Reign of Winter (Inactive)

Game Master Just a Mort

That was previous round, on enlarge issue. You were already large, But yeah I'm having really serious misgivings on whether to allow obs mist in combat with all those implications in place...

Do remember I have limited powers of changing the module since I do not wish to.

don't worry about the mist, they won't be shooting into it for long, they will have bigger or should I say 'enlarged' problems to worry about ;)

I am actually wondering about Ziva's actions. I could move her out of the fog, but these rangers have FE human. Which could get painful. Do it anyway? Suggestions?

@Einar: I didn't mean that you would have told Crummock where they were (I took it as given that you did not; it was more for the benefit of, say, Ziva :-)

Think about it this way. If you say standing at the edge of the mist lets you see all the way beyond, so you can shoot a bow without penalty, it'd be giving 50% miss chance for those firing back at the square which IMO is too powerful for a level 1 spell that you can easily get a wand off...

And you're taking 20% miss chance from concealment for standing at the edge of a mist. The last time I heard, blur, a spell that gave 20% concealment to a target was a level 2 spell. And it does not give concealment to an entire party.

You are taking 20% concealment if you are giving them 50%. If you don't want a miss chance, it is only giving you 20% concealment.

The mist is stationary and CAN get in your own team's way. Blur doesn't do that. Since it is stationary, the opponent can find ways to use it against you -- at which point the caster has to decide if it is worth a standard action to dismiss it.

We do not have anything like my bard that would allow us to freely see through the mist.

What I have done is take away their ranged advantages. Seems to me that is just smart.

The more problematic part is what if you're in a dungeon, and you use obscuring mist to block all spellcasting. Can't move past obscuring mist, because, you know, an enlarged Einar is blocking the way.

Or a case of bbeg's being totally unable to use any spells because they need to see to cast. Witches are not particularly known for serious blasting.

YY

XX
EZ

Lets say in a 10 ft wide, 10 ft high corridor. XX and YY are enemies. Einar and Ziva block the edge of obscuring mist by standing there. They can see YY perfectly, YY cannot use any single target spells on them. XX takes 20% concealment hitting in, YY 50% if ranged attacks are used. E and Z can hit XX without penalty. A level 1 spell basically gave the whole party total concealment, which I can't breach.

Balance issue if you get my drift.

You mean those witches that get Blindness/Deafness on their spell list along with things like Burning Hands, Glitterdust, summon swarm and others? Anything that can be cast using line of effect is not stopped by Obscuring Mist or Fog Cloud.

At the level we are now at, I would expect the witches to Dispel Magic, Lightning Bolt, Stinking Cloud or Sleet Storm us. Those are just the spells from CRB that witches get. Note that I will not get any of those options until 6th level, and at that level I will only be able to prepare a single spell.

It isn't even like I sprung this suddenly on you. I mentioned how it would have shut down the goblin archers when mentioning spell options. Note how no one was excited by this?

BTW, your example is wrong. YY would have the same 20% miss chance that XX has. They are only dealing with 5' of mist.

This is the first time EVER that I've actually been able to pull off a good use of Obscuring Mist. I've got a character named Mist who hasn't had a chance to do this yet. I was actually expecting it would be with my Bard (who doesn't even get that spell on his spell list) but prepared for the possibility here.

I'm out of scrolls of Obscuring Mist. Why don't you take at least a day to think about the spell. Look at the limitations. Maybe even post in advice about how people defend against this type of stuff. I really feel like you are blowing this way out of proportion -- especially given some of the tactics that some of the NPCs used.

Burning hands, not possible(literally). Dispel magic, Summon swarm, Lightning bolt, stinking cloud,glitterdust, nada. I'm serious!

I mean I could give them lessons in spell preparations but that's not the point.

If YY can see, then at least its not so bad. I was giving them the full total concealment, and Einar none on XX and YY, though there are issues if you cast obscuring mist indoors because it will totally shutdown a caster BBEG. And trivalize certain encounters. Though I mean what the designers were thinking off on single caster BBEGs is WTF.

Yeah I think I need to think about the spell.

