Also, Ulrich, I think Bolter Mastery is only for Bolt Weapons, does not apply to Plasma weapons, but I could be wrong. (Is it all Astartes Weapons?) It also only works in solo mode? I can't recall, I'll look it up later for clarity.
The Tactical Marine gains a +10 bonus to all Ballistic Skill Tests and +2 to Damage when firing a Bolt weapon. This ability only functions in Solo Mode.
Initiating a grapple is done either through a standard attack or charge attack.
He used feint, 1/2, to try to avoid the enemy dodging and standard attack to try to grapple, 1/2. Missed the grapple and went for a stabbing attack with the other servoarm with the reaction.
Normally the feint would be an opposed WS test but since it would be impossible for him to have more difficult than me it doesn't matter. Had I hit with thegrapple then I would not be able to use a reaction.
The books consider the servoarms to be additional limbs so I don't think there is any difference between using them or my Fists in melee(save the murder). That does leave me a question though. Since the book considers them to be additional limbs and I have 5 Mechadendrites(2tools/3servo) would that fall under the multiple arms trait? Not the +10 T but the bonus to S and climb tests and the Multiple attack.
I believe some mechandrites say they give bonus to climb and there is a S number for things like servo, but even a bonus if they are excellent quality. You don't get the multiple arm trait from them inherently, bc some are weak like the optical mechandrites or medic mechandrites. Depending on which you use you'll get the bonus stated in the books for that mechandrite, but no additional or greater bonus. The explorator in RT has an alternative rank, forgot name, but it has the ability to have mutations like multiple arms bc they are organic, but you can't purchase flesh is weak talents. For me that makes it clear that normal mechandrites aren't multiple arms like the tyranid or mutants have.
Snowman anything I can remember with that roll a few posts before? Think it went out of scope before the resolution.
Snowman anything I can remember with that roll a few posts before? Think it went out of scope before the resolution.
I don’t know what happened to my post, I updated with some details for you, I'll post again, you did recall some things.
Snowman anything I can remember with that roll a few posts before? Think it went out of scope before the resolution.I don’t know what happened to my post, I updated with some details for you, I'll post again, you did recall some things.
No problem, paizo is a post-eating monster from time-to-time :-)
Was the voice clearly organic or mechanical? Familiar? The time save was a good call but we need a little bit of detail to know how to react outside of "Somebody gonna die"
It was a text transmission, no voice. Sorry if I didn't make that clear.
Didn't mean for that to take a week, not sure if people were just not able to post or didn't know what to post, so moving things forward. Feel free to roleplay anything prior to my post in your update.
For your info GM, it was a mix of unsure what to post and shortage in time because of an exam and lot of work.
Sorry Pyros if that disturbed your sneaky plans, it felt like we all were slowing down so I took the initiative and posted ahead. Didn't think you wanted to do some stealth tricks with us seemingly simply walking in that room in Power Armor and even a Terminator and a cyborg-wolf in our ranks.
No worries Deleos, I just thought it made for a better narrative if Pyros was disapproving. Like you said, we were never likely to be stealthy.
No worries, I know school just started back for some people's schedules might of changed after summer etc, hope we didn't loose anyone.
@Varryl, gonna bot you some until you are able to return.
Would someone remind me of the rules for fighting hordes? I'm at work so don't have my books to hand.
Every hit that dies inflict > damage after soak (so about any hit) does one magnitude dmg. Explosive weapons does one additional damage per hit (or altogether?), same goes for energy melee weapons. Additional DoS in melee add additional magnitude damage. Weapons with blast(x) does inflict a magnitude damage of x. Flamers calculate their damage depending on their range - something like "a third of the range in magnitude damage" but haven't looked it up yet.
Thanks Deleos.
Do you deal extra damage with full-auto weapons? What are the to-hit bonuses when attacking?
No extra damage with full-auto but the possibility for a LOT of hits.
Explosive Weapons do one additional hit not one more per hit.
