But a five-on-five he-saw-she-saw?
Although your team has a bear, their team has a zombiedrooling metrosexual, so...
I think the bear and metrosexual would have equal standing as witnesses in a court of law. I think I must remind Ransaq of his...special...friend. ::Points to Garroth:: You're not exactly orc-less over there.
Although a freak with a mask, a crazed half-orc, a wizened old wizard with a metrosexual following him around, a cute girl who wears Asmodeus undies under her white clothing, and a persistently scowling murder machine who happens to be called a Hellknight likely won't win out in a court of public opinion against your group over there.
@Marcelo I was waiting to see if Fate passed her save to decide where to move, but I'll just go ahead and move. You won't be hitting me though.
I didn't realize I could now move my own piece until just a few minutes ago.
While I agree with much you have posted (both about our intent and the gameplay in general), Ransaq, I disagree with your statement on readied actions.
The Rulebook states: The action occurs just before the action
that triggers it. If the triggered action is part of another
character’s activities, you interrupt the other character.
Assuming he is still capable of doing so, he continues
his actions once you complete your readied action. Your
initiative result changes. For the rest of the encounter,
your initiative result is the count on which you took the
readied action, and you act immediately ahead of the
character whose action triggered your readied action.
The Surprise round is still a combat round where things are resolved by initiative order, just a stunted one where only certain participants act. RAW you go immediately before Sarcon, now, unless DM-Kal states otherwise.
Edit: Pulled a jimibones just a minute ago, sorry! :p
Also, isn't Crystal on init count 21 in a normal round anyways? Shouldn't she be going first in the normal rounds anyways, or did I miss something?
I'm rather confused atm
I guess maybe you guys are right about initiative. Doesn't seem fair, but it looks like you guys are right.
If that's the case though then I should not have gotten my second spell off. But, if having to pick between getting the second spell off and interrupting Sarcon's action, I'd take the second spell.
Crystal is blind and stunned. Fate is not however, but she does need to make a will save.
I suspect someone may want to say "Good point, if he held his action, he shouldn't have gotten that second spell off", to which I have prepared a response.
I got to go before him either way, and the capability of my actions depended on his none what so ever (by that I mean, I didn't need him to use his action to come into range or anything). I misunderstood a rule, my bad. I believe I'll take the mulligan I gave out earlier, keeping my turn in initiative and allowing the orc to claim self defense.
After all, it's better to be on trial than dead.
I'm not going to make a fuss of it, as once again we were spoiling for a fight, but I think your allies should RP their reactions appropriately to seeing you attack us unprovoked, then, if that is the course you choose. You know, at least have an in-game reason to join you suddenly blasting us. For in this instance you really ARE attacking before he draws his weapon, therefore unprovoked. (Pre-emptive would be the military term, but your allies don't have the gifts of foresight that you do!)
Would I still be blind when you cast it again? I think the effect would end after my turn, which means I can see again but am stunned when you take the action again (assuming you preempt Sarcon). Doesn't much matter to me...I'm pretty sure I saved against that one.
Edit: Unprovoked, as in, not physically. We were surely jabbering at one another, but attacking over words seems like something a bad guy would do. :p
I just stumbled out of bed and hit the refresh key, could someone try explaining what is wrong like they would do it to a five year old? I am too groggy to understand it at the moment.
No, but I AM a diviner, and some of them already suspect you up to no-good.
No, Sarcon was right. Your immune to it since your already blinded from the first one. As to where exactly in the round it ends, I'll have to look that up, but I think you're right.
@Victor The short of it, you and Fate have to make another will save. Crystal And Sarcon are blind and stunned. You, Fate, and Marcello are up, but if you or Fate fail that save you will also be stunned and unable to take your actions.
Wait a bloody moment, I side with Sarcon here. Why he should get to redo it because it doesn't side to your favor?
@Sarcon It's still in my favor, regardless. And I don't think so buddy. Earlier, Fate made a mistake that had plenty of room to be straight up dice tampering. I didn't throw a fit. I let it go because it was likely an honest mistake. What, you think only the villians get mulligans? The problem is that it's not going your way, so you don't want to play fair. The GM can be the judge here, but your about to give me your gold either way.
@Marcello I did, I rolled a 1. Now that you mention it though, I just realized something. Crystals initiative was before mine, which means if the blindness went away at the end of her turn, she would be suseptable to the second casting. It doesn't matter since she saved. It's just something I didn't think about before.
No, but I AM a diviner, and some of them already suspect you up to no-good.
No, Sarcon was right. Your immune to it since your already blinded from the first one. As to where exactly in the round it ends, I'll have to look that up, but I think you're right.