Edited post. I do have some stuff, but I still need to determine where the party is before I can spamn it.

More obscuring mist business...

Yeah, but by the same token, Silence also shuts down casters (especially when used indoors!) pretty effectively (and it is a tactic I have used *frequently* when I knew there was a BBEG caster battle in my immediate future).

It is actually pretty rare for casters to take Silent Spell, after all...

Silence is actually fine. Because you'll want to use a lv 2 spell slot to do it, and the full round casting time (unless you make an oil of silence). Obs mist is also min/lv compare to silence round/lv. Its the idea of obscuring mist wands that's getting on me, actually. I find its too powerful for a level 1 spell.

Heh. Well, in 3.5, Silence was a minutes/level spell - so you could get up to a *lot* of shenanigans with it...

Also, if you need more than a few rounds to deal with a caster, then you have a problem.

To be honest, I never played 3.5.

True, but compare a level 2 spell as rounds/level, 1 round casting time and a level 1 spell with min per level.

Obs mist requires a caster to be next to you to function. Or find a way to dispel it. Either way, should you be trading off a level 1 spell with a higher level one, you've wasted a turn off the caster with minimum expenditure of a wand charge(possibly?)

Silence requires the caster to be away from you, to function.

Sample BBEG spell list:

BBEG Spells Prepared (CL ??; concentration +??)
3rd—single target spell, defensive buff, single target melee touch spell,
2nd—single target spell, long duration defensive buff, single target save or suck, multi targetted save or suck
1st—burning hands , single target spell, long duration defensive buff, single target range touch spell.

So assuming an unchanged spell list, I have a grand total of 1 spell I can actually use on the party(that requires me to be within 15 ft) once obscuring mist is up.

Wuh?

And banning obscuring mist gives us a total of 0 ways to handle the last couple of archer fights. Most of the recent archer fights have dropped at least one party member and all of them burn through our healing. All of them consist of multiple ranged enemies at some distance from us (ie beyond charge range) and with no appropriate cover. You yourself stated you didn't want Ziva to move outside the mist - yet if the must hadn't been cast I'd probably be dead about now.

I don't see the issues with mist - when invisibility is screwing over combat even more, slowing it down (since we have to ready actions) or leaving us with limited to no real counter play.

If you want to ban Mist then fine, but it means you are going to have to manually adjust the written encounters - since I guarentee the encounters were not written to keep in mind a GM arbitrary banning spells he hates - otherwise you are just stripping viable confer play the designers assumed PC's would have access to.

I'll be back ready to post in around 14-15 hours approx.

To be fair, I don't think it is a matter of us trying to shut down casters with this spell - as Mr Whiskers pointed out, he has had a couple of scrolls (not prepared spells), for use in emergencies.

We are not a ranged-heavy party, so when we are being thoroughly rogered by a bunch of archers, the smart thing to do *is* to give us some breathing room.

Also, at higher levels, casters *will* have ways to deal with it - such as flame-based effects, Dispel Magic, or Gust of Wind.

Gust of wind is not on the witch spell list. And being Reign of Winter its witch, witch and more witch. And if I run the mod with unchanged spell list and tactics - there's really very little I can do about the mist - look at the sample spell list above.

Fire is not really something that will come up regularly, due to the ice theme of the AP.

I know its technically my turn, but yeah I'm trying to sort out mist problems first.

The quickling was invisible. But the moment he started his spring attack chain, he became visible, and I did bot your attacks on him etc. When he stops moving he becomes invisible again, but that's the way life is.

Yeah I'll leave the spell as it is. I may tweak a few things(for casters)that would negate/clear obs mist(if I feel its necessary), but that'd be only for a few turns at most. And since you say that caster fights don't last that long, it should be sufficient.

didn't think about the magic arrows, should we give those to Nadya?

Since she is the main archer in the group, I would say yes. Give Nadya the magic arrows.

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So before I pick my next set of spells, I've some questions on how Disguise Other would work.

Assuming I use it to create a disguise, does that make it a non-magical disguise as per skill only with a +10 to the roll? Or is it still a spell effect with all that carries with it -- detect magic showing it exists, will saves, etc.