Magnitude 30 is @ +30 to hit due to its size.
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Gonna give you all a little thing you can add to your profiles for when we deal with hordes. I suggest adding it to your alias so you can reference it anywhere, just cut and paste! I'll detail your abilites and the enemies, so its not a surprise.
Magnitude is the size of the horde (20, 30, 40, etc)
Size/Hit bonus:
30 Magnitude +30
60 Magnitude +40
90 Magnitude +50
120+ Magnitude +60
All hits are directed at the Horde itself and may not be applied to a specific enemy or commander in the battle.
Damaging a Horde:
Any hit that causes damage (after TB and AP) reduces the magnitude by 1.
Weapons that inflict Exploseive Damage (X) deal 1 additional hit.
Attacks are not to any location, all of the horde has a single AP value. Hordes may be pinned and make WP tests etc for dealing with things like that.
MELEE:
After the first hit, one additional hit for each 2DOS. Weapons with power field inflict one additional hit with straight success, and an additional 1 hit for each 2DOS.***The book says 2DOS for a hit vs Horde, but I'm ruling straight success is 1, each 2DOS is an additional hit. Power fields grant 1 extra hit for the initial success, but not extra hits for 2DOS. (Meaning you don't get 2 hits for each 2DOS..sorry)
BLAST WEAPONS:
Hits a number of times equal to Blast (X).
FLAME WEAPONS:
These weapons hit a number of times = to 1/4th the range of the Flame weapon rounded up +1d5. (30m range= 8 hits +1d5)
PSY Powers:
Hits = PR of the ability. Area abilities add +1d10 hits.
BREAKING a HORDE:
If a horde is reduced by 25% in one turn, it must pass a WP test or flee.
If the horde is less than 50% of starting value, then -10 WP tests. Less than 25% of starting value means it automatically breaks.
**Hordes with Fearless talent do not have to test for breaking, all must be eliminated. (You won't know until it happens, because I won't tell you if they are fearless or not.)
HORDES ATTACKING:
MELEE:
Hordes attack anyone AND everyone close enough. They may use talents like swift attack, lightning attack, etc. Hordes get no "gang up" bonus. ****Attacks may not be dodged or parried unless stated.*****
RANGED:
Hordes may make ranged attacks equal to its first number.( Magnitude 30 gets 3 ranged attacks) These attacks can be full/semi and inflict additional hits as normal against the squad. All modifiers applay, but no aiming is allowed. No ammo count or jamming. ****Attacks may not be dodged or parried unless stated.*****
DAMAGE from HORDES:
Any attack that hits has the damage increased by d10s = Magnitude divided by 10, max +2d10. Example, Magnitude 25 horde, will have +2d10 dmg inflicted.
That's it. I suggest cut/paste that with some spoilers to your profile so you can view anytime and easily determine your damage and potential risk/damage of enemy hordes.
Thanks for that guys, much appreciated!
I'd better do some attacking then, now I know the rules.
@EVERYONE:
You cant have more than +60/-60 cumulative bonuses.
For example, you can have +30, +20, +10, +10, -10. All together, no greater than +/-60 total to any rolls.
After some consideration and viewing how things are going, here a few adjustments and clarifications:
For Horde Size 20, +20 bonus
Horde Size 10, +10 bonus
I listed attack bonus damage based on initial starting size of hordes, but as you all go before them (in this battle) the bonus would have been lower as the magnitude decreased. To balance this and keep things fast, I want to keep all bonuses for the entire round. Meaning, the size bonus to hit hordes and the damage bonus from horde size will change each round, not after each post. I can't update after each post and people not knowing the bonus necessarily until I update magnitude could slow things to a crawl, otherwise I gotta go back and add DOS and possiby roll for additional hits etc etc... SO...Lets just make it a constant value for each round for both sides. OK????