I think I should clarify, that their RP'ed responses are a request for my entertainment only.
So, DM-Kal, here's the skinny:
1) Ransaq, due to an accidental rules miscue, is trying to change his declared action to something more favorable (in this case, pre-emptively striking). Sarcon respectfully (haha) disagrees with this and wants Ransaq's action to stick.
I made a mistake that I caught myself immediately because I realized I couldn't actually do that. You are trying to retcon a whole page worth of posts without the GM's go-ahead.
You can make all the accusations you want. The truth is, I made an honest mistake.
Besides, if I had been dice-tampering, why wouldn't I have just rolled a spellcraft check before my save? It's technically what I should have done anyways, but I forgot b/c I was trying to post quickly between classes.
Dice tampering because there was a low roll before her save that couldn't be used, meaning she could have saw a low roll, re-labled it, and tried again. I didn't throw a fit, I figured it an honest mistake and let it go. Deciding to go before you or hold an action to go before you is a pretty stupid thing to throw a fit about, especially when compared to this prior event.
I understand, it's pvp, you don't want to let people fix mistakes, but it's gotta be fair. Call it even from earlier and quit whining.
I already told the GM in the villain thread hours ago that I'm the one that screwed up, and if he wants me to use that roll, I will make no argument.
My action doesn't change at all, just the time I use it. I feel I should be able to change it from before Sarcon to before Sarcon, not that big of a deal.
Fate, you didn't catch yourself immediately, you caught yourself after I caught you. I'm not making accusations, I'm saying I also made an honest mistake. And I have no idea where your getting this crap claim that I want to retcon a whole page over it. Absolutely nothing has happened since I made the mistake other than my own actions.
And Fate, how do I KNOW it was an honest mistake anyway? What, you think I owe it to you to believe you, but you do not owe me the same courtesy? I did give you that courtesy, and now I expect it back, except I wasn't capable of dice tampering, I merely wish to take my action less than a second from when I did, which no one in game could have stopped.
If you wanna use the lower roll and fail your save, I'd be happy to take the lower spot in initiative. We could just ignore all the rounds actions and start at the top of initiative with you, crystal, and sarcon blinded and stunned for the duration I already rolled. I rolled a 1 mind you. I don't think you were trying to cheat, but neither am I. but if you'd like to settle it that way, it sounds fair enough to me.
I have no idea what you are talking about. I posted that I was using misfortune, then after I went to go double check the ability, I posted again retracting my action. You didn't "catch" anything.
Also, I discovered I was literally incapable of doing the action I thought I could do and then didn't do it. You discovered that the action you took wasn't as ideal as you would have liked, and want to retcon it. It's quite a difference.
@Sarcon I don't get where you keep thinking I did something that turned out to not work for me. No new factor has entered the equation. Whether I go before you, or I go before you, my actions will be the same. Your stunned either way, and I get 2 actions to kill you with before you are not stunned, regardless. The issue is that you thought you were gonna come in here and wreck shop, and now yur grasping at anything to stay afloat, not caring at all to treat others as they've treated your team. Whatever though man, I don't think I care as much as you do. Only the flash can save you now.
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I think I'm just starting to catch up to you guys....
If Ransaq did indeed hold his action till Sarcon charged before doing anything, then he would be just before Sarcon, putting him under Sanza but over Sarcon.
Meaning that after the Surprise round, he wouldn't be able to move and do the Color Spray again, but he would instead just be standing there... With a Sarcon in front of him and none of us Color spray'ed because Sarcon would be standing in the middle of their team (If we look at the Roll20 Map)
Sorry for being a slowpoke, now I get why there is so much discussion.
@Fate It doesn't matter, the fact is you saw the roll that should have been your save, then negated it by claiming it to be something else. You can take it back all you want, you still got that low roll out of the way. You saying sorry even 1 second later doesn't change that.
I don't care though, don't even worry about it. You can cheat and cry all you wan't and I'll still kill you, but now I'm going to cut your head off and take it with me. Conversation over, omit my round one actions, I'll take lower initiative.
Yur right Marcello, I didn't realize that's how the rule worked at the time or I wouldn't have held my action.
Crystal and Sarcon are still Stunned though, and Fate probably will be too when I get done talking to the GM
You seem to be the angry one here.
The roll isn't out of the way, and I most certainly have not cheated, no matter how vehemently you may accuse me. Notice I haven't done anything since then. I've been waiting for DM-Kal's ruling, as you should be doing about trying to retcon your actions.
You can see my post in the villains thread hours ago, before this conversation about your action even started, in which I said I screwed up, and I will accept whatever Kal rules.
Yur right, I am angry. I'm not being treated the same way I've treated you.
