That's no more of an advantage than another spellcaster would get though is they were dispelling, no?Sorry, I was misunderstood. With Option 1, I did not mean the Bending skills (as I agree, it would be OP).
Bender Level (effectively, caster level) would be what is taken into account.
Just as an example - Ardiente has +35 to Firebending. I completely agree it shouldn't be skill based if we're doing option 1.
So... Bender level vs Caster level +11....
that still gives the advantage to the bender...
all that has to be rolled is an 11 in a same level fight in order for the bender to nullify what the other person is doing... and the other person cant stop them....
without taking into account the Wis. or Int. Modifier
Yes. this is true... except that Dispel Magic is a spell in and of itself... whereas firebending can be done at a moments notice on any spell made of fire
If Ace finds out, Michael will have a partner in crime.
You would be, at the same time, the best and the worst partner. Best because of your abilities, worst because I would need to learn how touse them. >.>
Good points about the skill roll being overpowered. Obviously not gonna go that route now that you make very valid arguments about it being unfair.
Would it still be considered unfair/objectionable if it was done in a similar fashion to a caster level check as FCD just sugggested? If so, why? If it's a good reason then we can scrap that and look at other stuff.
Note- 90% of casters can cast spells that aren't of thier favorite element, wile benders are restricted to just theirs.
Benders aren't required to max out their ranks in bending either though.but spellcasters hardly ever do... not to mention the two classes get different number of skill points...
because after a certain point the spellcaster goes... "I take ten and know about all the spells that can possibly be cast by a non deity..."
whereas the bender goes... "if I put more points into bending... I can now make my lightning bolt hit 5 people as well as light my cigarette"
Rogue has so many ranks that I put full in spellcraft with next to no reason to. XD
All this is moo, though cause we definitely aren't using this system. :)
I have two specialized elements
At least Saffire isn't dead dead. :)
Made an Edit to last post in gameplay...
I have 146 HP i need restored...
Alright guys. Before looking at balance, we should decide something.
Should benders be /able/ to bend magical fire/water/air/etc. (Fire is the biggest one)? Does it make sense that they wouldn't be able to bend the magical stuff?
Balance comes after. We need to decide on a goal first.
Alright guys. Before looking at balance, we should decide something.
Should benders be /able/ to bend magical fire/water/air/etc. (Fire is the biggest one)? Does it make sense that they wouldn't be able to bend the magical stuff?
Balance comes after. We need to decide on a goal first.
I'm thinking that either it should be Much more difficult to manipulate magical fire than nonmagical or it shouldnt be allowed at all...
Yes. IMO.
Re: Magical 'Fire'
The Fire isn't magical-- it's a spell that 'instantly' creates a fire effect (by descriptor).
Therefore, if Bending /only/ manipulates naturally existing elements, then magically created /anything/ cannot be directly affected since it's a spell effect that the caster's generated, not merely a skill based system. Skill < Magic, nearly always.
Toss water onto a fire, perhaps a chance to 'dispel' or something, sure.
Does that make sense?
If I were to strip the Fire descriptor from my Fire Spells and put Force, or Negative Energy, your Bending shouldn't be able to affect my spell-- that it is Fire, is also secondary.
Can someone answer the questions I'd asked initially?
1) Homebrewed system?
2) Third party?
3) Can you affect non-natural elements? Or has it been established?
A reminder too-- in this game system, Fire is merely a descriptor for a variety of 'effects' (plasma, etc.)
It's not /just/ Fire. It's anything that Burns (not like Acid). And Acid is a variety of physically caustic effects. It's listed as Earth, because it's easier to do that.
So, give that consideration too here.
I'd vote: Magical /anything/ cannot be touched by a mere skill, without some sort of 'magic' to boost it to that level of effect. Hope that makes sense.
So in short, no.
At least Saffire isn't dead dead. :)
Why would you think that? He brought the body...I stated that several times...also didn't he say that they killed her familiar? It's possible that Saffire is at negative Con and dying, but definitely almost dead dead if not there...this was a horrifically brutal attack.