So in our current battle, everyone's attack gets the +30 (ground level)size bonus to attack the horde and the horde gets the size bonus to their attack damage. In round 2 I'll adjust the magnitude and give everyone the new size bonus and roll attacks for the horde based on the size at the beginning of the round, while adjusting the dmg bonus (if any). Souund fair? If anyone objects and has a better solution I'm all eyes. Otherwise, I'll adjust peoples DOS in this instance (the 1st round) with the additiona size bonuses that everyone should get and give Deleos a +20 vs his horde size.
As for the issue of which hit might have had the higher penetration, Xing's rolling of a 1dX (depending on the number of hits) is fine. Vartas just took the damage, but you can roll or not under this rule for round 1. Up to you.
ALSO， I think in instances of large horde battles, I'll give you all a little more time to post before I post attacks, as your reduction of magnitude could mean less attacks in total vs the marines (Mostly applies to ranged attacks) In any case， Ｉ＇ｌｌ ｔｒｙ ｔｏ ｒｅｍａｉｎ ｆａｉｒ ａｎｄ ｏｂｊｅｃｔｉｖｅ， ｉｆ ａｎｙｏｎｅ
ｆｅｅｌｓ ｏｔｈｅｒｗｉｓｅ， ｐｌｅａｓｅ ｓｐｅａｋ ｕｐ． （Ｄｏｎｔ ｋｎｏｗ ｗｈｙ ｍｙ ｋｅｙｂｏａｒｄ ｓｗｉｔｃｈｅｄ ｔｏ ｔｈｉｓ ｆｏｎｔ， ｂｕｔ Ｉ＇ｍ ｏｎ ａ Ｃｈｉｎｅｓｅ ＰＣ ａｎｄ ｃａｎｔ ｓｅｅｍ ｔｏ ｃｈａｎｇｅ ｉｔ ｂａｃｋ．．．）
If you want to do it that way ok, but I have another possible way to do it.
(in case we are all before/after the creeps, otherwise I vote for simple ini-reorder by GM-fiat)
1. We players are responsible to calculate boni depending on current horde size (if we have the above formula it should be easy), so if vartas does 11 mag damage to a mag40 horde and I post after him (disregarding initiative for that matter) I will resolve my attack against a 40-11=29 horde.
2. If we all posted/you think enough time has passed you will resolve=bot any remaining player-actions, then you have the final magnitude of the enemy for attacking/morale checking/etc.
Additional things to speed things up:
..At the end of each post, the players should include something like this: Magnitude Damage done: X, Remaining Horde Magnitude: XX, ToHit= +Y to make it easier for follow-up posters.
..You could give us the soak (armor/toughness) of the horde, so we could self-check the number of hits we inflict. Works good in pathfidner games, and I think we are above metagaming (there is not much we could meta-game with that knowledge anyway) and would speed things up a lot.
Reasoning:
Hordes can do brutal damage to marines, because of the no parry/dodge thing, and the main survival tactic against them is to quickly reducing its magnitude to something about 20-30 so that the damage is not to high. And that would not be possible if we work with static magnitude sizes, even for one round.
Example: We are charged by a lot of 'nids in a open plain. Magnitude 40 Horde. The team inflicts 25 mag damage before they reach us at the end of the round and do damage: remaining magnitude = 15. In your case, they would deal something like 3d10+x damage to each of us. In my situation it would be only 2d10+x and maybe they would even break before reaching us. It is even more a difference if the mob has range weapons. Take the same example with Firewarriors. Your damage: 4 semi-auto salvos à 3d10+x, my damage: 1 semi-auto salvo à 2d10+x damage.
Each round is supposedly simultaneous so the magnitude change at the end of the round makes sense, particularly since magnitude can be an arbitrary value, especially when Regen is in play. You may wish to apply threat priority and displace hits where it would make sense.
Well now it gets metaphysical.
Why take an initiative order at all if everything is simultaneous? I think one round is a time slot of ~6-10s. Someone with higher initiative is able to react a bit faster than the others that's why his actions are resolved first. And if that action is shooting a heavy bolter into a mass of bodies that charge towards him, I think it is only logical that less enemies will reach and attack him later on in the round, isn't it?