And what I mean by out of the way... If you go to make a save, preview a roll, decide not to post it, come back later and post a new roll, it will be the same roll as before. It sticks so you can't cheat. What you CAN do when you see a low roll is use it for something else and make a new roll for your save below it, which would also be cheating, and from my point of view it looks like you did exactly that. But I didn't accuse you. I knew the possibility of it, but I just dropped it in assumption that it was an honest mistake. But now when I make an honest mistake, the same favor is NOT returned. And my decision certainly was an obvious mistake. If I was going before Sarcon either way, why would I give up my place in initiative when it was practically allowing me to get 2 spells off in a row? I'll tell you why, and it has nothing to do with things not working out for me, because they DID work out for me. Its because I misunderstood the rule. You think I'm too dumb to realize that's a bad decision? I misunderstood the rule!
Also, I didn't take it upon myself to retcon anything. I thought it was my turn because I misunderstood the rule. That's why I went ahead and went, I thought it was my turn. It wasn't until like an hour ago I realized how it actually worked, at which point I requested a muligan like the one I let go earlier with you!
Like I said though, whatever.
Fate, Wintrish and I took a little chat and decided to extend the same courtesy towards you. Realizing it would be unfair to press you on such a minor thing. So, your ability to see be forewarned did indeed kick in and you blasted first.
Oh no, he never pulled any knives. If you did not use your time on readying an action but instead pre-emptily strike Sarcon then he was about to do so but never did so successfully. It never became his turn after all, there is no knives on the ground, there is no warning. There is only you blasting the group due to a magical hunch.
If there was to be a knife on the ground, he would have had to have acted first. And then you would be under Sanza in your initiative pass.
Even with a readied action, unless the triggering condition was AFTER he was done pulling his weapon, then the spell goes off before the action (and in this case prevents the action due to the stun).
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Okay, can I just try and say how I understood all of this?
So Sarcon prepares to charge, with a knife he has.
Before he charge, Ransaq gets a "Feeling" (From his Class) that he is going to get attacked.
Before the Attack, and before Sarcon Charges, Ransaq moves up and Color Spray all of us, therefore eliminating the Charge (And Knife pulling) Sarcon was going to do.
So Sarcon never get to pull his knife or charge, because Ransaq goes before that happens... Am I correct here?
BECAUSE! After that, he fires a second Color Spray, just to make sure he get everyone and then he runs behind Patrice... Is this what we are going for?
Thank you Victor, but I'm not so certain I care anymore. I got upset because I felt I was not being treated with the same good spirit I had given, but its actually to my greater advantage for Fate to be stunned and I to be lower in initiative. I was willing to overlook that in assumption that the same good spirit would be returned, but it wasn't and now I think I'd rather take it as they've requested. Fate should be blind and stunned, and I will take the lower initiative. I've sent the GM a message and await his response.
Thank you for your understanding though
No no, we insist. You are no longer forced to ask if we will extend the same courtesy upon you, we're forcing it upon you now. We might extend the courtesy once but we will not allow you to JUST switch back because you realize that you are in trouble.
You f@%#ed up twice, we allowed you to redeem the first but we're not alright with the fact that you wish to switch back because it is going to damage your case when the guards gets here. You shot first and you shot twice.
I realize it might look like I'm just trying to be difficult now, and that sucks cuz I'm not. I've just already made up my mind, posted it above, and messaged the GM my case.
Ah, I see. Your basically accusing me of the same thing they were, that I realized I screwed up and would like to retcon. Whatever dude, I don't make plans, I stack up options. You guys keep thinking you can stick me with a disadvantage, but I'd bet a paycheck I'll come out on top either way, whether I keep my initiative or not.
I know I'm tired of being irritated at people I play game with for fun though. I've sent the GM my case and I stand by it now.
Ok, I stated the RAW, then posted that it was up to DM-Kal in my eyes, as far as the initiative thing goes. I wake up to this!?
I really don't care about the initiative, to be honest. If it was my game and you were fighting a monster, I would probably let you retcon the action once you understood the implication of it, so I don't see how this is much different. However, it IS PvP, and I can't speak for my companions and their views of the matter.
What I do have a gripe with is your insistence that Fate now be stunned and blind, as well. I understand the meat of your concern, but in my 'panic' I called for her misfortune ability, which she then proceeded to use, then rolled her own save. I won't be so snide as to say the possibility of her switching things around doesn't exist, but her intent was pretty clear, at least to me. However, if we're gonna go with a 'dice rolls in order' tsking, then my Spellcraft check (as well as Fate's) should have come before our Will save. So technically I would have flubbed the Spellcraft and Saved vs the spell, and Fate would have maybe Spellcrafted appropriately, then Saved vs the spell.