I'm for it being possible but much more difficult.
I'm probobly not going to post in gameplay till i get home, because I've totally lost track of where everyone is.
Re: Magical 'Fire'
The Fire isn't magical-- it's a spell that 'instantly' creates a fire effect (by descriptor).
Therefore, if Bending /only/ manipulates naturally existing elements, then magically created /anything/ cannot be directly affected since it's a spell effect that the caster's generated, not merely a skill based system. Skill < Magic, nearly always.
Toss water onto a fire, perhaps a chance to 'dispel' or something, sure.
Does that make sense?
If I were to strip the Fire descriptor from my Fire Spells and put Force, or Negative Energy, your Bending shouldn't be able to affect my spell-- that it is Fire, is also secondary.
Can someone answer the questions I'd asked initially?
1) Homebrewed system?
2) Third party?
3) Can you affect non-natural elements? Or has it been established?A reminder too-- in this game system, Fire is merely a descriptor for a variety of 'effects' (plasma, etc.)
It's not /just/ Fire. It's anything that Burns (not like Acid). And Acid is a variety of physically caustic effects. It's listed as Earth, because it's easier to do that.
So, give that consideration too here.
I'd vote: Magical /anything/ cannot be touched by a mere skill, without some sort of 'magic' to boost it to that level of effect. Hope that makes sense.
So in short, no.
Because using ki to manipulate fire isn't magic?
I think it's Su.
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At least Saffire isn't dead dead. :)Why would you think that? He brought the body...I stated that several times...also didn't he say that they killed her familiar? It's possible that Saffire is at negative Con and dying, but definitely almost dead dead if not there...this was a horrifically brutal attack.
I would take a look at the little gut's stats. He could get hit by disintegrate and come back from it.
@Icehawk:
Okay, if using a mere Skill allows for Spell Like Effects, I wanna be a Magic Bender and make up spells left and right, without having spell slots, etc.
Then, we'll be even. :)
See my point?
I forgot Sara had the healing hex. Would this be a good time to start being lv.5?
You get a d8!
You get a d8!
You get a d8!
~Doc Sara Witch Hex Surgeon. "Everyone gets a d8!"
Damiani - sorry, trying to post and run around at the same time.
1 - It's a homebrew system, I can provide the link.
2 - Magic /does not/ exist in the setting it was designed for. When two benders are trying to control the same thing, it's an opposed skill check - which I don't think is a workable option, hence my option 1.
I will agree that Bending would be difficult to use reactively to spells (so, you can't bend a Fireball for example), but effects that create continuous flame/water/earth/air, I believe those should be able to be manipulated, though at a difficult DC.
@Others:
Can Benders generate elements (of their type) from scratch? Or do they manipulate existing conditions?
If they cannot 'magically' create from nothing, and there's never been a 'return an element' to nothing, then at best, they can disperse an element if it's naturally existing or someone with Bending Fu is manipulating it.
How's that resolved?
I still don't see how a Skill can trump (potentially) Magic. Use Magic Device, even that? Has serious limitations (though at one point, it's moot-- especially if your stats are insane).
No, not really-
You can't keep going with that skill without the class, Without extreme limitations.
You can't take the skill without the class.
And the strongest effect you can have on magic fire is quash, witch is basically counter spell.
@Others:
Can Benders generate elements (of their type) from scratch? Or do they manipulate existing conditions?
If they cannot 'magically' create from nothing, and there's never been a 'return an element' to nothing, then at best, they can disperse an element if it's naturally existing or someone with Bending Fu is manipulating it.
How's that resolved?
I still don't see how a Skill can trump (potentially) Magic. Use Magic Device, even that? Has serious limitations (though at one point, it's moot-- especially if your stats are insane).
Also, fire-benders create something from nothing all the time. They can spontaneously generate fire.
It's dc 5.
Damiani - sorry, trying to post and run around at the same time.
1 - It's a homebrew system, I can provide the link.