Its the same as if you shoot at an individual ... if you kill him before he is able to act in the round, you would not resolve his (theoretical) action of that round, would you?
I can see the point you make ... firing a bolter is a full round, so every action the others may do happens while he still is firing into the crowd ... But that just makes things so much more complicated. He would not be able to fire his heavy bolter at melee range ... the mob will loose some members before reaching him, thus doing less damage, but maybe some members can throw a punch before getting mowed down, etc etc ... That's why pen&paper games have a initiative order and thus a discrete time instead of a continuous one. It makes things easier.
But if you guys concede in that point, I'm ok with it. It just does not feel appropriate for me that's all.
Rounds
A Round consists of every character participating in the
encounter taking one Turn each. It assumed that characters
act more or less simultaneously in an encounter, so a Round
is approximately five seconds long, regardless of how many
characters are involved.
That is where Varryl is getting the idea that we are all essentially simultaneous.
The only objection that I have to the changing of Magnitude at the end of each round is this: This is a two edged sword, isn't it? If their magnitude does not change, sure we get to keep the same bonuses for the purposes of attacking them, but would they not also get the damage and # of attacks of their higher magnitude?
That's exactly what I tried to show with reasoning above Ulrich. It makes a huge difference in the horde power and makes them potentially deadlier than a group of individual choas Marines...
Sure we keep the boni, but this does not translate to the hordes keeping their powerful attacks AND number of ranges attacks regardless on what we throw at them - at least for one round.
That's why hordes are typically made up of Troop Level NPCs. Higher level enemies have dangerous damage values and talents like lightning attack that make the horde mechanic devastating rather than making fodder somewhat of a threat.
Lightning attack is a full action and not combinable with charge, right? So they can't really use it on Round 1 unless we close the gap for them.
More generally though they might be interrupted mid attack as we have initiative but if we aim or do anything with the first half action other than attack they'd still land their first half action before our second occured. This would impact melee more than ranged though since a bullet in the air is a bullet in the air.
Initiative is reaction time and the difference of milliseconds afterall.
Apologies for the disjointed structure. Took six sittings to write this.
It is unfortunately a tricky one. Pbp means that we can't always act in initiative order without incurring large delays due to people's real lives. Our high level means that the tough hordes we need for a challenge will get very tough very quickly (particularly with no apothecary). I am inclined to agree with Deleos' idea of you attack against the magnitude that is left when you post, rather than your initiative. This does however leave the possibility of a horde being destroyed before an early initiative character can act, however I am sure we can fudge that with story.
However, I am also more than happy to use Bayou's suggestion as he has GMed us very well so far and can, I am sure cater for how quickly the hordes will become lethal.
I'd be willing to follow Deleos' example, it's a little more work on our part, but with 6 pcs, all experienced by now, I think we could handle it. I couldn't believe how dangerous things got, after round 1, some people could end up burning fate points if the onslaught continues as is. I know we are a high level and most have some forcefields, so it's got to be tougher or we're not being challenged. It's a difficult balance and our first horde encounter (I think.. Or at least mine since joining).... Then again, after 1 round, we pretty much destroyed the horde, and anything without regeneration or fearless talent would be running away with Brown stained pant bottoms. I'm willing to calculate stuff myself if we know the 'soak' which shouldn't be hard to give at our levels. I think we're also above metagaming. I like the threat level, just worried for our next encounter, gotta be some 'boss' around, hopefully the GM takes pity on the injured and we get some healing in one form or another.
Also, don't we have Dante the skittarri warrior here, I think he's been forgotten in this round, he needs to act too @GM.
Also, what do you all think of 1dmg dice rolled for our attacks from hordes... Could be better or worse.. I'm fine either way, but maybe we could roll them all for the GM in the case of multiple attacks? After we know our PR from shields and exact numbers of hits that land, so we could roll those too if/when necessary... Just a thought.
