the number of nipples present. The question is more generic than that.

If it is supposed to make me look like a generic member of a race, and can not imitate features of a specific individual, then why do I get a +10 bonus compared to someone who is already a generic member of that same race?

It isn't a point of whether or not Bob can also use the spell, it is a question of what kind of details the spell can provide that merit me having a +10 bonus compared to someone who is already the same race and tribe? What changes are big enough that a +10 makes sense, but isn't so close to the individual that it is violating that restriction in the spell?

Disguise Self, which will make you look exactly how you want to look, even like a specific individual, provides a +10. You are saying that a spell, that specifically says it can not provide the specific details of an individual, gives the exact same bonus as a spell that specifically says that you can create those missing details?

You seem to have it pretty much right.

The spell can't make you look like a specific creature by itself, but it can help you in your own attempt to look like someone specific by providing you with a decent bonus.

That bonus comes from approximating the general features of the person you are attempting to copy. That makes it a whole lot easier when you use the Disguise skill because there's less to fake.

It would be hard for a tall, skinny human woman to look like her short, fat mother. It's easier with Alter Self to change your general form. It's even more easy with Disguise Self to change other characteristics (like skin tone, liver spots, wrinkles and scars) to match. Then all you really have to do is find some clothes your mother might wear, style your hair the way she does, and adopt her posture (which are all parts of the disguise skill)

It's just a regular skill check, with all the usual complications, only you've got a little magical help.

This is a good example of the flip side of what I'm talking about-

Divination magic that allows people to see through illusions (such as true seeing) does not penetrate a mundane disguise, but it can negate the magical component of a magically enhanced one.