I can see arguments for either way, which is why I wanted to ask about it before picking what spells I learn at 5th level.

One of my spells learned is going to be See Invisibility just because of how often we already have hit invisible creatures. It is also going to be one of my big expenses as I create scrolls of the spell.

The other spell is still to be determined. My current contenders include:
Cat's Grace: +6* to Dex for short duration.
Invisibility: Sneak past the guards instead of trying to disguise ourselves. We do currently have a few potions of this on each of us.
Bull's Strength: +6* to Strength for short duration.
Summon Monster II: Summon Elementals for miscellaneous tasks.
Disguise Other: Allows me to disguise part of the group. Usefulness depends on if the group is planning to utilize this method and how the GM rules the spell works.

* My archetype allows me to increase the attribute bonus from any transmutation spell by +2.

Ill tell you invis won't work because the place is patrolled constantly, and you need about an hour to get where you're going. You need something more permanent then invis. It'd be more like a disguise thing.

If you want to slip a party around, what you're looking for is invisibility sphere as opposed to individual invis castings but even so, it won't last long enough.

The rest of the buffs are all fine to me, but check who has what stuff in terms of belts of giant strength - I think Ziva + Einar both have it, so they'll just get +4 bonus since it doesn't stack.

I'd actually have recommended heavier armor for Nadya, since her max dex bonus is only 3, rangers do get medium armor proficiency, and can even sleep in medium armor without penalty (yay endurance).

Both Nadya and Crummock should get better armor!

The point about stacking is a good one. It makes Cat's grace look that much better since it also gives Einar a bonus to Disable Device skill.

I can make Disguise Other last an hour next level, so that spell seems like a good choice if the group is willing to go that direction.

We are going to need to wrk as a group, which is why I'm asking for opinions of the other players. I don't want to waste a spell choice on a spell that will not work for the group.

Crummock's ultimate armor is mage armor. He's working off his massive cha bonus of +6 for armor.

Geist also doesn't have armor. *growly noise*

Disguise other works fine. You'll need to decide what you want to disguise as, though.

Ringerr can get you into White Throne, but there will be skill checks involved. You have a lot of people to cover if you're doing the magic route, but I'll just bypass the skill checks, since its considered the price paid.

@GM Mort: Geist doesn't have armor, because we haven't been anywhere that it could be reasonably expected that a suit of armor sized for a medium tiger could be found - it is on my shopping list for when we arrive in Whitethrone.

At present, Crummock is quite happy with his leather armor (since it allows him to use his maximum Cha bonus, at present). Eventually, I will want Dark Leaf Cloth Quilted Cloth Armor, though ;-)

Re: Using skills, if necessary, when we hit 5th, I will try to take Bluff/Intimidate, which should help.

Edit: Ninja'ed by Crummock.

I will keep the comment about Harimaki having no Max Dex bonus. He already had Darkleaf on his list, so cut those remarks.

Mr. Whiskers would be willing to cast Mage Armor if given the Runestone of Power to power it; 2K for four (soon to be five) hours of protection.

As for using spending spells, I couldn't cover the whole group. It would require a Sorcerer for that. I could make Einar look like an Orc and Mr. Whiskers a Mite. I would say goblin, except he doesn't speak that language. That would take care of the two most recognizable people in the group, but the mantis would still stick out.

Still waiting for comments from the other players about what direction they want to go.

Shui would have had armor, if you had asked. Didn't see you ask, though. But that's not really of an issue, since I haven't been wailing on Geist much.

He was probably afraid she would ask for Geist's pelt. :)

Oh ya, Geist IS white. At least well, Shui has a pelt so she hasn't been looking too covetously at other pelts...

so do we think that Einar really needs a costume? I assumed that 'demonic' would be just as acceptable as 'ogreish'

Actually I'm thinking of something funnier. But nevermind. Won't spoil the surprise when it comes. If you want, Einar, you could always rawr at them...Crummock only has +3 more then you when it comes to rawring...

Or offer to pay off the mans debt? =) But that must be done in in the gameplay thread.