Thanks to everyone for the suggestions and input, it's important for me as GM to know what my players think and how to deal with new situations I've got little experience in. I like what Deleos suggested as well. I think I'd like to try that from now on.
On the multiple hits and which one is higher pen, thats from the Razor sharp talent and in the future I'll list which one in the rolls has that bonus, so you'll know and won't need to roll. It depends on DOS, so when I rolled 3 hits for each of you, you can see which hit has greater DOS, but I didn't specify, so I'll do that in the future to eliminate any confusion. As for number of dmg. dice, I could do more than one, one for each hit. Next time I'll try that if people want. **ANY THOUGHTS? One dmg dice or multiple? Its not hard for me to cut/paste and list more.
So, I'll list initial magnitude from now on and give the soak. Depending on initiative order, I'll roll for attacks and keep to our current initiative blocks, I think that is working well. Once people know the soak, they can determine magnitude reduction and list the final magnitude that is left. That means you gotta read each other's posts and give yourself the correct bonus for horde size. OK? I don't mind sharing some responsibility with you all and trust you all will be careful and diligent in giving the correct information, the people after you will depend on it. One mistake early on, could affect everyones rolls/bonuses after yours. I'll keep an eye out, always checking in here and reading updates, even if I'm not posting. So if I notice any mistakes or problems, I'll try to mention something earlier. Sound good?
Just to be clear:
1. Magnitude will not be static each round, it will change after each PCs actions.
2. I will give the TB/AP of all hordes, so you know what needs to be done to actually reduce magnitude size.
3. It's up to you to accurately give yourself the correct bonus based on the latest updated magnitude of the horde, you must read each others posts to be sure.
4. Horde attacks and bonus damage will also be affected by each players post, meaning if you reduce size, then less attacks/damage are possible.
5. Please list the current Horde size after your attacks in each round, put that towards the end of your post, so its easy for people to see and calculate bonuses and determine actions.
I know there was some debate and discussion on time of rounds and how things are resolved, but I was persuaded by how dangerous these hordes can be. I didn't even think about it until after I read your posts, particularly Ulrich, who needed to spend FP to heal. I actually didn't do as many attacks as possible, as they have "multiple weapons" trait and could get another hit in. I was also surprised that you all pretty much destroyed them in one round, Xing's attacks resolved in a way I didn't think possible, but makes sense. DOS on the hits makes a good roll on WS as good as a full auto burst from Vartas. If Vartas had the two weapon wielder and attacked with two of those puppies, I'd need a larger horde.
In any case, its a balance of my story, the pressure I want you to feel, the challenge and mystery, coupled with the onslaught of a new unknown enemy unlike your marines have ever encountered. I really think I've taken the fluff and created a unique story that is slowly unfolding as I had envisioned. To me, that is more important than the mechanics. But I need to make sure its enjoyable on the dice side for my players, hence my request for input. So thanks for the suggestions and we're going to try it the new way for round 2.
Someone mentioned the fact that they couldn't have lightning attacked b/c of range, that a good point that really isn't explained that well in the books, as when you're fighting a horde, its just assumed they are all around. It goes both ways, but b/c I'd allow you all to have your multiple attack actions without charging, I do the same for the horde.
It's hard to say how many rush specifically and how many are near you. If you do your lightning attack and waste 12 enemies, does that mean there had to be 12 enemies near you? Do you think you could feasible cut down 12 enemies in 1 round? 5 seconds for moving and swinging that many times? Not likely.
It's very abstract, but I try to be objective and allow you all the same benefits as the Horde. You can't specify attacks or choose targets in a horde, so maybe Vartas is blasting the closest ones to you all, meaning you'd need to charge and your hits may or may not all count if they're arent enough enemies near you, which is impossible to determine really. I'd like the keep things as they are now. Perhaps I'll give you all a round in the future of buffer, where maybe they are charging you or do a better job of describing how they came to be close enough to attack so quickly. These particular enemies don't do ranged attack and they can phase in and out of existence so I took some liberties and maybe didn't describe things as well as I could/should have in this particular instance. Normally a horde would be mixed with ranged and could attack while others are moving into melee position, but same as above, I allow you all to just assume they are there and in range for melee attacks.