2 - Magic /does not/ exist in the setting it was designed for. When two benders are trying to control the same thing, it's an opposed skill check - which I don't think is a workable option, hence my option 1.I will agree that Bending would be difficult to use reactively to spells (so, you can't bend a Fireball for example), but effects that create continuous flame/water/earth/air, I believe those should be able to be manipulated, though at a difficult DC.
Fair enough.
Then let's do the following-- Congratulations, Benders, you are all now 'casters'.
Throw on limits on Bending per day (like spell slots), and all that joy, and we'll have similar powers due to class levels.
Because, effectively-- all these Benders, in my understanding, have infinite 'casting' ability, defined by their creative minds and the thematic styling of a TV show. :)
Impose a healthy limit on 'undoing the intention of a spell caster's spell' and then we can start talking. As it stands now though, I do not believe a Martial Artist (that's what you folks are, ultimately) can affect spells, or magic.
Do the Monks of Pathfinder in any way have similar abilities to Benders? Just the Elemental Fist thing, right? But even that eats up a limit per day pool (Ki, or Stunning Fist counts).
I really don't believe the bender thing is equivalent to any other class, due to the things I point out:
1) Skill based, apparently, only?
2) You can do 'numerous' things, merely defined by the player and a skill roll.
3) Other than say, Wishes, or Shadow conjuration effects, no 'magical spell' mimics this I'm familiar with.
Can a caster Dispel Magic your Bending? Does it stop your Bending effect?
Bleh. :) I do love the thinking involved, but, this is the reality of taking home brewed into a thoroughly tested and played system (per say) that's closed-- not a huge hurdle. Just need to figure what's best.
Firebenders do /not/ spontaneously generate fire.
They manipulate energy in themselves/the air to make it. (This is also how they make lightning, they separate the positive energy from the negative)
"Power in Firebending comes from the Breath. The breath becomes energy in the body and powers your firebending." -Paraphrased from the show.
Fire benders can .make their own. Water benders can rip it from the air. Air and earth benders have a mostly never ending supply of it.
Fire benders are the only ones that can make it spontaneously.
(Cause fire is much less abundant.)
@Others:
Can Benders generate elements (of their type) from scratch? Or do they manipulate existing conditions?
If they cannot 'magically' create from nothing, and there's never been a 'return an element' to nothing, then at best, they can disperse an element if it's naturally existing or someone with Bending Fu is manipulating it.
How's that resolved?
I still don't see how a Skill can trump (potentially) Magic. Use Magic Device, even that? Has serious limitations (though at one point, it's moot-- especially if your stats are insane).
Also, fire-benders create something from nothing all the time. They can spontaneously generate fire.
It's dc 5.
Sounds like the Spark Cantrip. Or are we talking open flame, able to do torch like effects?
Firebenders do /not/ spontaneously generate fire.
They manipulate energy in themselves/the air to make it. (This is also how they make lightning, they separate the positive energy from the negative)
"Power in Firebending comes from the Breath. The breath becomes energy in the body and powers your firebending." -Paraphrased from the show.
How many times a day? :)
How many times a day? :)Firebenders do /not/ spontaneously generate fire.
They manipulate energy in themselves/the air to make it. (This is also how they make lightning, they separate the positive energy from the negative)
"Power in Firebending comes from the Breath. The breath becomes energy in the body and powers your firebending." -Paraphrased from the show.
At will-
5d6 (maybe 4d6. Can't remember perfectly.) damage fire by 16th level that can be used in a full attack action at a range.With a +10 to the dc, those hit must make saves vs catching on fire.
I would take a look at the little guy's stats. He could get hit by disintegrate and come back from it.At least Saffire isn't dead dead. :)Why would you think that? He brought the body...I stated that several times...also didn't he say that they killed her familiar? It's possible that Saffire is at negative Con and dying, but definitely almost dead dead if not there...this was a horrifically brutal attack.
Ah. I see which ability you mean now. Yeah, negative 10 hp and stable then...very, very badly hurt.
Watch the agni kai duel between Azula and Zuko in the episode Sozen's Comet. They generate their own fire from nothing, in effect.