For Non violent solutions. Of course, opening a can of murderhobo also works =)

Again, its your CLW wand.

I was thinking about a scene from one of my favorite movies of all times, I'm going to go post in the other game and then come back, if crummock hasn't posted by then I will give something 'different' a try ;)

To be honest, it wouldn't really do him much good. What is DD to a fisherman? Not to mention since no spellcraft = never figured out what that stone really was, in the first place.

lol its fine. It just hits me in the heart a little more because I have like a cool stone IRL that I feel happy about and would feel sad if I gave it up to pay someone for a service I otherwise couldn't afford :(

Please carry on, its just an OOC reaction and I'm not intentionally trying to be difficult.

ok, I gotta go to bed, It's Einars intention to tell Barett who this guy is and what he will do if he ever comes back. Then that Barett can keep the 100 gp if he takes Marcian blind-folded down the river and dump him far enough that he will never come back. He will had Barett a knife in case Marcian gives him trouble then he will tie large rocks to Barett's feet. He will also spell it out for Barett in case he's a little dim, that Einar only promised that he/we wouldn't kill Barett, not that no one else wouldn't... I expect it to end something like this

I think you meant to say you would tie rocks around Marcian's legs. Barett is the fisherman you rescued, Marcian is the 'guard' boss.

You could just directly tell the group something like "I don't trust him. I think we should kill him."

Yeah but isn't Mr Whiskers the only one that knows he was only being half truthful about leaving? Or did you relay that back to us?

My reading is that both Crummock and Mr. Whiskers knows Marcial isn't being totally truthful. There is plenty of reason not to trust him anyways, but they are the only two who have a reason based on what was said.

Mr. Whiskers wouldn't have said anything yet, but will as soon as there is an opportunity to do so where the prisoner can't overhear.

I know a guy reference.

Ringerr has an info dump for you, this guy's independent contact - you would need to buy information out of him. Think of it like an effect of a commune spell, except you pay for questions asked.

Extended lunch later so no posts during me lunch break.

Also, try not to have NPCs make choices for you, guys? I like giving players free will...and not being an NPC show.

I think you meant to say you would tie rocks around Marcian's legs. Barett is the fisherman you rescued, Marcian is the 'guard' boss.

You could just directly tell the group something like "I don't trust him. I think we should kill him."

yep your right, I mixed the names up, that's what I get for posting when I should be sleeping ;)

Einar told Marcian if he would give them the information he would put him on a boat. That way we could barter his life for information. My assumption is that the fisherman in the boat would kill him instead of taking them far down river.

Also, try not to have NPCs make choices for you, guys? I like giving players free will...and not being an NPC show.

Would putting Marcian at the 'mercy' of Ringerr on a boat be to much of an 'NPC Show'?

I don't think Marcian will get on that boat.

Essentially you have a choice:

Information and letting him go.

Or

Killing him, and you don't get to see his contact.

Or - that's more in the realm of player creativity, if you can manage to get him to show you his contact, and manage to kill him after.

To be honest as a GM, I don't really see how to accomplish that, but maybe you can think of some things that will surprise me - and I'll allow that.

Ringerr has sufficient information for you to proceed should you choose to do so. Its whether you want extras or not.

the third option is torture, and Einar would do it if the team doesn't stop him.

Also, do you think they would mind a 'blood eagle' as the death sentence?

No use. You'll need to bring him alive, or his contact won't show. You know, thieves guild secrecy and all that.

so there is no way to get a name?

Name is given. Contact won't speak to you. Lol.

I decided my last post was a little strong so I deleted it, I want to get the opinion of the team, felt like I was lone-rangering it too much. I'm at work so will post later, thanks

I sick

I don't anticipate anything lethal but I deteriorated throughout today and now I'm p much bedridden. Plz give me a grace period or a bot until I get vertical :(

Get well, Ziva!

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Mr. Whiskers would not allow torture. It is evil.

He would allow an execution, especially given Ringerr's statements about extorting the village. Right now, I don't see anything that would make Mr. Whiskers think Marcian even sees anything wrong with what he has done. Giving him a second chance would only do harm.