I envision the HORDE attack rounds a little differently, more abstract and more story telling, but I see now in the 1st round how devastating they were. But I think overall it went well. I need to apply some pressure to you all and challenge you, as well as give you chances to shine.
AHHHHHH....forgetting the Tech-Priest with you guys again...Gotta remember him...
Ok, all updated. There are some choices to make, feel free to decide and or do something I might not have thought of. Good luck.
Reasonable solution Snowman - as expected if I may say so :-)
It really is a big recommendation for GMs to transfer as much work as possible - especially the paperwork. You already have the hardest job ;-)
Sounds like a good solution to me.
Concur.^
How many of us can't run right now?
Sounds good to me. I can run although I am not quick.
I'm pretty slow in this Terminator Armour, though we can use the Burst of Speed solo mode ability to go places slightly less slowly.
I am pretty fast with the jump pack, but splitting seems like a really bad idea, especially after that new message... But I am really occupied atm with a deadline on Friday, so no time for a lengthy post until Saturday. Bot me if necessary.
You can't run in Terminator or when heavily damaged.
Vargas would be at 10m a round
I figure between the two of us the horde will vaporize and if the boss shows I hVe Stoic Defense up my sleeve.
And by then you'd all be back. Hopefully.
I do not posses the demolition skill as of now - intend to take it sometimes.
Though a simple arm&apply of demolition would not need a roll.
I don't intend to blow a neat hole into something, apply it where it will cause most destruction, calculate the amount needed to open a door without causing to much destruction on the inside or use a charge such that something is toppling in "the right direction" - those would be things I would expect a demolition roll. Not in a simple apply-enable-takecover action.
Your call, if it does not set off because I forgot something - well I have my orders to follow the Ad-Mech ;-)
Demolition is required for their usage, timers and details are determined with DOS. It's also a roll because it can be opposed if someone tries to defuse. More than 3dof and it blows up in your face.
Ok. Thought a melta bomb as just another form of grenade - simple enough to use by nearly everyone. Standard tactic against armors is a jump pack assault marine to the top and setting a melta bomb on it.
Maybe I have a wrong image of the thing I am about to use?^^
Melta bombs are bombs, doing much more damage and penetration. Sounds like fun dropping bombs once you got the skill. If it's not available to you by now I'll make it available to you next time we spend xp.
Ok. I think it should be on the general advance by now so I should be able to take it. Did not thought I would really need it for simple dropping them on some guys and disengage but ... Well: "It's better to own something than to need it" ... Is a saying in my country ;-)
Meltabombs used in that fashion would have a preset timer of 10-15 seconds activated at a button press. A test would be needed to modify the timer and a disarm would simply be pass fail.
Then the timer and arming would have been done by someone... It's an advanced skill and opposable. Someone can arm it for you and preset the timer as you may not know what time you need before arming it that's dangerous but an option if you like. But someone, somewhere should roll demolition, either a brother or an npc at mission beginning.
On the other hand that sounds like a good team play opportunity: Pyros arms it, and I can place them with the aid of my jump pack anywhere. Then I can hit the timer or pyros remote-detonate it as soon as I am out of the radius (hopefully^^).
I will get basic demolition just in case - but my Int is not as high as that of Pyros so I will not reach his skills anytime soon.
Would that be a valid option, Bayou?
Yea. ^^
Great, he only understand binary -.-
That's gonna get difficult ^^
I see four options for Varryl's next action. Heal party, reinforce the pillars cover value, repair Lori or attempt to breach/cut through/force open the door.
Only the door would likely be completed before the enemy arrives.
Thoughts?
Dante hasn't spoken Gothic, doesn't mean he can't understand it. I meant to say shakes his hea9, not shares, as in he said yes to your question.
There isn't really anything to be used to fortify cover.