Obviously, though, that makes for an OP game mechanic...
Benders can do unlimited per day, however.
I would like to note that even the most powerful attacking spell a firebender has (Cold-Blooded Fire) is a single target spell that is effectively disintegrate. That is a DC 45 skill check.
Anything else - Ardiente's flamethrower, for example deals like 10d6 max damage.
And they /are/ casters, since all Ki abilities are Su, meaning things like antimagic field prevent bending.
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Ah. I see which ability you mean now. Yeah, negative 10 hp and stable then...very, very badly hurt.I would take a look at the little guy's stats. He could get hit by disintegrate and come back from it.At least Saffire isn't dead dead. :)Why would you think that? He brought the body...I stated that several times...also didn't he say that they killed her familiar? It's possible that Saffire is at negative Con and dying, but definitely almost dead dead if not there...this was a horrifically brutal attack.
He's not Michael's best work for nothing, you know. ^-^
Watch the agni kai duel between Azula and Zuko in the episode Sozen's Comet. They generate their own fire from nothing, in effect.
Obviously, though, that makes for an OP game mechanic...
Not really.
See, overall, lets say you hit the opponent with all of your full attack at level 16, using bending's equivalent of two weapon fighting.Total damage 20d6.
Each 5d6 with resistance to fire, with an average damage of 15.
Average damage if everything hits, and no fire resist-
60.
Think about what a good fighter or barbarian can do with a full attack.
Also-
Compare this to a caster who can-
Finger of death- 160 damage.
Disintigrate- 32d6
Scorching ray 3*4d6 all at full bab as a second level spell...
Ect...
I've got to go for a while.
I'm not a druid yet. Gonna wait til I have an animal. Changed my mind. No T-rex. Gonna have midori show me where to get a panda. ^_^
I would agree that bending can affect magically created elements.
It is ki powered, and is therefore in the same ballpark as a spell. If you don't want the firebender to modify your wall of fire, don't use the wall of fire.
Tami and Rena? That is being made a memory crystal for my private collection. :) So Tami how about we invite Rena to our room later. ;p
Watch the agni kai duel between Azula and Zuko in the episode Sozen's Comet. They generate their own fire from nothing, in effect.
Obviously, though, that makes for an OP game mechanic...
Not really.
See, overall, lets say you hit the opponent with all of your full attack at level 16, using bending's equivalent of two weapon fighting.
Total damage 20d6.
Each 5d6 with resistance to fire, with an average damage of 15.
Average damage if everything hits, and no fire resist-
60.Think about what a good fighter or barbarian can do with a full attack.
Also-
Compare this to a caster who can-
Finger of death- 160 damage.
Disintigrate- 32d6
Scorching ray 3*4d6 all at full bab as a second level spell...
Ect...
That's not what I'm saying. I was saying just being able to generate fire with no limit makes for a poor game mechanic.
The bender I'm using is limited by his Ki, so mechanicly he has a limit.
M'kay, so they aren't comparable systems.
Sure, they use Ki and are thus, 'magical' (or Soul Stuff).
Why aren't they using Ki per the Monk rules then? And each 'effort' of Bending requires a Ki point? That'd make sense, no?
Then again, the system is a thematical representation of a TV show. Blending (or Bending as it were) that to an existing rigid system, is harsh.
So, going back to the prior point ...
I really don't think they should be able to manipulate a magical spell, with the fire descriptor (cause that's ultimately what this is), with a mere skill check.
Plus, in this particular case, it's a Concentration Spell-- how do you compete with that (if at all)?
So-- back to the original question. Magic affected by Bending, yes or no? Could you have a Force Bender? (I'll play one in a heart beat, if so!) Why not?
This class reminds me of that Warlock Eldritch blasting class. Endless zappies without many limitations. Everyone's read about how horribly broken that was, right?
Anyhow... do we have a verdict? I'm still against this for more reasons than just skill versus magic. It's not 'natural' fire, it's also Anahita's domain ability, etc. etc.