So, regardless of when you are going again (high 20 or high 14), Fate and I would be in the clear for the first Color Spray (and I for the second one, if you got it off). I'm wanting things to just happen as noted in the gameplay, where I am blind and stunned and she saved, as that is the effect based on the intent of our dice-rolling. I think that is fair, since you are interpreting it (perhaps correctly) as she should have used her first roll, and I am interpreting it (also perhaps correctly) as though our dice rolls should have resolved our actions in order of occurrence.
So, net effect, Sarcon was going to draw his weapon, you might or might not have pre-empted him, proceeded to stun-lock the two main antagonists, and now it is round 1 and we are waiting on a ruling for the initiative. Agreed?
I believe extending the benefit of the doubt to Fate is appropriate. I believe allowing someone to change the precise nature of their action due to a rules clarification before anyone else has taken a turn is also acceptable. And I think you all know this. The only reason there's a conflict here is because of the widespread lawyering that has broken out. Lest you all forget, I am the arbiter of the rules in this game.
What should have happened:
"Fate, it looks like your original roll was a 7, which would have failed as your Will save."
"Oh, you're right. It was an honest mistake, but I'll take whatever the DM rules."
"I'm sure it was, but yes, let's see what the DM has to say."
And that actually isn't too far from what happened.
But then what should have happened:
"Ransaq, it actually wouldn't be your turn since you delayed until after Sarcon. Also, Sarcon's weapon wouldn't yet be drawn."
"You're right. Well in that case, I'd prefer to just take my action and keep my initiative order."
"Certainly Ransaq, glad we could help you with your understanding of the rules. But that will look like an unprovoked attack which may have consequences."
"You're right. Let's see what the DM has to say about this."
I would prefer in the future that you all work together to do what makes the most sense and to create the best player experience for everyone. Let Fate have her roll. Tell Ransaq about the rules and let him have his choice. Stop being a stickler about everything, stop acting hostile in the discussion thread, stop acting like disagreeing with you is absurd, and start working together to weave an epic story of heroic (and villainous) struggle over the City. Help each other become better players, make better choices, and figure things out. Don't act like it's your game that they are ruining. Although you guys are technically in combat against one another, you're in the same game, and ultimately on the same team. Let's not forget that, alright?
I don't want to have to give another warning, and I don't want to have to start kicking people. So let's just all try to have some fun.
As for actual rulings, Ransaq is a twitchy wizard/rogue, Sarcon starts to pull a knife, Ransaq has a premonition and inkjets the lot of them, then it's Ransaq's turn again (since he and Fate both got 20 on init, but Ransaq's bonus is higher--correct me if I'm wrong on that).
The heroes may do as they please, but character-knowledge-wise, I certainly couldn't blame them for attacking Ransaq or simply delaying, or even fetching the town guard. Yes, they know you're a diviner, but they also know you're a bit out of yonder gourd. And actually only two out of the other four know you're a diviner in the first place.
So, net effect, everything after Ransaq's second color spray may be redone. I think we're still waiting on saves from Marcello? Then it should be Fate up (if she's still un-stunned).
I apologize for my part in that mess.
You are correct on the initiative part, as far as I know.
If Ransaq goes with blasting again (which it seems as though he has or that is what you are ruling), Marcello should be out of the AOE (Ransaq himself only called for saves from me, Sarcon, Fate, and Victor).
Ahhhh....
This is unfortunate.... Very unfortunate. You can't leave over minor things such as this Sarcon.
Edit: Well, I am sticking to this game to the bitter end.
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... I think we're still waiting on saves from Marcello?
Actually... I was never in line of effect from the Color Spray, any of them, so I don't really have anything to roll saves from, or am I misunderstanding something about our positioning? (Looking at the Roll20 Map)
Edit: Everyone can move everyone on the Roll20 Map?
Edit 2: Sanza is stabbing me in the back! >_>
@Crystal Your teams stance appears to be that you can't call your own mistakes and fix them, but you can call the other teams, which means it doesn't matter if you messed up your roll because you cant call it, and it does matter if fate did because I can call it.
When I just rolled with Fates mishap, I felt on friendlier terms, but it is clear now that Sarcon and Fate want to use anything they can against me. I suppose I will treat your team the same way then. If we are allowed to benifit from our mistakes then I'm going to start making them all the time. She hasnt yet acted, theres no retconing any of her actions. She needs to take the roll that was meant for her save. And as I said, like I can not fix my own mistake if it were to benefit me, neither can you.
And the DC of the save was higher than 14, so she failed.
I was happy to have done things that way too, but Fate and Sarcon threw a fit