Still, if Lynora wants to rule they can-- that's fine. Cause and effect. Life will go on.
Happy to further discuss.
*feels nervous for having an unlimited use of no check need warlock powers*
<_<
>_>
Bender CL = Caster CL -3.
16 level Bender has an effective caster level of 13.
This matches up with other hybrid casters like Rangers and Paladins.
Good?
EDIT: We can further add penatlies for is the magic conjuring regualr fire? +0 DC. Does it create magical fire? +2 DC. Are there other elements to the spell (ie Flamestrike is holy and fire)? +5 DC. These aren't cumulative.
Ok so we're trying to decide If a bender can control a magical version of they're element? And some bending abilities have times per day. Healing waters is an example. A number of times per day I can just it with out incuring the cumulative penalty of -4.
Making bending have times per day wouldn't be a greaitway of balancing it. As fireclaw pointed out the damage output of benders is rather low so taking there main ability basically is shuting them down.
I chose waterbender knowing that he had over little def against magic. Magic of his element maybe a little but as for conter spelling a spell with bending. I guess If that is a real issue then treat it as a disspell atept using bender lvl ascaster lvl now feats can had to a bender caster lvl. Since spell for disspelling give a bonus to disspell attempts and casters have feats that can make it easier.
Disspelling is something I don't looks at much. I could be over wrong.
*feels nervous for having an unlimited use of no check need warlock powers*
<_<
>_>
Per my reading of the Warlock on the Pathfinder d20 site, you are limited by the same constraints of the Wizard Arcane School abilities any Wizard would have, for said abilities. You simply swap out Charisma bonus for your additional values, versus Intelligence like a Wizard would.
Then again, it is a third party thing-- far be it for me to join others in saying a /lot/ of those are hellah broken. :)
Not really.
See, overall, lets say you hit the opponent with all of your full attack at level 16, using bending's equivalent of two weapon fighting.
Total damage 20d6.
Each 5d6 with resistance to fire, with an average damage of 15.
Average damage if everything hits, and no fire resist-
60.Think about what a good fighter or barbarian can do with a full attack.
Also-
Compare this to a caster who can-
Finger of death- 160 damage.
Disintigrate- 32d6
Scorching ray 3*4d6 all at full bab as a second level spell...
Ect...
Okay... With this I have to jump in... Its not the same... A fighter or barbarian can do 60 points of damage average in one round... Yes I agree, but not to the rest...
If a firebender can pretty much at will counter spell any spell with fire descriptor that makes them more powerful, not to mention that the firebender can do good both at range and up close... which fighters have to specialize in one or the other
But the wizards spells are where you went really wrong... Wizards suffer from deprecating curve of usefulness...
at the begining of the day they are more powerful than a firebender, sure, but with every spell the wizard becomes weaker where the firebender does his chi dance all day long....
Not true. He has a finite amount of Ki to work with. For a bender they are more akin to spell points than Ki for a monk. Once they are gone he has to rest.
A bender is also far more dependant on his Ki points than a Monk is dependant on Ki. He can not bend without it.
And we're talking about one element here. This would be no different than a fire mage having the ability of counterspelling a universal mage's fire spells.
Okay, arguments closed. I've listened to all the differing points of view and I'm going to make my ruling. Give me a minute here to get it typed up. :)
So I just had a strange idea on how to heal people a whole bunch. 1d6 a round for 43 rounds for every one within 30ft, though it drains the resource completely for the day.
EDIT: Wrong alias.
:washes down the wall of what had just posted before seeing Lynora's post:
It is a little broken in a high level no progression campaign. I do get it unlimited times though. The major limit with Warlocks is that you get so few things you can do. Most times you get absolutely nothing in a new level.
I'm level 16 and a sorcerer of this level has 37 individuals things he can cast(+bloodline)
I have
Element gun
Teleport
Float
Invis
Bigger teleport
Scary aura
Wall
Ice field
If a problem doesn't fall under being able to do something with those, I'm useless.
I have less than a third of the range of a sorcerer's spells.
More balanced than you think. ;)